11968Re: [CreationTalk] Distant Starlight
- Aug 12, 2014This list is for discussing creation in seven days, not arguing about the KJ Bible. However, creation interpretations can produce large variances, such as the differences between Young Earth, Old Earth and Changing Earth Creationists.
My argument is that creation translations have not been following the grammatical Hebrew text for hundreds of years. The Hebrew uses mostly imperfect verbs. God repeatedly says - light continue to be. He continues to form the stars and continues to make them into things that spread out. That is radically different from the ex nihilo traditions and theories about time that originated with Catholic philosophers. Evidently, translators often do what is safe, stick to tradition. Only the literal, untensed Hebrew grammar is supported by visible cosmic history back to the creation era.
By the way, the KJV New Testament is based on a Greek manuscript edited by Erasmus, a Catholic priest. In some places he went with Latin traditions (such as 1 John 5:7-8) because the majority of Greek manuscripts conflicted with Catholic doctrine. Three hundred words in the KJ no longer mean what they did 400 years ago. The 1611 version has endured 3 revisions that made 100,000 changes. Despite this, millions have come to faith in Christ through the KJ Bible as well as other translations. God uses His Word which he preserves even as languages and world views change. The Holy Spirit empowers it, not theologians or translators.
I contend that we are losing the war of beginnings because we are going with traditions, rather than the grammatical Hebrew text. We do not do this deliberately. Our minds are locked by dogmatic assumptions about matter and time that came from Catholic philosophers.
(1) Because western notions about "time" are so radically different from how ancient people understood durations,
(2) Because many creation challenges focus on the issue of "time" as understood by westerners.
I will write you another essay showing the falsity of western time ideas, both from the Bible and the visible history of galaxies.
Victor, Changing Earth CreationistOn Tue, Aug 12, 2014 at 6:30 PM, 'Chuck' chuckpc@... [CreationTalk] <CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com> wrote:> Inspiration applies to the original manuscripts.True but it is NOT restricted to the original manuscripts.2 Timothy 3:15-16 (KJB)
15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures,
which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith
which is in Christ Jesus.
16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable
for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in
righteousness:Note Paul says to Timothy that he has known the scriptures. To know the scriptures one must have them. Paul goes on to say ALL scripture IS given by inspiration of God. Now Timothy did not have any original autographs as a child all he had are copies and most likely translated copies. Sense ALL scripture IS (present tense) given by inspiration if it is not in inspiration it is NOT scripture. Furthermore Paul said that all scripture IS (present tense) given by inspiration not was (past tense) this all shows that inspiration is NOT restricted to the original manuscripts.> God providentially preserved the Scriptures, through several
> manuscript lines, which actually demonstrates the antiquity
> of the originals. The text has been copied and translated
> repeated, which has introduced nuances, often because
> word meanings and grammars change over the centuries.> We can determine the original autographs by comparing the
> 24,000 manuscripts of the New Testament. Naturally, there
> are fewermanuscripts of the Old Testament.Who may I ask do you mean by "we"? You clearly mean those Liberals like yourself who wish to change the Bible. The simple fact is that without a standard to go on in to form of a true flawless copy of flawless translation of the original autographs you have no hope of doing so. To claim other wise is arrogate and instinctually dishonest. Even attempting it requires a theory about which texts are best and since those who claim to seek the original autographs hold to the Westcott Hort textual theory all such efforts are doomed to produced erroneous results. Such a process also lends it self to deliberate malicious manipulation.Those of us that believe we have God's inspired word in our own language (the King James Bible for English) have no need seek the original autographs because we have a faithful translation of them in our hands already.Psalm 12:6-7 (KJB)
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver tried
in a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve
them from this generation for everNote that God promises to actively preserve His words, this means that God had taken clear to preserve His words in copying and translation. The manuscript mess you describe does not fit the God's promises actively preserve His words. Only continuing inspiration by way of preservation thru perfect copies and translations meets the promises of these verses.>The few uncertainties do not affect God's plan of redemption in Christ
> but mostly creation, earth history and differences for how ancient
> people thought and lived.The only reasons for your uncertainties is that you refuse to accept God's preserved inerrant inspired word in English the King James Bible. Instead like a liberal seek to replace it with a counterfeit Bible of you own making. I have No uncertainties because I have God's inspired inerrant word in English on the desk next to me in the form of King James Bible. It has proven it self through the endurance of time (403 years) despite over 200 years attracts. God has also put his stamp of approval on the King James Bible by using it mightily to win souls to him.> The medieval popes had a great influence on creation and earth history
> because they sought to harmonize pagan philosophy with their religion.
