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  • fraluchi
    - We are fed up with the general mood here. - We don t want anymore regulations and restrictions, life has just about become impossible here. - This country
    Message 1 of 27 , Aug 31, 2006
      - We are fed up with the general mood here.
      - We don't want anymore regulations and restrictions, life has just
      about become impossible here.
      - This country makes the decision to leave easy.
      - We don't care to where we go, as long as we leave from here.

      No, this is not another Gringo wanting to come to Costa Rica. These
      comments came in a recent German TV report.
      It's amazing how many people in our "civilized and democratic"
      countries are willing to sacrifice house, job, school, etc. just
      because they think that elsewhere life is easier!

      Here in Costa Rica we look forward to the soon to be revised edition
      of "From Paradize to Potholes".
      Some citizens are also proposing a "Catedra de Huecologia" at the UCR.
    • barrystevens2001
      ... After watching and learning more about how an indigenous culture operates - one thing is clear - their culture has been sustainable for thousands of years.
      Message 2 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
        --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, "fraluchi" <fraluchi@...>
        wrote:
        >
        > We are fed up with ... mood ...
        > This country makes the decision to leave easy.
        > We don't care to where we go, as long as we leave from here.
        >

        After watching and learning more about how an indigenous culture
        operates - one thing is clear - their culture has been sustainable
        for thousands of years. Then, "we" inposed a new set of "rules"
        for "civilization". "Live our way". Control borders. Limit the land
        available to nomadic people. Animals in trouble, water supplies in
        trouble, human food sources in trouble. Tribes in trouble.

        New systems needed - water, sewage, agriculture, and more. The more
        that's in place, the more rules are needed.

        Then we constructed the city. Then, in a stroke of genius, we built
        the elevator. We put skyscrapers in the city. Too many people. Too
        many demands on systems. Too many cars. Air quality turns to... And
        oh my, where DO you put all that sewage? Food supplies dwindle...
        agricultural production and distribution are beefed up (pardon the
        pun) More population. Segments going with food and other basic
        services. More rules, this time on really specific things.

        Now, for the first time in human history, it's possible to take a
        boat ride from the Atlantic to the Pacific - through that
        famous "Northwest Passage" - we apparently have succeeded in melting
        the polar ice cap, which one of our visitors at The Bridge pointed
        out seems to be proceeding at a rapid pace.

        How do we prevent this? General alarm. Gasoline shortages,
        restrictions on use, electric cars, hybrid cars, super-efficient
        cars - emissions control... rules, rules, rules.

        Question: In any civilized society, what does a RULER do?
        Answer: Makes.... "rules". The previous poster wrote of a general
        mood, something like ... "too many rules - bad mood - gotta get out
        of here."

        My response is, you ain't seen nothin' yet. The last population
        doubling ended in 1995, with a global population of 6 billion
        people. The next population doubling - to 12 billion - was expected
        to occur in only 12 years after that. More food shortages, civle
        unrest - we're already seeing the tip of the iceberg.

        Costa Rica is a country without "too many rules." It has a lot of
        virtually unspoiled areas, which is a good thing, since those areas
        have an important product, which they provide for free - oxygen. And
        there's room to grow. Perhaps in this and many other less densely
        populated areas there are places we can move to while "civilization"
        figures itself out.

        Nanci and I wanted to learn how much of this global situation was
        known to the indigenous people here. We had a long discussion with
        Timateo Jackson, a tribal political and spiritual leader inside the
        Indigenous Reserve. He finished his answer by singing a chant in the
        Bribri language... with his son Cesar translating into Spanish. The
        last line of the chant translates this way:

        "...and the white man will come to us for help."

        In the meantime, the locals are noticing that the ocean is rising
        higher and higher in winter storms - last year, reaching the road
        for the first time in their memory. Ten, twenty more feet of ocean
        level, and the winter storms will reach the place we're buying.
        We'll have shorefront property.

        There are those, myself included, who believe that we as a race of
        beings are meant to be here and enjoy this planet to the fullest.
        That the resources of this planet are to be guarded and cared for,
        and used in such a way that we can create, enjoy, and share a
        paradise right here on Earth. And, to understate the situation, as a
        civilization, we might have gotten off on the wrong foot.

        Indeed, Sharif Abdullah, author of "Creating A World That Works For
        Everyone" describes what we've created very simply - he calls
        it "The Mess." His answer to "The Mess", by the way, is to live a
        lifestyle that is very much like an indigenous lifestyle...

        What to do?

        You can see one answer by coming to Costa Rica and visiting Punta
        Mona - Monkey Point. Sustainable living - implemented. Nanci and I
        plan to hike in to Monkey Point soon. I'm told there are no tall
        buildings there. I'd have to see that for myself to believe it.

        There are many other enlightened groups working on "The Mess." They
        term their area "sustainable development." Seek them out. Find out
        what they have learned.

        The more skeptical can follow the advice once given by Bribri
        shamans to their people... "Move to higher ground." The context was
        different, but the reason was the same - too much water.

        It all comes down to individuals. What can WE - Nanci and I - do,
        from our home in Puerto Viejo de Talamanca, Costa Rica? Feed people.
        Send them to school. Help them become self-sufficient. Help with
        their medical needs. And when the opportunity presents itself,
        learn. Help bring out indigenous knowledge that can help the world
        today. Help bring ideas and tools from our culture that can help the
        indigenous. And finally, hope we can inspire others to do these same
        kinds of things in many, many other areas.


