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Age of the Universe

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  • Victor McAllister
    Graphic for this post is located at: http://www.godsriddle.info/2012/05/sn-1987a.html Evolutionists confirm a biblical prediction when they make astronomical
    Message 1 of 5 , May 29 11:31 AM
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      Graphic for this post is located at:
      http://www.godsriddle.info/2012/05/sn-1987a.html
      Evolutionists confirm a biblical prediction when they make astronomical
      �age of the universe� claims. 2 Peter 3:3-5 predicts that mockers will
      actively ignore the evidence that the ouranoi (plural heavens) esan
      ekpalai. Ek, in ekpalai, means to come out from a point of origin. Palai
      has to do with vibrations, repetitive events, orbits. Peter explained that
      the mockers will actively choose or prefer (thelo) to ignore the evidence
      that the plural heavens came out long ago because they think all things
      remain the same (panta houtos diamenei).

      On February 23, 1987 an astronomer in Chile noticed an exploding star in
      the Large Magellanic Cloud. At 0736 UT that day, three underground
      experiments recorded 25 neutrino events within 13 seconds. Evidently that
      was when the first light from SN-1987a arrived. The light from the
      explosion faded but eighty days later it began to brighten to a double peak
      at 240 and 400 days. We now know that the exploding star is surrounded by
      gas rings, evidently ejected by previous explosions. The inner ring has an
      approximate diameter of 0.808 arc seconds (0.00022444 degrees). The front
      half of the ring glowed with reflected light by day 240 and the reflection
      from the far side arrived by day 400. A high school student can calculate
      that the light was in transit for 240 / tan (0.00022444 degrees): over
      6,000,000,000 modern days. Scientists assume that days and years are linear
      when they estimate that the nova occurred 168,000 years ago. Their
      calculations presume that the properties of all things are fixed as Peter
      predicted.

      The Bible records genealogies that add up to ~ 4,000 pre New Testament
      years. If we accept the text literally, in its cultural and grammatical
      context, those could not be linear years. Elohim continued to form the Sun,
      Moon and stars and continued to place them in the spreading place (raqiya)
      half way through the creation week according to the creation account.
      Orbits that spread apart - accelerate. Jacob claimed that his days and
      years were shorter and worse than the days and years of the fathers
      (Genesis 47:9). The Greek words for eon, eons and eonian occur almost 200
      times in the New Testament. Christ came at the end of the plural eons to
      put away sin by the sacrifice of himself. Job mentioned several geological
      markers for the few days of his life in chapter 14. One of his age markers
      was the dried sea (Hebrew west). Drill cores show that the deep
      Mediterranean dried as evidenced by thick layers of salt, gypsum and
      stromatolite sandwiched between marine oozes. Scientists estimate the last
      Mediterranean drying occurred five million years ago. The biblical Job
      lived about 4,000 years ago during the age of dinosaurs (see Job 40 & 41).
      Job also mentioned how their faces changed, doubled, before they died. We
      find the skulls of the ancients with thick brows and we measure how our
      brows slowly grow as we age. If we lived for geological ages our faces
      would grow Neanderthal. The Neanderthal children did not have the thick
      brows of their grandparents, evidence that the grandparents lived for eons
      like the ancient poets and the Bible mentioned. Where is the evidence for
      linear days and years?

      1. Every atomic clock in billions of galaxies clocks a different frequency
      than modern atoms, and the differences usually correlate with distance.
      NASA sent calibrated clocks out of the solar system on Pioneer 10 and 11.
      Their transmitted clock signals slowed, when compared to NASA�s hydrogen
      maser clocks. The ratio of frequency slowing to distance was the Hubble
      ratio scientists use to estimate galactic distances by comparing ancient
      light clocks with modern atoms.

      2. We see strings of blue globs in equally spaced chains around the redder
      cores of many early galaxies. We observe, at many ranges, how these globs
      took up more space and changed their clock frequencies as they moved
      outward in orbits that did not close. Billions of galaxies visibly grew
      into local growth spirals without evidence of accretion or growth by
      collisions.

      3. If the same laws are operating in the solar system as we observe in
      galaxies, (see Job 38:33), then the solar system must have been much
      smaller when atoms ticked at tiny fractions of the frequencies of modern
      clocks. Ancient astronomers optically measured a decreasing solar parallax
      over the centuries, which has continued even after radar established the
      canonical distance to the Sun using atomic clocks. The earliest
      astronomical record of Venus could only be valid if the solar system was
      contracted. Have you ever wondered why the ancients, including the biblical
      authors, mentioned the crushing of a nearby planet a few millennium ago?
      The volcanic and sedimentary rocks on angular asteroids and comets support
      the four references to this planet shattering in the Bible.

      4. A river of cold hydrogen links the Magellanic galaxies with the southern
      end of the Milky way. This is simple evidence that these galaxies were
      ejected from the Milky Way. The Biblical God says He calls the stars to
      come out in unbroken continuity and none go missing (Isaiah 40:26). The
      several rings around the SN-1987a progenitor star suggest that previous
      explosions did not destroy the star. The material from the latest ejection
      is oblong, instead of spherical.