> Catholic philosopher theologians laid the foundation for the Western
> system with their theories abouttime and matter.Accept that we did not get the true preserved Bible thru the Catholics but through true believers that preserved true copies and translations thru the middle ages. The King James Translators turned to these vernacular Bibles for help not the Catholic'sBy the way just because the Catholics hold a particular position does not make it wrong. They hold to the deity of Christ, the virgin birth and bodily resurrection of Christ so you need more than Catholics taught it to be convincing when that same teaching clearly shows up in the King James Bible.
From: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Monday, August 11, 2014 6:36 PMInspiration applies to the original manuscripts. God providentially preserved the Scriptures, through several manuscript lines, which actually demonstrates the antiquity of the originals. The text has been copied and translated repeated, which has introduced nuances, often because word meanings and grammars change over the centuries. We can determine the original autographs by comparing the 24,000 manuscripts of the New Testament. Naturally, there are fewer manuscripts of the Old Testament. The text of Isaiah from Qumran is almost word for word (with some spelling nuances) from the Masoretic (although lacking the vowel signs of medieval Hebrew). Translators sometimes have to guess at the meaning of Hebrew words, because they are ancient and unique (not found in contemporary documents). Translators understand that their work involves some uncertainty and may rely on traditions passed down from previous translators.
The few uncertainties do not affect God's plan of redemption in Christ but mostly creation, earth history and differences for how ancient people thought and lived.
The medieval popes had a great influence on creation and earth history because they sought to harmonize pagan philosophy with their religion. Catholic philosopher theologians laid the foundation for the Western system with their theories about time and matter.
(1) Bishop Augustine used the system of the pagan Plotinus in his theory that God created time, is not in time and sees the future. Modern translators use the phrase "in the beginning", following the Augustinian tradition. The first word (bereshit) means what is first in rank, importance or precedence. For example, the fear of the Lord is the most important thing (bereshit) for getting wisdom. During the Old Testament era, the concept of time had not yet been invented, which is why biblical Hebrew had no verb tenses and ancient people could not "measure" time. They tuned their lives to the cycles of nature using dynamic calendars. We do the opposite. We regulate life with clocks and fixed calendars that have minimum regard for the continual changes observed in nature.
(2) The popes were instrumental in authorizing the western metaphysics, the elementary assumption upon which science was contrived because they controlled the schools for a thousand years. Friar Thomas "solved" the problem of matter continually changing itself, the issue that had prevented the Greeks from inventing an empiricalscience. God's essence is to be changeless (not in time), in the Catholic system. Therefore what God created (substance) could share in his attributes: an unchanging essence (noun of the Latin verb to be). Scientific definitions of matter and time; scientific principles (e.g. conservation); most scientific measuring units; scientific methods and scientific mathematical laws are almost all predicated on the notion that matter is not continually changing relationally.
Arguments that scientifically minded creationists make (such as the Earth is young) is contradicted in numerous places by the literal text. Some scientifically minded creationists claim God created an earlier Earth and rebuilt it at Genesis 1:2, which is again contradicted by the grammar. It is important that we purge the metaphysics of the medieval Dominicans from our understanding of creation.
Only the literal Hebrew text of day four, the way God continued to form the Sun, Moon and stars (the distant and near universe) and make them into spreading things (Hebrew raqiya), is supported by the visible history of how the galaxies formed. How could the universe be only6,000 years old. Please observe that the atomic clocks, the star stream orbits and the space matter takes up all change together as billions of galaxies grew into huge growth spirals. Western notions of time are denied by visible cosmic history as everything in the Creation is observed to change. The Apostle Paul stated that the creation is enslaved to change. Peter even predicted the false idea upon which western science was contrived, the notion that "all things remain the same".
