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49651Re[2]: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech

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  • Matej Klimes
    Aug 9, 2012
    • 0 Attachment
      Diky Jirko a Martine for further input..

      Re conjugating Android - these were advertising headlines, Jirko, if I
      said 's operacnim systemem Android' every time, they would sound stupid
      and would not fit into the banner/on billboards because they'd be twice
      as long.. some brand names are best not conjugated (and then you need a
      'berlicka', hopefully shorter than this), but some conjugate very well
      - and Android is one of those, see around as Martin said (I think it's
      because we think of it - the name - as a person?)... it wasn't my idea
      or persistence to conjugate it - it's been done before in other
      headlines of that particular client, plus it really makes sense here,
      the headlines would just be stupid otherwise..

      Thanks for enlightening me on the legal/TM situation - now that I think
      of it it makes sense, but I don't think anyone's likely to be enforcing
      the no conjugation rule

      Re client satisfaction.. I didn't insist, I just told them using TM in
      every headline is not what we do in Czech, that it looks weird because
      of this and that (conjugation being one of those) and that it is
      usually dealt with in small print in Czech ads and that I'd recommend
      dropping it to get the best result (Martin's example with Spanish
      question marks - although it's not exactly the same thing - is a good
      way to explain this, I'll use it next time..)... It was their call in
      the end and we'll see how they decided when the adverts are out..

