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Global Flood - an astronomical date

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  • Temlakos
    Today, the Center for Scientific Creation, and the Creation Science Hall of Fame, separately announced an astronomical fix for the date of the Global Flood.
    Message 1 of 5 , May 17, 2013
      Today, the Center for Scientific Creation, and the Creation Science Hall of Fame, separately announced an astronomical fix for the date of the Global Flood.

      You may read the CSC's announcement here,

      http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ212.html

      and the CSHOF's announcement here.

      http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/artifacts/global-flood-an-astronomical-date/

      This date for the Global Flood is the date that the five most clock-like of all comets, that astronomers have observed three or more times, were all at perihelion in the same year. Or they would have been at perihelion if comets existed before the Global Flood.

      Review: the Hydroplate Theory and its relevance to the problem

      Dr. Walter T. Brown Jr., Director of the CSC, explains the problem. According to his Hydroplate Theory, the Global Flood began when a subcrustal ocean, once ten miles deep underground, broke confinement and rushed out of the bowels of the earth, at hypersonic speed. This enormous jet of water carried large amounts of rock and mud with it. Some of it – amounting to less than one percent of the earth’s mass – escaped into outer space at speeds up to (and sometimes faster than) 32 miles per second.

      Anything moving faster than that, would go out of the solar system and never come back. But most of this material stayed in the solar system. Some of it, as it moved beyond the earth’s gravitational field, accreted into the dirty snowballs we call comets. The rock and mud tended to collect into the asteroids and meteoroids we see today.

      Critics sometimes accuse Dr. Brown of saying that the Global Flood launched fully formed comets into the sky. This is not correct. What is correct is that the Global Flood launched into space the material that later formed the comets.

      How to back-step a comet:

      Back-stepping a comet usually means calculating a comet’s momentum and every force (usually of gravity) acting on it, and projecting where that comet must have been, one day earlier. One then repeats the process, day after day after day. Modern computers can do this for any comet – up to three thousand years into the past. Not enough computing power in the universe exists to back-trace even one comet any further in time. Every such back-step is subject to an error, that grows exponentially.

      So to back-step a comet further than three thousand years ago, one starts with the most ancient known perihelion, or closest approach to the sun, and subtracts the comet’s period (or “cometary year”) from that date, as many times as the problem needs. One introduces an error with every subtraction, equal to the standard deviation of the period. This error varies as the square root of the number of subtractions, according to the Central Limit Theorem.

      One needs to observe and record a comet at least three times to compute the standard deviation of its period. The best five comets in the Catalog of Cometary Orbits of 2008, that have three or more observations and periods that do not change much between apparitions, are the Comets Swift-Tuttle, Halley, Pons-Brooks, Olbers, and Brorsen-Metcalf. For Comets Halley and Swift-Tuttle, Dr. Brown had available the results of computer simulations that accurately placed their earliest known perihelia well into the BC era.

      Result: the most likely date of the launch of all cometary matter, and therefore of the Global Flood, is: 3344.5 BC, ± 1 year. Dr. Brown assigns better than 96 percent confidence to this date.

      And how is this relevant?

      This date is actually “high summer of 3345 BC” and is the date for the closest approach to the sun. The true launch date would be in autumn of that summer, when the courses (or “trajectories”) of the comets would all intercept the earth.

      This date is within one year of a date I personally calculated for the Global Flood. To make this calculation, I worked backward from 562 BC, the year of the death of Nebuchadnezzar II (“the Great”) of Babylonia. From that date I subtracted (or rather, added):

      1. 450 years, through the histories of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, to the groundbreaking of Solomon’s Temple.
      2. 479 years (per I Kings 6:1) to the Exodus of Israel from Egypt.
      3. 430 years (per Exodus 12:40) to the entry of Israel (the nation and the man also known as Jacob) into Egypt.
      4. 290 years to the birth of Abraham.
      5. 130 years to the birth of Terah, Abraham’s father.
      6. 1000 years to the birth of Arpachshad (Arphaxad), according to the ages of Terah’s ancestors when each man sired his son, according to the Alexandrine manuscript of the Septuagint.
      7. 2 years to the Global Flood year, per Genesis 11:10.

      Result: 3343 BC as the year that Noah and his family disembarked from the Ark. The Global Flood itself would have broken out a year earlier.

      That's right: in me you see Dr. Brown's collaborator.

