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Re: Biblical Eons

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  • VictorM
    ... We have the text of the Bible accurately preserved in its original languages, in most cases - although Matthew probably was originally written in Aramaic.
    Message 1 of 13 , Oct 27, 2012
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      --- In CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com, "Chuck" <chuckpc@...> wrote:
      >
      > Victor:
      >
      > > The Bible menas what is says in the original languages and in
      > > its grammatical / historical context. In many cases the original
      > > meanings of words, especially with respect to creation and
      > > earth history, were modified by the Catholics.
      >
      >
      >
      > I get it. Now I really get it.
      >
      >
      >
      > You are saying that the Bible as we have it to day has been corrupted by
      > Catholics views and that even the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew words of
      > been likewise corrupted. The result is you can claim you own personal
      > translation and interpretation of the Bible as what the Bible actually says
      > even though it disagrees with every other translator of last 2000 years. Not
      > that but when I look any Greek or Hebrew text of the Bible I don't see your
      > personal translation and interpretation popping out as obvious or even
      > possible. When I then say I don't see it and in fact the Greek and Hebrew do
      > not say what you claim., then you are not at fault but every one else is
      > because in YOUR VEIW we are looking ar corrupt texts with a corrupt
      > understanding of the even the Greek and Hebrew languages them selves.
      >
      >

      We have the text of the Bible accurately preserved in its original languages, in most cases - although Matthew probably was originally written in Aramaic. What I am saying is it is illegitimate for religious tradition to change the meaning of words to fit their religious concepts. E.g. changing the Greek word for eons (aion) the Greek word used for the Old Testament Hebrew word "olam" to eternal. How do we know what the words meant? We have documents in Greek and Hebrew. Moses said take 12 stones out of the Jordan and set them up as a memorial for olam. The stones are long gone, they are not in place for eternity, but for ages.

      Here is Aristotle's description of the word aion both with respect to the pagan gods and with respect to mortal men.

      It is therefore evident that there is neither space, nor time, nor vacuum beyond. Wherefore the things there are not adapted by nature to exist in place; nor does time make them grow old; neither under the highest (heaven) is there any change of any one of these things, they being placed beyond it; but unchangeable, passionless - they continue through all aióna. For indeed, the word itself according to the ancients, divinely expressed this. For the period which comprehends the time of every one's life, beyond which, according to nature, nothing exists, is called his aión. And for the same reason, the period of the whole heaven even the infinite time of all things, and the period comprehending that infinity is aión, eternity, deriving its name from aei, einai, always being, immortal and divine."

      With respect to the pagan gods, who unlike the biblical God absolutely could not not change, it was an infinite duration. With respect to mortals, in ancient times it was used for the duration of a lifetime. The Greek poets agreed with the Bible that the earliest generations lived for vast ages.

      What am I saying. Words HAVE MEANING IN THEIR HISTORICAL CONTEXT. Translators have no right to change the meaning to fit their religious persuasion or their philosophical concepts.

      >
      > You are claiming that God not only failed to preserve and transmit his word
      > to us in the 21st century by that he even allow the understanding vary
      > original languages to become corrupt so that even efforts to translate from
      > an original autograph (if one were available) would produce a corrupt
      > translation. You would then have us believe the God came to you one day and
      > gave and only the key to undoing corruption. As a result we are suppose to
      > bow the knee of our intellect to you despite the fact that every other
      > source including the Bible I grew up on the KJV says you are wrong. What you
      > are claiming much like that of a cult leader.
      >

      I am not wise. I am not introducing some new teaching. I am not corrupting God's word. I advocate accepting the biblical words as they meant when they were written. The message I have is we must not tailor the Bible to fit the western system. The western system is mindset. When I was a child, my mind was forced into a mold by my schooling. (BTW, schooling is not usually to teach one to think freely, but to think within the mindset of the society one is raised in). I did not even know that my mind was incarcerated until I read the biblical warning about the dangers of the elementary ideas of philosophy (Col 2:8). I realized that the western system was contrived by well meaning Christians monks who adjusted the Bible to fit the philosophy of the pagan Greeks. They actually thought that philosophy could be the handmaiden to the Bible, bringing skeptics to faith


      >
      >
      > What is at the hart of the issue is not what the first principle of science
      > is or what Augustine or Friar Thomas said but do we have a faithful,
      > accurate authoritative copy of the word of God.
      >


      I beg you to read the original text. Don't read the traditions of men.