      5. What could cause solar system orbits to accelerate outwards? We know
      that the "gravitational effect" does NOT propagate at infinite speed. This
      should produce a different gravitational �pull� on the trailing side of the
      Earth than on the leading side. Indeed, paraconical pendulum change their
      precession rate depending on the relative positions of the Sun, Moon and
      apparently even the planets. This imbalance must accelerate days and years
      equally. The same gravitational affects would also accelerate the planet
      orbits so that the whole solar system should expand.

      6. We measure local orbits and they are clock like, screams the scientist.
      Only when you compare orbits to clocks, instead of angles. But we measure
      gravity and it does not change! No one has ever isolated any gravity and
      your measuring system was contrived with the idea that Peter predicted. You
      assumed that atoms are perpetual motion engines and have built a great
      structure of mathematical empiricism based on a blind creed. No perpetual
      motion atoms gleam from billions of ancient galaxies. We visually correlate
      how atoms keep changing their clock rates along with emerging star stream
      orbits as spiral galaxies grew into huge growth spirals. Despite the fact
      that no physical constants are visible in the whole universe, scientists
      keep on claiming to empirically measure how many years ago an event
      occurred.

      The picture of the Pinwheel Galaxy is courtesy NASA. The red color is
      infrared (imaged by Spitzer) shining through dust. The yellow is starlight,
      as imaged by Hubble. Blue represents ultraviolet (imaged by GALEX) and
      purple represents X-rays from Chandra. When we compare the Pinwheel with
      earlier spirals, we observe how the stars spread out from formerly naked
      cores just like the biblical creation account records.

      Victor


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Oliver Elphick
      Some of this is valid comment, but mixed up with things that are dubious and detract from the rest. ... ek = out of palai = of old palai is the adverb from
      Message 2 of 5 , May 29 9:39 PM
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        Some of this is valid comment, but mixed up with things that are dubious
        and detract from the rest.

        On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 11:31 -0700, Victor McAllister wrote:
        > Ek, in ekpalai, means to come out from a point of origin. Palai
        > has to do with vibrations, repetitive events, orbits

        ek = out of

        palai = of old

        palai is the adverb from palaios

        palaios means old as opposed to new. There is nothing about vibrations
        or orbits or repetition. Where does this idea come from?

        > The Bible records genealogies that add up to ~ 4,000 pre New Testament
        > years. If we accept the text literally, in its cultural and
        > grammatical context, those could not be linear years.

        What does "linear year" mean? In the context, these years are orbits of
        the earth around the sun, just as now, and just about the same length as
        now. It is currently about 6,000 years since creation. But there is no
        need to assume that time has passed at the same rate in the outer
        universe. It is possible for billions of years to have passed there in
        between day 4 and day 6 of creation measured from earth.
        http://creation.com/new-creation-cosmology

        > Elohim continued
        > to form the Sun, Moon and stars and continued to place them in the
        > spreading place (raqiya) half way through the creation week according
        > to the creation account. Orbits that spread apart - accelerate.

        If an orbiting body moves further away from the body around which it
        orbits, it slows down in the process. Thus the moon loses energy
        through tidal drag, slows down, and moves further away form the earth.
        So in what sense are things accelerated by being spread apart?

        > Jacob
        > claimed that his days and years were shorter and worse than the days
        > and years of the fathers (Genesis 47:9).

        "And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage are
        an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of
        my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the
        life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage."

        Abraham lived to 175, Isaac to 180, and Jacob was dying at 130. Why
        look for complicated explanations when there is an obvious simple one?
      • Victor McAllister
        ... As you mentioned ekpalai is an adverb. The verb esan from eini is imperfect, active indicative. An imperfect verb shows an action that repeatedly happens.
        Message 3 of 5 , May 30 11:55 AM
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          On Tue, May 29, 2012 at 9:39 PM, Oliver Elphick <olly@...> wrote:

          > Some of this is valid comment, but mixed up with things that are dubious
          > and detract from the rest.
          >
          > On Tue, 2012-05-29 at 11:31 -0700, Victor McAllister wrote:
          > > Ek, in ekpalai, means to come out from a point of origin. Palai
          > > has to do with vibrations, repetitive events, orbits
          >
          > ek = out of
          >
          > palai = of old
          >
          > palai is the adverb from palaios
          >
          > palaios means old as opposed to new. There is nothing about vibrations
          > or orbits or repetition. Where does this idea come from?
          >
          > > The Bible records genealogies that add up to ~ 4,000 pre New Testament
          > > years. If we accept the text literally, in its cultural and
          > > grammatical context, those could not be linear years.
          >
          > What does "linear year" mean? In the context, these years are orbits of
          > the earth around the sun, just as now, and just about the same length as
          > now. It is currently about 6,000 years since creation. But there is no
          > need to assume that time has passed at the same rate in the outer
          > universe. It is possible for billions of years to have passed there in
          > between day 4 and day 6 of creation measured from earth.
          > http://creation.com/new-creation-cosmology
          >
          >
          As you mentioned ekpalai is an adverb. The verb esan from eini is
          imperfect, active indicative. An imperfect verb shows an action that
          repeatedly happens. As you mentioned ekpalai has to do with a great while
          ago, ancient. Why would the combination of ek (to come out from a point of
          origin) and palai indicate antiquity? Palin has to do with again,
          repetitions, once more.

