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RE: [CreationTalk] Pioneer Anomaly not from Heat

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  • Chuck
    ... Yet another possibility is that the live in a bounded universe with the Earth near the center that is surrounded by a sphere of water as shown by Psalm
    Message 1 of 4 , Jun 25, 2013
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      > Dr. John Anderson claimed the Doppler and ranging data from

      >
      four spacecraft, Pioneer 10 & 11, Ulysses and Galileo, did not
      >
      seem to follow the laws of physics. Technicians beam a radiocolor=navy>
      >
      signal, whose frequency is set by a hydrogen maser clock,color=navy>
      >
      towards a deep space spacecraft. The spacecraft locks onto the
      >
      signal, multiplies it by the ratio 240/221 and beams it back.
      >
      Navigators compare the transmitted and received frequencies to
      >
      calculate the Doppler range rate. To determine the distance, the
      >
      earth-based transmitter adds a ranging signal to the carrier.
      >
      Timing the round trip gives the range. w:st="on">Anderson suggested that
      >
      something accelerates the spacecraft sun-ward atcolor=navy>
      >
      (8.74 ± 1.33)×10^−10 m/s². style='color:navy'>

      > Another possibility is that atomic clocks accelerated during

      >
      radio round trip. (The minimum round trip delay for acolor=navy>
      >
      spacecraft near Jupiter is one hour.style='color:navy'> The last contact with
      >
      Pioneer 10, the radio round trip tookstyle='color:navy'> 11 hours and 20 minutes).
      >
      Anderson calculated that seconds
      >
      might accelerate at (2.92 ± 0.44) × 10^-18 s/s². Seconds accelerate
      >
      relative to what? Relative to when the radio signals were generated
      >
      by atomic clocks hours ago.


      Yet another possibility is that the live in a bounded universe with the Earth near the center that is surrounded by a sphere of water as shown by Psalm 148. With space expanding as indicated by both observation and scripture in Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 44:24 and Zechariah 12:1. A Dr Humphreys this expansion would produce the observed affect.

      http://creation.com/images/journal_of_creation/vol21/5181creationist.pdf

      Psalm 148:1-6 (KJB)
      1  Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
      2  Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
      3  Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
      4  Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
      5  Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
      6  He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

      Isaiah 40:22 (KJB)   It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as
      grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:

      Isaiah 44:24 (KJB) Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the
      LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

      Zechariah 12:1 (KJB) The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel , saith the LORD, which
      stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man
      within him.

      > In 2011, Slava Turyshev, also from Jet Propulsion, suggested that

      >
      the Pioneer anomaly was caused by pressure from infrared light
      >
      emitted by the radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs).
      >
      Supposedly, infrared bounces off the back of the dish antenna.
      >
      If you stand off to the side of an infrared heater, you will feel
      >
      very little radiation because light travels in fairly straight lines.
      >
      The Pioneers used four hot RTGs bolted on the ends of trusses.
      >
      (Please examine the graphic courtesy Anderson and JPL). The
      >
      RTGs are located more that 6.5 feet beyond the edge of thecolor=navy>
      >
      dish antenna. They have six fins for radiating infrared out parallel
      >
      to the spacecraft’s direction of  travel. The RTG’s are located 120
      >
      degree apart. If the infrared were to tunnel through the RTG’s end
      >
      insulation and strike the backside of the antenna, it should precess
      >
      the craft in roll. Turyshev’s explanation ignores the anomaly in the
      >
      radically different Galileo and Ulysses spacecraft. Cassini showed
      >
      a much larger Doppler anomaly on the way to Saturn. However, it
      >
      uses electrical wheels for orienting the craft and these can incrementally
      >
      accelerate the craft. Here is a description of the Pioneer Anomaly:

