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Re: [CybikoDev] The Showcase In Something of a Working Order

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  • Marty Rabens
    Okay, I haven t hammered on anything in depth, but I thought I d share my thoughts on my initial impression before I forget anything. It s always hard to give
    Message 1 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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      Okay, I haven't hammered on anything in depth, but I thought I'd share my
      thoughts on my initial impression before I forget anything.

      It's always hard to give feedback on a work-in-progress, because you know that
      anything you point out, the designer is probably already aware of, and just
      hasn't changed yet. So feel free to ignore any or all of the following.

      First, it looks beautiful, visually. I really like the colors and layout.
      Either you lied when you said you were "really bad" at web layout, or you've
      gotten someone very skilled to help. My only caveat is that much of the text
      is difficult to read since it's black text on a background that's too dark.
      The section headers ("Public," "User," "Recent News," etc.) and the yellow
      link text are all readable, but everything else can be a little difficult on
      the eyes. I think most of this could be fixed simply by swapping the
      background colors for the section headers (the light grayish) with the
      background for the section bodies (the dark grayish). Something like this:
      http://www.rabens.com/test.html (only without the screwed up cell borders,
      broken image link, etc. in this hacked up version). It just makes the "main"
      text in sections you'd be reading (like news, etc.) a little more readable.

      Also, for each project, it would be nice if there were a longer description
      available (maybe something you could click through to).

      In News Moderation, I'm not sure why a moderator would need to change the
      "Submitted By" or "Approved By" fields.

      Everything else I've seen looks very good.

      Marty Rabens
      marty <at> rabens <dot> com


      Ernest Pazera wrote:

      > Well, I've got the Showcase in a half-way working order. Files can now be
      > uploaded and projects can be made. While I have tested this quite heavily
      > during development, there is still much to be done, and there's already a
      > minor bug I need to fix (dealing with apostrophes and JScript).
      >
      > I'm at the point where I need some people who can hammer on the system a
      > little bit, and tell me where it breaks, or when using something isnt as
      > intuitive as it should be.
      >
      > http://www.cybikodev.com/showcase
      >
      > _________________________________________________________________
      > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
      >
      >
      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > CybikoDev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
      >
      >
      >
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    • Marty Rabens
      This developer s showcase is an excellent idea, and I m looking forward to seeing it going live. However, I think it would be useful to have a different view
      Message 2 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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        This developer's showcase is an excellent idea, and I'm looking forward to
        seeing it going live. However, I think it would be useful to have a different
        view of the data for end users who just want to download games and apps for
        their cybiko. Picture this:

        I'm a cybiko owner who has no interest in programming. I'm just your average,
        insecure, hormone-charged teenager who bought a cybiko, and I'm looking for
        someplace to download cool games and apps. Something besides the stuff that
        cybiko.com is trying to push at me. To me, a "developer" is that guy at the
        PhotoMat that gives me pictures after I give him film, and a "project" is
        something they're making me do for a class at school. I'm not interested in
        betas, works-in-progress, half-finished demos, or developer's tools. I just
        want things that I can download and run, and will be useful or fun to me as a
        user. It would be nice if I could rate these programs, and see what other
        people have rated them. News items I would be interested in might be
        announcements of new games, or previews of upcoming games (without the
        technical details of how they're being developed). Think gamespot.com, only
        for the cybiko.

        The direction the developer's showcase seems to be heading will make an
        excellent site for developer's to admire each other's work, but doesn't seem
        to present the right frontend for users (who hopefully outnumber developers by
        a wide margin). As a developer, I would like to see a nice, centralized site
        for my finished application to be presented to end users. It wouldn't even
        use words like "developer" or "projects." I think such a site and the
        developer's showcase would make great "sister sites," but they'd need
        different frontends, or "looks."

        Marty Rabens
        marty <at> rabens <dot> com

        Ernest Pazera wrote:

        > Well, I've got the Showcase in a half-way working order. Files can now be
        > uploaded and projects can be made. While I have tested this quite heavily
        > during development, there is still much to be done, and there's already a
        > minor bug I need to fix (dealing with apostrophes and JScript).
        >
        > I'm at the point where I need some people who can hammer on the system a
        > little bit, and tell me where it breaks, or when using something isnt as
        > intuitive as it should be.
        >
        > http://www.cybikodev.com/showcase
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > CybikoDev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
      • Ernest Pazera
        ... actually, i did all of that myself. its amazing what adding a little color will do to help the look of tables. All i did was add BORDERCOLOR and BGCOLOR
        Message 3 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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          >First, it looks beautiful, visually. I really like the colors and layout.
          >Either you lied when you said you were "really bad" at web layout, or
          >you've
          >gotten someone very skilled to help.

          actually, i did all of that myself. its amazing what adding a little color
          will do to help the look of tables. All i did was add BORDERCOLOR and
          BGCOLOR to the various tags, and set the CELLSPACING to zero.