          During the biblical age, people never held the notion that time existed or
          flowed. You could not run out of time unless you died since time was
          associated with the events of your life. The new moon was an event and when
          you saw the new moon you blew the trumpet to indicate that the event had
          arrived. Plutarch mentions that 2750 years ago, the Roman months sometimes
          had 20 days and sometimes 35. The month was not a measurement of time, but
          the cyclical return of the new moon. If it was raining and you could not
          see the moon, the month ran for more days. The first Roman calendar also
          had only 10 named months. September 7, October 8, November 9, December 10
          were numbered months. The months Janauarius and Februarius were not named
          until the days of king Numa.Evidently a month without agricultural activity
          had no need for a name. Time had no independent existence.

          No one during the biblical age could imagine that the cycles of the heavens
          were linear. Their histories were about how the planet positions had
          changed since the days of their fathers and how the earliest people lived
          for eons. Hesiod groaned that he was born in the iron generation when men
          never stopped laboring by day and dying by night. His ancestors lived in
          the age of kronos when life ran for vast eons. He believed this
          degeneration would continue until children are born with grey temples.
          People who think like that cannot imagine linear time.

          All ancient people told stories about the crushing of a planet. Since the
          Bible mentions this four times, using language similar to the Canaanites,
          we should accept that a planet really was crushed. Yet the bible condemns
          worshiping the planets as gods, such as Baal (Jupiter). The Bible, like the
          ancient Babylonians, mentions a close passages that affected things on
          earth, in the manner the Babylonians recorded (rain in the mountains).
          Judges 5:20 mentions the (plural) kokabiym fought from their courses. This
          word can refer to stars but kokab is also Mercury and kokab nogah is Venus.
          Venus has a rotational resonance with Earth at every inferior conjunction
          (which will happen next week). The same longitude on the surface of Venus
          points to the Earth at each conjunction. Yet we do not experience Venusian
          tides today. All ancient people feared the days when Venus passed and
          brought devastation to Earth.

          During the biblical age, people looked back with longing on the times of
          their fathers who lived in the great time when the cycles of the heavens
          were ponderously slow (Genesis 47:9). We confirm that they were right
          because we observe in innumerable spiral galaxies how the star streams
          spiraled out, accelerating continually. What we observe is the most
          powerful evidence for a biblical creation, that the universe has vast age,
          yet few orbits have occurred because everything is changing in the very
          manner that Paul explained in Romans 8:19 - 22. The degeneration is an
          orderly submission, the creation is enslaved to change and he characterized
          this with two Greek together verbs (relational change).

          It is not easy for Western people to take the Bible literally when it comes
          to Earth history, because of a little assumption. This assumption is the
          very one Peter predicted, the notion that all things remain the same. We
          imagine that matter is not changing itself even though we can see tha past
          all the way back to the creation age. Not only are the atomic clocks
          accelerating but the galactic stars streams are also accelerating. He warns
          us not to be wise in ths age, because He is taking the wise with their own
          skills. Telescopes are recording the creation right now as it hapenned long
          ago. What is visible confirm the Biblical creation and also shows how
          utterly He will make foolish western science, the system that was founded
          on the very idea Peter predicted for the mockers of the last days.

          > Elohim continued
          > to form the Sun, Moon and stars and continued to place them in the
          > spreading place (raqiya) half way through the creation week according
          > to the creation account. Orbits that spread apart - accelerate.

          If an orbiting body moves further away from the body around which it
          > orbits, it slows down in the process. Thus the moon loses energy
          > through tidal drag, slows down, and moves further away form the earth.
          > So in what sense are things accelerated by being spread apart?
          >
          > > Jacob
          > > claimed that his days and years were shorter and worse than the days
          > > and years of the fathers (Genesis 47:9).
          >
          > "And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage are
          > an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of
          > my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the
          > life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage."
          >
          > Abraham lived to 175, Isaac to 180, and Jacob was dying at 130. Why
          > look for complicated explanations when there is an obvious simple one?
          >

          Notice that Isaac lived more years than Abraham. Yet in the context of how
          people though in Jacobs day, Abraham lived in the age when days and years
          had longer durations.


          > ------------------------------------
          >
          > ============================================
          > CreationTalk email listserv
          > Northwest Creation Network http://nwcreation.net/
          > CreationWiki http://creationwiki.org/
          > ============================================Yahoo! Groups Links
          >
          >
          >
          >


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Oliver Elphick
          ... That is one use of the imperfect, translated as used to do . Another use is continuing action, translated as was doing . Continuing action is the first
          Message 4 of 5 , May 30 11:10 PM
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            On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 11:55 -0700, Victor McAllister wrote:
            > As you mentioned ekpalai is an adverb. The verb esan from eini is
            > imperfect, active indicative. An imperfect verb shows an action that
            > repeatedly happens.