        Barry Stevens
        Co-Founder, El Puente - The Bridge
        The Bridge provides educational assistance, food assistance, and
        microloans mainly to indigenous people in the southeastern part of
        Costa Rica. Our goal is to help people help themselves to self-
        sufficiency.
        See us at http://www.elpuente-thebridge.org
      • Fred Morgan
        Just perhaps a cautionary note on the freedom here - don t think it is free from regulation. Just because your neighbors might not be doing it - doesn t mean
        Message 3 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
          Just perhaps a cautionary note on the freedom here - don't think it is
          free from regulation. Just because your neighbors might not be doing it
          - doesn't mean that you won't eventually get stuck in a bad situation
          because of not following the rules.

          There are LOTS of rules and regulations here. Just an example - did you
          know that normally here you can not cut a single tree WITHOUT permission
          from MINAE which require usually a forestry engineer. The rules are much
          more strict here than in the USA for example Oh, and the rules (or what
          is enforced) is different in different zones. If you do the wrong thing,
          you can have a denouncacion against you (and your property).

          Regulations with employees are much more strict too in my experience.

          If you are moving here because you want to be free from government
          interference - well, good luck to you. Latin American governments are
          not known for being efficient.

          just my dos colones
        • Sharon & Dick
          Some of what you say is arguable, Barry. Or maybe not, if we re all willing to accept the inevitable downside of lower (or lowest) technology. To some
          Message 4 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
            Some of what you say is arguable, Barry. Or maybe not, if we're all
            willing to accept the inevitable downside of lower (or lowest)
            technology. To some extent, the burgeoning population is a result of
            humanity's success...success at enabling survival to reproductive age of
            most of our (generic our) progeny...thanks to a safer food supply, but
            especially clean water and vaccination...public health, in other words.
            Nature is wasteful, as is commonly known. Most young die, with only the
            successful living to reproduce. It IS interesting that reproduction
            rates tend to fall when the educational level of women rises. In almost
            every society where contraception is in the hands of women, the birth
            rate falls precipitously. And this is desirable to women because they
            can, with learning and technology, be reasonably sure that the few
            children to whom they give birth will survive childhood. And, with
            learning (I don't like the word education...too passive), women are free
            of the necessity to tolerate unrestrained fertility...the results of
            which are to be seen in the graves of young women all over the world.
            And spoken of in oral tradition.

            I had occasion to attend the International Cultural Forum in Barcelona a
            few years ago, where this was discussed at great length in the setting
            of meetings (some pretty blah blah blah) about reproduction and
            technology. The outcome was the rather depressing conclusion that as
            long as the present political and educational systems persist in the
            world, no serious progress on issues of long-term survival employing
            sustainable technologies could be made.

            Romanticising indigenous culture is counter-productive, but I hear it
            being done almost constantly. Just a small case in point...I worked on
            a medical project, perhaps ill-advised, that went pretty far into the
            interior of the northeast of Brasil to offer whatever help was sensibly
            needed. Goals were modest (good thing!), and we hoped to just identify
            medical emergencies or ongoing problems that could be dealt with on
            site. We found that the indigenous people accepted as normal a level of
            mortality (of all sorts) that would dismay most more technologically
            sophisticated groups, and that life-shortening and life-limiting
            conditions (I'm thinking of high-degree uterine prolapse, miserable
            peripheral vascular status, congenital problems such as cleft lip and
            palate) were accepted as simple "cost of living". Some of the medical
            people were appalled, but others suggested that the tribespeople were
            seemingly "happy", despite a lifespan in the 40s, and discomfort that
            would seem to be incompatible with contentment. Would we consider that
            lifestyle, however natural, acceptable?

            I'm not sure where this takes us, but I know that I've seen a huge
            decrease in the birth rate in Costa Rica since the early 70s, due to
            several factors no doubt, but accompanying more widespread acceptance of
            technology. Most of my Tica friends (I'm 60) have 6 children mas o
            menos. Most of their children have 2 or 3. The difference was
            availability of birth control pills. Maybe years of education as
            well...although most women in both generations didn't finish colegio
            (high school). And the survival of almost all children. Those friends
            of mine almost to a person lost children in infancy...their daughters
            didn't.

            I suppose it comes down to the fact that the wise use of technology
            requires wise people. Those are in short supply, indigenous culture or
            Silicon Valley.. And the computers you make available to the children
            there, and the Depo-Provera I administer to women who request it here,
            are products of technology, not of faith-based or internally generated
            efforts to transmit knowledge or to limit a population. That technology
            is investor-driven (many of us receive pensions invested in the
            industries we're faulting), and consumer driven (many of us depended on
            consumption of goods to generate a paycheck). All of us who sit now in
            Costa Rica running foundations (I have at least 3 friends who do this),
            working for them, or donating to them, need to remember where the money
            and will for this work came from. It came from working for the very
            corporations and governments that we identify as part of the problem. I
            do NOT say this as though it summarises all the variables involved in,
            e.g., planetary survival...but as regards indigenous cultures, at
            least, the dangers seem to be that we either throw the baby out with the
            bathwater (refuse to accept as worthwhile ANY non-technological
            solutions to problems) or we foolishly romaticise them, a la "noble
            savages", who hold the keys to mysteries and spiritual truths
            inaccessible to those from crasser and less "earthy" cultures. And then
            there's the "how do you keep them down on the farm" syndrome. Educated,
            or at least credentialed, people tend to move toward population centers,
            tend to consume more goods, and tend to abandon occupations involving
            manual labor. That would include farming. The numbers of us returning,
            at least part-time, to those activities often pursue them as hobbies the
            "gentleman farmer", the casual gardener, the cross-stitcher. These are
            usually not endeavors that support families or communities...rather,
            they're fed by income from somewhere or something else...often a
            technology-based employment.

