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Re: [CreationTalk] Getting the Bible back into public schools

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  • Jacki Powell
    I would never advocate the Bible, God s Truth, be taught as a myth when I know its the only TRUTH! It may be taught as a myth and I have no control over that.
    Message 1 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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      I would never advocate the Bible, God's Truth, be taught as a myth when I know its the only TRUTH! It may be taught as a myth and I have no control over that. But I could not as a Christian advocate it be taught that way. That would be like me saying it is not true. I think that would be like denying the Lord. No, I cannot support this idea.

      The end DOES NOT justify the means. As Dr. Bob Jones said, "Its never right, to do wrong, in order to get a chance to do right." Yes, it would be good to have the Bible in school, but no, the way is not for all Christians to go about advocating that is just a myth.

      We must do right and leave the results to God.

      - Jacki Powell

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: David Rempel
      To: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 2:18 AM
      Subject: [CreationTalk] Getting the Bible back into public schools


      Seesh! Has if ever been a long time since I chatted here! I have an idea.

      Imangine Billy is in the 9th grade. He's reading the Holy Bible in the library of a public school and ISN'T being harassed. Not only that, but he's writing a report on it, he's already read several very large excepts, and probably will be helped towards extra credit if he reads a large number more of those important words.
      Well, aside from public school just going away and everyone going to the private christian schools (lets throw aside the guise of non bias for the moment, you want that, I want that), this would be a Christian's true dream for our education system.
      I came up with this idea while reading the Communist Manifesto for a school report. (Want a good laugh? Go ahead and read it for yourself... people fell for this? http://marx.thefreelibrary.com/Communist-Manifesto)
      Obviously I'm not about to even go socialist, in fact I'm just laughing my head off at it, but I AM reading it. I'm having to study it, comprehend it... and I have a deadline... beside the point... The communist manifesto and Mien Fink (Hitler's racist piece of junk) are both allowed to be read in public school, even though the nation has gone to two of its largest wars (two of the largest in history) to defeat the notions presented in those documents. They're respected like mythologies, windows into history. Certainly not as legitimate views... that's where this gets dicey. How many times have the athiest tried to get the Bible thaught in mythology class, whilst we rail for it to get it into science class? But both sides don't seem to realize, the results will be the same. I'm sure, as you all probably will agree, God's word can triumph over a few mind games, like being presented as a myth. And many of us being taught evolution in science class, are farmiliar with the concept that
      just because the professor says its true, doesn't mean the whole class believes it or will in the future.

      I'll spell it out, allow... no, find a way to (secretly perhaps, but maybe even publically) support the Bible being taught as a myth.

      Now I know. The athiest have worked quite hard to discredit the Bible, and they will no doubt include their theories. Think of this like a strategy. We are in a war after all. Each Christain child that goes through public school will be fully educated on the athiest arguements, and, if properly guided in the church and christian community (which unlike the communist and facist communites, is no where near extinct, nor has it lost too much influence), ready to face them as adults. (And we won't have to lift a finger for that first half! Our enemies will do it for us. Who better to inform our children of the lies than the liars themselves?) Meanwhile, the next generation of athiests has studied our arguements, right down to our precious founding documents, and when THEY grow up, they will be using those athiest arguements to win battles against us... but we'll already know those arguements as a consiquence of the fact that some of our children were right next to them in mythology and
      history class. They will be able to keep up with the modern preacher, and the modern preacher with them. This will create a common ground for a while, as the athiest begin to understand us, and Christianity will be alloted to be brought up even in casual conversation. Then it will give us the high ground, since no one studies hard to refute a known myth, right?

      I bring this up, because I know one of the main concerns here it getting represented in public school. Isn't that one of the main reasons for creation science? By all means we should continue to construct our arguements, but indeed, let our opponents teach us as myths. After all, we all know we can't rely on lairs to teach truths. If someone's going to be showing us as a lie, why not just accept the publicity? They'll expose us to the public, themselves to us, and for a short time, be worked into a position of complacency, thinking they have already won the fight. In the mean time, they will actually be the ones losing.

      Just an idea. I guess it all could be a little dreamy, or on the TGTBT side, but I'd still like some input.


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    • David Rempel
      I need to apologize first off, I did not mean to suggest we say the gospel is a lie or myth... but I did. That was wrong. Against me: A: I need to take a step
      Message 2 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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        I need to apologize first off, I did not mean to suggest we say the gospel is a lie or myth... but I did. That was wrong.