      We are agreed on this point that the heat idea does not explain the anomaly

      http://creation.com/pioneer-anomaly-heat

      > Is it a coincidence that the Hubble ratio times the speed of [light] is only

      >
      slightly less than the estimate for the anomaly? The Hubble ratio is the
      >
      rate at which light from distant galaxies is alleged to shift in Doppler.
      >
      Supposedly the Doppler shift is caused by the expanding intergalactic vacuum
      >
      of spacetime. There is a much simpler explanation, not dependent on magical
      >
      vacuums that speculatively stretch light. The simple explanation is that atoms
      >
      change relationally as they age. The light clocks in countless early galaxies
      >
      pulsed at tiny fractions of the rate of modern atoms. 
      color=navy>

      The anomaly is actually 1.25 x the Hubble ratio times the speed of light. The can be shown to represent a gravitational potential of -0.42 c^2 for a bounded universe with the Earth near the center that is surrounded by a sphere of water.

      > How can we verify whether atoms are perpetual motion engines or not? The only

      >
      history that is visible as it happens is galactic history. We observe how the earliest
      >
      galaxies were often tiny and naked, evidently made of unformed matter. At many
      >
      ranges, we observe how the stars formed from the formless matter in galactic cores.
      >
      The stars continue to take up more space as they accelerate outwards, following
      >
      each other in lanes, as galaxies spread out into huge, dusty, local, growth spirals.

      I see you are still pushing you cosmology which is based entirely on the affect of reduction of resolution as galaxies get farter away.

       

       

       




    • Victor McAllister
      ... A. Ancient languages such as Greek and Hebrew used the word heaven for three places. The atmosphere, the stars and the place where angels live. B. This
      Message 2 of 4 , Jun 26, 2013
      • 0 Attachment
        On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 5:22 PM, Chuck <chuckpc@...> wrote:
         

        > Dr. John Anderson claimed the Doppler and ranging data from
        >
        four spacecraft, Pioneer 10 & 11, Ulysses and Galileo, did not
        >
        seem to follow the laws of physics. Technicians beam a radio
        >
        signal, whose frequency is set by a hydrogen maser clock,
        >
        towards a deep space spacecraft. The spacecraft locks onto the
        >
        signal, multiplies it by the ratio 240/221 and beams it back.
        >
        Navigators compare the transmitted and received frequencies to
        >
        calculate the Doppler range rate. To determine the distance, the
        >
        earth-based transmitter adds a ranging signal to the carrier.
        >
        Timing the round trip gives the range. Anderson suggested that
        >
        something accelerates the spacecraft sun-ward at
        >
        (8.74 ± 1.33)×10^−10 m/s².

        > Another possibility is that atomic clocks accelerated during
        >
        radio round trip. (The minimum round trip delay for a
        >
        spacecraft near Jupiter is one hour. The last contact with
        >
        Pioneer 10, the radio round trip took 11 hours and 20 minutes).
        >
        Anderson calculated that seconds
        >
        might accelerate at (2.92 ± 0.44) × 10^-18 s/s². Seconds accelerate
        >
        relative to what? Relative to when the radio signals were generated
        >
        by atomic clocks hours ago.


        Yet another possibility is that the live in a bounded universe with the Earth near the center that is surrounded by a sphere of water as shown by Psalm 148. With space expanding as indicated by both observation and scripture in Isaiah 40:22, Isaiah 44:24 and Zechariah 12:1. A Dr Humphreys this expansion would produce the observed affect.

        http://creation.com/images/journal_of_creation/vol21/5181creationist.pdf

        Psalm 148:1-6 (KJB)
        1  Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the heavens: praise him in the heights.
        2  Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.
        3  Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.
        4  Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be above the heavens.
        5  Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded, and they were created.
        6  He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made a decree which shall not pass.

