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  • jan
    does anyone know what is the current price for plans from mr colomban and also is he willing sell to usa thanks
    Message 1 of 22 , Jun 7, 2006
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      does anyone know what is the current price for plans from mr colomban
      and also is he willing sell to usa thanks
    • Cary Grimm
      Hello Jan, I have a set of licenced plans I bought from Cambria, they cost me $ 550.00 in American money. I am willing to part with them for the same price
      Message 2 of 22 , Jun 7, 2006
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        Hello Jan,
        I have a set of licenced plans I bought from Cambria, they cost me $ 550.00 in American money. I am willing to part with them for the same price plus Postage if your interested since I don't have the time to build the CriCri, now that I have returned to school.
         I also have the drawings for the hander trailer that I will include in the sale.
                                                        
                                                                                        Thanks
                                                                                         Cary

        jan <jany77@...> wrote:
        does anyone know what is the current price for plans from mr colomban
        and also is he willing sell to usa thanks


      • Jan Safranek
        where are you located .what is include the plans any manual ,what is the serial number of those plans thanks Cary Grimm wrote:
        Message 3 of 22 , Jun 7, 2006
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          where are you located .what is include the plans any manual ,what is the serial number of those plans thanks

          Cary Grimm <woodwsprites@...> wrote:
          Hello Jan,
          I have a set of licenced plans I bought from Cambria, they cost me $ 550.00 in American money. I am willing to part with them for the same price plus Postage if your interested since I don't have the time to build the CriCri, now that I have returned to school.
           I also have the drawings for the hander trailer that I will include in the sale.
                                                          
                                                                                          Thanks
                                                                                           Cary

          jan <jany77@...> wrote:
          does anyone know what is the current price for plans from mr colomban
          and also is he willing sell to usa thanks



        • Cary Grimm
          Hi Jan, I am located in the city of Topeka, Kansas, and the plans include everything that Mr. Colomban put in them including manuals ect. plus some extras like
          Message 4 of 22 , Jun 7, 2006
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            Hi Jan,
            I am located in the city of Topeka, Kansas, and the plans include everything that Mr. Colomban put in them including manuals ect. plus some extras like the hanger trailer.
             I have not even opened up the whole package which if my memory is correct is about 40 sheets of drawings and is at least 30 pounds.
             If you want to talk about it tonight e-mail me your  phone number.
                                                                                               Thanks Cary

            Jan Safranek <jany77@...> wrote:
            where are you located .what is include the plans any manual ,what is the serial number of those plans thanks

            Cary Grimm <woodwsprites@...> wrote:
            Hello Jan,
            I have a set of licenced plans I bought from Cambria, they cost me $ 550.00 in American money. I am willing to part with them for the same price plus Postage if your interested since I don't have the time to build the CriCri, now that I have returned to school.
             I also have the drawings for the hander trailer that I will include in the sale.
                                                            
                                                                                            Thanks
                                                                                             Cary

            jan <jany77@...> wrote:
            does anyone know what is the current price for plans from mr colomban
            and also is he willing sell to usa thanks




          • kjetil volent
            Hi Jan, I just bought a set of plans in September 2005 and paid 465 EURO for everything (including shipping, plans, manuals etc). I live in Norway, so I had no
            Message 5 of 22 , Jun 7, 2006
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              Hi Jan,
               
              I just bought a set of plans in September 2005 and paid 465 EURO for everything (including shipping, plans, manuals etc). I live in Norway , so I had no problem getting the plans. If he will sell to the US , I don’t know. I’ve heard rumors that he wont….
               
              Good luck
              Kjetil


              jan <jany77@...> wrote:
              does anyone know what is the current price for plans from mr colomban
              and also is he willing sell to usa thanks


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            • MichelCÿfffff4tÿffffe9
              I live in Canada and He sais personnaly to me that Under no circumstances He would sell plans in north America, The reason is that even with signing a waiver
              Message 6 of 22 , Jun 8, 2006
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                I live in Canada and He sais personnaly to me that Under no circumstances He would sell plans in north America, The reason is that even with signing a waiver we dont take our responsibilities and when something goes wrong we make a lawsuit. Simple as that.
                 
