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Re: Fw: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Rick's comments

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  • Maria Cathcart
    We are interested in the Historical tour of Croatian. Would you happen to know if that something that is offered every fall? Maria ... From: Robert Jerin
    Message 1 of 6 , Sep 16 9:58 PM
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      We are interested in the Historical tour of Croatian. Would you happen to know if that something that is offered every fall?
      Maria


      --- On Tue, 9/14/10, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:

      From: Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...>
      Subject: Re: Fw: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Rick's comments
      To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com
      Cc: orlirva@...
      Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 5:30 PM







       









      To Rick

       

       What are your sources/data to support your views?



      Robert Jerin

      Croatian Heritage Museum

      Cleveland Ohio



      Here is a link to some examples of embroidery from women's caps from the  *17th* century from Croatia

       



      --- On Tue, 8/31/10, rickjs <orlirva@...> wrote:



      From: rickjs <orlirva@...>

      Subject: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Activity question

      To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

      Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:26 AM



       



      Many good links here!

      "Costume" does not bother me as a word for research, and in a way "folk dress" is more scary to me when we talk about 16th-17th C, because people tend to assume that modern folk dress derives from ancient sources, which is usually not the case, because (speaking in broad generalities) the fancy festival dress is usually a riff on city, upper class, or foreign dress, and often in a joking or even mocking spirit. Representations of common women's dress from before 1800 are hard to find, and some of the more recent folk dress in museams look little like the few pictures of older dress.



      Tanglwyst, Have you looked at the (better documented) balkan subjects of the Ottoman empire? They were subjects of Both german and turkish costume book studies made during the time.

      -Rick



      --- In CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:

      >

      > Obviously you if you are seeing clothing with French or Italian influences then you looking at upper classes in large cities.  In fact the peasants would have had distinctive clothing, often times changing from on village to the next.  These folk dress items would have been worn for festive and religious occassions with plainer clothing used on a daily basis  Here is a link for folk dress (shudder... the term costume is something for a clown or an actor!)

      >  

      > http://www.filmcostume.com/Links%20World.htm

      >  

      > But since this group is about CROATIAN HISTORY I know a bit more about Nosnja Narodna (folk dress) and am aware of many good resources (not least of which is my wife)  The Ethnographic Museum in Zagreb has a wonderful collection

      >  

      > http://www.etnografskimuzej.rs/e0401026.htm

      >  

      > Another link to a page which evidently has items for sale, but none the less very good

      >  

      > http://www.miriammilgram.com/StefniCollection/sa_hrvat.htm

      >  

      > In regards to shoes, in the cities one would see the occupation term of postolar, which is Eng shoemaker.... but I have seen parish records for Opancar.... someone who made the traditional peasant shoes  Again each place had their own style  Below is a link to opanci from eastern Europe including Bosnia (once known as Turkish Croatia)

      >  

      > http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm

      >  

      > And here is a link to our Croatian Heritage Museum, here in Cleveland Ohio, and our current exhibit featuring women's clothing (mostly wedding).  A great deal of research went into this exhibit

      >  

      > http://www.croatianmuseum.com/

      >

      > Robert Jerin

      > To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link

      >

      > http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf

      >

      > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...> wrote:

      >

      >

      > From: Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...>

      > Subject: RE: [CroatianHistory] Activity question

      > To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

      > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 12:14 PM

      >

      >

      >  

      >

      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

























      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Robert Jerin
      Probably the closest thing to this is my October tour, see link below Robert Jerin To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link
      Message 2 of 6 , Sep 17 4:05 AM
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        Probably the closest thing to this is my October tour, see link below

        Robert Jerin
        To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link

        http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf

        --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Maria Cathcart <maca110599@...> wrote:


        From: Maria Cathcart <maca110599@...>
        Subject: Re: Fw: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Rick's comments
        To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 12:58 AM


         



        We are interested in the Historical tour of Croatian. Would you happen to know if that something that is offered every fall?
        Maria

        --- On Tue, 9/14/10, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:

        From: Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...>
        Subject: Re: Fw: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Rick's comments
        To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com
        Cc: orlirva@...
        Date: Tuesday, September 14, 2010, 5:30 PM

         

        To Rick

         

         What are your sources/data to support your views?