      Thanks again

      M


      ------ Original Message ------
      From: "Pilucha, Jiri" <jiri.pilucha@...>
      To: "Czechlist@yahoogroups.com" <Czechlist@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: 9.8.2012 23:32:37
      Subject: RE: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
      > Martine,
      >
      >(a) as to conjugation of Trade Names
      >
      >in a corporate environment I’ve been trained to strictly avoid any
      >legal risk and you may rightly regard it a professional deformation.
      >But professional issues aside, personally I am willing to respect
      >legal rights of others, even in purely formal aspects where
      >non-compliance may not cause any big harm. In today’s environment
      >where most people don’t give a damn e.g. about copyright (to which
      >trademark issues are somewhat related in nature) I see it as a
      >symbolic gesture of respect which I consciously wish to express. Of
      >course a lot depends on the type of text (a novel, blog, opinion
      >column, Facebook posting, as opposed to official documents, product
      >documentation, advertisements…)
      >
      >About a lawsuit, I noted that it was „highly unlikely but not unheard
      >of“. In 99.9999999% of cases they won‘t sue. But for instance I’ve
      >heard of corporation X which sued their client (!) for using X’s logo
      >in lower than camera-ready resolution and they succeeded. If you ask
      >me I don’t want to be the 0.00000001%.
      >
      >(b) as to client satisfaction
      >
      >Re: „Whether to make the paying customer happy whatever the costs
      >are…“ -- I don’t entirely understand the horrendous cost of attaching
      >TM to the product name. What’s the big deal here? (Admittedly, what I
      >don’t understand either is why would they bother getting back to you
      >about this rather than making the cosmetic change themselves)
      >
      >Jiri
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
      >Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 10:18 PM
      >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      >Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
      >
      >
      >
      >I beg to disagree, Jirka. The Czech web, media and space around us are
      >full of conjugated forms of all kinds of brand names, not only Adroid.
      >No one seem to initiate any lawsuits because of that, let alone
      >multimilion lawsuits. What would you want to claim/complaint of? Brani
      >znacky bozi bez trejdmarku do ust nadarmo? What harm this should make
      >to
      >whom? No one will tell you why even if you ask your clients. A legal
      >thing, yes. I can almost hear American lawyers: 'We don't think you
      >would need to use furcoats in Borneo but please keep wearing them,
      >just
      >in case a snow storm arrives.'
      >
      >As to stubborn refusals - it depends what is my goal. Whether to make
      >the paying customer happy whatever the costs are, or to make the end
      >user of my text happy. I go for the latter... and if the paying
      >customer is reasonable and listen to me, s/he will be happy too. (And
      >I
      >am trying hard to keep the reasonable ones and avoid the rest.)
      >
      >Martin
      >
      >Dne 9.8.2012 21:19, Pilucha, Jiri napsal(a):
      >>
      >>
      >> Re> „it looks weird in a Czech sentence, especially when the word is
      >> conjugated (it has an ending tacked onto it, which makes it sound
      >> Czech, AND technically it's not the Trade Mark any more, Android is,
      >> but AndroidEM isn't, I doubt they registered every possible variant
      >in
      >> all languages)... this is a cultural thing“
      >>
      >> I’d say it’s a legal thing rather than a cultural thing.
      >> They don’t need to „register every possible variant in all
      >languages“,
      >> simply because (legally) you are not permitted to change the word in
      >> any way. Conjugating the word is violation of the Trade Mark.
      >Strictly
      >> speaking you should never use „Androidem“ but always „operacnim
      >> systemem Android“. It’s not about „what works better in Czech“ but
      >> about multimillion lawsuits. Obviously, it is a pain in the *ss to
      >do
      >> this all the time, but here’s the key point: if your client releases
      >> your translation wehere the word is changed and thus the trade mark
      >> violated (especially in high visibility instances such as
      >advertisng),
      >> it’s THEM who’s running the risk of legal action against them.
      >Highly
      >> unlikely but not unheard of.
      >>
      >> That much for conjugating the TM-ed words. As for using TM on every
      >> occurrence of the word, I agree it’s a lot more elegant to resolve
      >it
      >> by small print footnotes instead, and that’s exactly what you see
      >most
      >> of the time in the US too (i.e. it’s not a matter of „decent
      >language
      >> feeling“ of Czechs as Martin put it) but if the client insists on it
      >I
      >> can see no reason why stubbornly refuse it.
      >>
      >> Jiri
      >>
      >>
      >> From: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> [mailto:Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>] On Behalf Of Martin Janda
      >> Sent: Thursday, August 09, 2012 11:17 AM
      >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
      >>
      >>
      >>
      >> No, that's a preference of all native Czechs (or at least those with
      >a
      >> decent language feeling). That's something I keep struggling with
      >every
      >> day when facing my clients, typically US-based agency PMs. My
      >favorite
      >> reply to those requests is something like this:
      >>
      >> Imagine you have a Spanish client asking you to translate their
      >fancy
      >> Spanish ad into English. The client demands that you keep all
      >inverted
      >> questionmarks and exclamation marks (that they use at the beginning
      >of
      >> sentences) because 'If it works in Spanish, then it must work in
      >English
      >> too'. Would you be happy with that?
      >>
      >> Another M
      >>
      >> Dne 9.8.2012 9:49, Matej Klimes napsal(a):
      >> >
      >> > I did (let them have it if they want to), but I told them it's
      >going to
      >> > look silly in an ad headline... the reason I asked here was to
      >confirm
      >> > whether that's not just my theory/preference..
      >> >
      >> >
      >> > M
      >> > ------ Original Message ------
      >> > From: "wustpisk" <gerry.vickers@...<mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
      >> <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com><mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>
      >> > <mailto:gerry.vickers%40gmail.com>>
      >> > To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>
      ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >> <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> > Sent: 8.8.2012 15:31:33
      >> > Subject: [Czechlist] Re: Use of the TM symbol in Czech
      >> > > If they want their little TM, let them have it
      >> > >koho chleba jís, toho pisen zpivej
      >> > >
      >> > >Neres to :)
      >> > >
      >> > >--- In Czechlist@yahoogroups.com<mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >>
      ><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com><mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >
      >> > <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>, "Matej Klimes"
      >>
      ><mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...<mailto:mklimes@...%3cmailto:mklimes@...>>>
      >wrote:
      >> > >>
      >> > >> A client's client insists on using TM in superscript above the
      >word
      >> > >> Android in advertising copy in Czech, where the word Android is
      >> > >> conjugated, i.e. it's an advert headline that says someting
      >like
      >> > >(made
      >> > >> up example):
      >> > >>
      >> > >> Rozumim si s Androidem - where the ENG original was something
      >like
      >> > >'I
      >> > >> am made for Android'
      >> > >>
      >> > >> (the adverts are for a consumer electronic device unrelated to
      >> > >> Android/google, just using it and the bits in questions are
      >> > >headlines,
      >> > >> not body copies, or small print..)
      >> > >>
      >> > >> It wasn't there originally, but now the client's client (the
      >> > >> manufacturer) came back saying there has to be a (TM) after
      >every
      >> > >> Android - makes sense (and looks/sounds fine) in English, but
      >I'm
      >> > >> trying to tell them that we don't normally use it in Czech in
      >plain
      >> > >> text (let alone in advertising copy/headlines), I guess the
      >main
      >> > >reason
      >> > >> is that it's an English abbreviation and it looks weird in a
      >Czech
      >> > >> sentence, especially when the word is conjugated (it has an
      >ending
      >> > >> tacked onto it, which makes it sound Czech, AND technically
      >it's not
      >> > >> the Trade Mark any more, Android is, but AndroidEM isn't, I
      >doubt
      >> > >they
      >> > >> registered every possible variant in all languages)... this is
      >a
      >> > >> cultural thing, we just don't do it in text or in copy -
      >there'll be
      >> > >a
      >> > >> small print footnote saying that Coca Cola is registered TM of
      >xxx
      >> > >etc.
      >> > >> (in Czech), but the copy itself - especially headlines - will
      >not
      >> > >have
      >> > >> any TM in it in Czech adverts...
      >> > >>
      >> > >> Can you confirm (or not) this feeling/opinion? Both Czech and
      >ENG
      >> > >> speakers? Thoughts?
      >> > >>
      >> > >> Thanks
      >> > >>
      >> > >> Matej
      >> > >>
      >> > >
      >> > >
      >> >
      >> > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >> >
      >> >
      >>
      >>
      >> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      >>
      >>
      >
      >
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      >
      >


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