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46902Re[2]: [Czechlist] Creative translation contest: Lichoz^routi, Lichac^e

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  • Matej Klimes
    Aug 3, 2011
    • 0 Attachment
      I think Stephan only made that comment because he thought I was
      commenting on the English version of the name when I was talking about
      the Czech one... I see how frustrating it can be when you make a
      suggestions as native speaker(s) and we keep trying to apply our Czech
      logic to it (but this isn't a technical term, feelings and moods are
      involved - or should be... that's why I keep discussing it..)

      And I expect the opinions to vary a lot not only across oceans, but
      also within the same country, plus there's another concern - the
      English title will also be used for non-native speakers, I presume...
      basically I just want lots of opinions/views and then try to use them
      in either selecting the best from the existing translations or coming
      up with a new one... and as I said, this time I'm not looking for a
      ready-made translation/term that exists and says exactly what this is,
      it could be (perhaps should be - IMHO) one that's a bit mysterious (I
      could also say odd:)...

      Didn't want to start a war :)

      Anyway, thanks to all who contributed, keep going if you find a moment,
      it's interesting to hear different perspectives
      ------ Original Message ------
      From: "Charlie Stanford Translations"
      <charliestanfordtranslations@...>
      To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: 3.8.2011 15:20:15
      Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Creative translation contest: Lichoz^routi,
      Lichac^e
      > I also happen to be a native speaker Stephan.... and I find the tone
      >of your posting and of Jamie's enough to put my back up. If you put a
      >hyphen Jamie between "odd" and "sock" then it is pretty damn obvious
      >that the sock eater is not "strange" but eating only one of your socks
      >- which is the basic tenet of the book. More importantly, if this
      >forum is going to work then both of you have to use a little bit of
      >tactfulness and respect and not get quite so horrendously dogmatic and
      >domineering with your answers. I did not "diss" your answers so I
      >don't see any reason why you should do the same with mine. It is
      >putting me off answering questions. I do not know all the answers but
      >neither do you. I would be interested to hear from other English
      >native speakers but to me "sock eaters" sounds "very boring and
      >characterless and a bit crap" - there you go....
      >
      >----- Original Message -----
      >From: Stephan von Pohl
      >To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com
      >Sent: Wednesday, August 03, 2011 2:48 PM
      >Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Creative translation contest: Lichoz^routi,
      >Lichac^e
      >
      >Matej, it doesn't sound mysterious or poetic. It sounds confusing and
      >wordy. Trust us native speakers. Leave out the "odd".
      >
      >On 8/3/2011 2:46 PM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >> So since lichozrout leaves out the sock bit, the sock-eater leaves
      >the
      >> out the odd part
      >>
      >> Yes, except (to me), it sounds more mysterious with the odd/lichy
      >thing
      >> rather than with the sock thing.... plus it's not a normally-used
      >word,
      >> so that adds to the mystique too... If sock-eaters exist in the
      >> collective American folklore, then I guess that's the way to go, but
      >it
      >> does take some of the poetry out..
      >>
      >> M
      >>
      >>
      >> ------ Original Message ------
      >> From: "Kent Christopher Kasha" <kasha@...
      >> <mailto:kasha%40terminal.cz>>
      >> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> Sent: 3.8.2011 14:11:28
      >> Subject: Re: Re[6]: [Czechlist] Creative translation contest:
      >> Lichoz^routi, Lichac^e
      >> >So since lichozrout leaves out the sock bit, the sock-eater leaves
      >the
      >> out the odd part, though I think that it goes without saying. If they
      >> ate both socks you probably never know unless they were your
      >favorites... :)
      >> >
      >> >"Matej Klimes" <mklimes@... <mailto:mklimes%40volny.cz>> napsal(a):
      >> >
      >> >>
      >> >>Matej, is it evident from the word lichozrout that they are
      >discussing
      >> >>socks? If you had never heard of the book or its premise before,
      >would
      >> >>you automatically know that it is socks he is eating? Just
      >wondering...