        Robert Jerin

        Croatian Heritage Museum

        Cleveland Ohio

        Here is a link to some examples of embroidery from women's caps from the  *17th* century from Croatia

         

        --- On Tue, 8/31/10, rickjs <orlirva@...> wrote:

        From: rickjs <orlirva@...>

        Subject: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Activity question

        To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

        Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:26 AM

         

        Many good links here!

        "Costume" does not bother me as a word for research, and in a way "folk dress" is more scary to me when we talk about 16th-17th C, because people tend to assume that modern folk dress derives from ancient sources, which is usually not the case, because (speaking in broad generalities) the fancy festival dress is usually a riff on city, upper class, or foreign dress, and often in a joking or even mocking spirit. Representations of common women's dress from before 1800 are hard to find, and some of the more recent folk dress in museams look little like the few pictures of older dress.

        Tanglwyst, Have you looked at the (better documented) balkan subjects of the Ottoman empire? They were subjects of Both german and turkish costume book studies made during the time.

        -Rick

        --- In CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:

        >

        > Obviously you if you are seeing clothing with French or Italian influences then you looking at upper classes in large cities.  In fact the peasants would have had distinctive clothing, often times changing from on village to the next.  These folk dress items would have been worn for festive and religious occassions with plainer clothing used on a daily basis  Here is a link for folk dress (shudder... the term costume is something for a clown or an actor!)

        >  

        > http://www.filmcostume.com/Links%20World.htm

        >  

        > But since this group is about CROATIAN HISTORY I know a bit more about Nosnja Narodna (folk dress) and am aware of many good resources (not least of which is my wife)  The Ethnographic Museum in Zagreb has a wonderful collection

        >  

        > http://www.etnografskimuzej.rs/e0401026.htm

        >  

        > Another link to a page which evidently has items for sale, but none the less very good

        >  

        > http://www.miriammilgram.com/StefniCollection/sa_hrvat.htm

        >  

        > In regards to shoes, in the cities one would see the occupation term of postolar, which is Eng shoemaker.... but I have seen parish records for Opancar.... someone who made the traditional peasant shoes  Again each place had their own style  Below is a link to opanci from eastern Europe including Bosnia (once known as Turkish Croatia)

        >  

        > http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm

        >  

        > And here is a link to our Croatian Heritage Museum, here in Cleveland Ohio, and our current exhibit featuring women's clothing (mostly wedding).  A great deal of research went into this exhibit

        >  

        > http://www.croatianmuseum.com/

        >

        > Robert Jerin

        > To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link

        >

        > http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf

        >

        > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...> wrote:

        >

        >

        > From: Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...>

        > Subject: RE: [CroatianHistory] Activity question

        > To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

        > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 12:14 PM

        >

        >

        >  

        >

        >

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Robert Jerin
        To Rick  What are your sources/data to support your views? Refer to highlighted/underlined comments in your previous message Thank you Robert Jerin Croatian
        Message 3 of 6 , Sep 17 4:10 AM
        • 0 Attachment
          To Rick

           What are your sources/data to support your views? Refer to highlighted/underlined comments in your previous message
          Thank you

          Robert Jerin

          Croatian Heritage Museum

          Cleveland Ohio

          --- On Tue, 8/31/10, rickjs <orlirva@...> wrote:

          From: rickjs <orlirva@...>

          Subject: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Activity question

          To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

          Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:26 AM

           

          Many good links here!

          "Costume" does not bother me as a word for research, and in a way "folk dress" is more scary to me when we talk about 16th-17th C, because people tend to assume that modern folk dress derives from ancient sources, which is usually not the case, because (speaking in broad generalities) the fancy festival dress is usually a riff on city, upper class, or foreign dress, and often in a joking or even mocking spirit. Representations of common women's dress from before 1800 are hard to find, and some of the more recent folk dress in museams look little like the few pictures of older dress.