            That is one use of the imperfect, translated as "used to do". Another
            use is continuing action, translated as "was doing". Continuing action
            is the first choice for translation, particularly with a verb like "to
            be".

            > As you mentioned ekpalai has to do with a great while
            > ago, ancient. Why would the combination of ek (to come out from a point of
            > origin) and palai indicate antiquity? Palin has to do with again,
            > repetitions, once more.

            And here we are not dealing with "palin", but with "ekpalai". This is
            taking your conclusions and forcing them into the text with a
            sledgehammer. It is Humpty Dumpty's approach to language!

            > During the biblical age, people never held the notion that time existed or
            > flowed.

            Biblical evidence?

            > You could not run out of time unless you died since time was
            > associated with the events of your life. The new moon was an event and when
            > you saw the new moon you blew the trumpet to indicate that the event had
            > arrived. Plutarch mentions that 2750 years ago, the Roman months sometimes
            > had 20 days and sometimes 35. The month was not a measurement of time, but
            > the cyclical return of the new moon. If it was raining and you could not
            > see the moon, the month ran for more days. The first Roman calendar also
            > had only 10 named months. September 7, October 8, November 9, December 10
            > were numbered months. The months Janauarius and Februarius were not named
            > until the days of king Numa.

            Our knowledge of what happened during the days of the kings is very
            sparse. King Numa himself is not even certainly known to have existed!
            Knowledge of that time was not particularly great even in the time of
            Plutarch, who wrote 800 years after the founding of the city.

            The Roman calendar was not automatically fitted to the solar year until
            the time of Caesar and it was the responsibility of the pontifex maximus
            to insert intercalary days and months to keep the months in line with
            the seasons. Some of them bothered and some of them didn't, which could
            lead to large changes when a new man came into office.

            > Evidently a month without agricultural activity
            > had no need for a name. Time had no independent existence.

            That does not logically follow. The months are actually governed by the
            moon, which is visible to everyone. After all, that is why God made the
            heavenly bodies - to regulate times and seasons. (Genesis 1:14)

            > No one during the biblical age could imagine that the cycles of the heavens
            > were linear. Their histories were about how the planet positions had
            > changed since the days of their fathers and how the earliest people lived
            > for eons. Hesiod groaned that he was born in the iron generation when men
            > never stopped laboring by day and dying by night. His ancestors lived in
            > the age of kronos when life ran for vast eons. He believed this
            > degeneration would continue until children are born with grey temples.
            > People who think like that cannot imagine linear time.

            This is very speculative, and furthermore it is in the Greek culture,
            not in the Hebrew one.

            > All ancient people told stories about the crushing of a planet.

            Give me one example. This language rather assumes a modern knowledge of
            what a planet is, doesn't it?

            > Since the
            > Bible mentions this four times, using language similar to the Canaanites,
            > we should accept that a planet really was crushed.

            Bible references, please.

            > Yet the bible condemns
            > worshiping the planets as gods, such as Baal (Jupiter). The Bible, like the
            > ancient Babylonians, mentions a close passages that affected things on
            > earth, in the manner the Babylonians recorded (rain in the mountains).
            > Judges 5:20 mentions the (plural) kokabiym fought from their courses. This
            > word can refer to stars but kokab is also Mercury and kokab nogah is Venus.
            > Venus has a rotational resonance with Earth at every inferior conjunction
            > (which will happen next week). The same longitude on the surface of Venus
            > points to the Earth at each conjunction. Yet we do not experience Venusian
            > tides today. All ancient people feared the days when Venus passed and
            > brought devastation to Earth.

            I've heard the theory that Mars' orbit used to approach the earth's
            closely, which is why it is regarded as ominous. I have never heard
            this about Venus.

            Wikipedia on orbital resonance:
            "A number of near-integer-ratio relationships between the orbital
            frequencies of the planets or major moons are sometimes pointed out (see
            list below). However, these have no dynamical significance because there
            is no appropriate precession of perihelion or other libration to make
            the resonance perfect (see the detailed discussion in the section
            above). Such near resonances are dynamically insignificant even if the
            mismatch is quite small because (unlike a true resonance), after each
            cycle the relative position of the bodies shifts. When averaged over
            astronomically short timescales, their relative position is random, just
            like bodies that are nowhere near resonance. For example, consider the
            orbits of Earth and Venus, which arrive at almost the same configuration
            after 8 Earth orbits and 13 Venus orbits. The actual ratio is
            0.61518624, which is only 0.032% away from exactly 8:13. The mismatch
            after 8 years is only 1.5° of Venus' orbital movement. Still, this is
            enough that Venus and Earth find themselves in the opposite relative
            orientation to the original every 120 such cycles, which is 960 years.
            Therefore, on timescales of thousands of years or more (still tiny by
            astronomical standards), their relative position is effectively random."

            >
            > During the biblical age, people looked back with longing on the times of
            > their fathers who lived in the great time when the cycles of the heavens
            > were ponderously slow (Genesis 47:9).

