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Australian critters

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  • Tony Long
    Dominik Do you also have the aboriginal names for the critters - especially important if you want to get the python right. You may not be able to avoid the
    Message 1 of 15 , Mar 5, 2002
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      Dominik

      Do you also have the aboriginal names for the critters - especially
      important if you want to get the python right. You may not be able to avoid
      the Linnaean binomials completely, even if you have to put them in
      translator's square brackets. Oz animal names vary from state to state and
      there are few 'absolute solutions'.

      Back to you later today - must teach. How much time do you have and how
      interested are you in getting it 100% right? I have the contacts, but it
      takes time....

      Tony
    • Matej Klimes
      Hi Dominik, What book is it? Problem is that many of the Australian fauna and flora items simply do not have Czech equivalent - because they re so far away
      Message 2 of 15 , Mar 5, 2002
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        Hi Dominik,

        What book is it?

        Problem is that many of the Australian fauna and flora items simply do not
        have Czech equivalent - because they're so far away from anything anywhere
        else on Earth, plus there hasn't beem many Czech explorers in the back o'
        Bourke down under, so to speak......

        And aboriginal names - Czech doesn't even have a name for aborigines, apart
        from "puvodni obyvatele Australie", let alone for their animal and food
        names - even English is clumsy at that.......

        I apologize if I'm not being of much help, but I'll be happy to let you
        borrow my Australian bookshelve, particularly Songlines by Bruce Chatwin
        (not that you'll find many Czech words in it.....), or put you in touch with
        some Ozzie friends who might be of assistance (again, into English - at
        best....).

        Wasn't yamstick something aboriginals chewed on? Would have to check.....

        G'day, mate

        Matej



        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Dominik Lukes <dlukes@...>
        To: Czechlist@yahoogroups. Com <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, March 04, 2002 11:28 PM
        Subject: [Czechlist] Australian critters


        > Hi all,
        >
        > as I've mentioned, I'm translating Lakoff's book a large portion of which
        is
        > devoted to an Aboriginal system of classification. I'd welcome any
        > suggestions how to translate the following. I suspect, he sometimes uses
        US
        > equivalents. I want to stay away from the latin equivalents.
        >
        > stone fish (HaisHod have tropicka ryba Synanceja verrucosa)
        > garfish (HaisHod have jehlice rohozuba)
        > stinging nettle vine
        > stinging trees (Dendrocnide)
        > hairy mary grub
        > rainbow snake
        > spangled drongo (Dircrurus bracteatus)
        > chicken snake (had kurodav?)
        > water python (krajta vodni?)
        >
        > I'd also appreciate any suggestions on how to translate 'yamstick' - so
        far,
        > what I have is 'podpora na pnouci se nate sladkych brambor' - not the most
        > elegant translation, I admitt.
        >
        > Thanks. I will compile whatever results I get.
        >
        > Dominik
        >
        > ________________________
        > Dominik Lukes
        > http://www.bohemica.com
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > Czechlist: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist
        > Post message: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Matej Klimes
        ... Isn t that the ugly camouflaged bugger that stings you when you step on it? Althought the Australian version is deadlier and different from the others, I
        Message 3 of 15 , Mar 6, 2002
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          On second thought, not that I'm an expert on wildlife:

          >
          > stone fish (HaisHod have tropicka ryba Synanceja verrucosa)

          Isn't that the ugly camouflaged bugger that stings you when you step on it?
          Althought the Australian version is deadlier and different from the others,
          I think they have a Czech name ???

          > garfish (HaisHod have jehlice rohozuba)
          > stinging nettle vine

          could be something like popinave koprivy???

          > stinging trees (Dendrocnide)
          > hairy mary grub

          Not sure if Aussie or AM, but grub is often used to mean food in Aussie, and
          larvae are (were) often food anong Aborigines, which may be a clue.....


          > rainbow snake
          > spangled drongo (Dircrurus bracteatus)
          > chicken snake (had kurodav?)
          > water python (krajta vodni?)

          Isn't Python hroznys????


