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Re: Brainstorms Discussion Forum

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  • Mark Gosling
    Steve and Group, Steve you recently posted information from William Dembski about the new ISCID brainstorms discussion forum site. So I thought I d check it
    Message 1 of 4 , Mar 1, 2002
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      Steve and Group,

      Steve you recently posted information from William Dembski about the new
      ISCID "brainstorms" discussion forum site. So I thought I'd check it out.
      Very interesting, but the following was disturbing.

      The site only opened on a few days ago and already this has appeared:

      "According to our webhost, ISCID was subject to a Denial Of Service
      (DOS)Attack for approximately 6 hours (7:30am-1:30pm Eastern US) on
      2/28/2002. A denial of service attack is a purposeful attempt to overload
      the web server (apparently someone doesn't like us very much). Users who
      tried to access the site were either denied access or pages loaded at
      miserably slow speeds. We are sorry for the inconvenience that this may have
      caused."

      Why am I not surprised? And why am I not surprised that some opponents of ID
      would indeed not feel sorry to stoop to this sophomoric level of "debate"?


      I would like to recount an incident that happened just last Sunday. That
      morning when my family and I arrived at our church fellowship we found that
      the church building (we are a small congregation in an old church) had been
      broken into and the walls daubed with slogans and insults (comments that in
      other, more "politically correct" contexts might be termed "hate speech"),
      doors broken off, cupboards rifled, a phone stolen and generally the church
      desecrated. From some of the slogans it would appear that the culprits were
      students from the local high school.

      Once not so long ago a church would have been spared this treatment because
      of an unconscious shared assumption that it was a "sacred" place, the "house
      of God", "a place of worship" but I guess in a world where God is dead,
      "science" having played a main role in killing him, anything goes. Vandalism
      of churches is now endemic. I'm sure most here deplore this action and
      distance themselves from it in every way, though some might seek to "excuse"
      it as the result of the excesses of bored youth or due to the social
      isolation and neglect of young people in an uncaring society but can I just
      point out that there are no gangs of kids from church youth groups going
      around engaging in such wanton and mindless destruction.

      Who are the Vandals and Goths of the present generation? From whence the
      ideology, the nihilism, the self-centeredness, the destructiveness that
      motivates them? I recently read comments on this list directed against the
      "evil" influence of YEC and of Scripture Union Kids Clubs and of the
      Salvation Army on the minds of impressionable young people and society's
      values in general. Huh? Remember that movie from the early sixties? "It's a
      mad, mad, mad, mad world". There's an ad on TV here in my state where a
      little girl, extolling the virtues of a homebuilder who creates a
      "wonderful" home environment in which to live, intones the punchline "Thank
      you Mr Hooker!".

      Perhaps the bigger picture is: Thank you Mr Darwin, thank you Mr Marx, thank
      you Mr Freud , thank you Mr Neitsche?


      Mark Gosling
    • Stephen E. Jones
      Mark On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:54:01 +1000, Mark Gosling wrote: [...] MG Steve you recently posted information from William Dembski about the new ... Given the
      Message 2 of 4 , Mar 1, 2002
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        Mark

        On Fri, 1 Mar 2002 22:54:01 +1000, Mark Gosling wrote:

        [...]

        MG>Steve you recently posted information from William Dembski about the new
        >ISCID "brainstorms" discussion forum site. So I thought I'd check it out.
        >Very interesting, but the following was disturbing.
        >
        >The site only opened on a few days ago and already this has appeared:
        >
        >"According to our webhost, ISCID was subject to a Denial Of Service
        >(DOS)Attack for approximately 6 hours (7:30am-1:30pm Eastern US) on
        >2/28/2002. A denial of service attack is a purposeful attempt to overload
        >the web server (apparently someone doesn't like us very much). Users who
        >tried to access the site were either denied access or pages loaded at
        >miserably slow speeds. We are sorry for the inconvenience that this may have
        >caused."
        >
        >Why am I not surprised? And why am I not surprised that some opponents of ID
        >would indeed not feel sorry to stoop to this sophomoric level of "debate"?

        Given the fanatical level of hatred of ID on the part of some evolutionists
        (which, since they equate it with creationism, amounts to a thinly disguised
        hatred of God), I guess it should be expected.

        After all, if they follow the lead of the Oxford Professor for the Public
        Understanding of Science, they will regard IDers as "insane ...or wicked"
        so almost anything would go as far as silencing it.

        MG>I would like to recount an incident that happened just last Sunday. That
        >morning when my family and I arrived at our church fellowship we found that
        >the church building (we are a small congregation in an old church) had been
        >broken into and the walls daubed with slogans and insults (comments that in
        >other, more "politically correct" contexts might be termed "hate speech"),
        >doors broken off, cupboards rifled, a phone stolen and generally the church
        >desecrated. From some of the slogans it would appear that the culprits were
        >students from the local high school.

