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Re: The Digest of Days Bygone

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  • carlkukol
    just doing some thinking and wondering if our group is set up to have a chat room (not chat) which we have, but is live communication. it seems that since our
    Message 1 of 15 , Oct 31, 2003
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      just doing some thinking and wondering if our group is set up to have a chat room (not chat) which we have, but is live communication. it seems that since our group is diversified in age, era and some people may want to reminisce but others wish to discuss current events, that it would be nice to have an additional message board for people who want to discuss issues with out offending other members of this site.

      yes, i understand that we could share our thoughts via email, but it would be more beneficial as a group.

      hey moderator(s), is this possible?

      carl kukol
      class of '72
    • Your Friendly Moderator
      ... Carl, Anything is possible. Here s my long-winded reply to your post. For those not having the time to read, please scroll through to the next message.
      Message 2 of 15 , Nov 1, 2003
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        --- In CraftonReunion@yahoogroups.com, "carlkukol" <carlkukol@a...> wrote:

        > just doing some thinking and wondering if our group is set up to have a chat room (not chat) which we have, but is live communication. it seems that since our group is diversified in age, era and some people may want to reminisce but others wish to discuss current events, that it would be nice to have an additional message board for people who want to discuss issues with out offending other members of this site.
        >
        > yes, i understand that we could share our thoughts via email, but it would be more beneficial as a group.
        >
        > hey moderator(s), is this possible?
        >
        > carl kukol
        > class of '72


        Carl,

        Anything is possible. Here's my long-winded reply to your post. For those not having the time to read, please scroll through to the next message.

        Perhaps you have an idea whose time has come? It's not altogether clear (to me) what it is, from your post.

        The eGroup HAS a real-time Chatroom, available 7x24. Just log in with your Yahoo ID and click "Chat" on the menu. I believe Loring Jahnke held some Chat sessions, a while back, with Cougs around the world. You are more than welcome to set up a Chat and publicize it on the eGroup. That is your choice.

        As for as an "additional" message board, everyone has the freedom to start one. Perhaps you would like to start and maintain an eGroup? It would give you the forum you seek and would occupy some of your spare time. It only takes a few minutes and can keep you occupied for years.... LOL

        As an alternative to this forum, and creating your own, you might also try posting on the "Ginkgo Gang" (you'll need an Invitation) or the "Carlynton Alumni" site. Both are Crafton oriented and certainly welcome good thoughts.

        We've never wished to be ALL things to ALL people. Our goals are to be a pretty good way of keeping in touch, a place for sharing good thoughts, a facilitator of promoting our Annual All-Years Reunions and a vehicle for locating folks that have moved away.

        Based upon those goals, we've atracted some wonderful people (including you) who've shared some wonderful posts. If we're fortunate, our success will continue. But our success is based upon your (and other individuals) contributions to the forum, not the Moderators. What can you, and others, do?

        I note that Marian Moran (Lear), '66, took the time to upload pictures to the eGroup, of the Mini Reunion that was held in Melbourne. They are in the Photo Albums > "2003-Oct-FL Mini Reunion" folder that she created. Everyone has the opportunity to do this; but it takes time and effort. We only ask that pictures be suitable for viewing by those UNDER 21, lol. Thank you, Marian!!!

        Then, Will Kelton, '68, is updating his CATWOK website, giving it a new look and adding content to make your visits unique and pleasureable. This also takes time and effort. Thank you, Will!!!

        Because of their efforts, I have begun a complete facelift of the Crafton Reunion website. If I am lucky, I will be finished in another 24 to 48 hours. The new Menu will allow easier navigation, there will be more pages to see and less pages will be hidden behind embedded links. Hopefully, it will be an improvement... We will let you know when it's done.

        So, other peoples' efforts DO make a difference and DO contribute to our success. We welcome yours, as well.

        For all those other things that people think they need in their life; there's the rest of the Internet. There are forums for everything under the sun... and a few that should remain in the dark. Happy surfing!!!