      The issues Creationist (both young and old earthers) has a simple, literal answer in the original languages. In fact, the age of the universe is probably the most powerful evidence for a literal creation, since we see the vast eons back to the creation age and we SEE exactly what the literal text states. However, we must stop tailoring our interpretations to fit the false first law of the last days.

      I challenge you to look up at the galaxies - which in our age you can do without a telscopoe - sinc e we taxpayers have access to the photos we pay for with the Hubble and hopefully someday the James Webb.

      Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high And see who has created these stars, The One who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name; Because of the greatness of His might and the strength of His power, Not one of them is missing.

      Here is a double imperative - look up and see! God expects us to see the evidence for what He does in the sky. He created something - a verbally completed action. The next verb is a hiphil participle to cause to go, to come out, bring out, lead out. Hiphil expresses the causative action and the participle shows an action in its unbroken continuity. He expects us to see something coming out as he continues to call to his starry army in the sky. Because of the strength of His power, none of the stars fails. (What we see in galactic history is that orbits accelerate outward as matter keeps on changing its clock frequencies and the space it takes up as stars continue to form out of things that do not appear. What we see is the evidence that God will make foolish the scientists. Man cannot find Him through humanistic wisdom. Yet the evidence for His creation is simple and visible.

      Changing Earth Creationist are not a new cult. We preach that people should accept the literal words of the Bible as they were written (verbal, plenary authority) and not tailor the text to fit the modern mindset of scientists who reason with the very first law the Bible predicted for the last days. Of course when we bring down the great fortress of speculative reasoning raised up against the knowledge of God (science - 2 cor 10:3 -6) it will probably bring on persecution. But we will bring great glory to our Creator when we use HIS LITERAL WORDS as weapons of war, not keep on adjusting the meaning to fit the latest scientific theory as has been going on for some centuries now.

      Victor
    • Chuck
      ... Genesis Science Mission Online Store Genesis Mission Creation Science
      Message 2 of 13 , Oct 29, 2012
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        ------ Charles Creager Jr.

        Genesis Science Mission <http://gscim.com/>

        Online Store <http://store.gscim.com/>

        Genesis Mission <http://genesismission.4t.com/>

        Creation Science <http://creationsciencetalk.blogspot.com/> Talk

        _____

        >> You are saying that the Bible as we have it to day has been>> corrupted
        by Catholics views and that even the meaning of the Greek and Hebrew words
        of

        > been likewise corrupted. The result is you can claim you own personal

        > translation and interpretation of the Bible as what the Bible actually
        says

        > even though it disagrees with every other translator of last 2000 years.
        Not

        > that but when I look any Greek or Hebrew text of the Bible I don't see
        your

        > personal translation and interpretation popping out as obvious or even

        > possible. When I then say I don't see it and in fact the Greek and Hebrew
        do

        > not say what you claim., then you are not at fault but every one else is

        > because in YOUR VEIW we are looking ar corrupt texts with a corrupt

        > understanding of the even the Greek and Hebrew languages them selves.

        >

        >



        We have the text of the Bible accurately preserved in its original
        languages, in

        most cases - although Matthew probably was originally written in Aramaic.
        What I

        am saying is it is illegitimate for religious tradition to change the
        meaning of

        words to fit their religious concepts. E.g. changing the Greek word for eons

        (aion) the Greek word used for the Old Testament Hebrew word "olam" to
        eternal.

        How do we know what the words meant? We have documents in Greek and Hebrew.

        Moses said take 12 stones out of the Jordan and set them up as a memorial
        for

        olam. The stones are long gone, they are not in place for eternity, but for

        ages.



        Here is Aristotle's description of the word aion both with respect to the
        pagan

        gods and with respect to mortal men.