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >>No, it isn't - I said that in my original post... the socks bit
      >only
      >> >>becomes apparent when you read the explanation... and although the
      >> >>explanation is for socks only, I guess it would work with any other
      >> >>thing that comes in pairs (mind you, they look like socks)... In
      >Czech
      >> >>we say things like 'kamenozrout' (some sort of mystical creature
      >that
      >> >>eats stones), so lichozrout kind of has that quality about it
      >without
      >> >>knowing about the socks..
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >> but then given the popularity I think it has became a bit of a
      >> >>household name among families whose kids read the books.... and
      >with it
      >> >>being mentioned hundred times in the film (I would expect)... it
      >should
      >> >>have the same snappiness to it... it doesn't necessarily have to be
      >> >>self-explanatory, just open-ended and poetic and to do with
      >> >>odd-numbers/breaking a pair of something if possible..
      >> >>
      >> >>Matej
      >> >>
      >> >>
      >> >>------ Original Message ------
      >> >>From: "Kent Christopher Kasha" <kasha@...
      >> <mailto:kasha%40terminal.cz>>
      >> >>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> >>Sent: 3.8.2011 13:57:42
      >> >>Subject: Re: Re[4]: [Czechlist] Creative translation contest:
      >> >>Lichoz^routi, Lichac^e
      >> >>>Matej, is it evident from the word lichozrout that they are
      >> discussing socks? If you had never heard of the book or its premise
      >> before, would you automatically know that it is socks he is eating?
      >Just
      >> wondering...
      >> >>>
      >> >>>"Matej Klimes" <mklimes@... <mailto:mklimes%40volny.cz>> napsal(a):
      >> >>>
      >> >>>>
      >> >>>> > Do the gangs have names in Czech?
      >> >>>>
      >> >>>>In the book? - not sure... I've just seen the mob sub-species
      >mentioned
      >> >>>>somewhere...
      >> >>>>
      >> >>>>In real life? We just say mafie - and obviously ours is of the
      >> >>>>Russian/Balkans variety when foreign, but the word is used for
      >any
      >> >>>>organised crime group (more often than not to do with soccer team
      >> >>>>owners)..
      >> >>>>
      >> >>>>I just got the idea because you were discussing the
      >> >>>>Jewish/Brooklyn/Delicatessen Sock-nosher (BTW I didn't know of
      >any
      >> >>>>Jewish origins and understood it no probs, but I have a feeling
      >it's
      >> >>>>one of those translations that a Czech client will not take:)....
      >> >>>>
      >> >>>>Maybe we could have several sub-species/names depending on what
      >the
      >> >>>>creatures do..
      >> >>>>
      >> >>>>I like sock-eaters and other suggestions alot, shame we won't
      >have the
      >> >>>>'lichy' thing in there, but I guess you can't have anything..
      >> >>>>
      >> >>>>M
      >> >>>>------ Original Message ------
      >> >>>>From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...
      >> <mailto:jpklists%40sbcglobal.net>>
      >> >>>>To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> >>>>Sent: 3.8.2011 14:09:41
      >> >>>>Subject: Re: Re[2]: [Czechlist] Creative translation contest:
      >> >>>>Lichoz^routi, Lichac^e
      >> >>>>> Do the gangs have names in Czech?
      >> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>On Aug 3, 2011, at 8:03 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> Well, apparently there's going to be rival bands of
      >lichozrouti
      >> >>>>>> competing for socks and even a dark mob-style boss/gang....
      >any
      >> >>>>>> Sock-Xers name that would go with that?
      >> >>>>>>
      >> >>>>>> Matej
      >> >>>>>> ------ Original Message ------
      >> >>>>>> From: "James Kirchner" <jpklists@...