            And Jacob said to Pharaoh, “The days of the years of my sojourning are
            130 years. Few and evil have been the days of the years of my life, and
            they have not attained to the days of the years of the life of my
            fathers in the days of their sojourning.”

            Again, this is forcing your theory into the text.

            > We confirm that they were right
            > because we observe in innumerable spiral galaxies how the star streams
            > spiraled out, accelerating continually. What we observe is the most
            > powerful evidence for a biblical creation, that the universe has vast age,
            > yet few orbits have occurred because everything is changing in the very
            > manner that Paul explained in Romans 8:19 - 22. The degeneration is an
            > orderly submission, the creation is enslaved to change and he characterized
            > this with two Greek together verbs (relational change).

            For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons
            of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but
            because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will
            be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the
            glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has
            been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.

            Again, you cannot get your theory out of this text. It has to be forced
            into it.

            > It is not easy for Western people to take the Bible literally when it comes
            > to Earth history, because of a little assumption. This assumption is the
            > very one Peter predicted, the notion that all things remain the same. We
            > imagine that matter is not changing itself even though we can see tha past
            > all the way back to the creation age. Not only are the atomic clocks
            > accelerating but the galactic stars streams are also accelerating.

            But I think you are claiming that orbits are moving further apart. IN
            that case, the orbital speed must be slowing down and years becoming
            longer.

            > He warns
            > us not to be wise in ths age, because He is taking the wise with their own
            > skills. Telescopes are recording the creation right now as it hapenned long
            > ago. What is visible confirm the Biblical creation and also shows how
            > utterly He will make foolish western science, the system that was founded
            > on the very idea Peter predicted for the mockers of the last days.

            Science was founded on the bible. The methodology of science is fine
            for the things to which it is appropriate, and the proof of that is the
            technological advances it has brought. Its methodology is not so
            appropriate for investigating creation history.

            > > Elohim continued
            > > to form the Sun, Moon and stars and continued to place them in the
            > > spreading place (raqiya) half way through the creation week according
            > > to the creation account. Orbits that spread apart - accelerate.
            >
            > If an orbiting body moves further away from the body around which it
            > > orbits, it slows down in the process. Thus the moon loses energy
            > > through tidal drag, slows down, and moves further away form the earth.
            > > So in what sense are things accelerated by being spread apart?

            I notice you have not answered this.

            > > > Jacob
            > > > claimed that his days and years were shorter and worse than the days
            > > > and years of the fathers (Genesis 47:9).
            > >
            > > "And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage are
            > > an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of
            > > my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the
            > > life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage."
            > >
            > > Abraham lived to 175, Isaac to 180, and Jacob was dying at 130. Why
            > > look for complicated explanations when there is an obvious simple one?
            > >
            >
            > Notice that Isaac lived more years than Abraham. Yet in the context of how
            > people though in Jacobs day, Abraham lived in the age when days and years
            > had longer durations.

            Again, you are assuming your conclusion. A 5 year difference in
            lifetime between father and son is not significant. On the other hand,
            Jacob's lifetime is significantly shorter, in line with the average
            trend down from 900+ years lifespans down to 70+ years.

            There is no need to indulge in fanciful stuff like this to account for
            the age of the outer universe. Relativistic effects are a much more
            likely answer.

            The reason that we see time as linear is that our culture is ultimately
            based on the bible, which sees time moving from creation, through fall,
            to redemption and ultimate restoration, as opposed to the Hindu idea of
            everything repeating.
          • Victor McAllister
            ... Agreed, teh plural heavens continue to do something that makes them very ancient. ... Palin is a related word. ... Solomon plainly stated in Ecclesiastes
            Message 5 of 5 , May 31 10:55 AM
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              On Wed, May 30, 2012 at 11:10 PM, Oliver Elphick <olly@...> wrote:

              > **
              >
              >
              > On Wed, 2012-05-30 at 11:55 -0700, Victor McAllister wrote:
              > > As you mentioned ekpalai is an adverb. The verb esan from eini is
              > > imperfect, active indicative. An imperfect verb shows an action that
              > > repeatedly happens.
              >
              > That is one use of the imperfect, translated as "used to do". Another
              > use is continuing action, translated as "was doing". Continuing action
              > is the first choice for translation, particularly with a verb like "to
              > be".
              >

              Agreed, teh plural heavens continue to do something that makes them very
              ancient.

              >
              >
              > > As you mentioned ekpalai has to do with a great while
              > > ago, ancient. Why would the combination of ek (to come out from a point
              > of
              > > origin) and palai indicate antiquity? Palin has to do with again,
              > > repetitions, once more.
              >
              > And here we are not dealing with "palin", but with "ekpalai". This is
              > taking your conclusions and forcing them into the text with a
              > sledgehammer. It is Humpty Dumpty's approach to language!
              >

              Palin is a related word.