      Very shortly I will upload my matrix when I am sure that anyone would be able to use it properly to check my work. When that happens, you'll be able to follow this link:

      http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/artifacts/global-flood-an-astronomical-date/

      and look in that article for another link to my matrix. I tentatively plan to upload it as an Open Document Spreadsheet (.ods) and as a Microsoft Excel XML spreadsheet (.xslx).

      Dr. Brown will send his own data and program out upon request.

      This result is the first incontrovertible evidence, that can settle, once for all, several long-simmering disputes in Biblical chronology.

      More to the point: I defy any uniformitarian to explain why so many comets came together, if they did not in fact launch from Earth in that year.

      In about twenty years, more comets will appear before astronomers for the third time. If the Lord tarries, Dr. Brown will run his analysis again, using those comets to check against those he has already used. His analysis requres comets that have appeared at least three times, so that he can compute a standard deviation on their periods.

      Temlakos

    • Chuck
      So to get this to work you need to through out the Masoretic Hebrew text one which the Old Testament and whose source is known is based in favor of the so
      Message 2 of 5 , May 19, 2013

        So to get this to work you need to through out the Masoretic Hebrew text one which the Old Testament and whose source is known is based in favor of the so called Septuagint which a Greek translation out of Alexandria Egypt whose source is questionable. Good move since this requires assuming that every English copy of the Bible we have is bogus.


        From: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Temlakos
        Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 9:25 PM
        To: Creation Talk; OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [CreationTalk] Global Flood - an astronomical date

         

         

        Today, the Center for Scientific Creation, and the Creation Science Hall of Fame, separately announced an astronomical fix for the date of the Global Flood.

        You may read the CSC's announcement here,

        http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ212.html

        and the CSHOF's announcement here.

        http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/artifacts/global-flood-an-astronomical-date/

        This date for the Global Flood is the date that the five most clock-like of all comets, that astronomers have observed three or more times, were all at perihelion in the same year. Or they would have been at perihelion if comets existed before the Global Flood.

        Review: the Hydroplate Theory and its relevance to the problem

        Dr. Walter T. Brown Jr., Director of the CSC, explains the problem. According to his Hydroplate Theory, the Global Flood began when a subcrustal ocean, once ten miles deep underground, broke confinement and rushed out of the bowels of the earth, at hypersonic speed. This enormous jet of water carried large amounts of rock and mud with it. Some of it – amounting to less than one percent of the earth’s mass – escaped into outer space at speeds up to (and sometimes faster than) 32 miles per second.

        Anything moving faster than that, would go out of the solar system and never come back. But most of this material stayed in the solar system. Some of it, as it moved beyond the earth’s gravitational field, accreted into the dirty snowballs we call comets. The rock and mud tended to collect into the asteroids and meteoroids we see today.

        Critics sometimes accuse Dr. Brown of saying that the Global Flood launched fully formed comets into the sky. This is not correct. What is correct is that the Global Flood launched into space the material that later formed the comets.

        How to back-step a comet:

        Back-stepping a comet usually means calculating a comet’s momentum and every force (usually of gravity) acting on it, and projecting where that comet must have been, one day earlier. One then repeats the process, day after day after day. Modern computers can do this for any comet – up to three thousand years into the past. Not enough computing power in the universe exists to back-trace even one comet any further in time. Every such back-step is subject to an error, that grows exponentially.

        So to back-step a comet further than three thousand years ago, one starts with the most ancient known perihelion, or closest approach to the sun, and subtracts the comet’s period (or “cometary year”) from that date, as many times as the problem needs. One introduces an error with every subtraction, equal to the standard deviation of the period. This error varies as the square root of the number of subtractions, according to the Central Limit Theorem.

        One needs to observe and record a comet at least three times to compute the standard deviation of its period. The best five comets in the Catalog of Cometary Orbits of 2008, that have three or more observations and periods that do not change much between apparitions, are the Comets Swift-Tuttle, Halley, Pons-Brooks, Olbers, and Brorsen-Metcalf. For Comets Halley and Swift-Tuttle, Dr. Brown had available the results of computer simulations that accurately placed their earliest known perihelia well into the BC era.

        Result: the most likely date of the launch of all cometary matter, and therefore of the Global Flood, is: 3344.5 BC, ± 1 year. Dr. Brown assigns better than 96 percent confidence to this date.

        And how is this relevant?

        This date is actually “high summer of 3345 BC” and is the date for the closest approach to the sun. The true launch date would be in autumn of that summer, when the courses (or “trajectories”) of the comets would all intercept the earth.