                Regards

                kjetil volent <my_cricri@...> wrote:
                Hi Jan,
                I just bought a set of plans in September 2005 and paid 465 EURO for everything (including shipping, plans, manuals etc). I live in Norway , so I had no problem getting the plans. If he will sell to the US , I don’t know. I’ve heard rumors that he wont….
                Good luck
                Kjetil


                jan <jany77@...> wrote:
                does anyone know what is the current price for plans from mr colomban
                and also is he willing sell to usa thanks


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              • FDVS
                ... I have often wondered what comprises a Licensed Plan? a) How can you be sure a certain plan is licensed? Ie, if your plan is licensed, what appears on it
                Message 7 of 22 , Jun 9, 2006
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                  > I have a set of licenced plans


                  I have often wondered what comprises a Licensed Plan?

                  a) How can you be sure a certain plan is licensed? Ie, if your plan is
                  licensed, what appears on it to show you the difference between that
                  plan, and an unlicensed plan?
                  b) Who is the licensing body that oversees the administration of the
                  licenses?
                  c) Does the plans producer (in the case of the CriCri, Michel) have
                  anything to do with the assignment of these licenses?
                  d) What is the practical significance of using an unlicensed plan? Will
                  the US's FAA refuse to certify an experimental produced from an
                  unlicensed plan, or are there other ramifications of not having the
                  license associated with your plan?

                  Thanks!


                  Dave Taylor
                  Texas
                • Bob Stovall
                  I m not a lawyer but, as I understand that part of the law, the licensing of plans is contolled by the creator of the plans. It is a grant by the author to
                  Message 8 of 22 , Jun 10, 2006
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                    I'm not a lawyer but, as I understand that part of the law,  the licensing of plans is contolled by the creator of the plans. It is a grant by the author to the licensee to use those plans in accordance with the terms of the license, much as a playwright might grant a license to a theater company to perform one of his plays.

                    The FAA is concerned with airworthiness, not copyright issues.

                    FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:
                    > I have a set of licenced plans

                    I have often wondered what comprises a Licensed Plan?

                    a) How can you be sure a certain plan is licensed? Ie, if your plan is
                    licensed, what appears on it to show you the difference between that
                    plan, and an unlicensed plan?
                    b) Who is the licensing body that oversees the administration of the
                    licenses?
                    c) Does the plans producer (in the case of the CriCri, Michel) have
                    anything to do with the assignment of these licenses?
                    d) What is the practical significance of using an unlicensed plan? Will
                    the US's FAA refuse to certify an experimental produced from an
                    unlicensed plan, or are there other ramifications of not having the
                    license associated with your plan?

                    Thanks!

                    Dave Taylor
                    Texas

                    __________________________________________________
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                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                  • W David Doiron
                    ... Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans. What there can be is a licenced builder. The method Michel used was to issue the licence
                    Message 9 of 22 , Jun 10, 2006
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                      >FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:
                      >I have a set of licenced plans
                      >I have often wondered what comprises a Licensed Plan?
                      >Thanks! Dave Taylor Texas



                      >Bob Stovall <bstovall98@...> said:
                      >As I understand that part of the law, the licensing of
                      >plans is contolled by the creator of the plans. It is a
                      >grant by the author to the licensee to use those plans
                      >in accordance with the terms of the license.
                      >The FAA is concerned with airworthiness, not copyright issues.



                      Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                      What there can be is a licenced builder.
                      The method Michel used was to issue the licence numbers
                      in chronological order as a "FILE serial number".
                      The number was entered into a logbook he keeps in
                      his drafting room. The number was also written on the
                      "manual" and on the cover sheet of the plans.
                      Most importantly however was the single sheet of
                      paper with the licence itself. Duly filled in, signed and dated,
                      two originals were made;
                      the builder got one and Marie-Jeanne filed the other.

                      There may be a misconception that just because a
                      set of plans is NOT a bootleg copy, that it carries a
                      legitimate licence number with it.