        Excellent verse.
        A. Ancient languages such as Greek and Hebrew used the word heaven for  three places. The atmosphere, the stars and the place where angels live.
        B. This passage has all three. shmi e-shmim - singular heaven of the plural heavens. The only time the word heavens is singular is with respect to God's throne. Jesus came proclaiming the kingdom of the heavens (plural) not the kingdom of heaven.
        C. The Sun, Moon and stars. He has established a decree for eons and not he shall pass. Stars never blow up completely or ever go missing.
        D. The waters above the heavens is the ice that used to encircle the Earth. How did this ice get there? During day two when the atmosphere formed as waters above the atmosphere were separated by a spreading atmosphere. Read the Hebrew text, not modern translations http://godsriddle.org . Indeed we see in the Moon Enceladus the very process whereby Earth god it ice and its atomospehre going on right now today. This is supported by Proverbs 8:28 where the skies above were being made firm (infinitive). The world for skies here is not shamayim - but shchqim - more like clouds. Every minute about 20 house sized ancient snowballs hit the earth and are absorbed into our atmosphere. This suggests that a significant amount of ocean water came from this extra-terrestrial rain. (Remember that Earth's waters have a different isotope ratio than comets, so this is our own water returning to us, water that went into orbit around the Earth during day two).

        Isaiah 40:22 (KJB)   It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth, and the inhabitants thereof are as

        grasshoppers; that stretcheth out the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell in:


        In unbroken continuity He continues to stretch out the plural heavens - making them fine or spread out. In unbroken continuity He continues to spread out the plural heavens like a tent to dwell in. Billions of ancient galaxies were tiny and naked. We observe how the stars continue in unbroken continuity to come out and spread out as billions of spiral galaxies grew into huge, dusty, local growth spirals.
         

        Isaiah 44:24 (KJB) Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the
        LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

        God claims to actively and in unbroken continuity to make all things. He actively and in unbroken continuity spreads out the plural heavens. He actively and in unbroken continuity spreads out the Earth. Indeed the continents only fit together on a tiny globe, without major surface seas, exactly as described in the literal test of the Bible. A growing Earth is utterly unscientific, but it is very biblical - explained three times in the literal text.

        Zechariah 12:1 (KJB) The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which
        stretcheth forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of man
        within him.


        He continues in unbroken continuity to to lay the foundation of the Earth. He continues in unbroken continuity to stretch out the heavens.  Indeed, a global expansion seam keeps on forming new Earth crust as He continues to lay the foundations of the Earth. 

        > In 2011, Slava Turyshev, also from Jet Propulsion, suggested that
        >
        the Pioneer anomaly was caused by pressure from infrared light
        >
        emitted by the radioisotope thermoelectric generators (RTGs).
        >
        Supposedly, infrared bounces off the back of the dish antenna.
        >
        If you stand off to the side of an infrared heater, you will feel
        >
        very little radiation because light travels in fairly straight lines.
        >
        The Pioneers used four hot RTGs bolted on the ends of trusses.
        >
        (Please examine the graphic courtesy Anderson and JPL). The
        >
        RTGs are located more that 6.5 feet beyond the edge of the

        >
        dish antenna. They have six fins for radiating infrared out parallel

        >
        to the spacecraft’s direction of  travel. The RTG’s are located 120
        >
        degree apart. If the infrared were to tunnel through the RTG’s end
        >
        insulation and strike the backside of the antenna, it should precess
        >
        the craft in roll. Turyshev’s explanation ignores the anomaly in the
        >
        radically different Galileo and Ulysses spacecraft. Cassini showed
        >
        a much larger Doppler anomaly on the way to Saturn. However, it
        >
        uses electrical wheels for orienting the craft and these can incrementally
        >
        accelerate the craft. Here is a description of the Pioneer Anomaly:

        We are agreed on this point that the heat idea does not explain the anomaly

        http://creation.com/pioneer-anomaly-heat

        > Is it a coincidence that the Hubble ratio times the speed of [light] is only


        >
        slightly less than the estimate for the anomaly? The Hubble ratio is the
        >
        rate at which light from distant galaxies is alleged to shift in Doppler.
        >
        Supposedly the Doppler shift is caused by the expanding intergalactic vacuum

        >
        of spacetime. There is a much simpler explanation, not dependent on magical
        >
        vacuums that speculatively stretch light. The simple explanation is that atoms
        >
        change relationally as they age. The light clocks in countless early galaxies
        >
        pulsed at tiny fractions of the rate of modern atoms. 