        It is therefore evident that there is neither space, nor time, nor vacuum

        beyond. Wherefore the things there are not adapted by nature to exist in
        place;

        nor does time make them grow old; neither under the highest (heaven) is
        there

        any change of any one of these things, they being placed beyond it; but

        unchangeable, passionless - they continue through all aióna. For indeed, the

        word itself according to the ancients, divinely expressed this. For the
        period

        which comprehends the time of every one's life, beyond which, according to

        nature, nothing exists, is called his aión. And for the same reason, the
        period

        of the whole heaven even the infinite time of all things, and the period

        comprehending that infinity is aión, eternity, deriving its name from aei,

        einai, always being, immortal and divine."



        With respect to the pagan gods, who unlike the biblical God absolutely could
        not

        not change, it was an infinite duration. With respect to mortals, in ancient

        times it was used for the duration of a lifetime. The Greek poets agreed
        with

        the Bible that the earliest generations lived for vast ages.



        What am I saying. Words HAVE MEANING IN THEIR HISTORICAL CONTEXT.
        Translators

        have no right to change the meaning to fit their religious persuasion or
        their

        philosophical concepts.



        >

        > You are claiming that God not only failed to preserve and transmit his
        word

        > to us in the 21st century by that he even allow the understanding vary

        > original languages to become corrupt so that even efforts to translate
        from

        > an original autograph (if one were available) would produce a corrupt

        > translation. You would then have us believe the God came to you one day
        and

        > gave and only the key to undoing corruption. As a result we are suppose to

        > bow the knee of our intellect to you despite the fact that every other

        > source including the Bible I grew up on the KJV says you are wrong. What
        you

        > are claiming much like that of a cult leader.

        >



        I am not wise. I am not introducing some new teaching. I am not corrupting
        God's

        word. I advocate accepting the biblical words as they meant when they were

        written. The message I have is we must not tailor the Bible to fit the
        western

        system. The western system is mindset. When I was a child, my mind was
        forced

        into a mold by my schooling. (BTW, schooling is not usually to teach one to

        think freely, but to think within the mindset of the society one is raised
        in).

        I did not even know that my mind was incarcerated until I read the biblical

        warning about the dangers of the elementary ideas of philosophy (Col 2:8). I

        realized that the western system was contrived by well meaning Christians
        monks

        who adjusted the Bible to fit the philosophy of the pagan Greeks. They
        actually

        thought that philosophy could be the handmaiden to the Bible, bringing
        skeptics

        to faith





        >

        >

        > What is at the hart of the issue is not what the first principle of
        science

        > is or what Augustine or Friar Thomas said but do we have a faithful,

        > accurate authoritative copy of the word of God.

        >





        I beg you to read the original text. Don't read the traditions of men.





        The issues Creationist (both young and old earthers) has a simple, literal

        answer in the original languages. In fact, the age of the universe is
        probably

        the most powerful evidence for a literal creation, since we see the vast
        eons

        back to the creation age and we SEE exactly what the literal text states.

        However, we must stop tailoring our interpretations to fit the false first
        law

        of the last days.



        I challenge you to look up at the galaxies - which in our age you can do
        without

        a telscopoe - sinc e we taxpayers have access to the photos we pay for with
        the

        Hubble and hopefully someday the James Webb.



        Isaiah 40:26 Lift up your eyes on high And see who has created these stars,
        The

        One who leads forth their host by number, He calls them all by name; Because
        of

        the greatness of His might and the strength of His power, Not one of them is

        missing.



        Here is a double imperative - look up and see! God expects us to see the

        evidence for what He does in the sky. He created something - a verbally

        completed action. The next verb is a hiphil participle to cause to go, to
        come

        out, bring out, lead out. Hiphil expresses the causative action and the

        participle shows an action in its unbroken continuity. He expects us to see

        something coming out as he continues to call to his starry army in the sky.