        I am sorry to hear that. Have the police discovered who (no names please)
        they are?

        MG>Once not so long ago a church would have been spared this treatment because
        >of an unconscious shared assumption that it was a "sacred" place, the "house
        >of God", "a place of worship" but I guess in a world where God is dead,
        >"science" having played a main role in killing him, anything goes. Vandalism
        >of churches is now endemic. I'm sure most here deplore this action and
        >distance themselves from it in every way, though some might seek to "excuse"
        >it as the result of the excesses of bored youth or due to the social
        >isolation and neglect of young people in an uncaring society but can I just
        >point out that there are no gangs of kids from church youth groups going
        >around engaging in such wanton and mindless destruction.

        As it happens, only just before last Christmas, our Church of Christ aboriginal
        mission church in Port Hedland, in the North-West of Western Australia,
        was burned down by a youth. Ironically, its stock of clothes intended for
        the poor and needy (which he and his parents were) was burnt along with
        it.

        Personally I believe this rise in general lawlessness (2 Thess 2:8-9),
        directed at all forms of authority is a sign of the approaching End (Rev
        20:3), and so there is probably a spiritual dimension to these attacks
        upon the Church.

        MG>Who are the Vandals and Goths of the present generation? From whence the
        >ideology, the nihilism, the self-centeredness, the destructiveness that
        >motivates them? I recently read comments on this list directed against the
        >"evil" influence of YEC and of Scripture Union Kids Clubs and of the
        >Salvation Army on the minds of impressionable young people and society's
        >values in general.

        Once one turns one's back on God, one must (perhaps subconsciously) justify
        one's decision by trying to make out it is all God's fault. The YECs are
        therefore just a convenient scape-goat.

        MG>Huh? Remember that movie from the early sixties? "It's a
        >mad, mad, mad, mad world". There's an ad on TV here in my state where a
        >little girl, extolling the virtues of a homebuilder who creates a
        >"wonderful" home environment in which to live, intones the punchline "Thank
        >you Mr Hooker!".
        >
        >Perhaps the bigger picture is: Thank you Mr Darwin, thank you Mr Marx, thank
        >you Mr Freud , thank you Mr Neitsche?

        Agreed, but they were just the instruments, who reflected the spirit of the
        age, i.e. "mechanical materialism":

        "Meantime I have spoken of their contributions as forming a single
        stream of influence which I have called mechanical materialism: the
        cold world in which man's feelings are illusory and his will
        powerless. This merging of three disciplines and subject matters
        under one head calls for explanation. The explanation is that none
        of our three men was content to stay within his specialty. Darwin
        made sallies into psychology and social science; Marx was a
        philosopher, historian, sociologist, and would-be scientist in
        economics; Wagner was an artist-philosopher who took the
        Cosmos for his province. Moreover, after allowing for superficial
        differences, we find so many links uniting Darwinism, Marxism, and
        Wagnerism that the three doctrines can be seen as the
        crystallization of a whole century's beliefs. Each of the systems may
        be likened to a few facets of that crystal: at the core they are
        indistinguishable. Though the three authors worked independently
        and were acclaimed by their own age at different times, they
        expressed with astonishing unity one common thought; they
        showed in their lives, and even in their characters, one common
        attitude; they imposed on their contemporaries one unified view of
        themselves. So much so, that it would be hard to find in the whole
        history of Western civilization a corresponding trio to share the
        mirroring of a single epoch with such perfect parallelism." (Barzun
        J., "Darwin, Marx, Wagner: Critique of a Heritage," [1941],
        Doubleday Anchor: Garden City NY, Second Edition, 1958, p.7)

        [...]

        Steve

        PS: I meant to include this tagline in the previous post about Marx, etc.