            Big problem, small minds working on solution? Dogmas chasing karma?
            And what about CAFTA?:)

            Sharon
          • Arp Laszlo
            i recently watched one of a six episode series on sustainable design on PBS called design e2 (e-squared) and it posited that large cities, with New York
            Message 5 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
              i recently watched one of a six episode series on sustainable design on
              PBS called 'design e2' (e-squared) and it posited that large cities,
              with New York being the focus of the show, are more efficient when it
              comes to using resources. it made me look at NYC in a totally different
              light, a point of view that i hadn't known about or considered.

              --
              Arp Laszlo | inkwire.net

              New York | Chicago | Raleigh
              AIM/iCHat: GoInkwire
              arp@...
            • lm10n84w
              I have a question about the voltage drop in a long service entrance. Some knowledgeable electricians and/or electrical engineers have posted here in the past.
              Message 6 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
                I have a question about the voltage drop in a long service entrance. Some knowledgeable
                electricians and/or electrical engineers have posted here in the past. If one of them would
                contact me directly, I would appreciate it.

                lm10n84w "at" yahoo.com

                Or, if someone could refer me to a person with a good understanding of electrical
                distribution systems, it would be a great help.

                Thanks,

                Lou
              • Fred
                Well said Sharon, Anyone who wishes to think that work in the campo is superior to that of technology - I will buy you a machete and let you chop grass. I bet
                Message 7 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
                  Well said Sharon,

                  Anyone who wishes to think that work in the campo is superior to that
                  of technology - I will buy you a machete and let you chop grass.

                  I bet you quit after the first fer-de-lance. ;-)

                  I do think that a drop in the birthrate is due to what you said, but
                  also the fact there there is no more land to carve up for free. It
                  used to be that the camposinos had lots of kids because of the infant
                  mortality (but with families of 6 to 8 I don't think this is the only
                  reason) but also because of cheap labor.

                  Pay someone just food and have them all sleep pretty much in the same
                  room is pretty cheap. A lot cheaper than hiring workers.

                  United States did the same thing - cheap labor in the form of kids on
                  the farms, but in the cities - this just didn't make any sense
                  anymore, kids are expensive if you can't work them at a young age.

                  just my dos colones
                • barrystevens2001
                  ... Being a technology guy myself, I, too, am stuck on technology, beginning with days at IBM. I, too see, and use, the benefits of technology daily, and
                  Message 8 of 27 , Sep 1, 2006
                    --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, "Fred" <fmorgan@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > Well said Sharon,
                    >
                    > Anyone who wishes to think that work in the campo is superior to that
                    > of technology - I will buy you a machete and let you chop grass.
                    >
                    > I bet you quit after the first fer-de-lance. ;-)

                    Being a "technology guy" myself, I, too, am stuck on technology,
                    beginning with days at IBM.

                    I, too see, and use, the benefits of technology daily, and find no
                    substitute for it.

                    And, when there's grass to be chopped, I hire some people pretty
                    skilled with a machete, who have been introduced to several other kind
                    of gardening tools. One of these guys is in the process of forming a
                    property care business... self-sufficiency comes in many forma.

                    Sharif Abdullah's argument is, put it all together and it's gonna come
                    apart, and very soon.

                    And, in our place, terciopelo # 15 showed up two nights ago. The cat
                    was fussing in the living room, making quite a racket. 2 AM. Strange
                    time. I went into the living room, and the car was playing "snake
                    pong" with a small F-D-L.

                    #14 fell into the shower from a shelf, having come inside when we were
                    having a broken pipe fixed.

                    Gotta love 'em.

                    At any event, we're not trying to romanticize the indigenous culture.
                    However, were telling these folks, and university people, and
                    foundations, and corporate funding sources that we'd like to combine
                    the strengths of what they have with the strengths of what we have and
                    see what comes out.

                    So far, so good.

                    And, if it becomes evident that we have made a mistake or two on the
                    march to technology, it sure wouldn't hurt to admit it.

                    Barry
                  • Thor
                    Sharon, I agree with your general thesis but would suggest that Romanticizing indigenous culture is not counter-productive. Romanticism; This early 19th-
                    Message 9 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                      Sharon, I agree with your general thesis but would suggest that
                      Romanticizing indigenous culture is not counter-productive.



                      Romanticism; This early 19th- century movement elevated the individual,
                      the passions, and the inner life. It stressed strong emotion,
                      imagination, freedom from classical correctness in art forms, and
                      rebellion against social conventions.