      >> <mailto:jpklists%40sbcglobal.net>>
      >> >>>>>> To: Czechlist@yahoogroups.com <mailto:Czechlist%40yahoogroups.com>
      >> >>>>>> Sent: 3.8.2011 13:59:19
      >> >>>>>> Subject: Re: [Czechlist] Creative translation contest:
      >Lichoz^routi,
      >> >>>>>> Lichac^e
      >> >>>>>> >I actually think more children would be familiar with the
      >term
      >> >>>>>"sock eater" than would know the word "troll".
      >> >>>>>> >
      >> >>>>>> >"Sock nosher" sounds like a good term to use in the sequel
      >-- maybe
      >> >>>>>even for a sock eater with a Brooklyn accent. :-) He could run
      >a sock
      >> >>>>>delicatessen.
      >> >>>>>> >
      >> >>>>>> >Jamie
      >> >>>>>> >
      >> >>>>>> >On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:28 AM, Kent Christopher Kasha wrote:
      >> >>>>>> >
      >> >>>>>> >
      >> >>>>>> >>
      >> >>>>>> >>Yeah, it came into the English language through Yiddish,
      >though
      >> >>>>>its roots are in German, as a lot of Yiddish words are, I
      >guess. I
      >> >>>>>always say that if a prairie boy from the plains of
      >Saskatchewan knows
      >> >>>>>what it is, then most people in the English-speaking world
      >probably
      >> >>>>>do! :) But I guess it could be a bit more obscure. I thought it
      >seemed
      >> >>>>>to flow a bit, but using the word nosh too often in the book
      >could get
      >> >>>>>a bit tiresome. So I think the best ideas are sockeater or
      >sock-troll,
      >> >>>>>in my humble opinion.
      >> >>>>>> >>
      >> >>>>>> >>Stephan von Pohl <stephan.pohl@...
      >> <mailto:stephan.pohl%40centrum.cz>> napsal(a):
      >> >>>>>> >>
      >> >>>>>> >>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>Jamie,
      >> >>>>>> >>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>Yes, this type of creature exists, just like the little
      >trolls
      >> >>>>>who hide
      >> >>>>>> >>>your car keys all the time. But I've never come across them
      >> >>>>>actually
      >> >>>>>> >>>having a name. We never called them "sockeaters" (in the
      >US). At
      >> >>>>>least
      >> >>>>>> >>>not in the sense that they had a name: we would just make
      >jokes
      >> >>>>>about
      >> >>>>>> >>>the creatures that ate our socks.
      >> >>>>>> >>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>Kent: Sock-noshers is nice. But maybe a little too
      >specific (most
      >> >>>>>but
      >> >>>>>> >>>not all people know what "to nosh" means, but it still
      >smacks a
      >> >>>>>little
      >> >>>>>> >>>too much of New York Jewish)
      >> >>>>>> >>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>Steve
      >> >>>>>> >>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>On 8/3/2011 1:28 PM, James Kirchner wrote:
      >> >>>>>> >>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>Matej, this type of "being" already exists in American
      >> >>>>>"folklore" and in
      >> >>>>>> >>>>the English language (at least in the US).
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>Every American knows that there is a creature in every
      >dryer
      >> >>>>>called "the
      >> >>>>>> >>>>Sock Eater" that eats one sock in a pair and leaves the
      >other
      >> >>>>>one.
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>So if you call these books/films simply "The Sock
      >Eaters", every
      >> >>>>>> >>>>American will know immediately that it's about creatures
      >who get
      >> >>>>>into
      >> >>>>>> >>>>the laundry and eat just one sock from a pair.
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>Jamie
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>On Aug 3, 2011, at 7:01 AM, Matej Klimes wrote:
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Hi there,
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>a client asked me to review/improve the English
      >translation of
      >> >>>>>a title
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>of a book/upcoming film...
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>It started life as a series of children books about weird
      >> >>>>>'beings' who
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>are responsible for the disappearance of single socks
      >out of
      >> >>>>>pairs of
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>socks..... now they are making it into a 3D animation,
      >do a
      >> >>>>>google text
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>and image search for Lichozrouti and you'll get the
      >idea... the
      >> >>>>>story
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>(and the aesthetics) are a bit of a KUKY rip-off by the
      >looks
      >> >>>>>of it..