          >My only caveat is that much of the text
          >is difficult to read since it's black text on a background that's too dark.
          >The section headers ("Public," "User," "Recent News," etc.) and the yellow
          >link text are all readable, but everything else can be a little difficult
          >on
          >the eyes. I think most of this could be fixed simply by swapping the
          >background colors for the section headers (the light grayish) with the
          >background for the section bodies (the dark grayish). Something like this:
          >http://www.rabens.com/test.html (only without the screwed up cell borders,
          >broken image link, etc. in this hacked up version). It just makes the
          >"main"
          >text in sections you'd be reading (like news, etc.) a little more readable.

          i set up the colors so that they can be easily changed. I'll be tweaking
          them a bit before its really time to get going.

          >Also, for each project, it would be nice if there were a longer description
          >available (maybe something you could click through to).

          The description field for a project is actually a memo field, with a
          virtually unlimited amount of space to write the description in. The tests
          i've done i just didnt add big descriptions.

          >In News Moderation, I'm not sure why a moderator would need to change the
          >"Submitted By" or "Approved By" fields.

          A moderator can't modify those directly (you are an administrator, and can).
          A moderator can indirectly set the Approved By field by approving or
          disapproving an item. A moderator doesnt even see the form you are talking
          about, nor can he delete posts (the checkboxes arent even there for a
          moderator). keep in mind that every level of user sees the site a bit
          differently.

          _________________________________________________________________
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        • Ernest Pazera
          that was how i had originally intended the showcase to work, with the public section being the for non-developers section, and i could probably still work
          Message 4 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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            that was how i had originally intended the showcase to work, with the
            "public" section being the "for non-developers" section, and i could
            probably still work it that way, but you are most likely right. i have been
            developing the showcase with the developer in mind, and not the cybiko owner
            who doesnt give a damn about development.
            i dont think all is lost... the same set of data (or a slightly extended set
            of this data) can be used for both the developer side and the public side, i
            just need to add a provision to make the projects available to the public
            system, since not all of them will be available, especially the works in
            progress. then i just have to put together the public side (which will be a
            lot easier and faster than the development side), and i'll make the public
            side so that it doesn't require any sort of login, and instead key the
            reviews and feedback on IP addresses.

            >From: Marty Rabens <geotoon@...>
            >Reply-To: CybikoDev@yahoogroups.com
            >To: CybikoDev@yahoogroups.com
            >Subject: Re: [CybikoDev] The Showcase In Something of a Working Order
            >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 11:28:50 -0500
            >
            >This developer's showcase is an excellent idea, and I'm looking forward to
            >seeing it going live. However, I think it would be useful to have a
            >different
            >view of the data for end users who just want to download games and apps for
            >their cybiko. Picture this:
            >
            >I'm a cybiko owner who has no interest in programming. I'm just your
            >average,
            >insecure, hormone-charged teenager who bought a cybiko, and I'm looking for
            >someplace to download cool games and apps. Something besides the stuff
            >that
            >cybiko.com is trying to push at me. To me, a "developer" is that guy at
            >the
            >PhotoMat that gives me pictures after I give him film, and a "project" is
            >something they're making me do for a class at school. I'm not interested
            >in
            >betas, works-in-progress, half-finished demos, or developer's tools. I
            >just
            >want things that I can download and run, and will be useful or fun to me as
            >a
            >user. It would be nice if I could rate these programs, and see what other
            >people have rated them. News items I would be interested in might be
            >announcements of new games, or previews of upcoming games (without the
            >technical details of how they're being developed). Think gamespot.com,
            >only
            >for the cybiko.
            >
            >The direction the developer's showcase seems to be heading will make an
            >excellent site for developer's to admire each other's work, but doesn't
            >seem
            >to present the right frontend for users (who hopefully outnumber developers
            >by
            >a wide margin). As a developer, I would like to see a nice, centralized
            >site
            >for my finished application to be presented to end users. It wouldn't even
            >use words like "developer" or "projects." I think such a site and the
            >developer's showcase would make great "sister sites," but they'd need
            >different frontends, or "looks."
            >
            > Marty Rabens
            > marty <at> rabens <dot> com
            >
            >Ernest Pazera wrote:
            >
            > > Well, I've got the Showcase in a half-way working order. Files can now
            >be
            > > uploaded and projects can be made. While I have tested this quite
            >heavily
            > > during development, there is still much to be done, and there's already
            >a
            > > minor bug I need to fix (dealing with apostrophes and JScript).
            > >
            > > I'm at the point where I need some people who can hammer on the system a
            > > little bit, and tell me where it breaks, or when using something isnt as
            > > intuitive as it should be.
            > >
            > > http://www.cybikodev.com/showcase
            > >
            > > _________________________________________________________________
            > > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at
            >http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > CybikoDev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >
            >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            >CybikoDev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            >
            >
            >
            >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            >
            >
            >