        Because of the strength of His power, none of the stars fails. (What we see
        in

        galactic history is that orbits accelerate outward as matter keeps on
        changing

        its clock frequencies and the space it takes up as stars continue to form
        out of

        things that do not appear. What we see is the evidence that God will make

        foolish the scientists. Man cannot find Him through humanistic wisdom. Yet
        the

        evidence for His creation is simple and visible.



        Changing Earth Creationist are not a new cult. We preach that people should

        accept the literal words of the Bible as they were written (verbal, plenary

        authority) and not tailor the text to fit the modern mindset of scientists
        who

        reason with the very first law the Bible predicted for the last days. Of
        course

        when we bring down the great fortress of speculative reasoning raised up
        against

        the knowledge of God (science - 2 cor 10:3 -6) it will probably bring on

        persecution. But we will bring great glory to our Creator when we use HIS

        LITERAL WORDS as weapons of war, not keep on adjusting the meaning to fit
        the

        latest scientific theory as has been going on for some centuries now.



        Victor



        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Chuck
        ... You indicated the opposite previously but OK. ... I would agree if that is what is being done but I disagree with you that it has been done. ... The
        Message 3 of 13 , Oct 29, 2012
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          > We have the text of the Bible accurately preserved in its
          > original languages, in most cases - although Matthew
          > probably was originally written in Aramaic.



          You indicated the opposite previously but OK.



          >What I am saying is it is illegitimate for religious tradition to
          > change the meaning of words to fit their religious concepts.



          I would agree if that is what is being done but I disagree with you that it has been done.


          > E.g. changing the Greek word for eons (aion) the Greek word
          > used for the Old Testament Hebrew word "olam" to eternal.
          > How do we know what the words meant? We have documents
          > in Greek and Hebrew. Moses said take 12 stones out of the
          > Jordan and set them up as a memorial for olam. The stones are
          > long gone, they are not in place for eternity, but for ages.



          The passage in question is Joshua 4:4-7

          4 Then Joshua called the twelve men, whom

          he had prepared of the children of Israel, out

          of every tribe a man:

          5 And Joshua said unto them, Pass over

          before the ark of the LORD your God into the

          midst of Jordan, and take ye up every man of

          you a stone upon his shoulder, according unto

          the number of the tribes of the children of

          Israel:

          6 That this may be a sign among you, that

          when your children ask their fathers in time to

          come, saying, What mean ye by these stones?

          7 Then ye shall answer them, That the

          waters of Jordan were cut off before the ark of

          the covenant of the LORD; when it passed

          over Jordan, the waters of Jordan were cut off:

          and these stones shall be for a memorial unto

          the children of Israel for ever.



          First of all it was Joshua not Moses that set up the 12 stones as a memorial.

          Second Prove that they are not there we may have the wrong spot or they may have be buried or both.

          Third when the Bible quotes some one it quotes that person accurately even if that person is lying through their teeth. Now I am not saying that Joshua was lying but he could have been in error on how long they would last. Note this is Joshua speaking not God.

          Forth if these stones are indeed gone then you can’t even say they lasted for ages since it has been at most 3500 years since these events took place and most likely they did last more than 1000 years or so, hardly qualifying as ages.

          Finally in a way the memorial can be said to last for ever since it is enshrined in the Bible which as the word of God will last for ever.



          > Here is Aristotle's description of the word aion both with respect
          > to the pagan gods and with respect to mortal men.

          >

          > It is therefore evident that there is neither space, nor time, nor
          > vacuum beyond. Wherefore the things there are not adapted by
          > nature to exist in place; nor does time make them grow old;
          > neither under the highest (heaven) is there any change of any
          > one of these things, they being placed beyond it; but unchangeable,
          > passionless - they continue through all aióna. For indeed, the

          > word itself according to the ancients, divinely expressed this.
          > For the period which comprehends the time of every one's life,
          > beyond which, according to nature, nothing exists, is called his
          > aión. And for the same reason, the period of the whole heaven
          > even the infinite time of all things, and the period comprehending
          > that infinity is aión, eternity, deriving its name from aei, einai,
          > always being, immortal and divine."