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Here's bits of text that explains the thing (hope
      >diacritics
      >> >>>>>come
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>through OK):
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>...vždyť každému na světě se alespoň jednou ztratila
      >ponožka!
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>...no řekni, není to téma na román?
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Takhle jsem se před časem zeptala spisovatele Pavla
      >Šruta,
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>když jsme za sebou měli už řadu společných, kritikou i
      >čtenáři
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>uvítaných knih pro děti. A tak vznikli Lichožrouti,
      >knižní
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>bestseller, který posbíral řadu cen a zvedl vlnu
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>ohlasů na internetu i v knihovnách a na školách, jak
      >jsme se
      >> >>>>>osobně
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>mohli přesvědčit. Kdekdo měl ty své lichožrouty doma a
      >vyprávěl
      >> >>>>>nám
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>tu svou historku o ztracených ponožkách. Ten zájem si
      >vynutil
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>i pokračování - Lichožrouti se vracejí. A také audioverzi
      >> >>>>>Lichožroutů
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>v podání Báry
      >> >>>>>> >>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Hrzánové.
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Kniha se pro internacionální srozumitelnost tématu začala
      >> >>>>>překládat do
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>cizích jazyků.
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Všichni, včetně mne, chtěli o těch, kteří dělají z párů
      >> >>>>>licháče, vědět
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>víc. A chtěli je vidět.
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>The books are by Pavel Srut and are apparently quite
      >popular,
      >> >>>>>they have
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>been translated (possibly by Srut himself, he's also a
      >> >>>>>translator)...
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>AFAIK they've been using two translations of the title:
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>- the odd-sock eaters (IMHO that's a bit long, literal
      >and
      >> >>>>>'unpoetic'),
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>but it says what they do... there's no poetry or
      >mystique like
      >> >>>>>in the
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Czech title..
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>- the odd-eaters - I like this one better, but the
      >meaning IMHO
      >> >>>>>leans
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>toward 'divnozrouti' (odd being both lichy and divny),
      >which I
      >> >>>>>think
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>would be OK, except I checked it online and here's what
      >come
      >> >>>>>up, among
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>other things:
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>
      >> >>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vy-ncbUPg-s
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Now is that the meaning that first comes into native
      >minds, or
      >> >>>>>is the
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>word 'odd-eaters' sort of open-ended?
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>I must say I didn't get the full meaning of
      >'Lichozrouti' until
      >> >>>>>I read
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>the text above... on its own, it sounds mysterious and
      >poetic,
      >> >>>>>but
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>doesn't give you the full idea of pairs of socks being
      >> parted...
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>To me, the first translation above is sort of boring,
      >> >>>>>descriptive, too
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>long and too literal - not suited for a film title (plus
      >the
      >> >>>>>characters
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>will be called that in the film... I think something a
      >little
      >> >>>>>snappier
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>is needed)...
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>The second one is much better, it leaves things to
      >imagination
      >> >>>>>a little
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>- just as the Czech title does... but I'm worried about
      >other
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>meanings/associations (why doesn't English have a word
      >for an
      >> >>>>>odd
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>number that doesn't also mean 'weird'?)...
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Thanks for comments..
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Of course if you get any ideas about other routes that
      >could be
      >> >>>>>taken
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>re: Lichoz^routi and Lichac^e (ex-pairs of socks that
      >have
      >> >>>>>become
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>halves/only the odd one remains [or is it the even
      >one??], see
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>explanation above), I'm all ears...
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Starting with 'uneven' for lichy (isn't that too
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>bookish/old-fashioned?).... could we do something like:
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>uneven-eaters
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>uneveners
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>unevenators
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>???
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Are there other words that could be used (impair????
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>impairers/unpairers)???
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>TIAVM for comments and suggestions
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>Matej
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
      >> >>>>>> >>>>>
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