                      The concept of the noble savage has particular associations with
                      romanticism and with Rousseau's romantic philosophy in particular.
                      Rousseau's 1754 masterpiece "Discourse On Inequality" which, along with
                      Rousseau's later book, "The Social Contract," was a primary influence of
                      Jefferson and the DemocraticRepublicans. Rousseau opened "The Social
                      Contract" (and jolted Enlightenment thinkers, including - in a big way -
                      Jefferson) with this sentence: "Man is born free, but everywhere is in
                      chains."



                      Ben Franklin had introduced the Albany Plan of Union at a meeting
                      attended by both his pre-revolutionary compatriots and a delegation from
                      the Iroquois Confederation. Franklin had earlier attended an Iroquois
                      Condolence Ceremony in 1753, and used Iroquois symbols both in his
                      language and his design for early American currency. In 1770, Franklin
                      wrote,"Happiness is more generally and equally diffus�d among
                      Savages than in civilized societies. No European who has tasted savage
                      life can afterwards bear to live in our societies."
                      An interesting read�Franklin,Remarks Concerning the Savages
                      <http://garts.latech.edu/bmagee/202/franklin/Savages2.htm>

                      In 1747, Reverend Cadwallader Colden wrote of the growing exodus of
                      Whites for Indian life: "No Arguments, no Intreaties, nor Tears of their
                      Friends and relations, could persuade many of them to leave their new
                      Indian Friends and Acquaintance; several of them that were by the
                      Caressings oftheir Relations persuaded to come Home, in a little Time
                      grew tired of our Manner of living, and ran away again to the Indians,
                      and ended their Days with them."

                      Some suggest these romanticized views transformed the Enlightenment
                      into the Declaration of Independence, and that into the United States of
                      America.



                      Over the next hundred years, as more and more Whites encountered Native
                      Americans, the incidence of Whites joining Indian tribes dramatically
                      increased. Derisively termed "White Indians" by the colonists, thousands
                      of European immigrants to the Americas simply walked away from the
                      emerging American society to join various Indian tribes. Ethnohistorian
                      James Axtell wrote that these early settlers joined the Indians
                      because"they found Indian life to possess a strong sense of community,
                      abundant love, and uncommon integrity�" Axtell quoted two White
                      Indians who wrote to the people they�d left behind that they�d
                      found, "the most perfect freedom, the ease of living, the absence of
                      those cares and corroding solicitudes which so often prevail with us."



                      Colden wrote: "�Indian Children have been carefully educated among
                      the English, cloathed and taught, yet, I think, there is not one
                      Instance, that any of these, after they had Liberty to go among their
                      own People, and were come to Age, would remain with the English, but
                      returned to their own Nations, and became as fond of the Indian Manner
                      as those that knew nothing of a civilized Manner of living."



                      James Bricknell, who was captured by the Delaware in the early 1800s and
                      lived among them for several years before returning to his family, wrote
                      in 1842: "The Delawares are the best people to train up children I ever
                      was with� Their leisure hours are, in a great measure, spent in
                      training up their children to observe what they believe to be
                      right� They certainly follow what they are taught to believe right
                      more closely, and Imight say more honestly, in general, than we
                      Christians� I know I am influenced to good, even at this day, more
                      from what I learned among them, than what I learned among people of my
                      own color."

                      The values of some indigenous cultures seem more in congruence with the
                      virtues that bind humanity and the bonds, which create the universe.
                      However, as you point out, they paid an exorbitant price to live in this
                      manner. Why can we not make it far more affordable?



                      Indigenous Peoples and Neotropical Forest Conservation: Impacts of
                      Protected Area Systems on Traditional Cultures. Indigenous Peoples and
                      Neotropical Forest Conservation
                      <http://www.macalester.edu/environmentalstudies/MacEnvReview/indigenousp\
                      eoples.htm>



                      Environment, Economy and Energy in Costa Rica: The Case Study of
                      Petroleum Exploration in the Province of Límon. Environment, Economy
                      and Energy in Costa Rica
                      <http://www.macalester.edu/environmentalstudies/MacEnvReview/costarica.h\
                      tm>



                      (many of us depended on consumption of goods to generate a paycheck).
                      True and some had to rob (Enron) some kill (soldiers) some
                      pollute(Exxon) and others become politicians in order to survive but
                      does that suggest we are incapable of reform? Do we acquiesce to a
                      system that primarily offers addictive diversions interrupted by
                      ever-sharper episodes of anxiety?

                      Advanced technologies do not preclude any lifestyle from choosing to
                      renounce manual labour. Especially when it is in servitude to others out
                      of necessity rather than choice. Advanced technologies provide us the
                      ability to organize ourselves politically and socially far different
                      than what was required to facilitate Industrialization. Technology has
                      turned what was once fantasy into reality.

                      Romanticism; a portrayal of life as the writer wishes it could be--more
                      adventurous, fantastic, and picturesque. Why Not?