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          • Marty Rabens
            ... It looks really sharp. I like the nice clean layout. It s very aesthetic, but practical. I m tired of websites that bury you in so much flash (no pun
            Message 5 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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              Ernest Pazera wrote:

              > >First, it looks beautiful, visually. I really like the colors and layout.
              > >Either you lied when you said you were "really bad" at web layout, or
              > >you've
              > >gotten someone very skilled to help.
              >
              > actually, i did all of that myself. its amazing what adding a little color
              > will do to help the look of tables. All i did was add BORDERCOLOR and
              > BGCOLOR to the various tags, and set the CELLSPACING to zero.

              It looks really sharp. I like the nice clean layout. It's very aesthetic, but
              practical. I'm tired of websites that bury you in so much flash (no pun
              intended) that you have to work to get to the information you're after. Your
              design presents all the pertinant information in an organized way, and looks
              good doing it.

              Here's a random observation about websites. (This doesn't really apply to the
              showcase yet since it's still in formative stages and doesn't have much actual
              content yet, but it's something to consider when it does go live.) Most
              websites about a particular topic have the news page as their home page. This
              is great for returning regulars. It's not very friendly, though, for first time
              visitors. I've been to billions of websites where I wasn't entirely clear what
              the website was all about, and all I was presented with was the latest news
              (about a topic I was still not very familiar with). I would click on "Home,"
              and find out that's where I already was. I would really have to search around
              to find any kind of introduction to what the site was all about, and often
              wouldn't find any such introduction. It would be nice if all these sites made
              the home page equally friendly to new visitors and return visitors (and not just
              some tiny "About" link hidden in a corner somewhere.) Like I said, this doesn't
              apply to the showcase in its current stage, but it's something to consider when
              it does go online.

              > >In News Moderation, I'm not sure why a moderator would need to change the
              > >"Submitted By" or "Approved By" fields.
              >
              > A moderator can't modify those directly (you are an administrator, and can).
              > A moderator can indirectly set the Approved By field by approving or
              > disapproving an item. A moderator doesnt even see the form you are talking
              > about, nor can he delete posts (the checkboxes arent even there for a
              > moderator). keep in mind that every level of user sees the site a bit
              > differently.

              My mistake. I thought I was seeing a moderator's view. I'm still not entirely
              sure why an administrator would want to change the Submitted By or Approved By
              fields. But I guess it never hurts to give the administrator options.

              Marty Rabens
              marty <at> rabens <dot> com
            • Marty Rabens
              ... Sounds like a good plan. When someone submits a project, it could have a checkbox for a finished project so it would also go on the user s site. They
              Message 6 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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                Ernest Pazera wrote:

                > i dont think all is lost... the same set of data (or a slightly extended set
                > of this data) can be used for both the developer side and the public side, i
                > just need to add a provision to make the projects available to the public
                > system, since not all of them will be available, especially the works in
                > progress. then i just have to put together the public side (which will be a
                > lot easier and faster than the development side), and i'll make the public
                > side so that it doesn't require any sort of login, and instead key the
                > reviews and feedback on IP addresses.

                Sounds like a good plan. When someone submits a project, it could have a
                checkbox for a "finished project" so it would also go on the user's site. They
                could also enter different descriptions for the dev's site and the user's site.
                The same could go for submitting news items - they could check dev's site,
                user's site, or both (which a moderator could override).

                I wouldn't see a problem with requiring users to log in to rate and review
                things. Pretty much all sites require this. I don't know how well using IPs
                works, since so many users have dynamic IPs. I think most users are used to
                logging in to rate or review things.