              >
              >
              > > During the biblical age, people never held the notion that time existed
              > or
              > > flowed.
              >
              > Biblical evidence?
              >

              Solomon plainly stated in Ecclesiastes 3:11 that God put olam in our minds
              (same as heart in Hebrew), Olam is the Hebrew name for eons, time out of
              mind because it is not now present. In this chapter He uses eth (the event
              time 32 times. It is because God put time in our minds (olam) that we
              cannot understand the perfections of all that God has done from beginning
              to end. We cannot understand earth history because we have time in our
              minds. He only uses olam in one other reference in this chapter. What GOd
              does is for olam, eons, which unlike what we do since the eth cycles
              destroy all that we build. God judges the past, not the future. Time does
              not exist either for man or for God. Time is a concept in our mind.

              Most modern Christians seem to follow Augustine's concept of time which is
              diametrically opposite to Solomon's, the biblical version of time.
              Augustine imagined that God created time, that He is not in time but we
              are. That God is eternal and sees all of time at once. He got these ideas
              from the pagan philosopher Plotinus, not from the literal text of the
              Bible. Literally time has no existence. It is a concept that is very
              important - because we it to frame history,m to make appointments, to
              predict the future - but there is not time entity. It is in out minds just
              like Solomon stated.


              >
              >
              > > You could not run out of time unless you died since time was
              > > associated with the events of your life. The new moon was an event and
              > when
              > > you saw the new moon you blew the trumpet to indicate that the event had
              > > arrived. Plutarch mentions that 2750 years ago, the Roman months
              > sometimes
              > > had 20 days and sometimes 35. The month was not a measurement of time,
              > but
              > > the cyclical return of the new moon. If it was raining and you could not
              > > see the moon, the month ran for more days. The first Roman calendar also
              > > had only 10 named months. September 7, October 8, November 9, December 10
              > > were numbered months. The months Janauarius and Februarius were not named
              > > until the days of king Numa.
              >
              > Our knowledge of what happened during the days of the kings is very
              > sparse. King Numa himself is not even certainly known to have existed!
              > Knowledge of that time was not particularly great even in the time of
              > Plutarch, who wrote 800 years after the founding of the city.
              >
              > The Roman calendar was not automatically fitted to the solar year until
              > the time of Caesar and it was the responsibility of the pontifex maximus
              > to insert intercalary days and months to keep the months in line with
              > the seasons. Some of them bothered and some of them didn't, which could
              > lead to large changes when a new man came into office.
              >
              >
              No ancient calendar measured time. They were simply recording the passage
              of astronomical events. They tuned their lives to nature, not to calendars.
              They adjusted their calendars to fit the cycles of nature, not concepts of
              fixed time like we do. Scientists have filled the universe up with magic,
              undetectable things like spacetime that changes the frequencies of all
              light passing through the void in order to fit the western concept of time.
              No clock, when we observe the universe near or far, is clocking the
              frequencies of modern atoms yet yet force the whole universe to fit our
              concept of time whith which we measure thousands of symbolical versions of
              reality - empirical science.


              >
              > > Evidently a month without agricultural activity
              > > had no need for a name. Time had no independent existence.
              >
              > That does not logically follow. The months are actually governed by the
              > moon, which is visible to everyone. After all, that is why God made the
              > heavenly bodies - to regulate times and seasons. (Genesis 1:14)
              >
              > Did you notice on this day that Elohim continued to FORM the Sun, Moon and
              stars and continued to place them in the spreading place (raqiya). Over the
              centuries astronomers have continued to measure a decreasing solar
              parallax. THe parallax to nearby planets has also continued to change even
              during the 2004 Venus transit. We should expect from the literal text of
              the Bible that the solar system has continued to expand for which there is
              ample historical evidence. Yet scientists measure the solar system with a
              CONCEPT of linear time and claim the orbits are clock-like. Yet we can see
              the history of galaxies how they formed, which exactly fits the Biblical
              statements about how GOd continues to spread out the plural heavens. The
              atomic clocks and the stars streams both accelerate together (optically) in
              billions of galaxies at many ranges.


              >
              > > No one during the biblical age could imagine that the cycles of the
              > heavens
              > > were linear. Their histories were about how the planet positions had
              > > changed since the days of their fathers and how the earliest people lived
              > > for eons. Hesiod groaned that he was born in the iron generation when men
              > > never stopped laboring by day and dying by night. His ancestors lived in
              > > the age of kronos when life ran for vast eons. He believed this
              > > degeneration would continue until children are born with grey temples.
              > > People who think like that cannot imagine linear time.
              >
              > This is very speculative, and furthermore it is in the Greek culture,
              > not in the Hebrew one.
              >
              >

              No ancient civilization could imagine time the way we do nor could they
              even dream that it was linear. Read "Cosmos And History The Myth Of The
              Eternal Return"
              by Mircea Eliade who documented how ancient people resisted the modern
              concept of history.


              Give me one example. This language rather assumes a modern knowledge of
              > what a planet is, doesn't it?
              >

              The pagans followed the planets in their cycles, read Babylonian
              Astronomical Cuneiform Texts by Neugebauer. They worshiped them as gods as
              well as invented lists of expectations (omens) for what would happen when
              the planets returned to some previous position. The Bible clearly condemns
              the worshiping of the planet gods, which in the case of the Canaanites was
              sexual. Every 399 days Jupiter (Baal) disappeared into the underworld and
              the Canaanites practiced immorality trying to bring the planet back to the
              visible sky.