        Against me:
        A: I need to take a step back and rethink this part. True... we can't say its a lie or a myth or even advocate it be taught that way. Then we'd look two faced wouldn't we? You're right, we'd have to find a way not to profess the Gospel as a lie ourselves, aside from being a great sin, that wouldn't help in the end. Perhaps if we just didn't oppose it being taught that way. The goal is to get it in, ya know?

        Now in my defense:
        B: I understand what you're saying, but think about this. The Bible often talks about the greater good. It says thou shalt not kill, but the jews massacured the Cannanites, as per ordered by God. The purpose was to eliminate Cannanite influence and punish them for their numerous sins. It says do not lie... generally spies lie. When Rahab assisted the spies for Isreal in Jericho, she and her family were blessed by God and spared the punishment of her people. Had our ansestors in Rome not operated in secret, perhaps we would even have lost the Gospel entirely. These are not contradictions, but, they show that God believes in the greater good to.
        We could look at American history. The dropping of the A-bombs, the landing on the beach at Normandy (knowing many would be killed) The war on terror. Covert operations by the CIA world wide. We sacrifice, lie, kill, steal, but all for the cause of justice, freedom and defense.
        In every war, the greater good is to be put first. Jones was wrong.
        Of course, we are at war with the Devil and, so it would seem, sin itself, remember?

        And finally in reproach:
        C: Be careful how you say things. I would never say "leave the future to God". For whatever reason, God has chosen us to be his emmissaries, soldiers, students, governers and pretty much everything else. He has given us tremendous responsibilities, among them is never to be, sitting back and letting things happen. At least pray! But don't even think about just standing back. Just because we act, doesn't mean God's not involved to.
        I don't presume to say God can't handle himself, but our mission (preaching the gospel) is from God!

        Jacki Powell <jackipowell@...> wrote:
        I would never advocate the Bible, God's Truth, be taught as a myth when I know its the only TRUTH! It may be taught as a myth and I have no control over that. But I could not as a Christian advocate it be taught that way. That would be like me saying it is not true. I think that would be like denying the Lord. No, I cannot support this idea.

        The end DOES NOT justify the means. As Dr. Bob Jones said, "Its never right, to do wrong, in order to get a chance to do right." Yes, it would be good to have the Bible in school, but no, the way is not for all Christians to go about advocating that is just a myth.

        We must do right and leave the results to God.


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      • Teno Groppi
        ... We certainly should never offer the Bible as a myth, but if we offer them the Bible and *they* teach it as a myth, that s their error. God can still get
        Message 3 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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          >I need to apologize first off, I did not mean to suggest we say the gospel
          >is a lie or myth... but I did. That was wrong.

          We certainly should never offer the Bible as a myth, but if we
          offer them the Bible and *they* teach it as a myth, that's their error. God
          can still get glory from that:

          Php 1:16-18 The one preach Christ of contention, not sincerely, supposing
          to add affliction to my bonds: But the other of love, knowing that I am set
          for the defence of the gospel. What then? notwithstanding, every way,
          whether in *pretence*, or in truth, Christ is preached; and I therein do
          rejoice, yea, and will rejoice.


          Here, there, or in the air!
          Teno Groppi
          God & Country Center
          http://www.baptistlink.com/godandcountry/index.html

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Jacki Powell
          You cannot compare the Christians daily warfare with Satan with two nations at war. When nations are at war, yes, they lie, steal, etc. I don t say that
          Message 4 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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            You cannot compare the Christians daily "warfare" with Satan with two nations at war. When nations are at war, yes, they lie, steal, etc. I don't say that all that is right either. Its just done. I think Dr. Bob Jones statement is entirely correct, "It's NEVER right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right." And you are wrong my friend, the New Testament DOES NOT teach the end justifies the means. God will NEVER lead us the wrong way.

            If you will look carefully, I said "We must do right and leave the RESULTS to God."
            I am not advocating we do nothing! God holds us individually accountable to do right morally. We are not to look at an end result as being ok and justify wrong acts. I said we must do the right thing. But all results are truly in God's hands - not ours. Its a spiritual warfare. He will use us if we allow Him. I am sure we all want Him to use us in some capacity and He will. But the results are up to Him alone.