                      Not quite.

                      Section 2.3 of the licence requires that transfer of
                      the licence include sending the transfer information
                      to Michel. That would be name and number of the
                      former licensee, and name, address, and profession
                      of the new licensee.
                      ( I have NO idea why Michel was interested in the
                      profession of the builders! )

                      Legitimate plans numbers are three or four digits,
                      such as: #123 or #1234.


                      So here is the conundrum:

                      If a number is six digits hyphenated, such as:
                      #12-0123, then it is a fake number that came from
                      Chris Heintz.
                      One set of real plans were taken and copied over
                      and over and the copies were sold by Zenair with
                      fake numbers and no licence.

                      Michel will have nothing to do with plans that have
                      fake numbers.
                      If you have a set of plans with a Heintz fake number,
                      they are already bootleg and you cannot get
                      a licence with them.

                      An unscrupulous person may think that since
                      Zenair plans are already stolen that there would
                      be no harm in making more copies of them.
                      Not true.
                      Michel feels that the harm that has already
                      been done cannot be undone, but making
                      more bootleg copies would be dishonest
                      and only make thing worse.

                      If you have a set of plans with a fake number,
                      you have no licence. But Michel thinks that since you
                      paid money in good faith,
                      you are entitled to build one CriCri.

                      As always, bon chance..David
                      -----------------------------------------------------------
                      W David Doiron <DDoiron@...>
                      -----------------------------------------------------------
                    • Andrew Wallace
                      Good info, thanks David. So how much for full plans / info / licence from Mr Colomban / Marie-Jeanne ?? Whats the contact details to request this please?
                      Message 10 of 22 , Jun 10, 2006
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                        Good info, thanks David.
                        So how much for full plans / info / licence from Mr Colomban / Marie-Jeanne ??
                        Whats the contact details to request this please?
                         
                        Thanks,
                        Andrew.
                         


                         
                        On 11/06/06, W David Doiron <DDoiron@...> wrote:

                        >FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:
                        >I have a set of licenced plans
                        >I have often wondered what comprises a Licensed Plan?
                        >Thanks! Dave Taylor Texas

                        >Bob Stovall <bstovall98@...> said:
                        >As I understand that part of the law, the licensing of
                        >plans is contolled by the creator of the plans. It is a
                        >grant by the author to the licensee to use those plans
                        >in accordance with the terms of the license.
                        >The FAA is concerned with airworthiness, not copyright issues.

                        Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                        What there can be is a licenced builder.
                        The method Michel used was to issue the licence numbers
                        in chronological order as a "FILE serial number".
                        The number was entered into a logbook he keeps in
                        his drafting room. The number was also written on the
                        "manual" and on the cover sheet of the plans.
                        Most importantly however was the single sheet of
                        paper with the licence itself. Duly filled in, signed and dated,
                        two originals were made;
                        the builder got one and Marie-Jeanne filed the other.

                        There may be a misconception that just because a
                        set of plans is NOT a bootleg copy, that it carries a
                        legitimate licence number with it.

                        Not quite.

                        Section 2.3 of the licence requires that transfer of
                        the licence include sending the transfer information
                        to Michel. That would be name and number of the
                        former licensee, and name, address, and profession
                        of the new licensee.
                        ( I have NO idea why Michel was interested in the
                        profession of the builders! )

                        Legitimate plans numbers are three or four digits,
                        such as: #123 or #1234.

                        So here is the conundrum:

                        If a number is six digits hyphenated, such as:
                        #12-0123, then it is a fake number that came from
                        Chris Heintz.
                        One set of real plans were taken and copied over
                        and over and the copies were sold by Zenair with
                        fake numbers and no licence.

                        Michel will have nothing to do with plans that have
                        fake numbers.
                        If you have a set of plans with a Heintz fake number,
                        they are already bootleg and you cannot get
                        a licence with them.

                        An unscrupulous person may think that since
                        Zenair plans are already stolen that there would
                        be no harm in making more copies of them.
                        Not true.
                        Michel feels that the harm that has already
                        been done cannot be undone, but making
                        more bootleg copies would be dishonest
                        and only make thing worse.