              Yet the Bible mentions the shattering of rahab (mighty stormy) four times
              in language almost identical to the Canaanites for the shattering of one of
              their planet gods. Evidently a planet really was shattered since we find
              thousands of angular planet pieces complete with volcanic crystals and
              rocks formed in liquid water in the asteroids and comets.

              Isaiah 51:9 "Awake, awake, put on strength, O arm of the LORD; Awake as in
              the days of old, the generations of long ago. Was it not You who cut
              Rahabin pieces, Who pierced the dragon?"
              (The dragon is a tanniyn - a sea serpent). Three other passages mention the
              crushing of Rahab - Job 9:13; Job 26:12 and Palm 89:10. The word
              Rahabmeans storm, pride or arrogance. (
              Rahab
              the woman and Rahab the sky object are not spelled the same in Hebrew). The
              Canaanites recorded that Baal (Jupiter) smote Leviathan the twisting
              serpent, the tyrant with seven heads.
              Perhaps each watery planet chunk produced a trail of vapor that combined
              into what looked like a seven-headed snake to the Canaanites. Thousands of
              asteroids and comets orbit our Sun
              containing rocks that formed in liquid water (cubanite) and others that
              formed under volcanic conditions (fosterite). Evidently a watery planet was
              shattered, as ancient people recorded.

              Isaiah wrote that Rahab was crushed in the generations of long ago. How
              long ago was that? Don't try to twist the Bible to fit modern notions of
              linear time and clock-like orbits. Creationsts have been tailoring the
              Bible to fit science now for several generations and the more they do the
              more they drive people away from the truth of the Bible.



              > > Since the
              > > Bible mentions this four times, using language similar to the Canaanites,
              > > we should accept that a planet really was crushed.
              >
              > Bible references, please.
              >
              >
              THe Bible uses the word

              >
              > > Yet the bible condemns
              > > worshiping the planets as gods, such as Baal (Jupiter). The Bible, like
              > the
              > > ancient Babylonians, mentions a close passages that affected things on
              > > earth, in the manner the Babylonians recorded (rain in the mountains).
              > > Judges 5:20 mentions the (plural) kokabiym fought from their courses.
              > This
              > > word can refer to stars but kokab is also Mercury and kokab nogah is
              > Venus.
              > > Venus has a rotational resonance with Earth at every inferior conjunction
              > > (which will happen next week). The same longitude on the surface of Venus
              > > points to the Earth at each conjunction. Yet we do not experience
              > Venusian
              > > tides today. All ancient people feared the days when Venus passed and
              > > brought devastation to Earth.
              >
              > I've heard the theory that Mars' orbit used to approach the earth's
              > closely, which is why it is regarded as ominous. I have never heard
              > this about Venus.
              >

              I wrote a short essay on the Venus resonance here:

              http://www.godsriddle.info/2012/05/venus-resonance-and-biblical-history.html


              >
              > Wikipedia on orbital resonance:
              > "A number of near-integer-ratio relationships between the orbital
              > frequencies of the planets or major moons are sometimes pointed out (see
              > list below). However, these have no dynamical significance because there
              > is no appropriate precession of perihelion or other libration to make
              > the resonance perfect (see the detailed discussion in the section
              > above). Such near resonances are dynamically insignificant even if the
              > mismatch is quite small because (unlike a true resonance), after each
              > cycle the relative position of the bodies shifts. When averaged over
              > astronomically short timescales, their relative position is random, just
              > like bodies that are nowhere near resonance. For example, consider the
              > orbits of Earth and Venus, which arrive at almost the same configuration
              > after 8 Earth orbits and 13 Venus orbits. The actual ratio is
              > 0.61518624, which is only 0.032% away from exactly 8:13. The mismatch
              > after 8 years is only 1.5� of Venus' orbital movement. Still, this is
              > enough that Venus and Earth find themselves in the opposite relative
              > orientation to the original every 120 such cycles, which is 960 years.
              > Therefore, on timescales of thousands of years or more (still tiny by
              > astronomical standards), their relative position is effectively random."
              >
              >
              > >
              > > During the biblical age, people looked back with longing on the times of
              > > their fathers who lived in the great time when the cycles of the heavens
              > > were ponderously slow (Genesis 47:9).
              >
              > And Jacob said to Pharaoh, �The days of the years of my sojourning are
              > 130 years. Few and evil have been the days of the years of my life, and
              > they have not attained to the days of the years of the life of my
              > fathers in the days of their sojourning.�
              >
              > Again, this is forcing your theory into the text.
              >
              > Theories are based on principles. Science got its principles from Friar
              Aquinas and Scotus, who modified the principles of the pagan Aristotle to
              fit the Bible. We should get our principles from the text of Scripture, not
              science, whose principle is predicted in the Bible and clearly
              denied.Science was founded on a single idea - that all things remain the
              same. The definitions, methods, measuring symbols and mathematical
              constants of science were constructed on that assumption which is why
              creation scientists have been so utterly unable to tailor the Bible to fit
              science. If we stick to the text, as a contemporary would have understood
              it, the evidence for creation is overwhelming since we can see it happening
              in the distant sky long ago. No scientist can believe the visible creation
              because it is a violation of the creed of science, that the properties of
              matter are fixed, not continually emerging relationally. He commands us in
              the imperative to lift up our eyes and look and what we see is exactly what
              the Creator says He is doing and has done.