        Thanks,
        Your Friendly Moderator
      • iq4o
        Hello everyone, N.B. First and foremost I want to say I have nothing against posts that talk about bygone days! Ci mancherebbe! (as they say in Italian) I
        Message 3 of 15 , Nov 4, 2003
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          Hello everyone,

          N.B. First and foremost I want to say I have nothing against posts that talk about bygone days! Ci mancherebbe! (as they say in Italian)

          I trust you're all living a happy and satisfying life wherever you are.

          Well, I'd like to throw my two cents in regarding the original nature or 'sometimes' orientation of the eGroup.

          The fact that we've talked about our bygone days seems inevitable. Our community as a common denominator linked what would typically seem dismembered elements into a whole.

          But bygone days are what they are – gone.

          I find it extremely interesting to reflect on what a next-door neighbor has to say about current events or how they feel about life.

          Gosh! Here we have our old friends and neighbors telling us what life means to them. Where else on this planet we call home can we find a similar experience?

          I personally find it fascinating to think that someone who grew up in Crafton has feelings and thoughts about life that they want to share with us.

          More than just saxophones, we should let the trumpets blare.

          Human activity has never 'only' involved only the past, nor should we.

          If as members of a common community we can't listen to, respect and accept our differences, then what kind of community are we?

          Living in Italy I see a different world, but yet I come from Crafton. Aren't you interested?

          Live from Italy

          Karl F. Stewart, '68
        • luluchoo2003
          ... Bene! Bene! Bene!! I couldn t agree with you MORE, Karl!!! So, one big question I have: What is the Italian perspective regarding the US involvement in
          Message 4 of 15 , Nov 4, 2003
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            --- In CraftonReunion@yahoogroups.com, "iq4o" <kstewart@t...> wrote:

            > I find it extremely interesting to reflect on what a next-door neighbor has to say about current events or how they feel about life.
            >
            > Gosh! Here we have our old friends and neighbors telling us what life means to them. Where else on this planet we call home can we find a similar experience?
            >
            > I personally find it fascinating to think that someone who grew up in Crafton has feelings and thoughts about life that they want to share with us.
            >
            > Living in Italy I see a different world, but yet I come from Crafton. Aren't you interested?
            >
            > Live from Italy
            >
            > Karl F. Stewart, '68


            Bene! Bene! Bene!! I couldn't agree with you MORE, Karl!!!

            So, one big question I have: What is the Italian perspective regarding the US involvement in Iraq? How does the Italian press portray Americans? What is the sentiment towards Americans there?

            Thank YOU, kind sir! Ciao!

            Lou Ann Chamberlin
            Class of '67
          • shoup58
            ... Karl Stewart, Scott Green, et al. I am afraid that the intent of my recent posting concerning The Digest of Days Bygone has been, to the greatest extent,
            Message 5 of 15 , Nov 5, 2003
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              --- In CraftonReunion@yahoogroups.com, "iq4o" <kstewart@t...> wrote:

              > Hello everyone,
              >
              > N.B. First and foremost I want to say I have nothing against posts that talk about bygone days! Ci mancherebbe! (as they say in Italian). . . .
              >
              > . . . .Living in Italy I see a different world, but yet I come from Crafton. Aren't you interested?
              >
              > Live from Italy
              >
              > Karl F. Stewart, '68


              Karl Stewart, Scott Green, et al.

              I am afraid that the intent of my recent posting concerning "The Digest of Days Bygone" has been, to the greatest extent, misunderstood. At the risk of "beating a dead horse", I would like to try to clarify the point I was trying to make.

              Karl, like you, it is the days of bygone that I personally most long to see in the Digest. But, certainly not limited to those days; anything and everything about Crafton, CHS, the Burgh, and the community life in general, whether past or present. I have also lived in Germany for the past 33 years, and my world is as distinctly different as yours. Nevertheless, Crafton remains "home" to me.

              Scott, you can make your postings as long as you like and, even if they take an hour to read, I would certainly never hit the "Delete" button, as you suggested. Your entries contain just that which I would always hope to see, and are most interesting to me, as they surely are to the group as a whole. It was the couple of contributors who sometimes carried on a barrage of entries about nothing even closely related to the three goals of the Crafton Reunion Group (as stated in the home page) to whom I was referring:

              1) Promote better communication
              2) Preserve our collective heritage
              3) Enhance our sense of community

              I am assuming that "Promote better communication" means, communication on subjects similar to those which I related to Karl.