                        If you have a set of plans with a fake number,
                        you have no licence. But Michel thinks that since you
                        paid money in good faith,
                        you are entitled to build one CriCri.

                        As always, bon chance..David
                        ----------------------------------------------------------
                        W David Doiron <DDoiron@...>
                        ----------------------------------------------------------


                      • promark
                        There are many airplane plans being sold on eBay. They are scans of plans that are sold on CD s. Everyone knows that the sellers of these pland are not the
                        Message 11 of 22 , Jun 10, 2006
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                          There are many airplane plans being sold on eBay. They are scans of plans that are sold on CD's. Everyone knows that the sellers of these pland are not the designers nor are they the copyright holders. eBay will take no action unless the copyright holder initiates action, It is doubtful that Mr Colomban would ever take any action since he wants to avoid the North American courts, It is also possible that the seller would be operating under a stolen identity and be virtually impossible to trace to take action against. This may well be the fate of the CriCri plans in North America.
                          ----- Original Message -----
                          Sent: Saturday, June 10, 2006 5:58 PM
                          Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                          Good info, thanks David.
                          So how much for full plans / info / licence from Mr Colomban / Marie-Jeanne ??
                          Whats the contact details to request this please?
                           
                          Thanks,
                          Andrew.
                           


                           
                          On 11/06/06, W David Doiron <DDoiron@...> wrote:

                          >FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:
                          >I have a set of licenced plans
                          >I have often wondered what comprises a Licensed Plan?
                          >Thanks! Dave Taylor Texas

                          >Bob Stovall <bstovall98@...> said:
                          >As I understand that part of the law, the licensing of
                          >plans is contolled by the creator of the plans. It is a
                          >grant by the author to the licensee to use those plans
                          >in accordance with the terms of the license.
                          >The FAA is concerned with airworthiness, not copyright issues.

                          Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                          What there can be is a licenced builder.
                          The method Michel used was to issue the licence numbers
                          in chronological order as a "FILE serial number".
                          The number was entered into a logbook he keeps in
                          his drafting room. The number was also written on the
                          "manual" and on the cover sheet of the plans.
                          Most importantly however was the single sheet of
                          paper with the licence itself. Duly filled in, signed and dated,
                          two originals were made;
                          the builder got one and Marie-Jeanne filed the other.

                          There may be a misconception that just because a
                          set of plans is NOT a bootleg copy, that it carries a
                          legitimate licence number with it.

                          Not quite.

                          Section 2.3 of the licence requires that transfer of
                          the licence include sending the transfer information
                          to Michel. That would be name and number of the
                          former licensee, and name, address, and profession
                          of the new licensee.
                          ( I have NO idea why Michel was interested in the
                          profession of the builders! )

                          Legitimate plans numbers are three or four digits,
                          such as: #123 or #1234.

                          So here is the conundrum:

                          If a number is six digits hyphenated, such as:
                          #12-0123, then it is a fake number that came from
                          Chris Heintz.
                          One set of real plans were taken and copied over
                          and over and the copies were sold by Zenair with
                          fake numbers and no licence.

                          Michel will have nothing to do with plans that have
                          fake numbers.
                          If you have a set of plans with a Heintz fake number,
                          they are already bootleg and you cannot get
                          a licence with them.

                          An unscrupulous person may think that since
                          Zenair plans are already stolen that there would
                          be no harm in making more copies of them.
                          Not true.
                          Michel feels that the harm that has already
                          been done cannot be undone, but making
                          more bootleg copies would be dishonest
                          and only make thing worse.

                          If you have a set of plans with a fake number,
                          you have no licence. But Michel thinks that since you
                          paid money in good faith,
                          you are entitled to build one CriCri.