        The anomaly is actually 1.25 x the Hubble ratio times the speed of light. The can be shown to represent a gravitational potential of -0.42 c^2 for a bounded universe with the Earth near the center that is surrounded by a sphere of water.

        The Hubble ratio is flexible. Different astronomers come up with different values and it has changed radically over the decades. Even if it were an accurate measure of how atomic clocks are accelerating, we cannot precisely  separate genuine Doppler from the acceleration of clocks. We can SEE how atomic clocks in billions of galaxies keep on accelerating as the stars came out from their formless matter state, exactly as in the literal text for creation.  The evidence that spiral galaxies (at many ranges) intrinsically grew from formless matter is the most powerful evidence for a literal version of creation. 

        > How can we verify whether atoms are perpetual motion engines or not? The only
        >
        history that is visible as it happens is galactic history. We observe how the earliest
        >
        galaxies were often tiny and naked, evidently made of unformed matter. At many
        >
        ranges, we observe how the stars formed from the formless matter in galactic cores.
        >
        The stars continue to take up more space as they accelerate outwards, following
        >
        each other in lanes, as galaxies spread out into huge, dusty, local, growth spirals.

        I see you are still pushing you cosmology which is based entirely on the affect of reduction of resolution as galaxies get farter away.

         

        You could easily become a Changing Earth Creationist, since you are quoting some verses that supports a changing earth cosmology. The impediment to accepting the Bible literally, rather than scientifically, is that one little dogma, the idea the Bible predicted for the last days, the notion that all things remain the same. It was upon the Catholic metaphysics, that the essence of substance is changeless, that modern physics was contrived. It is important to understand that the western concept of time was constructed on ideas about time invented by Catholic philosophers. Later, protestants - like Newton (who denied the divinity of Jesus) constructed their concept of linear time on the metaphysics of the Catholics. Yet with sight we observe that the clocks accelerate along with the spreading star streams.

        CEC expect God to get great glory when he reduces western science to folly, as He promises - to make foolish the wise of this age.

        Victor, Changing Earth Creationist 

         





      • Chuck
        ... http://creation.com/images/journal_of_creation/vol21/5181creationist.pdf ... None of which conflicts with any thing I said. ... Sounds like the Canopy
        Message 3 of 4 , Jun 28, 2013
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          >> Yet another possibility is that the live in a bounded universe

          >> with the Earth near the center that is surrounded by a sphere
          >> of water as shown by Psalm 148. With space expanding as
          >> indicated by both observation and scripture in Isaiah 40:22,
          >> Isaiah 44:24 and Zechariah 12:1. A Dr Humphreys this
          >> expansion would produce the observed affect.

          http://creation.com/images/journal_of_creation/vol21/5181creationist.pdf

           

          >>        Psalm 148:1-6 (KJB)

          >>        1  Praise ye the LORD. Praise ye the LORD from the

          >>        heavens: praise him in the heights.

          >>        2  Praise ye him, all his angels: praise ye him, all his hosts.

          >>        3  Praise ye him, sun and moon: praise him, all ye stars of light.

          >>        4  Praise him, ye heavens of heavens, and ye waters that be

          >>        above the heavens.

          >>        5  Let them praise the name of the LORD: for he commanded,

          >>        and they were created.

          >>        6  He hath also stablished them for ever and ever: he hath made

          >>        a decree which shall not pass.

           

          > Excellent verse.

          > A. Ancient languages such as Greek and Hebrew used the word

          > heaven for  three places. The atmosphere, the stars and the place
          > where angels live.

          > B. This passage has all three. shmi e-shmim - singular heaven of

          > the plural heavens. The only time the word heavens is singular is
          > with respect to God's throne. Jesus came proclaiming the kingdom
          > of the heavens (plural) not the kingdom of heaven.

          > C. The Sun, Moon and stars. He has established a decree for eons

          > and not he shall pass. Stars never blow up completely or ever go
          > missing.

           

          None of which conflicts with any thing I said.

