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50426Jazykova poradna, was: Long adjectival phrases

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  • Petr
    Dec 28, 2012
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      Technicka poznamka: UJC se rozhodl, ze tu neni pro lidi a neni placen z nasich dani, takze uz poradna nedava rady zadarmo. Za kazdy dotaz je treba zaplatit.
      Petr Adamek

      --- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com, "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...> wrote:
      >
      > Melvyn,
      >
      > Some time ago you wrote here (in response to my question "What exactly would be wrong with xxx") : "Not much point dwelling on why exactly xxx is just plain wrong". I was rather perplexed at such a harsh response, but I said to myself: "Okay, he's the native speaker so why don't I shut up, he must be right, simple as that, case closed."
      >
      > Today I am no less perplexed about you as a non-native speaker of Czech giving me a seminar about long adjectival phrases in Czech (and by the way, what "teachers" are you talking about? High school? Please give me a break. And how many did you ask? Two?) ....but instead of telling you "Not much point dwelling on why you are wrong", here's what I suggest.
      >
      > Send a written query to Jazykova poradna UJC and/or Ustav bohemistickych studii University Karlovy and ask them which of the following is decent Czech.
      >
      > (a) Snaha, aby se na krest'anskou viru nove obraceni prosti lide naucili pozadovanym modlitbam latinsky
      > (b) Snaha, aby se prosti lide nove obraceni na krest'anskou viru naucili pozadovanym modlitbam latinsky
      >
      > If they say the right choice is (a), I'll buy you a bottle of your favorite drink (well, up to a reasonable limit...)
      >
      > Best regards
      >
      > Jiri
      >
      > P.S. Are you serious in putting forward a quote from an author of experimental prose highly idiosyncratic in his innovating usage of language (Topol) as being relevant in an argument concerning standardized grammar?
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      > From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of melvyn.geo
      > Sent: Wednesday, December 19, 2012 9:02 PM
      > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Long adjectival phrases revisited plus season's greetings
      >
      >
      >
      > Sarka wrote:
      > Ja si nemyslim, ze neco takoveho by bylo prekladem z nemciny. Je to spise snaha nejakeho historika nacpat do jedne vety co nejvice informaci. Historici a kunshistorici to casto delaji.
      >
      > Take je to moje zkusenost a mam dojem, ze takove struktury jsou priznacne mj pro akademicky styl. Anebo kecam?
      >
      > Jiri wrote:
      > The point is that in Czech you don't put a long adjectival phrase IN FRONT of the noun.
      >
      > Oh yes you do. You yourself go on to admit that this happens in practice. And if it happens under the influence of German then surely that does not _necessarily_ make it any less Czech, because Czech has ALWAYS been under the influence of German, as Pavel Eisner points out in detail in Chram i tvrz. Knedlik - knoedl etc.
      >
      > >as done CORRECTLY in the second of your examples
      >
      > Example 1] ... na krest'anskou viru nove obraceni prosti lide
      >
      > Example 2] ...Mytim cerena, pohybujici se bublinkova pena
      >
      > Both examples have long adjectival strings (AKA "extended adjectival constructions", "extended modifiers" and "pre-noun inserts" or erweiterte Adjektive*) before the noun.
      >
      > Asking around, I find that you are making distinctions here that go way above the heads of experienced Czech language teachers. One Czech teacher colleague comments: "In my opinion, the sentence** is perfectly Czech, it is just more literary." **[1]
      >
      > >But of course if you repeat a mistake frequently enough it may become codified as accepted usage.
      >
      > To go off on a bit of a tangent, I used to be told off by my old literature tutor at SSEES for using fused participles, which used to be considered "grammatically indefensible" (by Fowler, for example, although the great Jespersen defended them). Fast forward a few decades and I now actually teach fused participles, because they crop up as standard in my TEFL textbook texts.
      > http://www.answers.com/topic/fused-participles
      >
      > >N�kdy se ale stane, ze se chyba objevuje tak casto, ze se nakonec jeji uzivani uznava.
      >
      > Not true. Take split infinitives as another example in English. The old idea that they were incorrect is surely now itself considered incorrect.
      >
      > And let's not get into Czech spelling reforms over the years. :-)
      >
      > Anyway, it is getting round to that time of year again, so let me be the first to wish all Czechlisters a merry-but-do-try-to-exercise-a-little-moderation-with-all-those-slepovane-hvezdicky-also-known-as-Linz-cookies Christmas.
      >
      > Have a cool Yule: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UzKWHXlroBY
      >
      > BR
      >
      > M
      > *http://itre.cis.upenn.edu/~myl/languagelog/archives/005051.html
      >
      >
      >
      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >
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