        This date is within one year of a date I personally calculated for the Global Flood. To make this calculation, I worked backward from 562 BC, the year of the death of Nebuchadnezzar II (“the Great”) of Babylonia . From that date I subtracted (or rather, added):

        1. 450 years, through the histories of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, to the groundbreaking of Solomon’s Temple .
        2. 479 years (per I Kings 6:1) to the Exodus of Israel from Egypt .
        3. 430 years (per Exodus 12:40) to the entry of Israel (the nation and the man also known as Jacob) into Egypt .
        4. 290 years to the birth of Abraham.
        5. 130 years to the birth of Terah, Abraham’s father.
        6. 1000 years to the birth of Arpachshad (Arphaxad), according to the ages of Terah’s ancestors when each man sired his son, according to the Alexandrine manuscript of the Septuagint.
        7. 2 years to the Global Flood year, per Genesis 11:10.

        Result: 3343 BC as the year that Noah and his family disembarked from the Ark. The Global Flood itself would have broken out a year earlier.

        That's right: in me you see Dr. Brown's collaborator.

        Very shortly I will upload my matrix when I am sure that anyone would be able to use it properly to check my work. When that happens, you'll be able to follow this link:

        http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/artifacts/global-flood-an-astronomical-date/

        and look in that article for another link to my matrix. I tentatively plan to upload it as an Open Document Spreadsheet (.ods) and as a Microsoft Excel XML spreadsheet (.xslx).

        Dr. Brown will send his own data and program out upon request.

        This result is the first incontrovertible evidence, that can settle, once for all, several long-simmering disputes in Biblical chronology.

        More to the point: I defy any uniformitarian to explain why so many comets came together, if they did not in fact launch from Earth in that year.

        In about twenty years, more comets will appear before astronomers for the third time. If the Lord tarries, Dr. Brown will run his analysis again, using those comets to check against those he has already used. His analysis requres comets that have appeared at least three times, so that he can compute a standard deviation on their periods.

        Temlakos

      • Temlakos
        Well, Chuck, that source might be known--but it s a later source, and as I understand it, they who created the Masoretic Text destroyed every other Hebrew or
        Message 3 of 5 , May 19, 2013
          Well, Chuck, that source might be known--but it's a later source, and as I understand it, they who created the Masoretic Text destroyed every other Hebrew or Aramaic text they could lay hands on.

          Except that maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls predate that.

          Can you explain the convergence of perihelia at 3344.5 BC any other way?

          Temlakos

          On 05/19/2013 05:03 PM, Chuck wrote:

          So to get this to work you need to through out the Masoretic Hebrew text one which the Old Testament and whose source is known is based in favor of the so called Septuagint which a Greek translation out of Alexandria Egypt whose source is questionable. Good move since this requires assuming that every English copy of the Bible we have is bogus.


          From: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com ] On Behalf Of Temlakos
          Sent: Friday, May 17, 2013 9:25 PM
          To: Creation Talk; OriginsTalk@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [CreationTalk] Global Flood - an astronomical date

           

           

          Today, the Center for Scientific Creation, and the Creation Science Hall of Fame, separately announced an astronomical fix for the date of the Global Flood.

          You may read the CSC's announcement here,

          http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ212.html

          and the CSHOF's announcement here.

          http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/artifacts/global-flood-an-astronomical-date/

          This date for the Global Flood is the date that the five most clock-like of all comets, that astronomers have observed three or more times, were all at perihelion in the same year. Or they would have been at perihelion if comets existed before the Global Flood.

          Review: the Hydroplate Theory and its relevance to the problem

          Dr. Walter T. Brown Jr., Director of the CSC, explains the problem. According to his Hydroplate Theory, the Global Flood began when a subcrustal ocean, once ten miles deep underground, broke confinement and rushed out of the bowels of the earth, at hypersonic speed. This enormous jet of water carried large amounts of rock and mud with it. Some of it – amounting to less than one percent of the earth’s mass – escaped into outer space at speeds up to (and sometimes faster than) 32 miles per second.

          Anything moving faster than that, would go out of the solar system and never come back. But most of this material stayed in the solar system. Some of it, as it moved beyond the earth’s gravitational field, accreted into the dirty snowballs we call comets. The rock and mud tended to collect into the asteroids and meteoroids we see today.

          Critics sometimes accuse Dr. Brown of saying that the Global Flood launched fully formed comets into the sky. This is not correct. What is correct is that the Global Flood launched into space the material that later formed the comets.