           

          > D. The waters above the heavens is the ice that used to encircle the

          > Earth. How did this ice get there? During day two when the

          > atmosphere formed as waters above the atmosphere were separated
          > by a spreading atmosphere.

           

          Sounds like the Canopy theory.

           

          Genesis 1:6-8 (KJB)

          6  And God said, Let there be a firmament in the midst of the waters, and let it divide the waters from the waters.

          7  And God made the firmament, and divided the waters which were under the firmament from the waters which were above the firmament: and it was so.

          8  And God called the firmament Heaven. And the evening and the morning were the second day.

           

          First of all these verses are not limited to the atmosphere. Bother the Hebrew word “raqiya” and the English word “firmament” fit the General relativistic description of space but neither of them fit the Earth’s atmosphere. Further more Psalm 148:1-6 clearly indicates that the Water in question is above the stars which would place it at the edger of Universe as I described not encircling the Earth as you claim.

           

          Note that I am the one actually quoting from the Bible.

           

          >Read the Hebrew text, not modern translations.

           

          First of all I do not read modern translations which being from the Alexandrian texts are not true Bibles. The Bible I read is the King James Bible which unlike modern Alexandrian pseudo-bibles was not only translated from the Antioch texts which is the preserved New Testament Greek text but  translated by inspiration from God making it a perfect English translation of the Hebrew.

           

          Second I have looked at the Hebrew and it agrees with the King James Bible. No surprise!

           

          >  Indeed we see in the Moon Enceladus the very process whereby Earth go[t]

          >  it[s] ice and its atomospehre going on right now today.

           

          Enceladus is erupting subterranean water into space and that is not what it being described in Genesis 1:6-8. What is happening on Enceladus is more akin to the events of the Flood not day 2 of Creation.

           

          > This is supported by Proverbs 8:28 where the skies above were being made firm

          > (infinitive). The world for skies here is not shamayim - but shchqim -
          more like
          > clouds.

          Proverbs 8:28 (KJB) When he established the clouds above: when he strengthened the fountains of the deep:

           

          And as you can see God inspired word in English the King James Bible translates it as clouds. Thank you for showing that King James Bible right.  


          > Every minute about 20 house sized ancient snowballs hit the earth
          > and are absorbed into our atmosphere. This suggests that a significant
          > amount of ocean water came from this extra-terrestrial rain. (Remember
          > that Earth's waters have a different isotope ratio than comets, so this is
          > our own water returning to us, water that went into orbit around the Earth
          > during day two).

           

          Except that this ice is not coming from Orbit. However is probably some of the water removed from the Earth on day 2, though most of it would be at around 13.8 billion LY out in space,

           

          >> Isaiah 40:22 (KJB)   It is he that sitteth upon the circle of the earth,

          >> and the inhabitants thereof are as  grasshoppers; that stretcheth
          out
          >> the heavens as a curtain, and spreadeth them out as a tent to dwell
          in:

           

          > In unbroken continuity He continues to stretch out the plural heavens

          > - making them fine or spread out. In unbroken continuity He continues
          > to spread out the plural heavens like a tent to dwell in. Billions of
          > ancient galaxies were tiny and naked. growing Earth We observe how the
          stars continue
          > in unbroken continuity to come out and spread out as billions of spiral
          > galaxies grew into huge, dusty, local growth spirals.

           

          The Bible says nothing of the kind not in English, not in Hebrew, and Not in Greek. There is no bases for it in observation, since what you claim we observer is actually low resolution images of distant fully formed galaxies. This can be shown to be the case since those images can be replicated by reducing the resolution of near by galaxies to that of the more distant ones.

           

           Isaiah 40:22 dose however speak of the expansion of space which is literally a stretching out of the heavens (space).

           

          Isaiah 44:24 (KJB) Thus saith the LORD, thy redeemer, and he that formed thee from the womb, I am the

          LORD that maketh all things; that stretcheth forth the heavens alone; that spreadeth abroad the earth by myself;

           

          > God claims to actively and in unbroken continuity to make all things.

          > He actively and in unbroken continuity spreads out the plural heavens.
          > He actively and in unbroken continuity spreads out the Earth.