                      I don’t think the current debate should revolve around the issue
                      of what got us to where we are today but rather what can we do with the
                      knowledge and understanding that has been acquired. I suggest that
                      sharing is the best method to turn this information into wisdom. In my
                      opinion, progress comes from accepting empirical observations when they
                      conflict with our romanticized ideals, not instead of them.
                      Regards
                      Thor
                      PS...My neighbor came from a family of 17. He has 2 children. His
                      explanation ....TV



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • barrystevens2001
                      ... Some time ago, I had occasion on another project to speak with a woman with only the name of Alice, who is the historian for the Pequot Tribe in
                      Message 10 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                        --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, "Thor" <tico_can@...> wrote:
                        >(or at least quoted)
                        >
                        > In 1747, Reverend Cadwallader Colden wrote of the growing exodus of
                        > Whites for Indian life:
                        > Some suggest these romanticized views transformed
                        > the Enlightenment
                        > into the Declaration of Independence, and that into the United
                        > States of > America.
                        >

                        Some time ago, I had occasion on another project to speak with a woman
                        with only the name of Alice, who is the historian for the Pequot Tribe
                        in Connecticut. She shed some light on this.

                        You may already know that the Pequots have what some say is the
                        largest and/or most profitable casino in the world, Foxwoods, paying
                        the State of Connecticut $160 million a year to maintain an exclusive
                        license for gambling that nets them $800 million each year. They have
                        been using the cash to fund indigenous projects, including the
                        repatriation of descendents of Pequots sold into slavery by the
                        British in 1635, as a result of a massacre that later became the
                        spoken-history basis for the event known as the Battle of Little Big
                        Horn.

                        Alice described the structure that had been created by the Pequots by
                        1635, including forts, two-story buildings, a police force, lawyers, a
                        two-branch government, and a written constitution. She described how
                        interaction with whites resulted in showing them the written
                        constitution, and how a copy of that document was borrowed and was
                        later used by the framers of the US Constitution.

                        You won't find this in the "normal" history books. Nor, for that
                        matter, will you find the true description of how General Custer
                        really died. An artist, David Humphries Miller, who lived in Rancho
                        Santa Fe, California, did portraits of 72 of the survivors of Little
                        Big Horn, and collected interviews from each as to what happened that
                        day. For a time, the widow of Humphries-Miller gave me and a partner
                        rights to the paintings, and the 2,000 pages of her husband's
                        interview notes. It was striking that the many tribes, who until that
                        event had been warring openly, united to stop the progress...

                        well, that's a discussion for outside this forum.

                        The relationship to Costa Rica and the indigenous? I wouldn't be
                        surprised to see a funding request for indigenous projects in CR
                        presented to that group. And, for anyone interested who comes to visit
                        us in Puerto Viejo de Talamanca, I have a copy of one of the
                        portraits, and his interview notes, here. Be glad to show it around.

                        Thanks for jumpin' in, Thor.

                        Barry Stevens
                        Co-Founder, El Puente - The Bridge
                        The Bridge provides educational assistance, food assistance, and
                        microloans mainly to indigenous people in the southeastern part of
                        Costa Rica. Our goal is to help people help themselves to self-
                        sufficiency.
                        See us at http://www.elpuente-thebridge.org
                      • Sharon & Dick
                        Hey there Thor...interesting thoughts and references. Someone wrote that the word romantic has acquired so many meanings that it now can mean everything and
                        Message 11 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                          Hey there Thor...interesting thoughts and references.

                          Someone wrote that the word romantic has acquired so many meanings
                          that it now can mean everything and nothing, so perhaps I left that too
                          open to refutation by using the term. In your context, basically a
                          literary one (which is valid considering the original meaning of the
                          word as referring to translation of books into the vernacular...leading
                          to the concept of a "romance" or a popular novel) romaticising is free
                          of its negative implications. To me the main negative implication
                          derives from the common belief that the Romantic movement was either a
                          reaction to or a revolt against the ideals of the Age of Enlightenment.
                          I'm voting for enlightenment, I suppose. I was using the word (upon
                          reflection) in the context of its meaning of idealizing myths and the
                          mythologizing of historic events. It wasn't just Thoreau and Baudelaire
                          who fell into that school...German nationalism is also widely seen as
                          derived from romantic thought. My personal fave is Blake ("The road of
                          excess leads to the palace of wisdom."), but that's neither here nor there.

                          I use the word myth in the sense of an unreal or imaginary story,
                          sometimes employed to explain history. I realize that that definition
                          is culled, and that there are other, higher-sounding, definitions, and
                          that mythologizing is a popular occupation these days, but it still
                          carries the meaning of untruth. So sure, idealizing or romanticising
                          may have its uses. Politicians, demogogues, and spin docs have noticed
                          this as well. Still, I suspect that "romanticising indigenous cultures"
                          is more about untruth and selective perception than it is about a useful
                          paradigm (in the sense of model) to apply for the supposed good of a
                          group.

                          We've never had a TV, and we have only 3 kids. I think it's birth
                          control and economics:)

                          Sharon
                        • lesscranky
                          ... meanings I think I have stumbled into a survey course on English literature. I was looking instead for the class on Art History. But now that I m here,
                          Message 12 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                            >
                            > Hey there Thor...interesting thoughts and references.
                            >
                            > Someone wrote that the word romantic has acquired so many
                            meanings


                            I think I have stumbled into a survey course on English literature.
                            I was looking instead for the class on Art History.

                            But now that I'm here, let's see, "I'll see you one Baudelaire and
                            raise you a John Stuart Mill, or maybe a Coleridge for your
                            Wordsworth, arguing over the size of a rose and whether the exact
                            measurement mattered.