          How to back-step a comet:

          Back-stepping a comet usually means calculating a comet’s momentum and every force (usually of gravity) acting on it, and projecting where that comet must have been, one day earlier. One then repeats the process, day after day after day. Modern computers can do this for any comet – up to three thousand years into the past. Not enough computing power in the universe exists to back-trace even one comet any further in time. Every such back-step is subject to an error, that grows exponentially.

          So to back-step a comet further than three thousand years ago, one starts with the most ancient known perihelion, or closest approach to the sun, and subtracts the comet’s period (or “cometary year”) from that date, as many times as the problem needs. One introduces an error with every subtraction, equal to the standard deviation of the period. This error varies as the square root of the number of subtractions, according to the Central Limit Theorem.

          One needs to observe and record a comet at least three times to compute the standard deviation of its period. The best five comets in the Catalog of Cometary Orbits of 2008, that have three or more observations and periods that do not change much between apparitions, are the Comets Swift-Tuttle, Halley, Pons-Brooks, Olbers, and Brorsen-Metcalf. For Comets Halley and Swift-Tuttle, Dr. Brown had available the results of computer simulations that accurately placed their earliest known perihelia well into the BC era.

          Result: the most likely date of the launch of all cometary matter, and therefore of the Global Flood, is: 3344.5 BC, ± 1 year. Dr. Brown assigns better than 96 percent confidence to this date.

          And how is this relevant?

          This date is actually “high summer of 3345 BC” and is the date for the closest approach to the sun. The true launch date would be in autumn of that summer, when the courses (or “trajectories”) of the comets would all intercept the earth.

          This date is within one year of a date I personally calculated for the Global Flood. To make this calculation, I worked backward from 562 BC, the year of the death of Nebuchadnezzar II (“the Great”) of Babylonia . From that date I subtracted (or rather, added):

          1. 450 years, through the histories of the Kingdoms of Israel and Judah, to the groundbreaking of Solomon’s Temple .
          2. 479 years (per I Kings 6:1) to the Exodus of Israel from Egypt .
          3. 430 years (per Exodus 12:40) to the entry of Israel (the nation and the man also known as Jacob) into Egypt .
          4. 290 years to the birth of Abraham.
          5. 130 years to the birth of Terah, Abraham’s father.
          6. 1000 years to the birth of Arpachshad (Arphaxad), according to the ages of Terah’s ancestors when each man sired his son, according to the Alexandrine manuscript of the Septuagint.
          7. 2 years to the Global Flood year, per Genesis 11:10.

          Result: 3343 BC as the year that Noah and his family disembarked from the Ark. The Global Flood itself would have broken out a year earlier.

          That's right: in me you see Dr. Brown's collaborator.

          Very shortly I will upload my matrix when I am sure that anyone would be able to use it properly to check my work. When that happens, you'll be able to follow this link:

          http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/artifacts/global-flood-an-astronomical-date/

          and look in that article for another link to my matrix. I tentatively plan to upload it as an Open Document Spreadsheet (.ods) and as a Microsoft Excel XML spreadsheet (.xslx).

          Dr. Brown will send his own data and program out upon request.

          This result is the first incontrovertible evidence, that can settle, once for all, several long-simmering disputes in Biblical chronology.

          More to the point: I defy any uniformitarian to explain why so many comets came together, if they did not in fact launch from Earth in that year.

          In about twenty years, more comets will appear before astronomers for the third time. If the Lord tarries, Dr. Brown will run his analysis again, using those comets to check against those he has already used. His analysis requres comets that have appeared at least three times, so that he can compute a standard deviation on their periods.

          Temlakos


        • Victor McAllister
          ... predicts for the last days - that all things remain the same. We observe just what
          Message 4 of 5 , May 19, 2013
            On Fri, May 17, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Temlakos <temlakos@...> wrote:
             

            Today, the Center for Scientific Creation, and the Creation Science Hall of Fame, separately announced an astronomical fix for the date of the Global Flood.

            You may read the CSC's announcement here,

            http://www.creationscience.com/onlinebook/FAQ212.html

            and the CSHOF's announcement here.

            http://creationsciencehalloffame.org/artifacts/global-flood-an-astronomical-date/

            This date for the Global Flood is the date that the five most clock-like of all comets, that astronomers have observed three or more times, were all at perihelion in the same year. Or they would have been at perihelion if comets existed before the Global Flood.