          Tanglwyst, Have you looked at the (better documented) balkan subjects of the Ottoman empire? They were subjects of Both german and turkish costume book studies made during the time.

          -Rick

          --- In CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:

          >

          > Obviously you if you are seeing clothing with French or Italian influences then you looking at upper classes in large cities.  In fact the peasants would have had distinctive clothing, often times changing from on village to the next.  These folk dress items would have been worn for festive and religious occassions with plainer clothing used on a daily basis  Here is a link for folk dress (shudder... the term costume is something for a clown or an actor!)

          >  

          > http://www.filmcostume.com/Links%20World.htm

          >  

          > But since this group is about CROATIAN HISTORY I know a bit more about Nosnja Narodna (folk dress) and am aware of many good resources (not least of which is my wife)  The Ethnographic Museum in Zagreb has a wonderful collection

          >  

          > http://www.etnografskimuzej.rs/e0401026.htm

          >  

          > Another link to a page which evidently has items for sale, but none the less very good

          >  

          > http://www.miriammilgram.com/StefniCollection/sa_hrvat.htm

          >  

          > In regards to shoes, in the cities one would see the occupation term of postolar, which is Eng shoemaker.... but I have seen parish records for Opancar.... someone who made the traditional peasant shoes  Again each place had their own style  Below is a link to opanci from eastern Europe including Bosnia (once known as Turkish Croatia)

          >  

          > http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm

          >  

          > And here is a link to our Croatian Heritage Museum, here in Cleveland Ohio, and our current exhibit featuring women's clothing (mostly wedding).  A great deal of research went into this exhibit

          >  

          > http://www.croatianmuseum.com/

          >

          > Robert Jerin

          > To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link

          >

          > http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf

          >

          > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...> wrote:

          >

          >

          > From: Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...>

          > Subject: RE: [CroatianHistory] Activity question

          > To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

          > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 12:14 PM

          >

          >

          >  

          >

          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Robert Jerin
          Sorry the highlighted underlined part of Rick s message did not show up in this post.... so here it is   Rick said because people tend to assume that modern
          Message 4 of 6 , Sep 17 4:15 AM
          • 0 Attachment
            Sorry the highlighted underlined part of Rick's message did not show up in this post.... so here it is
             
            Rick said " because people tend to assume that modern folk dress derives from ancient sources, which is usually not the case, because (speaking in broad generalities) the fancy festival dress is usually a riff on city, upper class, or foreign dress, and often in a joking or even mocking spirit. Representations of common women's dress from before 1800 are hard to find, and some of the more recent folk dress in museams look little like the few pictures of older dress."
             
            I would like to know which sources or sources and/or data on which you base these comments


            Robert Jerin
            To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link

            http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf

            --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:


            From: Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...>
            Subject: Re: Fw: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Second request for sources re Rick's comments
            To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com
            Cc: orlirva@...
            Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 7:10 AM


             





            To Rick

             What are your sources/data to support your views? Refer to highlighted/underlined comments in your previous message
            Thank you

            Robert Jerin

            Croatian Heritage Museum

            Cleveland Ohio

            --- On Tue, 8/31/10, rickjs <orlirva@...> wrote:

            From: rickjs <orlirva@...>

            Subject: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Activity question

            To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

            Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:26 AM

             

            Many good links here!

            "Costume" does not bother me as a word for research, and in a way "folk dress" is more scary to me when we talk about 16th-17th C, because people tend to assume that modern folk dress derives from ancient sources, which is usually not the case, because (speaking in broad generalities) the fancy festival dress is usually a riff on city, upper class, or foreign dress, and often in a joking or even mocking spirit. Representations of common women's dress from before 1800 are hard to find, and some of the more recent folk dress in museams look little like the few pictures of older dress.

            Tanglwyst, Have you looked at the (better documented) balkan subjects of the Ottoman empire? They were subjects of Both german and turkish costume book studies made during the time.