          >
          > I'd also appreciate any suggestions on how to translate 'yamstick' - so
          far,
          > what I have is 'podpora na pnouci se nate sladkych brambor' - not the most
          > elegant translation, I admitt.
          >
          > Thanks. I will compile whatever results I get.
          >
          > Dominik
          >
          > ________________________
          > Dominik Lukes
          > http://www.bohemica.com
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > Czechlist: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist
          > Post message: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
        • Tony Long
          Dominik I ve just spent a long and unproductive couple of hours with my library - the kind you get by editing wildlife encyclopaedias and writing fish books -
          Message 4 of 15 , Mar 6, 2002
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            Dominik

            I've just spent a long and unproductive couple of hours with my library -
            the kind you get by editing wildlife encyclopaedias and writing fish books -
            and I've come to the conclusion that you need Australians on this. Google
            your way into the CSIRO or some other Australian wildlife organisation and
            get the binomials, then bother the museums of Prague or Brno for acceptable
            Czech names. Synonyms might also do it 'ugly warty bastard that lurks in the
            coral and kills yer' might do for stonefish, as already suggested.

            The problem is indeed one of classification. When the whites colonised Oz,
            they either pinched animal names from the locals (budgerigar = (roughly)
            'tasty little snack'), or imposed European names, often highly localised and
            idiomatic, on critters superficially similar to Eurospecies: thus the -
            allegedly extinct - Tasmanian wolf is a marsupial and farther, taxonomically
            speaking, from a wolf than I am. The gar is a classic example: starting for
            the sea fish mentioned below, the name was given to a largely freshwater and
            superficially similar group from the US, and now ichthyologists use 'gar'
            for the US lot and 'needlefish' for the European saltwater gars - while we
            of the sea still keep calling a gar a gar. But when we got exported to Oz
            (lots of Kent and Sussex did) we probably offloaded the name onto the
            nearest thin fish with a spiky nose, utterly unrelated to our gars in
            technical terms (I've a feeling it's one of the pipefishes, but can't
            confirm). Many, many more examples exist. If you're not Oz, then a rainbow
            snake is exclusive to America, a.t.d.

            Jan Jelinek's works (The Great Art of the Early Australians, etc) might also
            start a useful trail.

            Stonefish - highly poisonous and camouflaged fish found from close to the
            shore down to a couple of hundred metres. Family is known as the
            Synanceiidae (Syancejidae also acceptable), with nine genera and about 30
            species. 'The' stonefish in popular terms is indeed Synanceia verrucosa.

            Garfish - BrE/AmE minefield here! To cut a long story short, the sea fish
            known as a 'gar' or 'garfish' to lay users of language in Europe is
            technically a needlefish, nicely into Czech as 'Jehlice' (rohozoba for the
            European one). What is in Australia, Bruce knows (and I don't mean Chatwin;
            he stole ideas, rather than facts).

            In the meantime, trust NO Czech dictionary on animals and plants. I know of
            none without deep flaws. Whatever you - or the author you're translating -
            think of Linnaean classification, it's the only path: Oz/Abo to binomial,
            update and check binomial, then to Czech is the only way to avoid some very
            silly errors.

            Best, and luck with it


            Tony
          • Dominik Lukes
            Thanks Martine. Which dictionary did you use? ... Is it ropusnice or ropus^nice? ... But what about the vine? popinava kopriva ? The thing about Lakoff (the
            Message 5 of 15 , Mar 6, 2002
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              Thanks Martine. Which dictionary did you use?
              > stone fish (HaisHod have tropicka ryba Synanceja verrucosa) ropusnice
              Is it ropusnice or ropus^nice?

              > garfish (HaisHod have jehlice rohozuba) - also kostli´n
              > stinging nettle vine - stinging nettle is kopriva
              But what about the vine? 'popinava kopriva'?


              The thing about Lakoff (the book is Women, Fire and Dangerous Things) is
              that he uses approximate terms which may or may not be Australian.