                          As always, bon chance..David
                          ----------------------------------------------------------
                          W David Doiron <DDoiron@...>
                          ----------------------------------------------------------


                        • W David Doiron
                          In , on 06/11/06 ... I m not sure of the latest price. (by the way, Marie-Jeanne is Michel s wife)
                          Message 12 of 22 , Jun 10, 2006
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                            In <80815e1c0606101558m4c52ef0fhd7f1de5140198c51@...>, on 06/11/06
                            at 10:58 AM, "Andrew Wallace" <kiwibird68@...> said:


                            >Good info, thanks David.
                            >So how much for full plans / info / licence from Mr Colomban /
                            >Marie-Jeanne ??
                            >Whats the contact details to request this please?
                            >Thanks, Andrew.


                            I'm not sure of the latest price.
                            (by the way, Marie-Jeanne is Michel's wife)
                            You must have an address outside of N. America
                            to place an order.

                            Amicalment...David
                            -----------------------------------------------------------
                            W David Doiron <DDoiron@...>
                            -----------------------------------------------------------
                          • W David Doiron
                            In , on 06/10/06 ... Maybe, but I would not encourage it or even be resigned to it...David ... W David Doiron
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jun 10, 2006
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                              In <03af01c68ce6$8661c940$6401a8c0@gcw>, on 06/10/06
                              at 06:35 PM, "promark" <promark@...> said:


                              >There are many airplane plans being sold on eBay. They are scans of plans
                              >that are sold on CD's. Everyone knows that the sellers of these plans are
                              >not the designers nor are they the copyright holders. eBay will take no
                              >action unless the copyright holder initiates action, It is doubtful that
                              >Mr Colomban would ever take any action since he wants to avoid the North
                              >American courts, It is also possible that the seller would be operating
                              >under a stolen identity and be virtually impossible to trace to take
                              >action against. This may well be the fate of the CriCri plans in North
                              >America.


                              Maybe, but I would not encourage it or
                              even be resigned to it...David
                              -----------------------------------------------------------
                              W David Doiron <DDoiron@...>
                              -----------------------------------------------------------
                            • FDVS
                              ... Thanks for clearing that up, David. May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site? Sounds like it is more of a moral issue
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
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                                > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                you.

                                PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                from plans shipped via France-->England-->Mexico-->USA?
                                You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                Dave
                              • Bob Stovall
                                Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no getting around his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
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                                  Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                  As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                  In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                  FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:

                                  > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                  > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                  Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                  May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                  Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                  you.

                                  PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                  distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                  And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                  susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                  from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                  You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                  only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                  Dave

                                  __________________________________________________
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                                  Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                  http://mail.yahoo.com

                                • promark
                                  Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
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                                    Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion to North American courts he is not likely to take any action for any reason. As a copyright holder I have taken action... agains one person and he has disappeared from the Yahoo groups. Remember the Coconut Cowboy?
                                     
                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:02 PM
                                    Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                    Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                    As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                    In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                    FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:


                                    > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                    > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                    Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                    May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                    Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                    you.

                                    PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                    distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                    And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                    susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                    from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                    You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                    only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                    Dave

                                    __________________________________________________
                                    Do You Yahoo!?
                                    Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                    http://mail.yahoo.com

                                  • Bob Stovall
                                    Perhaps someone should inform Microsoft of this technicality. They are vigorously bringing civil actions while the FBI is pursuing criminal actions against the
                                    Message 17 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
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                                      Perhaps someone should inform Microsoft of this technicality. They are vigorously bringing civil actions while the FBI is pursuing criminal actions against the targets of their (MS) civil actions for copyright violations.

                                      promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                      Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion to North American courts he is not likely to take any action for any reason. As a copyright holder I have taken action... agains one person and he has disappeared from the Yahoo groups. Remember the Coconut Cowboy?
                                       
                                      ----- Original Message -----
                                      Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:02 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                      Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                      As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                      In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                      FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:

                                      > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                      > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                      Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                      May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                      Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                      you.

                                      PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                      distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                      And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                      susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                      from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                      You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                      only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                      Dave

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                                    • promark
                                      Since I do not have 80 Billion dollars the FBI did not bat an eye. ... From: Bob Stovall To: CriCri@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:27 PM
                                      Message 18 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Since I do not have 80 Billion dollars the FBI did not bat an eye.
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:27 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                        Perhaps someone should inform Microsoft of this technicality. They are vigorously bringing civil actions while the FBI is pursuing criminal actions against the targets of their (MS) civil actions for copyright violations.