            -Rick

            --- In CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:

            >

            > Obviously you if you are seeing clothing with French or Italian influences then you looking at upper classes in large cities.  In fact the peasants would have had distinctive clothing, often times changing from on village to the next.  These folk dress items would have been worn for festive and religious occassions with plainer clothing used on a daily basis  Here is a link for folk dress (shudder... the term costume is something for a clown or an actor!)

            >  

            > http://www.filmcostume.com/Links%20World.htm

            >  

            > But since this group is about CROATIAN HISTORY I know a bit more about Nosnja Narodna (folk dress) and am aware of many good resources (not least of which is my wife)  The Ethnographic Museum in Zagreb has a wonderful collection

            >  

            > http://www.etnografskimuzej.rs/e0401026.htm

            >  

            > Another link to a page which evidently has items for sale, but none the less very good

            >  

            > http://www.miriammilgram.com/StefniCollection/sa_hrvat.htm

            >  

            > In regards to shoes, in the cities one would see the occupation term of postolar, which is Eng shoemaker.... but I have seen parish records for Opancar.... someone who made the traditional peasant shoes  Again each place had their own style  Below is a link to opanci from eastern Europe including Bosnia (once known as Turkish Croatia)

            >  

            > http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm

            >  

            > And here is a link to our Croatian Heritage Museum, here in Cleveland Ohio, and our current exhibit featuring women's clothing (mostly wedding).  A great deal of research went into this exhibit

            >  

            > http://www.croatianmuseum.com/

            >

            > Robert Jerin

            > To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link

            >

            > http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf

            >

            > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...> wrote:

            >

            >

            > From: Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@...>

            > Subject: RE: [CroatianHistory] Activity question

            > To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com

            > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 12:14 PM

            >

            >

            >  

            >

            >

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • rickjs
            Sorry, have not visited here recently. Folk costume is festival dress and not day to day or even regular special occasion dress. familiar folk costumes
            Message 5 of 6 , Sep 20 12:28 PM
            • 0 Attachment
              Sorry, have not visited here recently.
              "Folk costume" is festival dress and not day to day or even regular special occasion dress. familiar 'folk costumes' were a 19th Century invention, associated historically with the emancipation of the serf and improved economic conditions. These are festival garments, developed based on models from the burgers, nobility and western styles, and are highly ornamented. By design, they bore little resemblance to the then current and historic daily folk attire. In the sprit of fun (or as biting social satire) they would often grossly exagerate the affectations of current city fashion. I would say that's 'common knowledge' in historical dress research circles.

              This point is made explicitly by Turnau
              History of Dress in Central and Eastern Europe from the Sixteenth to the Eighteenth Century, Irena Turnau, trans I. Szymanski. Warsaw, 1991. Ubior Narodowy w Dawnej Rzeczypospolitej, Irena Turnau, Warsaw, 1991.

              but I have seen the same point made in other writings. That does not mean that these have no value as a clue for how people really dressed, but it does mean they have to be very carefully and critically compared to any actual pictures or artificts that may survive.

              Steriotyped expectaions are a real challenge to us reenactors, but are also an opportunity. For example this weekend I and some friends were 17th C Cossaks at a Ukrainian festival and we pissed a lot of people off because none of us wore sharovary - the long wide steriotypical 19th C. cossak pants. Several people volunteered that we looked *all wrong*. :) Why do we do such a thing? because not a single surviving picture from the 17th C., not one, of a 17th C. cossack has him wearing sharovary. Maybe some did, and I expect the fashion was starting around then... but we have a decent set of period iconographic evidence that the typical cossack wore tight pants or turkish style pants. Started some good conversations, anyway. (Some of my Ukrainian reenacting friends wear them anyway - just can't fight the image in their heads)

