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Re: [CreationTalk] Information Universe and the Bible.

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  • Victor McAllister
    ... You are following the traditional Catholic version of creation and using their Latin words for evidence. The Bible does not use the word beginning.
    Message 1 of 3 , Jan 22, 2013
      On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Chuck <chuckpc@...> wrote:
       

      http://scienceray.com/physics/information-universe-and-the-bible/

       

      This is part sixteen of the Information Universe series. See the link for part one.

       

      http://scienceray.com/physics/the-information-universe/

       

      There a number of ways in which the Information Universe is a perfect fit the Bible. It fist well with the concept of God creating the universe out of nothing, as well as God speaking the universe into existence. It shows how the miracles mentioned Bible are possible and much more. While the following discussion dose refer to and quote the Bible it is primarily about physics and what the Information Universe says about the physics behind Biblical events.

       

      The Bible teaches that God created the universe out of nothing. The term used for this generally is creation ex nihilo. “ex nihilo” is Latin meaning “out of nothing. This is implied right from the beginning literally from the first verse.

       

      Genesis 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.


      You are following the traditional Catholic version of creation and using their Latin words for evidence. The Bible does not use the word beginning. Bereshit means first in importance and precedence.   Moses clearly gives a two step process for Creation. He finished creating formless multiple places first - then later gave form to them by continuing to command light to continue to be. Please refer to the Hebrew - not the hide bound Latin interpretations.

      The word the heaven here refers outer space not only the objects that are out there but the space it self. As a result there would be no place for any thing to exist. Further more we have mater, space and time beginning in the same verse showing that God created all three at the same instant. This implies creation of all three out of nothing.

       


      No one had even invented the concept of space when the Bible was written and time (as an actuality) was not invented until after the pagan philosopher Plotinus influenced the Catholic philosopher Augustine. AUgustine invented the notion that God created time in the beginning. You will not find such a statement in the Bible. You will find the statement that time is in our minds, according to Solomon. TIme has no existence either for man or God. It was the Catholics who invented the notion that God is outside of time but we are swept along in its flow.


       

         Hebrews 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

       

      This verse from the New Testament is more explicit indicating that all things were not made from physical entities. Even atoms can be seen and the fundamental particles that make them up can be detected so we have creation out of nothing. The Information Universe is consistent with this idea even though it was not developed for that purpose. 


      Here again you are using the traditional Catholic exegesis. What the text says is that he formed the plural eons  (the vast ages) out of things not seen.

      Hebrews 11:1 - 3 tells us that faith is the underling support for the assurance of hope, the proof of things not seen. "By faith we understand (we continue to exercise our minds) that the aionas (the plural eons) were prepared by the command of God." The verb "prepared" is perfect, passive infinitive showing that He did not actively create eons by creating time. He created something long ago which produced the plural eons passively. The Bible never states that God created time. He passively prepared the plural eons out of things that do not appear.

      The fact that the plural eons exist is visible, since we can see the past back to the beginning in hundreds of billions of ancient galaxies. However, there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of time. We also observe the very sequence that Moses gave, how the plural heavens were created first before teh stars began to form and continue to spread out, exactly as in the literal Hebrew. The Catholic exegesis of creation is clearly violated by the visible history of how the galaxies formed, which fits the literal text like a glove..

       

      Further more several times in Genesis 1 shows God speaking things into existence such as.

       

      Genesis 1:3 (KJV) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

       

      Again you are using the Catholic, Latinized exegesis based on the Catholic metaphysics that the essence of substance is changeless, therefore time is also changeless. The Hebrew uses imperfect verbs.  He contues to speak for light to continue to be.

      We also in Hebrews 11:3 that the universe was formed by “the word of God.”

       

      Hebrews 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which are seen were not made of things which do appear.

       

      This verses show God speaking, that it putting out information and there by creating things. When the creator of a video game programs the game he is putting out information into the program to create the video’s game. That world is literally created out of nothing and was made by its creator in a real sense speaking it into existence. Thus the Information Universe is consistent with God bringing all things into existence by his word because they fundamentally consist of that information. It does so even though it was not developed for that purpose.

       

      The Bible also speaks of numerous miraculous and other types of supernatural events. If the universe is fundamentally information and God was the one that programmed or otherwise controls that information system, then like the programmer of a video game he could tweak the program’s information to produce the miracles and other types of supernatural events. Thus the Information Universe is consistent with the miracles of the Bible being real events and it does so even though it was not developed for that purpose.

       

      Colossians 1:17 (KJV) And he is before all things, and by him all things consist.

       

      This verse indicates that by God all things have their existence implying God regularly directly controls over the universe.