          >

          > With respect to the pagan gods, who unlike the biblical God
          > absolutely could not not change, it was an infinite duration.
          > With respect to mortals, in ancient times it was used for the
          > duration of a lifetime.



          This is totally consistent with αἰών have more than one meaning ranging from a period of time or age, to eternity. So I see no evidence of any change in word meaning in these cases, I do however see the KJV translators using the appropriate English word given the context.



          > What am I saying. Words HAVE MEANING IN THEIR
          > HISTORICAL CONTEXT. Translators have no right to
          > change the meaning to fit their religious persuasion or their
          > philosophical concepts.



          I never said they did, but then again I do not believe the KJV translators changed a thing but that they faithfully translated the Bible in English by God’s direction, such that it is God’s inspired and inerrant word in English.



          >I am not wise.



          I will agree 100% on this point!



          > I am not introducing some new teaching. I am not corrupting
          > God's word. I advocate accepting the biblical words as they
          > meant when they were written.



          By the way I was not calling you a cult leader but trying to show that you sound a lot like one. However I do see what you are doing as twisting the actual meaning of the Biblical text even if you do not think that is what you are doing. As I have said before I simply do not see your interpretation in the Bible even when I do check the Greek and Hebrew and probably never will.



          > I beg you to read the original text. Don't read the traditions
          > of men.



          Since we do not have the original text (autographs) I take you mean the Greek and Hebrew and in that case in fact I have read them. I can read and understand Greek and I have studied Hebrew as well. When I do, I do not see your interpretation but tend to agree with the KJV.



          > I challenge you to look up at the galaxies - which in our age

          > you can do without a telescope - since we taxpayers have

          > access to the photos we pay for with the Hubble and hopefully

          > someday the James Webb.



          I do look up at the galaxies with and with Hubble. I have my own telescope as well.



          However when I look at those galaxies, I do not see your interpretation of the data. This is because there is more date coming in from Hubble than the visible light image and that data tells a different story than you are telling. It’s that simple I am looking and what I see fits well with Biblical creation from a young Earth perspective.



          > Changing Earth Creationist are not a new cult.



          You missed my point which is that some of what you say is reminiscent of a cult. I was giving you a warning about the direction I see you heading not a condemnation of where you are.









          ------ Charles Creager Jr.

          Genesis Science <http://gscim.com/> Mission

          Online <http://store.gscim.com/> Store

          Genesis <http://genesismission.4t.com/> Mission

          Creation Science Talk <http://creationsciencetalk.blogspot.com/>





          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Victor McAllister
          People in the Old Testament era could not imagine that time is substance-like because that idea was popularized much later by Christians. For centuries
          Message 4 of 13 , May 18, 2013
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            People in the Old Testament era could not imagine that time is substance-like because that idea was popularized much later by Christians. For centuries Europeans studied the Bible in Latin that did not have a tenseless verb like the Greek aorist or the untensed biblical Hebrew verbs. The western tradition affected the exegesis of the Bible as they interpreted it using new ideas about time. One of the effects of interpreting the Bible with western tensed grammars is the age of the universe dichotomy. If creationists would accept the text in the grammar and epistemic system of a contemporary, they could see that galactic history as the strongest evidence for a literal creation.

            All early people believed in geological eons in few years. Job 14 lists the geological events that passed during the lives of Noah’s grandsons. One of Job’s life-span markers was: the Mediterranean dried. Indeed drill cores show that the Mediterranean dried repeatedly. According to scientific estimates, the last drying was 5 million years ago. According to the Bible, Job lived about 4500 years ago, during the dinosaur age. Job also mentioned how their faces changed before they died. If we lived for eons, our skulls would grow Neanderthal features. Neanderthal children had skulls like moderns, which supports Job’s statement that their faces changed (doubled) before they died.

            We directly compare billions of galaxies at many ranges. The fact that the universe is eons old is clearly visible in galactic history. Hebrew 11:3 By faith we are apprehending that the plural eons were passively equipped by the command of God out of things unseen.

            What unseen thing allowed eons to passively form? We use the word gravity to explain why the Earth orbits the Sun. However, the cause of the gravitational phenomena is invisible. Perhaps He formed the plural eons by establishing the gravitational phenomena long ago.