                            I'm impressed at your erudition, Thor, but can't quite shake the
                            feeling that this entire debate is - uh - jejune. No one should
                            confuse the simple verb "romanticize" with the movement(s)
                            called "romanticism".

                            I won't go further, for fear of falling into the same pedantry.
                          • Jon Linn
                            lesscranky wrote: I think I have stumbled into a survey course on English literature. That s funny, I thought I stumbled on to GalloPinto. I guess this has
                            Message 13 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                              lesscranky wrote: I think I have stumbled into a survey course on
                              English literature.

                              That's funny, I thought I stumbled on to GalloPinto. I guess this has
                              something to do with Costa Rica.

                              Happy Stumbling.

                              Jon of the LostLinns
                            • Sharon & Dick
                              lesscranky wrote: jejune Yeah, les...Jejune...that s that Marine Camp in North Carolina...
                              Message 14 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                                lesscranky wrote: jejune


                                Yeah, les...Jejune...that's that Marine Camp in North Carolina...
                              • lesscranky
                                ... Couldn t be , Jon. You d be expelled for having opinions contrary to those of the gran poobah .
                                Message 15 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                                  --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, Jon Linn <jonlinn@...> wrote:
                                  >
                                  > That's funny, I thought I stumbled on to GalloPinto.

                                  Couldn't be , Jon. You'd be expelled for having opinions contrary to
                                  those of the "gran poobah".
                                • H. X. OBoyle
                                  ... wrote: ... I know this is a little off topic, but the Pequots were sold into slavery in the late 1630 s in New England following battles
                                  Message 16 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                                    --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, "barrystevens2001"
                                    <barrystevens@...> wrote:
                                    .... including the
                                    > repatriation of descendents of Pequots sold into slavery by the
                                    > British in 1635, as a result of a massacre that later became the
                                    > spoken-history basis for the event known as the Battle of Little Big
                                    > Horn.

                                    I know this is a little off topic, but the Pequots were sold into
                                    slavery in the late 1630's in New England following battles between
                                    them and the British, the Mohegan and Narraganset tribes. The Battle
                                    of Little Big Horn occured in what is now South Dakota in 1876. The
                                    two events were seperated by over 200 years and 2000 miles. They are
                                    not related in any way, except that American Indians were involved in
                                    both.
                                  • drew1dc
                                    Moving into a new life in Costa Rica, while fun and exciting, does take a lot of work. I ve created a blog for people like us who want to live here or already
                                    Message 17 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                                      Moving into a new life in Costa Rica, while fun and exciting, does
                                      take a lot of work. I've created a blog for people like us who want
                                      to live here or already live here. It is:
                                      www.Costaricarealestate.typepad.com. It's not really real estate
                                      focused, though. It's all about baby boomers moving to or living in
                                      Costa Rica. I hope everyone on CRL will check it out!

                                      Thanks!

                                      Andrew
                                    • Thor
                                      In my opinion the verb romanticize has connotations that are worthy of clarification when discussing the noble savage . Often the term is used to trivialize
                                      Message 18 of 27 , Sep 3, 2006
                                        In my opinion the verb "romanticize" has connotations that are worthy
                                        of clarification when discussing "the noble savage". Often the term is
                                        used to trivialize the underlying issues. Sharon's response
                                        illustrated an understanding that empathizes with the position of many
                                        Indigenous, Environmentalists and Humanists without agreeing. Opens
                                        the door to dialogue and a critical step in conflict resolution.

                                        Links were provided as to issues in Costa Rica where these themes play
                                        a prominent role. They also are relevant to Barry's work with the Bri
                                        Bri as he struggles to find a balance between the logical position
                                        that Sharon espouses and the emotional issues I presented. My own
                                        stance on the matter is that life is a "fine balance" indeed.

                                        Whether the "gran poobah" would have agreed or not I doubt that he
                                        would have used ridicule to express his view. Thanks Lesscranky for
                                        the compliment on erudition but I can't take credit for mostly cut and
                                        paste. Thanks to you I have learnt a few new words "jejune" and
                                        "pedantry" and will google the authors you mentioned. I hope that I am
                                        not the only one who got something from the exchange.

                                        Regards
                                        Thor
                                      • barrystevens2001
                                        ... How s this for relevance: $2M proposal to Foxwoods and other sources to fund a trust in CR whose purpose is to: (1) provide suspension bridges on
                                        Message 19 of 27 , Sep 4, 2006
                                          --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, Jon Linn <jonlinn@...> wrote:
                                          >
                                          > I guess this has
                                          > something to do with Costa Rica.
                                          > Happy Stumbling.

                                          How's this for relevance:

                                          $2M proposal to Foxwoods and other sources to
                                          "fund a trust in CR whose purpose is to:

                                          (1) provide suspension bridges on indigenous walking trails in
                                          CR, enabling:
                                          (a) children to routinely exit the jungle for CR schools,
                                          (b) more routine access for medical personnel, and
                                          (c) easier travel into and out of jungle areas.

                                          (2) Construct clean water systems in indigenous areas within CR
                                          as required;

                                          (3) Construct/repair local school facilities in indigenous
                                          communities within CR;

                                          (4) Provide funding for operation of school facilities within CR
                                          indigenous communities.