      Here you are correct. He put them all together. He placed them together, He banded them together. Light and matter have a relationship that acts together giving substances form. However, He is able to even change what is together by His power as all things change together, as Paul so plainly states in Romans 8.

       

      This makes a lot of sense if the universe is fundamentally information since Even when a human programmer programs a virtual world it is easy to add ways to directly control it beyond what a player could in a game. The point is that if the universe is fundamentally information programmed by God, and then would be expected to be indirect control of the information. Thus the Information Universe is consistent with the Bible idea of God directly controlling the universe and it does so even though it was not developed for that purpose.

       

      The fact is that the idea that the universe is fundamentally information and specifically the Information Universe model came from the need to explain certain results of Quantum Mechanics such as the double sit experiment. However it turns out to be a perfect fit to the Bible and amazingly it does so even though it was not developed for that purpose. While this fact will not please some proponents of the idea that the universe is fundamentally information it is still a fact that it is a perfect fit the Biblical idea of the Universe being created, maintain and controlled by God.

       

      Concluding that the universe is fundamentally information comes right out of Quantum Mechanics and is the most logical way to interpret Quantum Mechanics. One amazing result of this interpretation is that it not only requires a universe that is intelligently designed but is perfect fit to the idea of a creator God. The fit of the Information Universe to the Biblical account amazing given the fact that that the starting point was explaining the strangest results of Quantum Mechanics.


      The universe is NOT fundamentally information. It is fundamentally light. Paul plainly states in Ephesisan 5:13 that all things are light (phos estin). Matter is a relationship with light, not particles as in the Greek ideas about atoms.

      Please don't be offended. I also was trained in the traditional Catholic exegesis of Genesis and Hebrews 11:3. I also was trained by my Christian teachers to believe in Augustine's concept of a God who is outside of time (seeing the future) and the Catholic metaphysics that the essence of substance is changeless. I was a western child, so that was raised in that tradition from kindergarten on.

      The Catholic version of creation is denied by the literal Hebrew and Greek words of the Bible. We must give up our hide bound traditions and take the Bible literally, as a contemporary would understand it in their culture, grammar and epistemic system, not science and its ideas about an information universe. There is not a word in the Bible about an information universe.  There are words in teh Bible about how He created and teh wrods are verified in the only history that is visible as it happened, galactic history that follows the literal text - not the Catholic version.
       

      Victor

    • Chuck
      On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Chuck wrote ... I was not using ex nihilo as evidence for any thing. If you would bother actually read what I
      Message 2 of 3 , Jan 24, 2013

        On Mon, Jan 21, 2013 at 6:27 PM, Chuck <chuckpc@...> wrote

         

        >> http://scienceray.com/physics/information-universe-and-the-bible/

        >> This is part sixteen of the Information Universe series. See the

        >> link for part one.

        >> http://scienceray.com/physics/the-information-universe/

        >>  

        >> There a number of ways in which the Information Universe is

        >> a perfect fit the Bible. It fist well with the concept of God
        >> creating the universe out of nothing, as well as God speaking
        >> the universe into existence. It shows how the miracles
        >> mentioned Bible are possible and much more. While the
        >> following discussion dose refer to and quote the Bible it is
        >> primarily about physics and what the Information Universe
        >> says about the physics behind Biblical events.

        >>  

        >>The Bible teaches that God created the universe out of nothing.

        >> The term used for this generally is creation ex nihilo. “ex
        nihilo”
        >> is Latin meaning “out of nothing. This is implied right from the
        >> beginning literally from the first verse.

        >>  

        >> Genesis 1:1 (KJV) In the beginning God created the heaven

        >> and the earth.

        >  

        > You are following the traditional Catholic version of creation

        > and using their Latin words for evidence.

         

        I was not using “ex nihilo” as evidence for any thing. If you would bother actually read what I wrote you would see that I was simply referring to a commonly used term as starting point and nothing more. I only mentioned the Latin because part of the term is in Latin and I provided the translation of those words. This shows that you can’t even interpret 21st century English correctly so why should I think you can interpret 15th century BC Hebrew and   1st Century Greek correctly.

         

        Nor am I following any Catholic tradition, I simply used the literal interpretation of God’s inspired, inerrant word in the English Language the King James Bible. 

         

        > The Bible does not use the word beginning. Bereshit means

        > first in importance and precedence.

         

        While Bereshit can mean first in importance and precedence it can also mean “fist in time” or “in the beginning.”

         

        > Moses clearly gives a two step process for Creation. He

        > finished creating formless multiple places first - then later
        > gave form to them by continuing to command light to
        > continue to be.

        It says no such thing except maybe in you own perverted translation. You are repeatedly mistranslating Hebrew word after Hebrew word to get the results you want.