              To satisfy myself that I was not "way out in left field" with my remarks, I have done a statistical review of the e-Group postings for September and October 2003. The results may be of interest to the group as a whole, and do support that which I alledged in my very much debated posting.

              In September and October there were 316 Entries (not including those made by our Moderator), covering 122 Topics, submitted by 102 Contributors. That represents an average of 3.1 Entries per Contributor. Interesting to note though, two Contributors alone submitted respectively 35 and 27 Entries each! Those two people represent 2% of all Contributors, but submitted 19% of all
              entries.

              I agree that everyone should have the freedom to speak his or her mind, and the entries should in no way be censored or restricted. But, in my opinion, a few contributors have certainly gone overboard in exercising their rights.

              Last of all, considering 1125 regular Subscribers to the e-Group, those 102 Contributors in September and October represent only 9% of the total group. I personally would hope that more Subscribers would participate, if to do nothing else but clobber me and my comments.

              Regardless of ensuing reactions to this entry, I promise not to continue to expound upon this matter because I do not want my contributions to become a mirrored image of those which I have personally criticized.

              John Shoup, '58
            • Bill Cain
              ... John, Thank you for taking the time to compile those statistics and present them within the framework of a cogent post. I really learned from them. I m
              Message 6 of 15 , Nov 5, 2003
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                --- In CraftonReunion@yahoogroups.com, "shoup58" <john.shoup@t...> wrote:

                > In September and October there were 316 Entries (not including those made by our Moderator), covering 122 Topics, submitted by 102 Contributors. That represents an average of 3.1 Entries per Contributor. Interesting to note though, two Contributors alone submitted respectively 35 and 27 Entries each! Those two people represent 2% of all Contributors, but submitted 19% of all entries.
                >
                > Last of all, considering 1125 regular Subscribers to the e-Group, those 102 Contributors in September and October represent only 9% of the total group. I personally would hope that more Subscribers would participate, if to do nothing else but clobber me and my comments.
                >
                > Regardless of ensuing reactions to this entry, I promise not to continue to expound upon this matter because I do not want my contributions to become a mirrored image of those which I have personally criticized.
                >
                > John Shoup, '58


                John,

                Thank you for taking the time to compile those statistics and present them within the framework of a cogent post. I really learned from them.

                I'm astounded that 102 different people posted in any 2 month period. I might have guessed 40 to 60, and I read and approved every post. Your numbers really surprised me. As for the 19% of posts, by 2 Subscribers, I will not bash them. You see...

                <putting on Philosopher's hat>

                Each of us has a different role to play in this life. Our scripts are not the same, and so neither is our resultant outward appearance to the world. I'm reminded of one of Hub's recent posts about a deceased friend... Not everyone is what they seem at first blush.

                So the fact that the eGroup is more important to some, as a social tool and a communications outlet, is no big deal to me. In fact, I hope to lasso some of those passions for the good of the Crafton Reunion effort. But that's a story that has yet to be written...

                I would be willing to bet that our ratio of posters to lurkers is pretty damn good, compared to other Groups. Maybe someone could do a survey on another Group and let us know how that forum compares, ratio-wise.

                Remember, there are hundreds of our Subscribers who email back and forth, read each Digest and enjoy this eGroup, yet NEVER post. Nothing at all wrong with that. Just Human Nature and the spectrum of people.

                <taking off Philosopher's hat, putting on Statistician's hat>

                I also seem to remember someone mentioning that 24 posts in a Digest was too much. (No names mentioned, JS) At that rate, if everyone in the eGroup only posted once, and had to wait for everyone else to post... before they got a second post, it would take OVER a month and a half to get back to them. I kinda like the 102 figure... LOL

                Bill Cain, '65
              • Susan Stephens
                ... Dittos to Judy for a return to a Digest of Bygone Days . I have found myself in the same attitude, of late, that she describes. Susan Neely Stephens, 65
                Message 7 of 15 , Nov 6, 2003
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                  --- In CraftonReunion@yahoogroups.com, "Monaco, Judy" <monaco@p...> wrote:

                  > Sometimes when I see the excruciatingly long diatribes by certain individuals on their soapboxes, it just discourages me from even bothering to open the Digests ~ even a first glance at the topic's section will cause me to just hit delete.
                  >
                  > Judy Alexander Monaco, '64


                  Dittos to Judy for a return to a "Digest of Bygone Days".