                                        promark <promark@...> wrote:

                                        Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion to North American courts he is not likely to take any action for any reason. As a copyright holder I have taken action... agains one person and he has disappeared from the Yahoo groups. Remember the Coconut Cowboy?
                                         
                                        ----- Original Message -----
                                        Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:02 PM
                                        Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                        Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                        As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                        In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                        FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:

                                        > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                        > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                        Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                        May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                        Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                        you.

                                        PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                        distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                        And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                        susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                        from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                        You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                        only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                        Dave

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                                      • Bob Stovall
                                        Then as an experienced participant you know that we have the best legal system that money can buy promark wrote: Since I do not have 80
                                        Message 19 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
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                                          Then as an experienced participant you know that we have the best legal system that money can buy


                                          promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                          Since I do not have 80 Billion dollars the FBI did not bat an eye.
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:27 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                          Perhaps someone should inform Microsoft of this technicality. They are vigorously bringing civil actions while the FBI is pursuing criminal actions against the targets of their (MS) civil actions for copyright violations.

                                          promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                          Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion to North American courts he is not likely to take any action for any reason. As a copyright holder I have taken action... agains one person and he has disappeared from the Yahoo groups. Remember the Coconut Cowboy?
                                           
                                          ----- Original Message -----
                                          Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:02 PM
                                          Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                          Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                          As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                          In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                          FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:

                                          > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                          > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                          Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                          May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                          Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                          you.

                                          PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                          distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                          And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                          susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                          from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                          You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                          only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                          Dave

                                          __________________________________________________
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                                          Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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                                        • promark
                                          I know. I am due in court at 2:00PM tomorrow ... From: Bob Stovall To: CriCri@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:44 PM Subject: Re: [CriCri]
                                          Message 20 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            I know. I am due in court at 2:00PM tomorrow
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:44 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                            Then as an experienced participant you know that we have the best legal system that money can buy


                                            promark <promark@...> wrote:

                                            Since I do not have 80 Billion dollars the FBI did not bat an eye.
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:27 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                            Perhaps someone should inform Microsoft of this technicality. They are vigorously bringing civil actions while the FBI is pursuing criminal actions against the targets of their (MS) civil actions for copyright violations.

                                            promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                            Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion to North American courts he is not likely to take any action for any reason. As a copyright holder I have taken action... agains one person and he has disappeared from the Yahoo groups. Remember the Coconut Cowboy?
                                             
                                            ----- Original Message -----
                                            Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:02 PM
                                            Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                            Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                            As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                            In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                            FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:

                                            > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                            > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                            Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                            May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                            Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                            you.

                                            PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                            distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                            And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                            susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                            from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                            You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                            only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                            Dave

                                            __________________________________________________
                                            Do You Yahoo!?
                                            Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                            http://mail.yahoo.com

                                            __________________________________________________
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                                            http://mail.yahoo.com

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                                          • Bob Stovall
                                            Then I wish you success. May The Law and The Facts all be in your favor and may the jury have the intelligence to see that. If the FBI won t make a case
                                            Message 21 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
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                                              Then I wish you success. May The Law and The Facts all be in your favor and may the jury have the intelligence to see that. If the FBI won't make a case against the party who stole  your intellectual property, then there should be a provision in the criminal code of your state that will allow you to involve the DA.

                                              Regards,

                                              Bob

                                              promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                              I know. I am due in court at 2:00PM tomorrow
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:44 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                              Then as an experienced participant you know that we have the best legal system that money can buy


                                              promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                              Since I do not have 80 Billion dollars the FBI did not bat an eye.
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:27 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                              Perhaps someone should inform Microsoft of this technicality. They are vigorously bringing civil actions while the FBI is pursuing criminal actions against the targets of their (MS) civil actions for copyright violations.