           

          This is fully consistent with both the expansion of space and plate tectonics.  The expansion of space is the spreading; or as God’s inspired inerrant word in English puts it; stretching of space. With plate tectonics not only is the sea floor being stretched but the continents as well.

           

          > Indeed the continents only fit together on a tiny globe, without major surface seas,

          The continents do not really fit together on a tiny globe. This claim is bogas.

          > exactly as described in the literal test of the Bible. A growing Earth is utterly
          > unscientific, but it is very biblical - explained three times in the
          literal text.

           

          Wrong again. No place the Bible speak of a growing Earth. Not in English not in Hebrew and not in Greek. You may think you see it there but that just shows that you don not understand Greek or Hebrew as well you think. Frankly you show hubris and arrogance to claim to know Greek and Hebrew better than the King James some of which were fluent in both as children.

           

          >> Zechariah 12:1 (KJB) The burden of the word of the LORD

          >> for Israel ,
          saith the LORD, which stretcheth forth the heavens,
          >> and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit
          >> of man within him.

           

          > He continues in unbroken continuity to to lay the foundation of the

          > Earth. He continues in unbroken continuity to stretch out the heavens.

          >  Indeed, a global expansion seam keeps on forming new Earth crust as

          > He continues to lay the foundations of the Earth. 

           

          All of which is fully consistent with both the expansion of space and plate tectonics.  The expansion of space is the spreading; or as God’s inspired inerrant word in English puts it; stretching of space. With plate tectonics new crust is continually being formed both in the oceanic and continental crusts bit with out your imaginary growing of the Earth.

           

          >>> Is it a coincidence that the Hubble ratio times the speed of [light]

          >>> is only slightly less than the estimate for the anomaly? The
          Hubble

          >>> ratio is the rate at which light from distant galaxies is alleged to

          >>> shift in Doppler. Supposedly the Doppler shift is caused by the
          >>> expanding intergalactic vacuum of space-time. There is a much
          >>> simpler explanation, not dependent on magical vacuums that
          >>> speculatively stretch light. The simple explanation is that atoms

          >>> change relationally as they age. The light clocks in countless early

          >>> galaxies pulsed at tiny fractions of the rate of modern atoms.

           

          >>The anomaly is actually 1.25 x the Hubble ratio times the speed of light.

          >> The can be shown to represent a gravitational potential of -0.42 c^2
          for
          >> a bounded universe with the Earth near the center that is surrounded
          by
          >> a sphere of water.

           

          > The Hubble ratio is flexible. Different astronomers come up with different

          > values and it has changed radically over the decades. Even if it were an
          > accurate measure of how, we cannot precisely
          >  separate genuine Doppler from the acceleration of clocks.
          color="#333399">

          Masking your need millions fold rate of accelerating atomic clocks a doppler shift would requires galaxies to be rushing towards us speeds would have to many times  the speed if light. Put simply the universe would have collapsed in on the Earth before the Flood, and possibly before Adam and Eve were created on day six. It is a little hard to be accurate when you have such a vague notion as your Changing Earth idea. But the point is that it would have collapsed long ago.

          > We can SEE how atomic clocks in billions of galaxies keep on accelerating
          > as the stars came out from their formless matter state, exactly as in the
          literal
          > text for creation.

          The literal text of the Bible says no such thing, not in any language not in English not in Hebrew and not in Greek.

           

          >  The evidence that spiral galaxies (at many ranges) intrinsically grew

          > from formless matter is the most powerful evidence for a literal version
          > of creation. 

           

          No your so called evidence is a joke. Your entire claim is misinterpreted low resolution images of distant fully formed galaxies. This can be shown to be the case since those images can be replicated by reducing the resolution of near by galaxies to that of the more distant ones, this is a fact of the technology used to obtain these images. I have explained it to you be for but you ignore it. The fact that you continue make this claim in the face of this fact as if it does not exist suggests that you are a liar, who is deliberately trying to deceive Christians into believing an obvious lie.

           

           

           

           

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