Please consider abandoning the synthesis of the literal text with the metaphysics of the medieval Dominicans. Only the literal text is supported by simple evidences such as the growing Earth, changing solar system, the visible history of galaxies and how our ancestors grew Neanderthal brows in few days as they lived long enough to observe vast geological changes, just like Job described in chapter 14.
The literal seven days is on the Changing Earth Creation web site. You can also read a theory of how gravity aberration continues to accelerate days and years on the same site.
Victor, Changing Earth CreationistOn Sun, Aug 10, 2014 at 1:54 PM, 'Chuck' chuckpc@... [CreationTalk] <CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com> wrote:> When examining the universe, it is important to first examine one's
> fundamental assumptions.OK Victor lets look at YOUR fundamental assumptions.1. You assume that God inspired the original autographs and then abandoned His word to errors and malicious corruption of men.This assumption is clearly false sin God promised to preserve His words for ever.Psalm 12:6-7 (KJB)
6 The words of the LORD are pure words: as silver triedin a furnace of earth, purified seven times.
7 Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preservethem from this generation for ever.Since you are so fond of the Hebrew preserve is translated from the Hebrew verb "natsar" which is Qal Imperfect indicating active incomplete action. "natsar" means to preserve, or guard from dangers. So Psalm 12:6-7 is saying that God is actively guarding His words from dangers. Those danger would include copying errors, malicious corruption by men and the Devil, and accidental corruption by well meaning men. This preservation would include God's inspiration in copying and translation.2. You assume that you actually have a accurate understanding of Greek and Hebrew.This is proven false by the amateurish way you "translate" them, which is to take a single English word from a lexicon which was written by a liberal Bible hating critic or some one who got their definitions from such that you insist is the only meaning of the the Greek or Hebrew word despite the fact that most words in most languages have varying meanings depending on context. You further "translate" verb tenses by adding he verb tense to the single English word from your corrupt lexicon rather than supplying the proper English equivalent.3. You assume that you can actually get into the mind of bronze and iron age men and know how they would see a given passage,This is impossible since we do not any bronze and iron age men to converse with. Trying to determine their mind set by their language is not necessarily helpful because some concepts such as time can be determined by context rather than verb tense.4. You assume that God was incapable of expressing concepts in Greek and Hebrew that would be beyond the understanding of the human authors, but that we would understand in the 21st century.This is proven false by the fact that many prophecies were not fully understood by the human authors and their contempories that we can understand because the prophecy has been fulfilled or as we get closer to the time how it can be fulfilled becomes clearer. For example is is easy for me to see how the entire world will see the two wittiness in Revelation, while previous generations spiritualized it.I could go on but I thing this makes the point.> Peter predicted the false idea that the last day mockers would use> to obfuscate cosmic history. They will use their notion that all things> that exist remain the same (panata houtos diamenei) to obfuscate> the evidence that the plural heaves are ek palai - out old.This is NOT what peter predicted. Just because you studied a little Greek and have a lexicon written by unbelieving men who set out rewrite the Bible not mean that you have any real ability to understand the Greek.2 Peter 3:3-6 (KJB)
3 Knowing this first, that there shall come in the last days
scoffers, walking after their own lusts,
4 And saying, Where is the promise of his coming? for
since the fathers fell asleep, all things continue as they
were from the beginning of the creation.