              Dominik
            • Martin Janda
              Ahoj Dominiku, ropus´nice. Ta popinavka - neda se se to nejak opsat? treba jako popinava zahava rostlina ? HTH Martin and his Millenium ... From: Dominik
              Message 6 of 15 , Mar 6, 2002
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                Ahoj Dominiku,

                ropus´nice.
                Ta popinavka - neda se se to nejak opsat? treba jako "popinava zahava
                rostlina" ?

                HTH
                Martin and his Millenium


                ----- Original Message -----
                From: "Dominik Lukes" <dlukes@...>
                To: "Czechlist@egroups. Com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wednesday, March 06, 2002 6:22 PM
                Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Australian critters


                > Thanks Martine. Which dictionary did you use?
                > > stone fish (HaisHod have tropicka ryba Synanceja verrucosa)
                ropusnice
                > Is it ropusnice or ropus^nice?
                >
                > > garfish (HaisHod have jehlice rohozuba) - also kostli´n
                > > stinging nettle vine - stinging nettle is kopriva
                > But what about the vine? 'popinava kopriva'?
                >
                >
                > The thing about Lakoff (the book is Women, Fire and Dangerous Things) is
                > that he uses approximate terms which may or may not be Australian.
                >
                > Dominik
                >
                >
                >
                > Czechlist: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist
                > Post message: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
              • Matej Klimes
                ... Problem with Australian (anything) is that nobody quite knows what that is....... But I m sure they have distinct names for the (basic) plants and
                Message 7 of 15 , Mar 6, 2002
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                  >
                  > The thing about Lakoff (the book is Women, Fire and Dangerous Things) is
                  > that he uses approximate terms which may or may not be Australian.

                  Problem with Australian (anything) is that nobody quite knows what that
                  is.......

                  But I'm sure they have distinct names for the (basic) plants and creatures -
                  there's so much things that haven't been discovered, or things that only
                  live in remote areas - Aborigines may know them, but then they have lots of
                  different languages - eventhough they can sing maps to each other......

                  Take someone from England and send them to a hot, dry place with animals and
                  plants that don't exist anywhere else, or things that should have been dead
                  millions of years ago and you're bound to run into troubles inventing names
                  for the stuff......

                  Matej


                  >
                  > Dominik
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > Czechlist: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist
                  > Post message: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
                  >
                  > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                • dominiklukes
                  Thanks Tony, I really appreciate the help. I suspected as much - Lakoff uses terms that will be understandable to his North American audience and doesn t care
                  Message 8 of 15 , Mar 6, 2002
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                    Thanks Tony, I really appreciate the help. I suspected as much -
                    Lakoff uses terms that will be understandable to his North American
                    audience and doesn't care about biology or Australia. The question
                    is, should I? Because the only translations I can give will be semi-
                    biological and thus confusing to professionals and not illuminating
                    to the general reader. The real annoying thing is that he only uses
                    these terms in one list as an example of a category and it doesn't
                    make any difference because the readers have to take his word for it
                    anyway. I might as well call them fish X and poisonous fish Y. I'll
                    have to discuss with my editor whether to use the US equivalents and
                    add a footnote or something similar. I'll report the results to the
                    list if and when...