                                              promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                              Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion to North American courts he is not likely to take any action for any reason. As a copyright holder I have taken action... agains one person and he has disappeared from the Yahoo groups. Remember the Coconut Cowboy?
                                               
                                              ----- Original Message -----
                                              Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:02 PM
                                              Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                              Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                              As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                              In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                              FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:

                                              > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                              > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                              Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                              May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                              Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                              you.

                                              PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                              distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                              And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                              susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                              from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                              You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                              only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                              Dave

                                              __________________________________________________
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                                              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                              http://mail.yahoo.com

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                                              http://mail.yahoo.com

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                                              http://mail.yahoo.com

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                                            • promark
                                              This will have only a judge. It is a simple beef against an oil company over royalties that I inherited ... From: Bob Stovall To: CriCri@yahoogroups.com Sent:
                                              Message 22 of 22 , Jun 11, 2006
                                              • 0 Attachment
                                                This will have only a judge. It is a simple beef against an oil company over royalties that I inherited
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 10:04 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                                Then I wish you success. May The Law and The Facts all be in your favor and may the jury have the intelligence to see that. If the FBI won't make a case against the party who stole  your intellectual property, then there should be a provision in the criminal code of your state that will allow you to involve the DA.

                                                Regards,

                                                Bob

                                                promark <promark@...> wrote:

                                                I know. I am due in court at 2:00PM tomorrow
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:44 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                                Then as an experienced participant you know that we have the best legal system that money can buy


                                                promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                                Since I do not have 80 Billion dollars the FBI did not bat an eye.
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:27 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                                Perhaps someone should inform Microsoft of this technicality. They are vigorously bringing civil actions while the FBI is pursuing criminal actions against the targets of their (MS) civil actions for copyright violations.

                                                promark <promark@...> wrote:
                                                Copyright violations are not pursued in criminal court they are done in civil lawsuitw by the copyright holder as the plantif. Knowing the designers aversion to North American courts he is not likely to take any action for any reason. As a copyright holder I have taken action... agains one person and he has disappeared from the Yahoo groups. Remember the Coconut Cowboy?
                                                 
                                                ----- Original Message -----
                                                Sent: Sunday, June 11, 2006 9:02 PM
                                                Subject: Re: [CriCri] "Licenced" plans

                                                Since Michel owns all rights to the plans, there is no "getting around" his refusal. He may change his mind but that is up to him. Were he willing to sell them, I suppose that someone could buy the North America rights from him and provide him some sort of shield from liability but given the litigious nature of so many in N.A. and the tencency of lawyers to sue everybody that has ever been in the vacinity of one of their targets, he would probably be named in a suit eventually.

                                                As for legal vs moral, breach of the terms of the license is a civil matter. Unathorized copying of the plans is a criminal act just as making an unauthorized copy of MS Windows is. Both are immoral.

                                                In the matter of licensing issues, he could pursue a remedy in civil court. As for "bootleg" or otherwise unauthorized copying and use of the plans to build an aircraft, If Michel chose to pursue the matter, the FBI would be the investigatory agency. What a fun bunch of folks they would be to deal with.



                                                FDVS <wtxvets@...> wrote:

                                                > Actually there is no such thing as a set of licenced plans.
                                                > What there can be is a licenced builder.

                                                Thanks for clearing that up, David.
                                                May I add it to the Yahoo file I started (and is posted on the CriCri site?
                                                Sounds like it is more of a moral issue than a legal one if I understand
                                                you.

                                                PS I wonder how long til someone finds a way around Michel's refusal to
                                                distribute to future N.A. builders? You know how people are.
                                                And if there are any legal gurus here, I wonder if he would still be
                                                susceptible to a lawsuit if John Doe, USA......crashes a CriCri he built
                                                from plans shipped via France-->England- ->Mexico- ->USA?
                                                You know its going to happen. If people can't get what they want, it
                                                only makes them try harder, makes them get ingenious.

                                                Dave

                                                __________________________________________________
                                                Do You Yahoo!?
                                                Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
                                                http://mail.yahoo.com

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                                                http://mail.yahoo.com

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