                  I have found myself in the same attitude, of late, that she describes.

                  Susan Neely Stephens, '65
                • loringejahnke@tiscali.it
                  ciao ragazzi: That s italiano for hi, guys. Cougars is not in my Italiano-English dictionary so I can t say ciao cougs. Loring E. Jahnke (1969) here.
                  Message 8 of 15 , Nov 8, 2003
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                    ciao ragazzi:

                    That's italiano for "hi, guys." "Cougars" is not in my Italiano-English dictionary so I can't say "ciao cougs."

                    Loring E. Jahnke (1969) here. Formerly, island girl, now in Italy so say "ciao bella" to me :-)

                    I wrote the list about Halloween after my sister Lynn posted about trick-or-treating in our neighborhood (the Third Ward area around South Linwood and Hawthorne Avenues) and our sister Susan's FABULOUS, MEMORABLE mummy costume but my post evaporated. I will not rewrite it but I mention that Susan's mummy was the simplest and funniest costume I think I have ever seen.

                    You are probably thinking, "No one has that many ACE bandages" and you would be correct except if one is a physician. We weren't a physician but the guy across the street was. Ben Christie, M.D. (R.I.P.) That's where Susan got all the bandages. She literally wrapped herself from the tippytop of her head to the tippytips of her toes and I think she would have walked out that way but it was October, of course, and our mother made her wear shoes.

                    Hence, my sister Lynn's description of Susan as a mummy in penny loafers.

                    There was something else un-mummy about her. We had a boxer (dog). Susan always took Moe trick-or-treating with her. She often got extra treats for him but she really took Moe along because she loved his company, not to get extra treats. So it was not just Susan as a mummy in loafers. Susan was a mummy in loafers accompanied by a boxer with a red tie around his neck.

                    Where was our camera?

                    Moving on.

                    Karl F. Stewart (1968) wrote from Italy. Lou Ann Chamberlain (1967) responded from Florida. I respond from Italy to Lou Ann, who, parenthetically, was co-editor with my brother (William R. Jahnke, 1967) of the 1967 Gingko :-)

                    Lou Ann wrote something about wanting to know what people over here thought.

                    I say, "Funny you should ask."

                    Because earlier this year, month after month after month, every time I rang home or elsewhere to friends in the States, I grilled them. "How do people there feel about a/the war in Iraq?" I knew what people said in Europe but I wanted to know what people thought in America, what my family and friends thought. The war was a very big deal over here. It was in Europe's backyard, not ours in America. I quit asking mom what people thought because she doesn't like discussing controversial subjects but I asked everyone else. I truly wanted to know the political climate in the States. Like Karl and Lou Ann, I welcome thoughts.

                    Karl commented that some of us actually ARE interested, not only in the past, but what people from a common background think about post-Crafton stuff. Some years ago, I was on a boxer (dog) list and when boxer story posts got thin due to nothing happening or no stories popping into mind, people would go OT (Off-Topic), perhaps to keep the list alive. Some people disliked it but some of us loved, for a change, to hear varying opinions OT from people drawn together because of something in common. The same thing happens here.

                    If I might sorta paraphrase Hap, "Say upfront what you are writing about and remind people that Delete is up and to the right."

                    To respond to Lou Ann's interesting inquiry. . . hmmmm.

                    One answer is easy:

                    I have been in Italy and around France for 1.7 years and I have never met an anti-American. Never, never, never, never, never.

                    Neither here nor in France.

                    They are merely anti-war.

                    Officially, Italy supported the war but the italians on the street do not.

                    For what it is worth, I read somewhere an explanation that the U.S. uses force because it has it; Europe uses diplomacy because it does not have force.