5 For this they willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of
God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of
the water and in the water:
6 Whereby the world that then was, being overflowed with
water, perished:Fist of all versefor is a prediction the scoffers will be saying that physical processescontinue unchanged; which they do. Second that because if that they are"willingly are ignorant of, that by the word of
God the heavens were of old, and the earth standing out of the water and in the water." The actual phrase that "by the word of God the heavens were of old" in other words they denying that the heaves were created by the word of God on the claim that physical processes continue unchanged and not "that the heavens came out long ago"By the way your repeated references to the plural heaves shows that you do not understand the English use of the term any better than you do the Hebrew. In Hebrew the plural can indicate large size as well as number such is the case in the Bible when referring the the universe. If you knew Hebrew 1/10 th as well as you claim you would know this. This concept is reflected in the English Majestic Plural.> Once you question the fundamentalist assumption of all scientist,> that matter is not continually changing itself,This is not the fundamentalist assumption of all scientists. The real fundamentalist assumption of all scientists is that the universe is understandable. Which makes since from a Christian perspective.Science does accept the there are ways in which is continually changing itself. Atoms interact with each other forming new substances wit unique properties. Subatomic particles interact or decay forming other particles. The mass of a particle can change by absorbing or giving off energy, this bases of nuclear power. So before claiming that scientists assume that matter is not continually changing itself, you need to define exactly what you mean by this term.> then you can accept cosmic history as we observe it actually> happened in all parts of the light spectrum.Except that what you call cosmic history has no basses in reality. I don't reject you so called cosmic history because of not excepting your notion about matter continually changing itself but because what you claim is there does not exist out side you imagination.> Jeremiah 10:12 He actively continues in unbroken continuity to make the earth.> (Zech 12:1 says he continues in unbroken continuity to lay the foundations of the Earth.
> Compact objects, such as the Earth continue to get bigger, as we confirm in the fact
> that the continents fit together on a minuscule globe.) In the same Jeremiah verse,
> the stretching of the plural heavens uses a perfect verb, a completed action. He
> finished stretching out the primeval galaxies long ago. It was not until the fourth
> day that hebegan to continually form the Sun Moon and stars and make them
> into things that spread out (raqiya - see the literal Hebrew for day 4).>> However, Isaiah 51:13 uses an active participle (active action that continues
> in unbroken continuity) for the stretching out of the plural heavens (not the
> singular vacuum of space time). Isaiah 40:26 says he continues in unbroken
> continuity to call the stars to come out, yet none go missing.First of Victor NO ONE has confirmed that the continents fit together on a minuscule globe. To get them to do so requires computer simulation as actually twist and stretch the the continents to make them fit. Even the original not computer models have significant gaps in them. The also totally ignore the the continual shelves. So this expanded Earth theory is bogus.Second you talk about understanding the Bible the way the human authors would have but yet they did known about galaxies so you claim that the "plural heavens" refers to galaxies goes against your entire premise about understanding the Bible the way the human authors would have, so you do not apply your own principles consistently.Once again Victor you writing your words and claiming them as being from the Bible. Lets see what the Bible actually says.Jeremiah 10:12 (KJB) He hath made the earth by his power, he hath established
the world by his wisdom, and hath stretched out the heavens by his discretion.Zechariah 12:1 (KJB)
1 The burden of the word of the LORD for Israel, saith the LORD, which stretcheth
forth the heavens, and layeth the foundation of the earth, and formeth the spirit of
man within him.Isaiah 51:13 (KJB) And forgettest the LORD thy maker, that hath stretched forth
the heavens, and laid the foundations of the earth; and hast feared continually
every day because of the fury of the oppressor, as if he were ready to destroy?
and where is the fury of the oppressor?Isaiah 40:26 (KJB) Lift up your eyes on high, and behold who hath created these
things, that bringeth out their host by number: he calleth them all by names by
the greatness of his might, for that he is strong in power; not one faileth.Victor in translating between languages you CAN not just add the verb tense definitions to the translated word as get an accurate translation your have to translate the verb tenses in to that of the new language other wise you gettotal non sense as you repeatedly prove. Also even if you deny that Godinspires translation, you are still being argent in the extreme to imply that you know Greek and Hebrew better than the King James translators did.The fact is given the Hebrew use of the plural to refer to size and the English and other languages use of the Majestic Plural using the plural "heaves" and singular "heaven" to refer to the universe is not only legitimate but accurate as well.
From: CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com]
Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2014 3:41 PMTelescopes are great, since they gather light and let us see the past. Since we taxpayers pay for the great telescopes, we can observe the universein gamma, X-ray, ultra violet, optical, infrared and radio waves from the comfort of our armchairs. NASA has a policy (different from ESA) that space telescope pictures are in the public domain. This permits us to download 60 mb files of the Hubble Ultra Deep Field and examine the spectra of each galaxy as the universe existed long ago. You can also join the galaxy zoo and help catalog raw images of galaxies. There are at least 500 billion galaxies and astronomers do not live long enough to catalog more than a few in their lifetimes.