            As Tenno said, if we give the Bible as truth and someone takes it and teaches it as a myth, shame on them, but ... God's Word will not return void. But if I as a Christian give God's Word as a myth - shame on me!

            - Jacki Powell


            ----- Original Message -----
            From: David Rempel
            To: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:33 AM
            Subject: Re: [CreationTalk] Getting the Bible back into public schools


            I need to apologize first off, I did not mean to suggest we say the gospel is a lie or myth... but I did. That was wrong.

            Against me:
            A: I need to take a step back and rethink this part. True... we can't say its a lie or a myth or even advocate it be taught that way. Then we'd look two faced wouldn't we? You're right, we'd have to find a way not to profess the Gospel as a lie ourselves, aside from being a great sin, that wouldn't help in the end. Perhaps if we just didn't oppose it being taught that way. The goal is to get it in, ya know?

            Now in my defense:
            B: I understand what you're saying, but think about this. The Bible often talks about the greater good. It says thou shalt not kill, but the jews massacured the Cannanites, as per ordered by God. The purpose was to eliminate Cannanite influence and punish them for their numerous sins. It says do not lie... generally spies lie. When Rahab assisted the spies for Isreal in Jericho, she and her family were blessed by God and spared the punishment of her people. Had our ansestors in Rome not operated in secret, perhaps we would even have lost the Gospel entirely. These are not contradictions, but, they show that God believes in the greater good to.
            We could look at American history. The dropping of the A-bombs, the landing on the beach at Normandy (knowing many would be killed) The war on terror. Covert operations by the CIA world wide. We sacrifice, lie, kill, steal, but all for the cause of justice, freedom and defense.
            In every war, the greater good is to be put first. Jones was wrong.
            Of course, we are at war with the Devil and, so it would seem, sin itself, remember?

            And finally in reproach:
            C: Be careful how you say things. I would never say "leave the future to God". For whatever reason, God has chosen us to be his emmissaries, soldiers, students, governers and pretty much everything else. He has given us tremendous responsibilities, among them is never to be, sitting back and letting things happen. At least pray! But don't even think about just standing back. Just because we act, doesn't mean God's not involved to.
            I don't presume to say God can't handle himself, but our mission (preaching the gospel) is from God!

            Jacki Powell <jackipowell@...> wrote:
            I would never advocate the Bible, God's Truth, be taught as a myth when I know its the only TRUTH! It may be taught as a myth and I have no control over that. But I could not as a Christian advocate it be taught that way. That would be like me saying it is not true. I think that would be like denying the Lord. No, I cannot support this idea.

            The end DOES NOT justify the means. As Dr. Bob Jones said, "Its never right, to do wrong, in order to get a chance to do right." Yes, it would be good to have the Bible in school, but no, the way is not for all Christians to go about advocating that is just a myth.

            We must do right and leave the results to God.



            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • David Rempel
            Jacki, I cease to understand you. We are at war with the devil, and losing lives every day. Time is of the essence, we are the soldiers, and we must be willing
            Message 5 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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              Jacki, I cease to understand you.

              We are at war with the devil, and losing lives every day. Time is of the essence, we are the soldiers, and we must be willing to do whatever it takes to win.

              You compeletly ignored my references to the Old Testiment... I don't think I mentioned the New... why?

              You basically insulted our soldiers everywhere, calling their actions wrong, when I doubt very much you believe that, so you could continue your attack on me... why?

              My first line in my reproach was: "Be careful how you say things." I was attempting to give the impression that I knew this was a mistake in wording. You simply could have reworded. That was ignored... why?

              You continue as though I never corrected myself in the first paragraph of my reply... why?
              I do not wish to go into a huge arguement with you, calling eachother names and abandoning known truths simply to attack one another.

              Finally, it has bothered me a long time, just how does one address the calvinist-arminian view point when one no longer holds it, without trying to expose the entire myth or insulting the individual one is addressing? Whilst I know you, and so many whom speak like that, do not intend to call for inaction, it is indeed what they end up doing.

              Perhaps I should refer to our common ground. You do not believe in using God's behind the curtain aspect (behind all actions good and evil) to inspire inaction, I don't believe the aspect is really there. You say the results are in God's hands, but that we should act anyway, I say the future is not predestined, and we should act with God to determine it, here our disagreement seems void.