                                          (5) Acquisition of large areas of jungle within CR for purposes of
                                          conservation, watershed development, and development of
                                          sustainable employment - i.e. permanent earning power without
                                          cutting down jungle primary and secondary growth trees, and
                                          without destroying the rainforest. Such a pilot area already
                                          exists, and more are on the way.

                                          My personal view of "moving into this new life" has been
                                          "How can I help? What can I contribute to CR?"

                                          If you have more ideas, jump in. If we can make things better in
                                          some small way, let's do it.

                                          Thanks for the new title. I'll see if it can work into a business
                                          card.

                                          Barry Stevens
                                          Co-Founder, El Puente - The Bridge
                                          The Bridge provides educational assistance, food assistance, and
                                          microloans mainly to indigenous people in the southeastern part of
                                          Costa Rica. Our goal is to help people help themselves to self-
                                          sufficiency.
                                          See us at http://www.elpuente-thebridge.org
                                        • Fred Morgan
                                          The Gran Poobah and Thor are about as different as you can get in my not so humble opinion except in one thing, the willingness to debate ideas in a
                                          Message 20 of 27 , Sep 4, 2006
                                            The Gran Poobah and Thor are about as different as you can get in my not
                                            so humble opinion except in one thing, the willingness to debate ideas
                                            in a semi-civilized fashion. For that matter, I am pretty different as
                                            well. There are many topics that I differ - but for some reason I am the
                                            Minor Poobah.

                                            However, debate where you get nasty when you aren't agreed with is not
                                            allowed. Mainly because for us, it isn't enjoyable. The postings of Thor
                                            are always enjoyable, and thought provoking - but rarely provoking of
                                            anger or resentment.

                                            just my dos colones
                                          • barrystevens2001
                                            ... according to the historian, after the Narragansetts hired the British. The 72 interviews collected by the artist from the survivors of LBH, with people
                                            Message 21 of 27 , Sep 4, 2006
                                              --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, "H. X. OBoyle" <hxoboyle@...>
                                              wrote:
                                              >
                                              > --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, "barrystevens2001"
                                              > <barrystevens@> wrote:
                                              > .... including the
                                              > >Pequots were sold into
                                              > slavery in the late 1630's in New England...

                                              according to the historian, after the Narragansetts hired the British.

                                              The 72 interviews collected by the artist from the survivors of LBH,
                                              with people from different tribes formerly at war, all contain the
                                              same thread - "we must unite, to do this now, because of what the
                                              British did then."

                                              I know this isn't what's in the official US history books... so what's
                                              new?

                                              The stories of the LBH and the battles 200 years earlier are even
                                              known down here in CR indigenous communities...

                                              I have at least one of the interviews available if you'd care to read
                                              it. It's in denglish. The others are available in Rancho Sante Fe,
                                              California.

                                              B
                                            • Linda
                                              ... wrote: The Battle of Little Big Horn occured in what is now South Dakota in 1876. The two events were seperated by over 200 years and 2000 miles. They are
                                              Message 22 of 27 , Sep 4, 2006
                                                --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, "H. X. OBoyle" <hxoboyle@...>
                                                wrote:
                                                The Battle of Little Big Horn occured in what is now South Dakota in
                                                1876. The two events were seperated by over 200 years and 2000 miles.
                                                They are not related in any way, except that American Indians were
                                                involved in both.
                                                >

                                                Well, this is even less related to Costa Rica, but being a Montanan I
                                                felt I should set the matter a bit straighter. The Battle of Little
                                                Big Horn occurred in what is now (and was, even then) Montana. They
                                                were related because of the white man's continuing efforts to
                                                subjugate and/or eradicate the indigenous peoples of this continent.

                                                I have very much enjoyed the thoughtful discussion on the issue of
                                                this thread. It holds much relevance to not only those of us living
                                                or wishing to live in Costa Rica, but any who are interested in the
                                                future in any country on this planet. Thank you. Linda
                                              • momavluss
                                                Well said, Sharon. Adaptability is a requisite of survival, let s be glad some keep their eye on the ball. I think Barry might relect on this as well: we
                                                Message 23 of 27 , Sep 4, 2006
                                                  Well said, Sharon. Adaptability is a requisite of survival, let's be
                                                  glad some keep their eye on the ball.

                                                  I think Barry might relect on this as well: we should be glad, no,
                                                  ecstatic, that crowds of humans choose to pile themselves up in cities.
                                                  Morally we can't, and don't desire to, extinguish them, but if they all
                                                  chose to disperse we would have to live with thicker density all over
                                                  the map, so I for one am thankful to the city folk for concentrating
                                                  density where they are. I still breathe fine out here, and they have
                                                  their malls and theatres in there..

                                                  Idealizing the indigenous is "de riguer" in certain circles, but those
                                                  poor guys are left way low on the adaptability chain, and I feel for
                                                  them, they have no clue what they face, and only interference by
                                                  adaptors will emoliate their experience.
                                                • Fred Morgan
                                                  Adaptability is the key to survive.... Just to argue the other side for a bit. As a predator, being too good can spell your demise as well. I do believe this
                                                  Message 24 of 27 , Sep 5, 2006
                                                    Adaptability is the key to survive....

                                                    Just to argue the other side for a bit. As a predator, being too good
                                                    can spell your demise as well. I do believe this may be the point that
                                                    Barry is making. We as a specie are too good at what we do. We can
                                                    easily cause the extinction of other species THAT WE DEPEND ON.