When examining the universe, it is important to first examine one's fundamental assumptions. Peter predicted the false idea that the last day mockers would use to obfuscate cosmic history. They will use their notion that all things that exist remain the same (panata houtos diamenei)
to obfuscate the evidence that the plural heaves are ek palai - out old. Once you question the fundamentalist assumption of all scientist, that matter is not continually changing itself, then you can accept cosmic history as we observe it actually happened in all parts of the light spectrum.The universe is not getting bigger. The Bible uses two different verb forms to explain how God created the universe.
Jeremiah 10:12 He actively continues in unbroken continuity to make the earth. (Zech 12:1 says he continues in unbroken continuity to lay the foundations of the Earth. Compact objects, such as the Earth continue to get bigger, as we confirm in the fact that the continents fit together on a minuscule globe.) In the same Jeremiah verse, the stretching of the plural heavens uses a perfect verb, a completed action. He finished stretching out the primeval galaxies long ago. It was not until the fourth day that he began to continually form the Sun Moon and stars and make them into things that spread out (raqiya - see the literal Hebrew for day 4).However, Isaiah 51:13 uses an active participle (active action that continues in unbroken continuity) for the stretching out of the plural heavens (not the singular vacuum of space time). Isaiah 40:26 says he continues in unbroken continuity to call the stars to come out, yet none go missing.Is the Bible contradicting itself? No. The space between galaxy clusters is not stretching out, as in scientific mythologies. Yet individual galaxies and galaxies clusters are shooting out small galaxies and continually spreading out. The Magellanic galaxies are connected to the core of the Milky Way by a long river of neutral hydrogen, evidence that they were ejected from the MW. In countless galaxies and clusters, we observe streams of stars emerging and spreading out to form huge growth spirals as God continues to call the stars to continually come out. Indeed, he commands us in the imperative to lift up our eyes at the heavens that reveal his great glory. When you use your telescope you are obeying the BIble.What is visible trumps invisible things like the spreading vacuum of space time or other absurdities. The Bible says that light reveals the truth and exposes error because all that is visible is light (see the Greek for Eph 5:13). Indeed, light and matter are intimately related (see creation day one). which is why light is important but mathematical theories based on the notion that atoms are perpetual motion engines are nonsense.
Victor, Changing Earth CreationistOn Thu, Aug 7, 2014 at 7:02 PM, kptnfmrs@... [CreationTalk] <CreationTalk@yahoogroups.com> wrote:
I joined the Creation Talk group on Yahoo today and saw a bunch of the posts about distant starlight and such. I don't have any letters after my name, but I have enjoyed amateur astronomy since I acquired a C-8 telescope back in about 1978.
Without boring you with a bunch of my life's details, I have recently (in the last year or so) taken a special interest in the distant starlight conundrum. I have watched John Hartnet's DVD: Starlight, Time and The New Physics about ten times. I was captivated by the notion of the accelerating expansion of the universe and Hartnet's conclusion of the consequential compression of time. I haven't read Moshe Carmeli's book yet (don't know if I'll even be able to comprehend it when it gets here), but it makes me wonder about the "engine" that is driving the acceleration. Is it being pushed from the inside or pulled from the outside(rhetorical?) One question that comes to mind is "What is the expanding universe displacing?" I'm guessing that beyond the finite expanding universe is nothing, absolutely nothing.
"Nothing" would be less dense than the vacuum of the space that we're familiar with, therefore I speculate that the universe is being drawn out into the void with the diminishing acceleration that has been observed. This appeals to me because the energy that would cause the acceleration is identified (that being the difference in density.)
Okay, I'll stop jabbering, now. You guys with letters after your names can tell me what you think.
Then he said "Arggh!" and pressed <Send>
Jb 26:7 He stretcheth out the north over the empty place (and) hangeth the earth upon nothing.
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