            Unfortunately this theory is based on the first law (arche kitiseous) the Bible predicts for the last days - that all things remain the same. We observe just what Peter states, that the heavens are ek palai - came out long ago. Peter also mentions that the Earth was inundated twice. Genesis says He continued to form the Sun, Moon and stars and continues to place them in the raqiya - the spreading place. He continues in unbroken continuity to spread out the heavens. He continues to call the stars to come out, yet none go missing. (We observe in galactic history how the star streams accelerate outwards as billions of galaxies grew into huge growth spirals).

            Evidently the same things happened here locally. All ancient people accept close planet passages and the shattering of a nearby planet. Indeed, the Bible mentions both kinds of events during the age of the judges. The optical parallax to the Sun has continued to decrease for over 2,000 years, even in the last 60 years. In a universe where the creation is enslaved to change  - even creationists cannot invent valid mathematical theories - because even mathematics fails when every atom is observed to change relationally throughout cosmic history.

            Comets and asteroids are remnants of shattered planets. They have irregular shapes, long cliffs and many of them have potato shapes, like shattered planet pieces. They contain crystals that on Earth form deep underground under volcanic conditions. They also contain sedimentary rocks, as one would expect if a great watery planet was shattered close to Earth. Both objects came from watery planet that was shattered not long after the flood.

            I agree with Brown that the oceans were subterranean before the flood, since the Bible plainly talks about how the waters were all gathered into one place - the tehom. The Bible also mentions how the Earth continues to stretch out in unbroken continuity, something scientists find great difficulty with, even though a great global expansion seam runs through every ocean. The ocean floors are younger than the continents. The continents only fit together on a tiny globe, just like one would expect from the literal text of the Bible.

            Why did God make a universe where science itself will fail? He does not allow anyone to come to know Him through logic and science, only by the faith of a worthless sinner who trusts Him alone for salvation. He even commands us in the imperative not to seek to be wise in this age because He is taking the wise in their own skills. He intends to get a great victory over western science. How will it happen? Visible galactic history only fits the literal text of creation, not the latinized traditional exegesis that interpret creation with the western ideas about time.

            Victor, Changing Earth Creationist

          • Chuck
            ... I have encountered that claim before not even from sources the hate the Masoretic Text and would have gladly exploited it. While it is true that the
            Message 5 of 5 , May 20, 2013

              > Well, Chuck, that source might be known--but it's a later source,

              > and as I understand it, they who created the Masoretic Text
              > destroyed every other Hebrew or Aramaic text they could lay hands on.

              >  

              > Except that maybe the Dead Sea Scrolls predate that.

               

              I have encountered that claim before not even from sources the hate the Masoretic Text and would have gladly exploited it.

               

              While it is true that the Masoretic Text itself is more recent than the Septuagint, that does make the more accurate. The Masoretic Text is simply the Hebrew Old Testament in an updated script. The Septuagint is a translation of questionable origin from Alexandria Egypt , the place from which among other heresies Gnosticism originated.

               

              You also can not ignore that fact that claiming that the Septuagint is more authentic than the Masoretic requires assuming that every English copy of the Bible we have is bogus. It is also a theory that makes God look incompetent being incapable of accurately preserving and transmitting his word not to mention making God a liar.

              Matthew 24:35

              Mark 13:31

              Luke 21:33

              Psalm 12:6-7

               

              > Can you explain the convergence of perihelia at 3344.5 BC any other way?

               

              Fist of all we are only talking about 2 major comets, reaching perihelia this year and probably at least 3 smaller more distant ones. So frankly it would not be a particularly low probability event that could just be a coincidence. That of course assumes that the converges is real, I ran Dr. Brown's calculations for my self and found no convergences. In fact not on of them had a perihelia in 3344 B.C.

               

              Pons-Brooks had a perihelia 3281 B.C. and 3352 B.C.

              Olbers has a perihelia 3319 B.C. and 3391 B.C.

              Brorsen-Metcalf had a perihelia 3326 BC and3402 B.C.

              Halley has a perihelia 33051 B.C and 3381 B.C.

              Swift-Tuttle has a perihelia 3316 B.C. and 3447 B.C.

               

              Not one of these is with in Dr. Brown's margins of error. I honestly can not reproduce his results using his data and the process he describes. So how do I explain the convergence of perihelia at 3344.5 B.C.? Based on my calculations it never happened.

               

               

               

               

               

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