        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
        "This means that the materials of our proposed stock taking will be diverse:
        biography, criticism, history, philosophy-all converging on the same point,
        which is the dominance of materialism. Some of the biographical
        connections are of course well known. It is a commonplace that Marx felt
        his own work to be the exact parallel of Darwin's. He even wished to
        dedicate a portion of Das Kapital to the author of The Origin of Species."
        (Barzun J., "Darwin, Marx, Wagner: Critique of a Heritage," [1941],
        Doubleday Anchor: Garden City NY, Second Edition, 1958, p.7-8)
        Stephen E. Jones sejones@... http://members.iinet.net.au/~sejones
        Moderator: CreationEvolutionDesign@yahoogroups.com
        Group: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CreationEvolutionDesign
        --------------------------------------------------------------------------
      • hecd2
        ... the new ... it out. ... overload ... Users who ... at ... may have ... opponents of ID ... of debate ? ... That ... found that ... had been ... (comments
        Message 3 of 4 , Mar 2, 2002
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          --- In CreationEvolutionDesign@y..., "Mark Gosling" <markg@p...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Steve and Group,
          >
          > Steve you recently posted information from William Dembski about
          the new
          > ISCID "brainstorms" discussion forum site. So I thought I'd check
          it out.
          > Very interesting, but the following was disturbing.
          >
          > The site only opened on a few days ago and already this has
          appeared:
          >
          > "According to our webhost, ISCID was subject to a Denial Of Service
          > (DOS)Attack for approximately 6 hours (7:30am-1:30pm Eastern US) on
          > 2/28/2002. A denial of service attack is a purposeful attempt to
          overload
          > the web server (apparently someone doesn't like us very much).
          Users who
          > tried to access the site were either denied access or pages loaded
          at
          > miserably slow speeds. We are sorry for the inconvenience that this
          may have
          > caused."
          >
          > Why am I not surprised? And why am I not surprised that some
          opponents of ID
          > would indeed not feel sorry to stoop to this sophomoric level
          of "debate"?
          >
          >
          > I would like to recount an incident that happened just last Sunday.
          That
          > morning when my family and I arrived at our church fellowship we
          found that
          > the church building (we are a small congregation in an old church)
          had been
          > broken into and the walls daubed with slogans and insults
          (comments that in
          > other, more "politically correct" contexts might be termed "hate
          speech"),
          > doors broken off, cupboards rifled, a phone stolen and generally
          the church
          > desecrated. From some of the slogans it would appear that the
          culprits were
          > students from the local high school.
          >
          > Once not so long ago a church would have been spared this treatment
          because
          > of an unconscious shared assumption that it was a "sacred" place,
          the "house
          > of God", "a place of worship" but I guess in a world where God is
          dead,
          > "science" having played a main role in killing him, anything goes.
          Vandalism
          > of churches is now endemic. I'm sure most here deplore this action
          and
          > distance themselves from it in every way, though some might seek
          to "excuse"
          > it as the result of the excesses of bored youth or due to the social
          > isolation and neglect of young people in an uncaring society but
          can I just
          > point out that there are no gangs of kids from church youth groups
          going
          > around engaging in such wanton and mindless destruction.
          >
          > Who are the Vandals and Goths of the present generation? From
          whence the
          > ideology, the nihilism, the self-centeredness, the destructiveness
          that
          > motivates them? I recently read comments on this list directed
          against the
          > "evil" influence of YEC and of Scripture Union Kids Clubs and of the
          > Salvation Army on the minds of impressionable young people and
          society's
          > values in general. Huh? Remember that movie from the early
          sixties? "It's a
          > mad, mad, mad, mad world". There's an ad on TV here in my state
          where a
          > little girl, extolling the virtues of a homebuilder who creates a
          > "wonderful" home environment in which to live, intones the
          punchline "Thank
          > you Mr Hooker!".
          >
          > Perhaps the bigger picture is: Thank you Mr Darwin, thank you Mr
          Marx, thank
          > you Mr Freud , thank you Mr Neitsche?
          >
          >
          > Mark Gosling

          I am very sorry about what happened to your church and there is no
          excuse for behaviour like that.

          However, I hope you realise that there is also no excuse for
          labelling scientists as 'Vandals and Goths of the present
          generation'. I am an agnostic and a scientist and I deeply resent
          any suggestion on your part that you are in any way more moral or
          living a better or more upright life than I am because you believe in
          a religion and I don't.

          Furthermore, although it is a mantra from Steve and others on this
          list that science and evolution are responsible for the ills of the
          world, the truth or otherwise of the ToE is not a moral issue. Your
          attempting to make it so is no more valid than attempts to make the
          Copernican view of the universe a moral issue.

          I think all ideologist kettles had better be careful about which
          other ideological pots they are calling black. You have put the
          spotlight on fascists and Marxists in this post. We should not
          forget the Christian atrocities in the crusades or the colonisation
          of Central America (wiping out an entire civilisation) or in the
          colonisation of Africa and the slave trade or in the persecution of
          Jews throughout history. We can add Genghis Khan, the Mongols,
          Muslim atrocities against Christians, the Vandals and Goths against
          Rome. Scotland is a shadow of what it should be because the bulk of
          the people were driven off the land by Christian landowners. I could
          go on.

          None of this has anything to do with science and as I say I am
          insulted by your suggestion that I and other scientists are any less
          moral than you are.

          I do sympathise with you about your church, but please understand
          that the truth or otherwise of the scientific ToE is not a moral
          issue.

          Alec
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