              Then finally you missquote Teno... why?
              Here's what he actually said "We certainly should never offer the Bible as a myth, but if we offer them the Bible and *they* teach it as a myth, that's their error. God can still get glory from that"

              Jacki Powell <jackipowell@...> wrote:
              You cannot compare the Christians daily "warfare" with Satan with two nations at war. When nations are at war, yes, they lie, steal, etc. I don't say that all that is right either. Its just done. I think Dr. Bob Jones statement is entirely correct, "It's NEVER right to do wrong in order to get a chance to do right." And you are wrong my friend, the New Testament DOES NOT teach the end justifies the means. God will NEVER lead us the wrong way.

              If you will look carefully, I said "We must do right and leave the RESULTS to God."
              I am not advocating we do nothing! God holds us individually accountable to do right morally. We are not to look at an end result as being ok and justify wrong acts. I said we must do the right thing. But all results are truly in God's hands - not ours. Its a spiritual warfare. He will use us if we allow Him. I am sure we all want Him to use us in some capacity and He will. But the results are up to Him alone.

              As Tenno said, if we give the Bible as truth and someone takes it and teaches it as a myth, shame on them, but ... God's Word will not return void. But if I as a Christian give God's Word as a myth - shame on me!

              - Jacki Powell


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: David Rempel
              To: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, June 01, 2005 6:33 AM
              Subject: Re: [CreationTalk] Getting the Bible back into public schools


              I need to apologize first off, I did not mean to suggest we say the gospel is a lie or myth... but I did. That was wrong.

              Against me:
              A: I need to take a step back and rethink this part. True... we can't say its a lie or a myth or even advocate it be taught that way. Then we'd look two faced wouldn't we? You're right, we'd have to find a way not to profess the Gospel as a lie ourselves, aside from being a great sin, that wouldn't help in the end. Perhaps if we just didn't oppose it being taught that way. The goal is to get it in, ya know?

              Now in my defense:
              B: I understand what you're saying, but think about this. The Bible often talks about the greater good. It says thou shalt not kill, but the jews massacured the Cannanites, as per ordered by God. The purpose was to eliminate Cannanite influence and punish them for their numerous sins. It says do not lie... generally spies lie. When Rahab assisted the spies for Isreal in Jericho, she and her family were blessed by God and spared the punishment of her people. Had our ansestors in Rome not operated in secret, perhaps we would even have lost the Gospel entirely. These are not contradictions, but, they show that God believes in the greater good to.
              We could look at American history. The dropping of the A-bombs, the landing on the beach at Normandy (knowing many would be killed) The war on terror. Covert operations by the CIA world wide. We sacrifice, lie, kill, steal, but all for the cause of justice, freedom and defense.
              In every war, the greater good is to be put first. Jones was wrong.
              Of course, we are at war with the Devil and, so it would seem, sin itself, remember?

              And finally in reproach:
              C: Be careful how you say things. I would never say "leave the future to God". For whatever reason, God has chosen us to be his emmissaries, soldiers, students, governers and pretty much everything else. He has given us tremendous responsibilities, among them is never to be, sitting back and letting things happen. At least pray! But don't even think about just standing back. Just because we act, doesn't mean God's not involved to.
              I don't presume to say God can't handle himself, but our mission (preaching the gospel) is from God!

              Jacki Powell <jackipowell@...> wrote:
              I would never advocate the Bible, God's Truth, be taught as a myth when I know its the only TRUTH! It may be taught as a myth and I have no control over that. But I could not as a Christian advocate it be taught that way. That would be like me saying it is not true. I think that would be like denying the Lord. No, I cannot support this idea.

              The end DOES NOT justify the means. As Dr. Bob Jones said, "Its never right, to do wrong, in order to get a chance to do right." Yes, it would be good to have the Bible in school, but no, the way is not for all Christians to go about advocating that is just a myth.

              We must do right and leave the results to God.



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            • Alan C
              ... I used to believe in that manifesto, and while his listed nine most important Communist Party platform goals have been achieved, or nearly so, there are
              Message 6 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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                >I came up with this idea while reading the Communist Manifesto for a school report. (Want a good laugh? Go ahead and read it for yourself... people fell for this? http://marx.thefreelibrary.com/Communist-Manifesto)
                >
                >
                I used to believe in that manifesto, and while his listed nine most
                important Communist Party platform goals have been achieved, or nearly
                so, there are fast getting the last one into place, the one about
                abolishing marriage. Karl Marx wanted to dedicate his Das Kapital to
                Charles Darwin, as a tie-in to the evolutionist/creationist debate.
                Also, someone said the first priority in education when Mao Tse Tung
                consolidated control in China was evolution, not even Marxism.

