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RE: [CreationTalk] Metaphors

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  • Chuck
    From: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of VictorM Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 4:42 PM To:
    Message 1 of 2 , Oct 20, 2012
      From: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com] On
      Behalf Of VictorM
      Sent: Friday, October 19, 2012 4:42 PM
      To: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [CreationTalk] Metaphors

      > Metaphors are imaginative comparisons. Bible believers have
      > often used the world's metaphors to imagine how nature works.

      You are aware that the Bible uses metaphors and that Jesus himself used
      metaphors in his Earthly ministry aren't you?

      > Here are some of these metaphors.

      > In ancient times, people believed the planets were gods that
      > influenced events on Earth. A believer might claim God is
      > more powerful than the demon planets and will protect us
      > from their harmful influences.

      > During the medieval age, many Christians amalgamated the
      > ideas of the pagan Plotinus with the Scripture. In Plotinus'
      > scheme, nature was the realm of a world soul. The wind is
      > blowing and the world soul is breathing. For a thousand
      > years Christians feared the spirits that controlled nature.

      > Seven hundred years ago, Catholic friars adapted the ideas
      > of the pagan Aristotle to the Bible. They imagined that
      > substance has an essence that, like God, is unchanging.
      > The essence of substance is changeless, the Europeans imagined.

      There is a clear dividing line at this point that you have ignored. Up to
      this point up until this point you had people who believe the Bible or at
      least claim to do so, injecting pagan ideas into their beliefs about both
      nature and the Bible. The medieval Christians and Catholic friars you refer
      to were Roman Catholics and not genuine Bible believing Christians.
      Catholicism is not genuine Christianity but little more than Christianized
      paganism and so adding pagan ideas about reality would have come naturally.
      Also before this they were not really interested in testing their notions of
      reality and thus they would

      > Using this as a creed, European intellectuals invented symbols
      > that supposedly represented unchanging reality: mass, energy
      > and time. The metaphor for nature became the machine. The
      > universe was clock-like, because the great Clock Maker had
      > established the orbits with perpetual motion.

      Note that first of all the metaphor being used here is not based in pagan
      thought but in and understanding of mechanics, and unlike the previous
      metaphors classical scientists put their ideas to the test leading away from
      the creed that substance is changeless because it was found that substance
      can change, though not in the manner you think. What you call invented
      symbols are actually names given to propertied and phenomenon observed in
      nature. For example mass is more than a symbol it is the property of matter
      that regulates its acceleration when a force is applied. Also you claim of
      "orbits with perpetual motion" is not accurate since perpetual motion is
      continued unchanging motion without an external force, every planetary body
      orbiting the sun has various forces acting on them that that change or
      orbits over time as such do not meet the definition of perpetual motion.

      > The metaphor for reality today is information. We live in the
      > information age in which economies depend on people
      > organizing and controlling information. Information theories
      > are probabilistic. Supposedly, the quantum encodes information
      > about the probabilistic ways atoms behave. In the macro world,
      > statistical thermodynamics encodes reality. Likewise, DNA
      > encodes information about life. In the larger universe, Einstein's
      > theories dictate how information spreads through the universe at
      > the speed of light. Physicists wonder if black holes destroy
      > information.

      This where your argument breaks down first of every thing above predates the
      information age and Quantum mechanics actually helped make it possible.
      Furthermore the idea that reality is fundamentally information is not a
      metaphor but a conclusion about the underlying working of the universe that
      are based on specific observations that show that what make reality real is
      the availability of information to a conscious observer.

      > Will future generations look back on our information theories
      > as we look on the medieval Christians and their nature spirits?
      > Whenever Christians have amalgamated the Bible with
      > philosophy, it has resulted in nonsense.

      The Information Universe idea is not founded on philosophy but in fact runs
      counter to most philosophical notions about reality which expect reality to
      be material in nature. In particular it totally refutes the philosophy of
      materialism on which is based Darwinian Evolution, the Big Bang and all that
      go with them.

      > It is best for a believer to stick to text of the Bible.

      Well lest see the Genesis 1 says several times that God spoke things into
      existence, and the spoken word is information. Hebrews 11:3 makes it even

      Hebrews 11:3 Through faith we understand that the worlds

      were framed by the word of God, so that things which are

      seen were not made of things which do appear.

      What is the word of God but information? In fact the Bible itself is
      information. So when one looks at what the text of the Bible actually says
      it is say that Universe was created out of information, produced by the mind
      of God. From a Biblical perspective the Information Universe idea explains a

      By the way the rest of your post is just material we have been over a dozen
      times and I have refuted as many times so won't waste time doing so now.
      There is how ever one thing that is new that is your claim that "Job speaks
      of streams that flow into the dessert and disappear" I can not find any such
      reference will you please hive chapter and verse for it. More likely than
      not it is not really there but just one of you own strange interpretations
      but, I'm willing to give it a look.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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