                                                    It is the view of some that the human specie has evolved to such a
                                                    degree that it may cause its own extinction. (if you want to be
                                                    entertained and hear the argument, read "The Lost World" by Crighton)
                                                    There is such a thing as being too good.

                                                    Sharon is correct, we have improved our survival - this is a good thing
                                                    - but we have also managed to produce a huge amount of us. As we become
                                                    better and better at survival - at some point we have to realize that we
                                                    need to have the self-control not to produce too many of us since
                                                    nothing else can control us.

                                                    Except of course wars, famine, disease and droughts. Human caused
                                                    environmental disasters take their toll too.
                                                  • Linda
                                                    ... Exactly. If you are interested in a very well-researched and written treatise on this topic, I d recommend reading the book, Collapse by Jared Diamond.
                                                    Message 25 of 27 , Sep 5, 2006
                                                      --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, Fred Morgan <fmorgan@...> wrote:

                                                      > Except of course wars, famine, disease and droughts. Human caused
                                                      > environmental disasters take their toll too.
                                                      >
                                                      Exactly. If you are interested in a very well-researched and written
                                                      treatise on this topic, I'd recommend reading the book, "Collapse" by
                                                      Jared Diamond. This book looks at various societies throughout time
                                                      (up to and including present day) which have risen to a relatively
                                                      high degree of culture and organization and what has distinguished
                                                      those which have continued versus those which have collapsed. Linda
                                                    • barrystevens2001
                                                      ... what we do. We can ... Yes - we have gotten very, very good. What happening here allows direct comparison (non-scientific) of both indigenous and western
                                                      Message 26 of 27 , Sep 5, 2006
                                                        --- In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, Fred Morgan <fmorgan@...>
                                                        wrote:
                                                        >
                                                        > ... being too good
                                                        > can spell your demise as well. ... We as a specie are too good at
                                                        what we do. We can
                                                        > easily cause the extinction of other species THAT WE DEPEND ON.
                                                        >

                                                        Yes - we have gotten very, very good. What happening here allows
                                                        direct comparison (non-scientific) of both indigenous and "western
                                                        medical" approach to handling problems. As the Bribri curandero
                                                        himself says, "there's a time you can come see me for indigenous
                                                        approaches, and a time when you should get yourself to the Clinic."

                                                        Working with him and one of the people at the Hone Creek Clinic has
                                                        been very interesting. Both the MD and the Pharmacist at the Clinic
                                                        are now asking the folks who come there "what they're doing now",
                                                        and "how would you normally handle that?", and "why aren't you doing
                                                        that right now?" and they're listening and taking notes. And the
                                                        curandero is listening, and taking notes as well. There's lots of two-
                                                        way traffic over "the bridge".

                                                        We're still trying to find an American MD working in Peru who just
                                                        received a large award from the Ashoka Foundation for creating a
                                                        treatment protocol that includes both indigenous and western medical
                                                        techniques. Living in the jungle, he's been a little hard to find.
                                                        Sure like to get a copy of that protocol.

                                                        We have been looking for a retired MD who wants to get involved with
                                                        this type of a study. So far, there's been a great response from the
                                                        Clinic, and there are two EMTs on their way down here from Las Vegas
                                                        who are also community college instructors.

                                                        Barry Stevens
                                                        Co-Founder, El Puente - The Bridge
                                                        The Bridge provides educational assistance, food assistance, and
                                                        microloans mainly to indigenous people in the southeastern part of
                                                        Costa Rica. Our goal is to help people help themselves to self-
                                                        sufficiency.
                                                        See us at http://www.elpuente-thebridge.org
                                                      • alec kitson
                                                        The pointlessness of Les-wotsit s non-contribution in message 47123 re. calling Thor s long and thought provoking posting... jejune juh-JOON , adjective: 1.
                                                        Message 27 of 27 , Sep 5, 2006
                                                          The pointlessness of Les-wotsit's non-contribution in message 47123 re. calling Thor's long and thought provoking posting...

                                                          "jejune \juh-JOON\, adjective:
                                                          1. Lacking in nutritive value.
                                                          2. Displaying or suggesting a lack of maturity; childish.
                                                          3. Lacking interest or significance; dull; meager; dry".

                                                          ...highlights the only real beef I've ever had with CRL. If someone posts something amusing or intelligent here either the thing gets shut down by a sub-moderator or, more frequently, some insecure character does this kind of thing.

                                                          I would imagine musings on the Bri-Bri in CR and by extension indigenous people elsewhere in the country would rather relate to Costa Rica. No need to read it, of course, but certainly no need to try be 'cleverer than thou'. Especially when it doesn't work. Lubricity never was much of a substitute for brains.

                                                          Thor, old pal, you and I see the world mostly through different lenses, but I enjoy tracking your input. I dunno which of the shades of meaning of 'jejeune' were aimed at your posting - lacking in maturity, childish, meager, dry, dull or whatever, but I found it, and and find you, none of these.

                                                          Sharon, as ever, made the most sense to me in this discussion (she does on most everything, that's just the way it is) and it was interesting to see common ground explored as a few of you exchanged thoughts.

                                                          With the low-rent exception.

                                                          Cheers,

                                                          Alec




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