                >I'll spell it out, allow... no, find a way to (secretly perhaps, but maybe even publically) support the Bible being taught as a myth.
                >
                >
                First, the Bible is already being taught as a myth in the public
                schools, chiefly in the science class, but revisionist history, math,
                art, and everything else is already being discombobulated in favor of
                subtle anti-christianisms, including anti-creationism. There are
                frequent references to the Bible from that atheistic and "secularistic"
                perspective. So the proposed strategy is already being implemented.

                Second, there is already a Christian group that is going into schools
                and teaching the Bible as literature, with mixed success. I view even
                this as a strategy with mixed results. The Word will certainly not
                return void, but when they saw the boldness of Peter and John preaching
                the Gospel, they "took knowledge of them, that they had been with Jesus".

                Thirdly, any "secret" strategy by creationists to "sneak" anything into
                anywhere would be almost immediately discovered. In spite of the fact
                that many Christians in the world today, and most especially in the
                U.S., have been acting like "secret agents" (who would know?) for many
                decades, something like this would stay "secret" for about twenty
                seconds. They already ascribe secret agendas to creationists all over
                the place every time you bring up some real fact of science. Well, this
                one they might take to with some glee.

                Fourth, there isn't enough time or energy to waste with this. My
                "agenda" is to proclaim the truth and encourage others to share the
                Gospel, and in my personal case, I agree with Ken Ham and others that we
                oftentimes must start with the Creation message. I'm biased maybe toward
                the science evidence for Creation because it was a strong conviction
                that real world experiences and real science pointed to the Bible as
                fact, and it is liberating for Christians.

                Fifth, it might to more good to spread the word within churches
                themselves. Only a few weeks ago one Christian thanked me for
                strengthening his faith, because there were others *in his church* who
                were trying to compromise the Word with Creation, and a couple of simple
                points from me about the science lit up a fire in him.

                SIxth, I didn't do it, but in my children who are grown I can see the
                difference an all-around Christian education would make. So in my view,
                Biblical churches and creationists should make a lot more effort to take
                their children out of public schools and put them into Christian
                schools. I'm sorry, but the resources that went into a lot of glitzy
                zillion-dollar church buildings could have been better invested in the
                childrens' education. Even after-school programs. And Christian kids who
                become scientists are among the most powerful testimonies today.

                Seventh, I open my yap about this too much, I can't keep my mouth shut,
                it's such great spectacular fantastic good news it burns. Read the first
                couple of chapters of Jeremiah. Different message, but that's how it
                burns once you "get it".

                - Alan
              • Alan C
                ... Should read: ... his listed *ten* most important Communist Party platform goals have been achieved, or nearly so, there are fast getting the last one into
                Message 7 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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                  Small correction:

                  >...his listed nine most important Communist Party platform goals have been achieved, or nearly so, there are fast getting the last one into place, the one about
                  >abolishing marriage....
                  >
                  Should read:

                  ... his listed *ten* most important Communist Party platform goals have
                  been achieved, or nearly so, there are fast getting the last one into
                  place, the one about abolishing marriage.

                  - Alan
                • maryannstuart@juno.com
                  If they initiate it, or if they allow It in this way in retaliation for some better way that we are trying to initiate, then, by all means, pray that God will
                  Message 8 of 9 , Jun 1, 2005
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                    If they initiate it, or if they allow It in this way in retaliation for
                    some better way that we are trying to initiate, then, by all means, pray
                    that God will speak to teachers and students through His Word. By all
                    means, make the Word available everywhere possible. Pray for the Holy
                    Spirit to prepare minds and hearts to recieve It. Let the Light shine.
                    Don't hide It under any kind of bushel basket.
                    Of course, we would not state that we agree with the mythology teaching,
                    but would truthfully state that God's Word is Truth.
                    God and His Word are what is, in actuality, legal in this universe.
                    The enemy and a lack of the Word are the actual illegality.
                    MaryAnn Stuart


                    On Tue, 31 May 2005 23:18:46 -0700 (PDT) David Rempel
                    <creauturearcoaren@...> writes:
                    > Seesh! Has if ever been a long time since I chatted here! I have an
                    > idea.
                    > etc.....
                    >
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