Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

50433Re: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's greetings

Expand Messages
  • Charles Stanford
    Dec 31, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      I don't think that there is too much harshness implied in "Not much point
      dwelling on why exactly xxx is just plain wrong" Jiri. May have sounded a
      bit that way but I am sure Melvyn just meant that it was just obvious why
      it was wrong. I have not really been following this thread but this is such
      a good forum and Melvyn is a vital part of that and goes to a lot of length
      to provide intelligent insight, so I think he needs to be cut a bit of
      slack. I am sure it was not intended as a sharp put-down. The Internet can
      be a bit dangerous sometimes because we dash things off without ever having
      any face-to-face/voice-to-voice contact, but I really don't think that it
      is something to get too steamed up about.

      On 31 December 2012 02:17, Pilucha, Jiri <jiri.pilucha@...> wrote:

      > Oh yes, it was harsh, and very much so; in fact quite unprecedented in the
      > history of this forum.
      > As for my discrepancy, how do I explain it? Human error, as simple as
      > that. I spoke of "the second of your examples" where the first one was
      > "Mytim cerena, pohybujici se bublinkova pena....." and then my eyes hastily
      > scanned the second paragraph, "The suds, whipped up by the washing process
      > and constantly in motion...", and in a fraction of a second I jumped to the
      > conclusion "Hey this is exactly the right order of words", without
      > realizing that I was actually reading an English sentence, and funnier than
      > that, an English translation of the first one. I apologize for my error. It
      > does not change the fact, though, that creative writers have a license to
      > do whatever they want and an example like that is, in my opinion,
      > irrelevant in this debate.
      > And yes, I am totally missing your basic point insofar as your objective
      > as a translator is to be looking at all costs for the least good of all
      > options and exert enormous effort explaining how it cannot unequivocally be
      > described as outright wrong.
      > It is curious how you avoid going to an undisputable authority such as UJC
      > or UBS. I will gladly pay the 3 hundred myself and then re-send their
      > response. And accept their verdict, and apologize if proven wrong.
      > High school teachers? Been there.
      > Jiri
      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of Melvyn
      > Sent: Saturday, December 29, 2012 11:19 AM
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's
      > greetings
      > >Are you serious in putting forward a quote from an author of experimental
      > prose highly idiosyncratic in his innovating usage of language (Topol) as
      > being relevant in an argument concerning standardized grammar?
      > Jiří, you sent two messages stating that Topol wrote his sentence
      > with the long pre-noun insert CORRECTLY (your capitals),
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50347
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50348
      > Now you are coming out with a quite different argument. How do you explain
      > this strange discrepancy?
      > My interest, as I have said (viz "decent Czech or not..." etc), is
      > actually in characterizing the style of usage, e.g. can it be described as
      > academic, archaic, formal, literary etc etc, given that such structures do
      > crop up? But think descriptive not prescriptive.
      > Your latest argument goes to show (to me at least) that Topol can write
      > sentences of "winged" prose, which many people admire, and yet which are
      > found (at least by some) to be ungrammatical.
      > But does that make them any less decent? Not according to your answers
      > above. And there perhaps is the rub. It is surely quite possible to write
      > decently and appropriately (and "literarily") without writing "correctly".
      > We can all name dozens of other modern and not-so-modern authors who write
      > non-standardly one way or another. And we translators have to deal with
      > them all.
      > >Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question "What exactly
      > would be wrong with xxx") : "Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is
      > just plain wrong". I was rather perplexed at such a harsh response,
      > Not harsh at all. I say exactly the same thing to anybody, native or
      > non-native, who asks questions that can best be answered "it just is". Life
      > is short, this way we focus on more useful tasks, and in a context where I
      > answered two other points at some length while I was busy, well, I do not
      > think you were too badly done by. Quite the contrary.
      > I should also point out that this list has lots of non-Czechs like me who
      > make various comments on the Czech language (and Czechs who make insightful
      > comments on the English language) -- for your edification or otherwise. If
      > this is ever hard to handle then there is not much I can do for you.
      > >Send a written query to Jazykova poradna UJC and/or Ustav bohemistickych
      > studii University Karlovy and ask them which of the following is decent
      > Czech.
      > Again I think you are missing a basic point that I have been making
      > throughout this thread. I could send all kinds of professional,
      > hypercorrect, low colloquial, slang, dialectal and archaic language with
      > equivalents in standard everyday Czech and it would be no surprise if they
      > pointed out the non-standard nature of the original sentences in
      > comparison. But the sentences in question could still be the most
      > appropriate or characteristic in their given context (e.g. use of archaic
      > language in some ceremonies, use of obecná čeština in fiction and
      > reportage - not decent Czech?). And that is what interests me - their
      > typical style, register, domain etc. Check the thread as I am repeating
      > myself.
      > BTW I believe the language advice centre now charges a minimum of three
      > hundred crowns for written responses. I shall check to see if they offer
      > gift vouchers.
      > >(and by the way, what "teachers" are you talking about? High school?
      > Please give me a break.
      > And what is wrong with high school teachers? A finer bunch of people I
      > have never met.
      > Regards,
      > M.
      > P.S. Jamie, I see the humour:
      > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Czechlist/message/50331
      > But am I missing something here?
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      > ------------------------------------
      > Yahoo! Groups Links

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Show all 32 messages in this topic