              --- In CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:
              >
              > Sorry the highlighted underlined part of Rick's message did not show up in this post.... so here it is
              >  
              > Rick said " because people tend to assume that modern folk dress derives from ancient sources, which is usually not the case, because (speaking in broad generalities) the fancy festival dress is usually a riff on city, upper class, or foreign dress, and often in a joking or even mocking spirit. Representations of common women's dress from before 1800 are hard to find, and some of the more recent folk dress in museams look little like the few pictures of older dress."
              >  
              > I would like to know which sources or sources and/or data on which you base these comments
              >
              >
              > Robert Jerin
              > To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link
              >
              > http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf
              >
              > --- On Fri, 9/17/10, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...> wrote:
              >
              >
              > From: Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...>
              > Subject: Re: Fw: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Second request for sources re Rick's comments
              > To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com
              > Cc: orlirva@...
              > Date: Friday, September 17, 2010, 7:10 AM
              >
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > To Rick
              >
              >  What are your sources/data to support your views? Refer to highlighted/underlined comments in your previous message
              > Thank you
              >
              > Robert Jerin
              >
              > Croatian Heritage Museum
              >
              > Cleveland Ohio
              >
              > --- On Tue, 8/31/10, rickjs <orlirva@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: rickjs <orlirva@...>
              >
              > Subject: [CroatianHistory] Womans costume Re: Activity question
              >
              > To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > Date: Tuesday, August 31, 2010, 11:26 AM
              >
              >  
              >
              > Many good links here!
              >
              > "Costume" does not bother me as a word for research, and in a way "folk dress" is more scary to me when we talk about 16th-17th C, because people tend to assume that modern folk dress derives from ancient sources, which is usually not the case, because (speaking in broad generalities) the fancy festival dress is usually a riff on city, upper class, or foreign dress, and often in a joking or even mocking spirit. Representations of common women's dress from before 1800 are hard to find, and some of the more recent folk dress in museams look little like the few pictures of older dress.
              >
              > Tanglwyst, Have you looked at the (better documented) balkan subjects of the Ottoman empire? They were subjects of Both german and turkish costume book studies made during the time.
              >
              > -Rick
              >
              > --- In CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Obviously you if you are seeing clothing with French or Italian influences then you looking at upper classes in large cities.  In fact the peasants would have had distinctive clothing, often times changing from on village to the next.  These folk dress items would have been worn for festive and religious occassions with plainer clothing used on a daily basis  Here is a link for folk dress (shudder... the term costume is something for a clown or an actor!)
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > http://www.filmcostume.com/Links%20World.htm
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > But since this group is about CROATIAN HISTORY I know a bit more about Nosnja Narodna (folk dress) and am aware of many good resources (not least of which is my wife)  The Ethnographic Museum in Zagreb has a wonderful collection
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > http://www.etnografskimuzej.rs/e0401026.htm
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > Another link to a page which evidently has items for sale, but none the less very good
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > http://www.miriammilgram.com/StefniCollection/sa_hrvat.htm
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > In regards to shoes, in the cities one would see the occupation term of postolar, which is Eng shoemaker.... but I have seen parish records for Opancar.... someone who made the traditional peasant shoes  Again each place had their own style  Below is a link to opanci from eastern Europe including Bosnia (once known as Turkish Croatia)
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > http://www.eliznik.org.uk/EastEurope/Costume/opinci.htm
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > And here is a link to our Croatian Heritage Museum, here in Cleveland Ohio, and our current exhibit featuring women's clothing (mostly wedding).  A great deal of research went into this exhibit
              >
              > >  
              >
              > > http://www.croatianmuseum.com/
              >
              > >
              >
              > > Robert Jerin
              >
              > > To learn about our Oct 2010 Heritage Trip to Croatia click on link
              >
              > >
              >
              > > http://www.kollander.com/docs/Bob-Jerin-Croatia-2010.pdf
              >
              > >
              >
              > > --- On Mon, 8/30/10, Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@> wrote:
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > > From: Catriona Morganosa <amre2me2@>
              >
              > > Subject: RE: [CroatianHistory] Activity question
              >
              > > To: CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com
              >
              > > Date: Monday, August 30, 2010, 12:14 PM
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > >  
              >
              > >
              >
              > >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
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              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
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