            What is gravity? Gravity theories are based on assumptions. The best way to test gravity theories is to compare visible galactic history with a theory’s predictions.
            We observe that the earliest galaxies were often tiny and naked, sometimes surrounded by equally spaced globs with different spectral colors than the core. At many ranges we observe how the globs accelerate outward, taking up more space, changing their spectral frequencies as the stars accelerated out forming growth spirals. The star streams move opposite from Newton or Einstein’s theories.

            If what we see in the distance is real, then Earth’s orbit should also accelerate.
            Over the centuries, astronomers measured with angles a decreasing solar parallax. Thirty five hundred years ago, our ancestors mentions close planet passages and the shattering of a nearby planet, which the Bible also records. The solar system contains tens of thousands broken planet pieces in the form of comets and asteroids. They contain rocks whose crystals formed deep underground in volcanic conditions and sedimentary rocks like cubanite that formed in warm liquid water. Evidently a planet was smashed just like our ancestors claimed a few thousand years ago.

            A scientist might insist that they measure clock-like orbits, which prohibits planet collisions 4000 years ago. In 1970 NASA sent calibrated clocks out of the solar system on Pioneers 10 and 11. Their clock signals, transmitted from the past, kept changing with distance, relative to NASA’s hydrogen maser clocks of the moment. The Pioneer clocks changed with distance at the Hubble ratio, which astronomers use to estimate the distance to galaxies using their light clock rates. Clocks from the past are running slower than modern clocks. Some distant light-clocks, observed with telescopes, clocked about 7% of the frequencies emitted by modern atoms.

            We need a gravity theory based on biblical principles to account for why orbits visibly accelerate throughout cosmic history.

            1. The Bible plainly states that the creation is enslaved to change. Paul used orderly submission and together verbs to describe this deterioration in Romans 8:19 - 22. We observe that atoms continue to change relationally by comparing the shape and spectra of galaxies at many ranges.

            2. The gravitational phenomena is not a perpetual motion effect, as in Newton and Einstein. As atoms change their clock rates, they emit invisible gravity.
            Inertia and the gravitational phenomena were different a few millennium ago, which is why giant dinosaurs once roamed the Earth. If they were alive today, they would have trouble standing.

            3. Gravitational phenomena do not propagate at infinite speed as in Newton’s formulas. The aberration effect, the angular offset of the Sun’s gravity, pulls more on one hemisphere than the other.
            Paraconical pendulum demonstrate that the gravitational effect from the Sun and Moon vary depending on the positions of those distant objects. The aberration of gravity accelerates both days and years, pushing the earth (and all the planets) outwards in their orbits. It also accelerates the earth’s spin so that the ratio between days and years stays about the same.  The aberration of gravity also causes the distances between consecutive planets to increase logarithmically (the Titius Bode effect). It is not time that is accelerating, but rather orbits and rotations relative to their previous states, not relative to clocks.

            Someone might insist that there is a balance between the Earth’s inertia and the pull of the Sun’s gravity. If one of them were to change, the earth would be ejected from the solar system. Relational change is where everything changes in parallel, together. You cannot model relational changes with mathematics. Mathematical models are based on the notion that atoms are perpetual motion engines. The effects of relational changes are visible. We observe how billions of galaxies intrinsically grew into growth spirals.

            Lift up your eyes and look at galactic history. How great will be the triumph of the Word of God over science.

            http://www.godsriddle.info/2013/05/biblical-eons.html

            This cylinder seal from Kish is in the Metropolitan Museum of Art. It depicts a common theme from 4000 years ago, a battle between planet gods. We know they are planets because they are wearing hats with horns, perhaps depictions of ice rings or the crescent shapes when a planet is at an angle from the sun. Two planet gods are down and being brained with maces. One planet god has gripped the horned hat of another and has raised his mace. The Bible condemns the worshiping of planet gods, however, it uses similar words as the pagans to describe a planet shattering.

            Victor, Changing Earth Creationist

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