                    I suppose an analogy might be Karl and me. Karl Stewart (1968) could be confronted by a thug. He is 6' 3" and 200+ pounds. He could deal with the situation with strength, if necessary. I am 5' 4" and about 120 lb. I would have to resort to nonphysical means of deterrence. Either run like a bat-out-of-hell or talk the thug to death :-)

                    Karl is the U.S.

                    I am France.

                    But the issue comes down to more than just power. We, the U.S., are big. We are also almost surrounded by gigantic amounts of water. Like a humongous moat and Canada is a nonH2O part of the moat. No one would attack the US by flying over Canada. Non one would come in via Mexico. The Pacific Ocean is a formidable body of water to cross. And look at the Atlantic. How many hours to cross either? I think it is telling that the 9/11 suicide bombers did not come from Europe or Asia, from the other side of the moat, nor from the north or the south. They came from within the ramparts. Which is not to say that they could not attack from afar but that it would be more difficult to avoid detection. Remember Pearl Harbor. Even though no one heeded the warning, we saw the planes coming.

                    France is almost surrounded by land which means potential invaders can stroll right in. Even the Maginot Line didn't stop Germany; they walked around it. Italy is surrounded by water but not vast amounts of it, like the States. Italy is inches away from invaders from North Africa. Hell, clandestini, which is italiano for illegal immigrants, sneak in all the time on boats that are not much more than floating washing machines. It doesn't take imagination to appreciate what a determined foe could do to Italy. Just study history. Invaders have been coming for milleniums.

                    I don't know whether that explains things as someone else might see them. War is a whole different experience in Europe.

                    Lest some members think this post is not sufficiently Crafton-oriented, Iet me emphasize that I grew up there, at 94 South Linwood Avenue. I attended Third Ward School, arguably the most fun of the three wards and I still cannot believe they razed that aging firetrap. Surely, there was some way to save it. I remember Third Ward School much the way Scarlet O'Hara rhapsodized about Tara.

                    I have lived in various states, on the island of Guam (an American territory) and I am now in Italy. I drag Crafton with me everywhere I go. Crafton is mental baggage that I value and love. I think, "How lucky I was to have grown up there." When I travel to France, I drive everyone totally crazy trying to communicate in the French that I learned from Miss Janet Hutchison, the MIA CHS French teacher. The French actually speak English very well even though they often act like they don't understand. I didn't spend four bloody academic years in Miss Hutchison's room 201 at Crafton High School so that I could go to France and speak English. So I think it is helpful when the French refuse to speak English to me. They sorta force me to think harder. Numbers, in particular, drive me crazy. I remember Miss Hutchison making us all stand, going around the room, making us say the numbers. I don't know if I explained that well so let me retry: We all stood up. The first person said, "Un." The next person in the row said, "deux" and so forth, all around the room with those unbearably hot radiators underneath the windows trying to heat the entire room and boiling the backs of those of us in the rear row. Numbers in French still drive me crazy so I drive the French crazy, too, struggling to remember them. You guys should see me try to buy a stamp. This can be a ten-minute ordeal just to send a postcard to the states.

                    The French are a pain in the ass if you don't respect them but they are unfailingly patient if you actually try to communicate in their language. They don't care how badly you mutilate the language as long as you try.

                    And they didn't want war.

                    By way of a displaced Craftonite's anecdote, way before the war, I started not telling people I was American. In Italy, they don't know differences in accents so if you speak English, you could be from any English-speaking country from the U.S to Singapore. At some point, someone asked me if I was from Britain and for some nonspecific reason, I answered "No, I am from California."

                    OHMIGOD, what a reaction. He exclaimed, "Baywatch!"

                    I found this hugely funny so I continued to answer "California" when asked where I was from. Women would say "Spiaggia" ("beach") and guys would say either "Baywatch" or "Pamela Anderson."

                    In the end, California tends to separate you from Bush and a vaguely anonymous America but I truly started saying it for fun. Florida might work but Europeans might not know states like Iowa or Arkansas.