              >
              > > We confirm that they were right
              > > because we observe in innumerable spiral galaxies how the star streams
              > > spiraled out, accelerating continually. What we observe is the most
              > > powerful evidence for a biblical creation, that the universe has vast
              > age,
              > > yet few orbits have occurred because everything is changing in the very
              > > manner that Paul explained in Romans 8:19 - 22. The degeneration is an
              > > orderly submission, the creation is enslaved to change and he
              > characterized
              > > this with two Greek together verbs (relational change).
              >
              > For the creation waits with eager longing for the revealing of the sons
              > of God. For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but
              > because of him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself will
              > be set free from its bondage to decay and obtain the freedom of the
              > glory of the children of God. For we know that the whole creation has
              > been groaning together in the pains of childbirth until now.
              >
              > Again, you cannot get your theory out of this text. It has to be forced
              > into it.
              >
              > I am running out of time to respond at present. I have written extensively
              on interpreting the Romans 8 text grammatically and literally instead of
              scientifically. Here is an old one.

              http://godsriddle.com/testimony/principles.html



              > > It is not easy for Western people to take the Bible literally when it
              > comes
              > > to Earth history, because of a little assumption. This assumption is the
              > > very one Peter predicted, the notion that all things remain the same. We
              > > imagine that matter is not changing itself even though we can see tha
              > past
              > > all the way back to the creation age. Not only are the atomic clocks
              > > accelerating but the galactic stars streams are also accelerating.
              >
              > But I think you are claiming that orbits are moving further apart. IN
              > that case, the orbital speed must be slowing down and years becoming
              > longer.
              >
              >
              > > He warns
              > > us not to be wise in ths age, because He is taking the wise with their
              > own
              > > skills. Telescopes are recording the creation right now as it hapenned
              > long
              > > ago. What is visible confirm the Biblical creation and also shows how
              > > utterly He will make foolish western science, the system that was founded
              > > on the very idea Peter predicted for the mockers of the last days.
              >
              > Science was founded on the bible. The methodology of science is fine
              > for the things to which it is appropriate, and the proof of that is the
              > technological advances it has brought. Its methodology is not so
              > appropriate for investigating creation history.
              >
              > On the contrary science was founded on principles that came from the
              philosophers. He warns us in the imperative (Colossians 2:8, that the
              elementary principles of the world and philosophy would take us prisoner.
              It is terrible to have ones mind in shackles.


              >
              > > > Elohim continued
              > > > to form the Sun, Moon and stars and continued to place them in the
              > > > spreading place (raqiya) half way through the creation week according
              > > > to the creation account. Orbits that spread apart - accelerate.
              > >
              > > If an orbiting body moves further away from the body around which it
              > > > orbits, it slows down in the process. Thus the moon loses energy
              > > > through tidal drag, slows down, and moves further away form the earth.
              > > > So in what sense are things accelerated by being spread apart?
              >
              > I notice you have not answered this.
              >

              You are referencing your statement to clock, not to the visible history of
              galaxies. All orbits in billions of spiral galaxies acclerate outward, as
              the atomic clocks also acclerate, visibly not referenced to scientific
              concepts of time,mass or energy that were contrived with the first
              principle of science, the idea the Bible predicts and denies.

              >
              >
              > > > > Jacob
              > > > > claimed that his days and years were shorter and worse than the days
              > > > > and years of the fathers (Genesis 47:9).
              > > >
              > > > "And Jacob said unto Pharaoh, The days of the years of my pilgrimage
              > are
              > > > an hundred and thirty years: few and evil have the days of the years of
              > > > my life been, and have not attained unto the days of the years of the
              > > > life of my fathers in the days of their pilgrimage."
              > > >
              > > > Abraham lived to 175, Isaac to 180, and Jacob was dying at 130. Why
              > > > look for complicated explanations when there is an obvious simple one?
              > > >
              > >
              > > Notice that Isaac lived more years than Abraham. Yet in the context of
              > how
              > > people though in Jacobs day, Abraham lived in the age when days and years
              > > had longer durations.
              >
              > Again, you are assuming your conclusion. A 5 year difference in
              > lifetime between father and son is not significant. On the other hand,
              > Jacob's lifetime is significantly shorter, in line with the average
              > trend down from 900+ years lifespans down to 70+ years.
              >
              > There is no need to indulge in fanciful stuff like this to account for
              > the age of the outer universe. Relativistic effects are a much more
              > likely answer.
              >
              > The reason that we see time as linear is that our culture is ultimately
              > based on the bible, which sees time moving from creation, through fall,
              > to redemption and ultimate restoration, as opposed to the Hindu idea of
              > everything repeating.
              >
              >
              >


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