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Diary of a Janissary

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  • Rick Orli
    I look forward to conversations in this group. I just got my hands on the Diary of a Janissary , and the specific volume is side-by-side old czech and
    Message 1 of 4 , Dec 8, 2006
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      I look forward to conversations in this group. I just got my hands on
      the 'Diary of a Janissary', and the specific volume is side-by-side
      old czech and english. It may be of interest here because the 15th C.
      author was a Serbo-Croatian, and the book includes first hand accounts
      of events in the Baltics (incuding such as the Turkish battles with
      the real Count Dracula.)
      -Rick Orli
    • Robert Jerin
      he was Serbo-Croatian ??? There have never been a people known by this name. There was a term that came about in the 1800s after a conference at Vienna,
      Message 2 of 4 , Dec 8, 2006
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        "he was Serbo-Croatian"???  There have never been a people known by this name.  There was a term that came about in the 1800s after a conference at Vienna, that group Croatian and Serbian under a common "title" Serbian and Croatian commonly mis-named as Serbo-Croatian... but as in the 1800s when politics brought these 2 languages together politics has once again seperated them back to Serbian.... and Croatian.  If we compare Croatian and Serbian using Bell's criteria then we conclude they are indeed seperate languages
        speakers of the language perceive the variants as being different languages. If we compare
        Serbian and Croatian using Bell's seven criteria (1976) for language, we must conclude that
        they are, indeed, separate languages
        speakers of the language perceive the variants as being different languages. If we compare
        Serbian and Croatian using Bell's seven criteria (1976) for language, we must conclude that
        they are, indeed, separate languages
         
        The Jannissary you speak of was Konstantin Mihailovic of Ostrovica, which is in the heart of Serbia when one would find Serbs but not Croats
         
         
         
         
        Robert Jerin
        Croatian Heritage Museum
        Cleveland Ohio

        Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:
        I look forward to conversations in this group. I just got my hands on
        the 'Diary of a Janissary', and the specific volume is side-by-side
        old czech and english. It may be of interest here because the 15th C.
        author was a Serbo-Croatian, and the book includes first hand accounts
        of events in the Baltics (incuding such as the Turkish battles with
        the real Count Dracula.)
        -Rick Orli




        "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own facts", Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
      • Rick Orli
        OK OK I believe you, sorry. I was just trying to relate the story to the Croats, since the surviving 17th C versions of this work are in the Czech and Polish
        Message 3 of 4 , Dec 9, 2006
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          OK OK I believe you, sorry. I was just trying to relate the story
          to the Croats, since the surviving 17th C versions of this work are
          in the Czech and Polish language, a fact that is not very
          significant to the background of the author.
          But I might observe,
          1) it unlikely that a serb's world view in regard to the Turks would
          be different from a croat's, so if the book was approached with that
          in mind it would not make much difference.
          2) without knowing anything about Croatian and Serbian beyond the
          fact that I have a "serbo-croatian to english" dictionary on my
          bookshelf, I know that the differences between slavic languages in
          general has increased in the last 3-400 years. That in 1600
          bylorussian and ukrainian, ukrainian and polish, polish and czech,
          etc. were much more mutually comprehensable. Maybe there are cases
          where the languages are now closer, like ukrainian and russian
          (maybe Croatian and Serbian are like that, I don't know...but am
          curious).
          3) At the same time there were strong regional dialects in all
          languages, so big differences may not necessarily translate into
          claims of national identity (e.g. there were books and plays written
          in English dialect, usually from parts well away from london, around
          1600 that use a language that seems to have little in common with
          the tounge of Shakespere and the King James Bible. )
          -Rick Orli

          --- In CroatianHistory@yahoogroups.com, Robert Jerin <rjerin26@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > "he was Serbo-Croatian"??? There have never been a people known
          by this name. There was a term that came about in the 1800s after a
          conference at Vienna, that group Croatian and Serbian under a
          common "title" Serbian and Croatian commonly mis-named as Serbo-
          Croatian... but as in the 1800s when politics brought these 2
          languages together politics has once again seperated them back to
          Serbian.... and Croatian. If we compare Croatian and Serbian using
          Bell's criteria then we conclude they are indeed seperate languages
          > speakers of the language perceive the variants as being
          different languages. If we compare
          > Serbian and Croatian using Bell's seven criteria (1976) for
          language, we must conclude that
          > they are, indeed, separate languages
          > speakers of the language perceive the variants as being
          different languages. If we compare
          > Serbian and Croatian using Bell's seven criteria (1976) for
          language, we must conclude that
          > they are, indeed, separate languages
          >
          > The Jannissary you speak of was Konstantin Mihailovic of
          Ostrovica, which is in the heart of Serbia when one would find Serbs
          but not Croats
          >
          > http://www.myriobiblos.gr/texts/english/nicol_condeath.html
          >
          > http://facta.junis.ni.ac.yu/facta/pas/pas2003/pas2003-02.pdf
          >
          >
          http://www.ashgate.com/subject_area/downloads/sample_chapters/Crusade
          _of_Varna_Intro.pdf
          >
          > Robert Jerin
          > Croatian Heritage Museum
          > Cleveland Ohio
          >
          > Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:
          > I look forward to conversations in this group. I just
          got my hands on
          > the 'Diary of a Janissary', and the specific volume is side-by-
          side
          > old czech and english. It may be of interest here because the 15th
          C.
          > author was a Serbo-Croatian, and the book includes first hand
          accounts
          > of events in the Baltics (incuding such as the Turkish battles
          with
          > the real Count Dracula.)
          > -Rick Orli
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > "Everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but not their own
          facts", Sen. Daniel Patrick Moynihan
          >
        • Kresimir Zeravica
          ... Actually it would...even if we disregard the differences in the customs and religions between the Croats and the Serbs. At that time Serbia was completely
          Message 4 of 4 , Dec 9, 2006
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            --- Rick Orli <orlirva@...> wrote:

            > OK OK I believe you, sorry. I was just trying to
            > relate the story
            > to the Croats, since the surviving 17th C versions
            > of this work are
            > in the Czech and Polish language, a fact that is not
            > very
            > significant to the background of the author.
            > But I might observe,
            > 1) it unlikely that a serb's world view in regard to
            > the Turks would
            > be different from a croat's, so if the book was
            > approached with that
            > in mind it would not make much difference.

            Actually it would...even if we disregard the
            differences in the customs and religions between the
            Croats and the Serbs. At that time Serbia was
            completely under Ottoman rule while Croatia was still
            partially free of the Ottomans and still very much
            actively fighting against them. Also this is not a
            book written by a serb really but a turk of serbian
            descent...I mean that in the sense that it was written
            by a Janissary...someone who was kidnapped at a very
            early age (probably before 5-6 years of age) taken to
            Istanbull and rased as a moslem, religious fanatic. I
            use the term religious fanatic because that is what
            the Janissary were brainwashed to be. Another name
            commonly used for the Janissary was "the sons of the
            sultan" and they were renowned for their uotmost
            discipline and loyalty to the Sultan. This
            Janissaryzation process probably erased most of this
            fellows "serbdom".

            > 2) without knowing anything about Croatian and
            > Serbian beyond the
            > fact that I have a "serbo-croatian to english"
            > dictionary on my
            > bookshelf, I know that the differences between
            > slavic languages in
            > general has increased in the last 3-400 years. That
            > in 1600
            > bylorussian and ukrainian, ukrainian and polish,
            > polish and czech,
            > etc. were much more mutually comprehensable. Maybe
            > there are cases
            > where the languages are now closer, like ukrainian
            > and russian
            > (maybe Croatian and Serbian are like that, I don't
            > know...but am
            > curious).

            The reasons for the similarities between Croatian and
            Serbian were the changes that were induced through
            political manipulation and pressure form the
            pro-serbian governament in Yugoslavia (1,2 and 3)... a
            closeness which is not proof of closeness between
            Croats and Serbs racially or etnichally. A situation
            comparable I suppose with the situation that induced
            the speaking of english in for instance Wales Scotland
            and Ireland. All of which have partially common
            ancestry with the English but the modern construct of
            Britain is nonetheless a political one and not based
            on race or religion...as were the former constructs of
            the three Yugoslavias.

            > 3) At the same time there were strong regional
            > dialects in all
            > languages, so big differences may not necessarily
            > translate into
            > claims of national identity (e.g. there were books
            > and plays written
            > in English dialect, usually from parts well away
            > from london, around
            > 1600 that use a language that seems to have little
            > in common with
            > the tounge of Shakespere and the King James Bible. )
            > -Rick Orli

            And I agree with you here language is not always a
            sure sign of national difference but a nations
            language has always regional traits uncaracteristic to
            foerign languages.

            Croatian, however, is the official language that is
            spoken in Croatia..and some parts of the Check
            republic and Italy as well if I recall correctly...it
            has three major dialect groups...and probably several
            houndread local derivations and variations of these
            main three...some of them are similar to the official
            Serbian language and some of its dialects and others
            are so different from even the official Croatian
            language that I couldn't tell u myself what the heck
            is going on and I am a Croat born and raised...native
            speaker and so on.

            The main similarity and claims that the two languages
            are one, were due to a series of attempts organised
            with the intent to merge the two nations into one, by
            the kingdom of Yugoislavija, by the Serb royal family
            of Karadjordjevic...and then later on the communist
            governament from ww2 onwards has adopted the same
            tactic trying to erase the differences so as to gain a
            single etnically undivided, base country. And the book
            on your shelf bares the name of that attempt not the
            name of a nation or its language.

            The differences between the Serbs and Croats are
            actually most prominent in their phisionomyes (sp?) a,
            dare I say, ratial, features of which the most
            distinguished one is the "Croatian Bone" (shall we
            call it that?) but that is another story.

            I hope this made it a bit clearer for you...bud.

            Anyway, all this said I am very interested in this
            book of yours...please share it with us, any way u can.



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