                    My parting comment, so to speak, is to quote a guy named Ambrose Bierce. I am not sure where he was from originally. I know that he wrote from America and that in later life, he went to Mexico and was never heard from again so he presumably died there. In America, he wrote "The Devil's Dictionary" which was a tongue-in-cheek commentary. He defined "war" as the way Americans learn geography. Mr. Curry would be amused.

                    ciao, ragazzi. ciao, ciao, ciao//loring
                  • iq4o
                    ... Hello, Here in Italy over the past month, I ve heard numerous people express their sorrow for the loss of U.S. military and Iraqi civilian life. Many here
                    Message 9 of 15 , Nov 9, 2003
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                      --- In CraftonReunion@yahoogroups.com, "luluchoo2003" <luluchoo@b...> wrote:

                      > So, one big question I have: What is the Italian perspective regarding the US involvement in Iraq? How does the Italian press portray Americans? What is the sentiment towards Americans there?
                      >
                      > Lou Ann Chamberlin
                      > Class of '67


                      Hello,

                      Here in Italy over the past month, I've heard numerous people express their sorrow for the loss of U.S. military and Iraqi civilian life. Many here grieve for the constant loss of life and see it as a tragedy. And many probably see it as a tragedy they think could have been avoided.

                      My guess would be that 67% of the Italian population was against the war in Iraq before the U.S. invasion of that country, and that 67% are still against the war in Iraq. But I've never heard hatred toward Americans in the voices of those who have expressed their opposition to the war.

                      Maybe when I first came over to Italy in 1981, I could have hear something vaguely anti-American as a residue of the resentment to Vietnam. But those views were few.

                      Italians probably have what I would best term, an overall "respect" for Americans.

                      But why would Italians/Europeans be inclined to stay out of Iraq?

                      Maybe from a historical point of view, events over the last fifty years have shown Europeans that any intention to intervene in the Middle East would have called for more caution. Britain had to abandon Palestine (1948). The French gave up Algeria (1962). European capital had to bail out of Beirut, and Lebanon (1975). And the Russians had to crawl out of Afghanistan (1989).

                      Europeans have not had positive military experiences in "Arab" countries. That they warned against military intervention in Iraq could maybe also have been taken as a piece of advice based on certain experiences, and not as some would have thought, a lack of gratitude for American sacrifices in recent history.

                      Look at Palestine more than 50 years later. Or Algeria or Lebanon today. Or Afghanistan. Time has not healed their wounds. They continue to bleed, and tragically so.

                      And this isn't even factoring in that any attempt to economically develop a country today (which was one of the reasons for invading Iraq) has to take into account that out of 193 countries, 54 are poorer today than they were 10 years ago! So how could anyone honestly hope to develop Iraq economically in such a similar economically difficult period? Even industrialized Western countries with a highly developed economic system are having trouble today.

                      But Italians like Americans. In fact, I have a suggestion to make. If you see an Italian in your neighborhood, take him or her (and their kids) out for lunch. You'll all have a good time.

                      In conclusion, I think Europeans like and respect Americans, but they don't want to be told what to do. They probably like to feel that they are a part of a decision and less a part of the consequences of a decision. Just like most of us would probably prefer feeling.

                      Spreading Crafton's seeds of goodwill here in Italy

                      Karl F. Stewart, '68
                    • Pat Voye
                      ... Maybe this will answer your question, at least partially. In March, just about three days after the war in Iraq started, I (along with six family members)
                      Message 10 of 15 , Nov 10, 2003
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                        --- In CraftonReunion@yahoogroups.com, "luluchoo2003" <luluchoo@b...> wrote:

                        > So, one big question I have: What is the Italian perspective regarding the US involvement in Iraq?
                        >
                        > Lou Ann Chamberlin
                        > Class of '67


                        Maybe this will answer your question, at least partially. In March, just about three days after the war in Iraq started, I (along with six family members) traveled to Italy to spend a week in Positano on the Amalfi Coast. It was just beautiful and we had a great time.

                        On the way over, we all wondered just how we would be received and treated as Americans. We had no problems whatever and were treated politely by all we met.
                        The woman who was the housekeeper at the villa where we stayed was very friendly and spoke English very well. When the subject of the war came up, Elena said she was not much in favor of the war, and we said that we were not in favor of it either. Then she said "But you know, it's just like the Americans to want to help everyone else. Now we won't talk about it anymore."

                        And we didn't.

                        Pat Gannon Voye, CHS '46
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