                Marty Rabens
                marty <at> rabens <dot> com
              • Ernest Pazera
                now that i ve thought about this some more, i dont think i ll have to make two separate sites, just show things differently for two different groups. one group
                Message 7 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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                  now that i've thought about this some more, i dont think i'll have to make
                  two separate sites, just show things differently for two different groups.
                  one group would consist of any user level lower than Developer(including
                  those people not logged in, which i've been terming the "public" user
                  level), and the other group consisting of developer or above. Since i
                  already have different content depending on user level built in, this won't
                  be particularly difficult. I think i can make it so that the public and
                  user level folks will be blissfully unaware of the rest of the content.

                  >From: Marty Rabens <geotoon@...>
                  >Reply-To: CybikoDev@yahoogroups.com
                  >To: CybikoDev@yahoogroups.com
                  >Subject: Re: [CybikoDev] The Showcase In Something of a Working Order
                  >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 14:37:21 -0500
                  >
                  >Ernest Pazera wrote:
                  >
                  > > i dont think all is lost... the same set of data (or a slightly extended
                  >set
                  > > of this data) can be used for both the developer side and the public
                  >side, i
                  > > just need to add a provision to make the projects available to the
                  >public
                  > > system, since not all of them will be available, especially the works in
                  > > progress. then i just have to put together the public side (which will
                  >be a
                  > > lot easier and faster than the development side), and i'll make the
                  >public
                  > > side so that it doesn't require any sort of login, and instead key the
                  > > reviews and feedback on IP addresses.
                  >
                  >Sounds like a good plan. When someone submits a project, it could have a
                  >checkbox for a "finished project" so it would also go on the user's site.
                  >They
                  >could also enter different descriptions for the dev's site and the user's
                  >site.
                  >The same could go for submitting news items - they could check dev's site,
                  >user's site, or both (which a moderator could override).
                  >
                  >I wouldn't see a problem with requiring users to log in to rate and review
                  >things. Pretty much all sites require this. I don't know how well using
                  >IPs
                  >works, since so many users have dynamic IPs. I think most users are used
                  >to
                  >logging in to rate or review things.
                  >
                  > Marty Rabens
                  > marty <at> rabens <dot> com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                  >CybikoDev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                  >
                  >
                  >


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                • Ernest Pazera
                  ... I m not much for glitzy sites either. and i don t believe in putting 50 thousand images on a page, either. i figure the banner on top and the screen
                  Message 8 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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                    >It looks really sharp. I like the nice clean layout. It's very aesthetic,
                    >but
                    >practical. I'm tired of websites that bury you in so much flash (no pun
                    >intended) that you have to work to get to the information you're after.
                    >Your
                    >design presents all the pertinant information in an organized way, and
                    >looks
                    >good doing it.

                    I'm not much for glitzy sites either. and i don't believe in putting 50
                    thousand images on a page, either. i figure the banner on top and the
                    screen shots when looking at the projects is enough, graphic wise. I'm
                    still debating whether or not to make the left menu imaage based or not.

                    >Here's a random observation about websites. (This doesn't really apply to
                    >the
                    >showcase yet since it's still in formative stages and doesn't have much
                    >actual
                    >content yet, but it's something to consider when it does go live.) Most
                    >websites about a particular topic have the news page as their home page.
                    >This
                    >is great for returning regulars. It's not very friendly, though, for first
                    >time
                    >visitors. I've been to billions of websites where I wasn't entirely clear
                    >what
                    >the website was all about, and all I was presented with was the latest news
                    >(about a topic I was still not very familiar with). I would click on
                    >"Home,"
                    >and find out that's where I already was. I would really have to search
                    >around
                    >to find any kind of introduction to what the site was all about, and often
                    >wouldn't find any such introduction. It would be nice if all these sites
                    >made
                    >the home page equally friendly to new visitors and return visitors (and not
                    >just
                    >some tiny "About" link hidden in a corner somewhere.) Like I said, this
                    >doesn't
                    >apply to the showcase in its current stage, but it's something to consider
                    >when
                    >it does go online.

                    when complete, default.asp will likely have the ten most recent news items,
                    a welcome message, and a list of the perhaps 10 most recently updated
                    projects in the showcase. i may instead have the highest rated projects, or
                    i might just do both.

                    >My mistake. I thought I was seeing a moderator's view. I'm still not
                    >entirely
                    >sure why an administrator would want to change the Submitted By or Approved
                    >By
                    >fields. But I guess it never hurts to give the administrator options.

                    at the moment, an administrator can change these values. when i'm
                    completely done, an administrator wont. my reasons for making it this way
                    at first was because I was designing Administrator as "god mode", and able
                    to do just about anything on the site. I later rethought that idea, and
                    made an even higher access level called Overlord, which is the real "god
                    mode" for the site, able to modify absolutely anything on the site(without
                    actually having to download and upload anything). There are some parts of
                    the site that even administrators cannot see (for example, I can edit the
                    user level list and add new levels and change their permission values on the
                    site). I think at this moment an admin can add and delete genres and
                    categories. when that part is done, admins will only be able to add, and
                    only Overlord will be able to delete. this stuff will all get worked out
                    when i clearly define the jobs of moderator and admin.