                    Dominik

                    --- In Czechlist@y..., "Tony Long" <tonylong@i...> wrote:
                    > Dominik
                    >
                    > I've just spent a long and unproductive couple of hours with my
                    library -
                    > the kind you get by editing wildlife encyclopaedias and writing
                    fish books -
                    > and I've come to the conclusion that you need Australians on this.
                    Google
                    > your way into the CSIRO or some other Australian wildlife
                    organisation and
                    > get the binomials, then bother the museums of Prague or Brno for
                    acceptable
                    > Czech names. Synonyms might also do it 'ugly warty bastard that
                    lurks in the
                    > coral and kills yer' might do for stonefish, as already suggested.
                    >
                    > The problem is indeed one of classification. When the whites
                    colonised Oz,
                    > they either pinched animal names from the locals (budgerigar =
                    (roughly)
                    > 'tasty little snack'), or imposed European names, often highly
                    localised and
                    > idiomatic, on critters superficially similar to Eurospecies: thus
                    the -
                    > allegedly extinct - Tasmanian wolf is a marsupial and farther,
                    taxonomically
                    > speaking, from a wolf than I am. The gar is a classic example:
                    starting for
                    > the sea fish mentioned below, the name was given to a largely
                    freshwater and
                    > superficially similar group from the US, and now ichthyologists
                    use 'gar'
                    > for the US lot and 'needlefish' for the European saltwater gars -
                    while we
                    > of the sea still keep calling a gar a gar. But when we got exported
                    to Oz
                    > (lots of Kent and Sussex did) we probably offloaded the name onto
                    the
                    > nearest thin fish with a spiky nose, utterly unrelated to our gars
                    in
                    > technical terms (I've a feeling it's one of the pipefishes, but
                    can't
                    > confirm). Many, many more examples exist. If you're not Oz, then a
                    rainbow
                    > snake is exclusive to America, a.t.d.
                    >
                    > Jan Jelinek's works (The Great Art of the Early Australians, etc)
                    might also
                    > start a useful trail.
                    >
                    > Stonefish - highly poisonous and camouflaged fish found from close
                    to the
                    > shore down to a couple of hundred metres. Family is known as the
                    > Synanceiidae (Syancejidae also acceptable), with nine genera and
                    about 30
                    > species. 'The' stonefish in popular terms is indeed Synanceia
                    verrucosa.
                    >
                    > Garfish - BrE/AmE minefield here! To cut a long story short, the
                    sea fish
                    > known as a 'gar' or 'garfish' to lay users of language in Europe is
                    > technically a needlefish, nicely into Czech as 'Jehlice' (rohozoba
                    for the
                    > European one). What is in Australia, Bruce knows (and I don't mean
                    Chatwin;
                    > he stole ideas, rather than facts).
                    >
                    > In the meantime, trust NO Czech dictionary on animals and plants. I
                    know of
                    > none without deep flaws. Whatever you - or the author you're
                    translating -
                    > think of Linnaean classification, it's the only path: Oz/Abo to
                    binomial,
                    > update and check binomial, then to Czech is the only way to avoid
                    some very
                    > silly errors.
                    >
                    > Best, and luck with it
                    >
                    >
                    > Tony
                  • Michael Grant
                    On 3/6/02 5:44 AM, PSS Praha - Coilin O Connor ... Yet someone on another list recently referred to an American Indian as an aborigine , which though
                    Message 9 of 15 , Mar 6, 2002
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                      On 3/6/02 5:44 AM, "PSS Praha - Coilin O' Connor"
                      <coilin.oconnor@...> wrote:

                      > Technically, English doesn´t either. The primary meaning of the word
                      > "aborigine/aboriginal" refers to the original inhabitants of a particular
                      > land or country (i.e. it is fairly interchangeable with "indigenous")

                      Yet someone on another list recently referred to an American Indian as an
                      "aborigine", which though technically correct had an extremely odd effect.

                      Michael

                      --
                      If you can't beat your computer at chess, try kickboxing.
                    • dominiklukes
                      ... Given that we re talking about two lines (no aboriginal names either) out of a 600-page book - not much. Rather, it s something that will have to wait
                      Message 10 of 15 , Mar 7, 2002
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                        > Back to you later today - must teach. How much time do you have
                        Given that we're talking about two lines (no aboriginal names either)
                        out of a 600-page book - not much. Rather, it's something that will
                        have to wait until the editing process after the whole thing's done.

                        > and how
                        > interested are you in getting it 100% right? I have the contacts,
                        but it
                        > takes time....
                        First, I'd be interested in figuring out what 'right' means in this
                        case. I want to make it easy on the reader and not confusing for the
                        odd specialist. I will take the museum route you suggested first and
                        will be knocking on your e-door if that fails.

                        Thanks again for your effort. The book's long and covering a lot of
                        areas of expertise so I doubt this is the last time, I'm 'sharing' my
                        travails with the list.

                        Dominik
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