         

        > Please refer to the Hebrew –

         

        I have checked the Hebrew and it agrees with My King James Bible sitting next to my key board that Genesis 1:1 starts out “in the beginning.”

         

        > not the hide bound Latin interpretations.

         

        I don’t use “Latin interpretations” be they leather bound or silicon bound. I use God’s inspired, inerrant word in the English Language the King James Bible. By the way I am smart enough to know that your “hide bound Latin interpretations” reference is mainly intended as a veiled attack on the King James Bible. Yes technically you could be referring other translations as well, but you know that I use King James Bible and therefore your attack was clearly aimed at the King James Bible. You intellectual masters the 19th century heretics Westcott and Hort would be proud of you. You choose can to hate the King James Bible if you want but you should at least have the guts to be open about it.

         

        >> The word the heaven here refers outer space not only the

        >> objects that are out there but the space itself. As a result
        >> there would be no place for any thing to exist. Further
        >> more we have mater, space and time beginning in the same
        >> verse showing that God created all three at the same instant.
        >> This implies creation of all three out of nothing.

        >  

        > No one had even invented the concept of space when the

        > Bible was written

         

        Irrelevant not only is God above the limitation of human knowledge but when the ancient Hebrews saw the term Heaven or Havens here they would have thought of the sky and all the stars they saw in it. That means that what the Bible uses the term Heaven or Havens it means that outer space and what is in it, since everything the ancient Hebrews would associate with the Havens would be in outer space.

         

        >> and time (as an actuality) was not invented until after the

        >> pagan philosopher Plotinus influenced the Catholic

        >> philosopher Augustine. AUgustine invented the notion that
        >> God created time in the beginning. You will not find such
        >> a statement in the Bible.

         

        Granted you will not find such an explicit statement but it is implied,

         

        Ecclesiastes 3:11 (KJV)

        11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

         

        Note is says the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end. This implies a beginning and end to time and that God created it.

         

         Revelation 21:6 (KJV)

        6  And he said unto me, It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.

        Revelation 22:13 (KJV)

        13  I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.

         

        Twice the Lord Jesus Christ Himself says that He is the beginning and the end. The Lord Jesus Christ is the creator implying that he is the beginning and the end of time which he created.

         

        > You will find the statement that time is in our minds, according

        > to Solomon.

         

        Ecclesiastes 3:11 (KJV)

        11  He hath made every thing beautiful in his time: also he hath set the world in their heart, so that no man can find out the work that God maketh from the beginning to the end.

         

        You are referring to this verse which says noting of the kind not even in Hebrew

         

        >> Hebrews 11:3 (KJV) Through faith we understand that the

        >> worlds were framed by the word of God, so that things which
        >> are seen were not made of things which do appear.

        >>  

        >> This verse from the New Testament is more explicit indicating

        >> that all things were not made from physical entities. Even atoms
        >> can be seen and the fundamental particles that make them up
        >> can be detected so we have creation out of nothing. The
        >> Information Universe is consistent with this idea even though it
        >> was not developed for that purpose.

        >  

        > Here again you are using the traditional Catholic exegesis.

        >  

        >>Genesis 1:3 (KJV) And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.

        >  

        > Again you are using the Catholic, Latinized exegesis

         

        OK you have officially crossed a line here. Calling the use God’s inspired, inerrant word in the English Language the King James Bible Catholic exegesis is nothing short of blaspheming the Word God. In the second case all I am doing was quoting from the Bible so this is no question as to what you are saying.  

         

        Note: I am the one constantly quoting from a real Bible not my own personal translation.

         

        You clearly do not believe that God has given us His inerrant Word in our own language by inspiration, fine but calling God’s Word Catholic exegesis is nothing short blasphemy pure and simple.

         

        > The universe is NOT fundamentally information. It is fundamentally

        > light. Paul plainly states in Ephesisan 5:13 that all things are light
        > (phos estin). Matter is a relationship with light, not particles as in the
        > Greek ideas about atoms.

         

        Ephesians 5:11-13 (KJV)

        11  And have no fellowship with the unfruitful works of darkness, but rather reprove them.

        12  For it is a shame even to speak of those things which are done of them in secret.

        13  But all things that are reproved are made manifest by the light: for whatsoever doth make manifest is light.

         

        First of all it is clear from the context of that this is not speaking of light in the sense of what our eyes see by nor does it in any way speak of any relationship between mater and light. These verse speak about bring the light of truth upon hidden things. So once again you are twisting scripture.

         

        That said even if you were right what is light. It is a carrier of information and in fact as quantum mechanics shows light is fundamentally information. Thus mater is a relationship with light it is still fundamentally information and thus the universe is still fundamentally information.

         

        ------ Charles Creager Jr.

        Genesis Science Mission

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