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                  • Marty Rabens
                    Sounds like a good idea. If you have any conflicts in the general design as to which group to lean toward, I would actually cater more to the non-developers,
                    Message 9 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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                      Sounds like a good idea. If you have any conflicts in the general design as to
                      which group to lean toward, I would actually cater more to the non-developers,
                      since they'll probably be the majority, and also less capable of finding their
                      own way around the site and figuring things out.

                      Ernest Pazera wrote:

                      > now that i've thought about this some more, i dont think i'll have to make
                      > two separate sites, just show things differently for two different groups.
                      > one group would consist of any user level lower than Developer(including
                      > those people not logged in, which i've been terming the "public" user
                      > level), and the other group consisting of developer or above. Since i
                      > already have different content depending on user level built in, this won't
                      > be particularly difficult. I think i can make it so that the public and
                      > user level folks will be blissfully unaware of the rest of the content.
                      >
                      > >From: Marty Rabens <geotoon@...>
                      > >Reply-To: CybikoDev@yahoogroups.com
                      > >To: CybikoDev@yahoogroups.com
                      > >Subject: Re: [CybikoDev] The Showcase In Something of a Working Order
                      > >Date: Sat, 01 Sep 2001 14:37:21 -0500
                      > >
                      > >Ernest Pazera wrote:
                      > >
                      > > > i dont think all is lost... the same set of data (or a slightly extended
                      > >set
                      > > > of this data) can be used for both the developer side and the public
                      > >side, i
                      > > > just need to add a provision to make the projects available to the
                      > >public
                      > > > system, since not all of them will be available, especially the works in
                      > > > progress. then i just have to put together the public side (which will
                      > >be a
                      > > > lot easier and faster than the development side), and i'll make the
                      > >public
                      > > > side so that it doesn't require any sort of login, and instead key the
                      > > > reviews and feedback on IP addresses.
                      > >
                      > >Sounds like a good plan. When someone submits a project, it could have a
                      > >checkbox for a "finished project" so it would also go on the user's site.
                      > >They
                      > >could also enter different descriptions for the dev's site and the user's
                      > >site.
                      > >The same could go for submitting news items - they could check dev's site,
                      > >user's site, or both (which a moderator could override).
                      > >
                      > >I wouldn't see a problem with requiring users to log in to rate and review
                      > >things. Pretty much all sites require this. I don't know how well using
                      > >IPs
                      > >works, since so many users have dynamic IPs. I think most users are used
                      > >to
                      > >logging in to rate or review things.
                      > >
                      > > Marty Rabens
                      > > marty <at> rabens <dot> com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > >CybikoDev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      > _________________________________________________________________
                      > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > CybikoDev-unsubscribe@egroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    • Marty Rabens
                      ... I like the menu the way it is (but maybe that s just me). ... Just make sure that welcome message is nice and big, and explains what the site is all about.
                      Message 10 of 11 , Sep 1, 2001
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                        > I'm not much for glitzy sites either. and i don't believe in putting 50
                        > thousand images on a page, either. i figure the banner on top and the
                        > screen shots when looking at the projects is enough, graphic wise. I'm
                        > still debating whether or not to make the left menu imaage based or not.

                        I like the menu the way it is (but maybe that's just me).

                        > when complete, default.asp will likely have the ten most recent news items,
                        > a welcome message, and a list of the perhaps 10 most recently updated
                        > projects in the showcase. i may instead have the highest rated projects, or
                        > i might just do both.

                        Just make sure that welcome message is nice and big, and explains what the site
                        is all about. ;o)
                        Hmmm... Most recent projects, or highest rated. Highest rated would be useful,
                        and give a good impression to first-time downloaders. Most recent would be more
                        dynamic, and give lesser-known programs their "15 minutes." Both would be nice,
                        but they'd probably have to be just a list of links (since the layout could be a
                        little crowded).

                        > I later rethought that idea, and
                        > made an even higher access level called Overlord, which is the real "god
                        > mode" for the site, able to modify absolutely anything on the site(without
                        > actually having to download and upload anything).

                        Overlord. Love that.

                        Marty Rabens
                        marty <at> rabens <dot> com
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