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51936Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."

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  • James Kirchner
    Jun 22, 2013
    • 0 Attachment
      "Vyzkouseny" has a sense of completeness to it (probably because of the prefix "vy-"), but "tested" doesn't have that sense. "Tested" does not have to mean that there was a favorable result to the test. It just means something was tested and says nothing about the result. ("We tested it, and it fell apart." "This is where we put the tested parts that failed.") This is why "tried-and-tested" is tautological.

      Another reason is that "tested" doesn't mean it underwent anything "oficialni" or "podnikove". You can see this on the containers that cleaners come in, where it says, "Test it on an inconspicuous place on the material," to make sure it doesn't damage the surface it's supposed to clean. There are similar statements on other instructions. They indicate that a regular person is supposed to "zkusit" something at home under uncontrolled conditions. A teenage girl may "test her attractiveness" on boys at school, or two men may "test their strength" against each other by arm wrestling. "Test" does not have to be "oficialni" or "podnikove", and I would estimate that in most usages it is not.

      I think there are two confusing things here that make interpretation of the word prone to interference from Czech:

      1. Czech uses perfective forms that imply completion and some result. The word "test" does not necessarily imply completion or a result.

      2. Czech has native and foreign synonyms here, and the foreign synonym (as in English) is more likely to be used for something official. In English, "test" is used in as many or more informal contexts than official ones.

      Jamie

      On Jun 22, 2013, at 5:23 AM, Sarka Rubkova wrote:

      > Proste nechapu proc tried and tested nedava smysl. Podle mne tato slova maji odlisny vyznam. Tried je neco jako vyzkouseny (ve smyslu vyzkouseny postup) - nekdo to vyzkousel (zkusil), a slo. Tested podle znamena nejake oficialni nebo podnikove testy s prokazatelnymi vysledky.
      >
      > Tak v cem je problem?
      >
      > sarka
      >
      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: czechlist-bounces@... [mailto:czechlist-bounces@...] On Behalf Of James Kirchner
      > Sent: Friday, June 21, 2013 1:49 PM
      > To: czechlist@...
      > Subject: Re: [Czechlist]"tried-and-..."
      >
      > I've never heard "tried and trusted", but it makes perfect sense, unlike "tried and tested".
      >
      > Thanks very much.
      >
      > Jamie
      >
      > On Jun 21, 2013, at 2:15 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >
      >> If 'tried and tested' is too much of a tautology for you and 'tried
      >> and true' too American for the client, what about
      >>
      >> "Tried and trusted"?
      >>
      >> That seems to tick all the boxes:
      >>
      >> http://oxforddictionaries.com/definition/english/tried%2Band%2Btested%
      >> 2Bor%2Btried%2Band%2Btrusted%2Bor%2Bnorth%2Bamerican%2Btried%2Band%2Bt
      >> rue___1
      >>
      >> M
      >> ------ Original Message ------
      >> From: "James Kirchner" <czechlist@...>
      >> To: czechlist@...
      >> Sent: 21.6.2013 5:56:14
      >> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] "tried-and-..."
      >>> Attested or not, the term sounds so stupid to me that I want to avoid
      >>> it.
      >>>
      >>> I have clients wanting Germlish or Czenglish, but I don't give it to
      >>> them. The best thing is just to use another term. The only reason he
      >>> got this "tried-and-..." bug in his rear end is that I used the term
      >>> "tried-and-true". If I hadn't chosen that term, he'd never have
      >>> thought about it, so I see nothing wrong with using a completely
      >>> different sort of term that neither one of us will complain about.
      >>>
      >>> Jamie
      >>>
      >>> On Jun 20, 2013, at 10:24 PM, wustpisk wrote:
      >>>
      >>>> Nothing wrong with tried and tested, IMO
      >>>> http://www.usingenglish.com/reference/idioms/tried+and+tested.html
      >>>> http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/tried+and+tested
      >>>> http://www.businesstraveller.com/tried-and-tested
      >>>>
      >>>> If that is what the customer wants, let him have it, after all koho
      >>> chleba jis, toho pisen zpivej ...
      >>>>
      >>>> --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, James Kirchner <czechlist@...> wrote:
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Let me pick people's brains, please.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> In North America, we use an expression "tried-and-true", meaning
      >>> that something has gone through repeated use and testing and has
      >>> shown itself to do what it's supposed to.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> "a tried-and-true method"
      >>>>> "a tried-and-true solution"
      >>>>> "a tried-and-true device"
      >>>>>
      >>>>> A client of a client of mine (a non-native English speaker) hates
      >>> this expression for some reason, and wants me to say
      >>> "tried-and-tested". To me, "tried-and-tested" sounds like
      >>> tautological nonsense, as if people keep trying something and testing
      >>> it but still can't tell if works.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> I'm looking for synonyms so that I don't have to use either of
      >>> these "tried-and-..." expressions. Then neither the client's client
      >>> or I will have anything to complain about.
      >>>>>
      >>>>> The only synonym I can think of right now is "proven" (a proven
      >>> method, a proven machine, a proven device, etc.).
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Can anyone think of other synonyms?
      >>>>>
      >>>>> Jamie
      >>>>>
      >>>>>
      >>>>> _______________________________________________
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      >>>>>
      >>>>
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      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
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