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vegans and vegetarians from last agd

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  • henry
    hippie forever made some comments that came out after agd.  I had to save this response to those statements for this agd. i said,   grains are generally
    Message 1 of 9 , Apr 25 5:58 AM
      hippie forever made some comments that came out after agd.  I had to save this response to those statements for this agd.

      i said,  "grains are generally annuals."

      she wrote <<Once again, hogwash. Most often the plant dies to yield the grain.>>

      grains are almost all annuals.  no hogwash.  not even sure where the ridiculous term hogwash comes from.  the plant is near death when it is time to disperse its seeds.  have you ever seen a corn field? the plants die at the end of their seed dispersal.    they harvest the corn and the plant dies shortly afterwards, not being killed by human causes.   wheat and rice are annuals as well.  they have to be replanted each year whether they are harvested or not. 


      <<"so they would die anyway eaten or not " Same thing for most domestically raise animals.>>

      big difference. between domestically raised animals and annual grains.  cows live to be 20 years.  they are slaughtered at about 12 to 18 months.  pigs live 15 - 20 years and are slaughtered at 6 months.   chickens live 10 years and are slaughtered at 6 weeks.   so it isn't the same for domestically raised animals as it is for grains. 

      <<What about killing and eating predator protein eating animals (ex: dorado fish) hence saving numerous of their victims. >
      "some sentient beings cannot survive without eating other beings. they are called carnivores. they actually serve a purpose."

      <<So are you saying all omnivores should give up meat?>>

      no I never said that.  all omnivores that live naturally, maintain a balance in the ecosystem as well.  their consumption of other animals keeps those populations down naturally as do carnivores as in the case of your example of dorado fish.  humans in modern society don't contribute to keeping a balance with their meat eating diet.   it is unsustainable. 

      I have no problem with indigenous people eating animals to survive.  such as the people of the amazon rainforest or the inuits in Alaska.  they have to eat that kind of protein to survive.  we now are able to stay alive and very healthy, not doing harm to other sentient beings in our modern world.

      I am not sure if you ever read my spiritual eating I have posted on crl.  part of it goes like this:
      first we hunted to get the protein we needed.  (peleolithic man) and that was ok.
      then we figured out how to raise animals to get our protein and that was ok.
      now we have figured out how to get our protein without killing or torturing animals and maintaining a sustainable planet. 
      this is the process of evolving.


      "we continue to destroy the environment by eating animals."

      <<The ecological aspect is a different topic>>.

      you are the one that brought up the ecological aspect when you included the statement about dorado fish eating other fish in the wild.  that was an ecological question.  that is why I added that to my post.

      for me it isn't a different topic anyway, nor is it for many vegetarians and vegans.   the topics are all connected.

      many of us believe we need to observe love and compassion for all sentient beings not just humans and pets.  for me and many others, that is evolving spiritually. 

      I know all about plants and their abilities.  I try to do as little harm to plants and trees as well, in my daily life.    I still have to survive and I prefer to do what is best for the collective consciousness, the planet and the well being of animals.   I have planted around 400 trees on my property and  a couple hundred plants so they and the wildlife can all benefit life on my property.  as I mentioned plants feed animals and my properties biodiversity has increased and it has become a calm oasis from what surrounds it.   

      I find to many people don't walk their talk they just talk it.  I prefer to be proactive and one way is posting on crl.  it is only to make people aware of their actions.  they can do with it what they want.  the more people that become aware the more change comes for the better.
      henry

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    • hippieforever3
      I was of the opinion we had taken this discussion off-line but obviously Henry had other plans. My original intent was to see if there were any fresh
      Message 2 of 9 , Apr 25 10:23 AM
        I was of the opinion we had taken this discussion off-line but obviously Henry had other plans.


        My original intent was to see if there were any fresh “Vegan” arguments because I had gotten a little tired of vegans constantly beating on me and others, about the “compassion” side of veganism.


        Years ago I had read “The Secret Life of Plants” and actually conducted a few experiments to see if I believed plants perceived their environment and had the ability to react to it. I came away thoroughly convinced they are sentient. I have subsequently, over the years seen things that reinforce this feeling.


        Given that belief, it is only a matter of degree on the “compassion” issue whether you kill plants or animals raised for consumption. The primary difference is when you kill a plant or rip out it's ovaries or uterus and steal all of its offspring you “don't hear it scream”.


        After many detailed exchanges with Henry, I concluded there are no new arguments for veganism and that vegans that use their lifestyle choices and “compassion” to try to put guilt trips on human omnivores are a bit hypocritical.


        I have conceded that reduced consumption of animal proteins does put less of a strain on the ecology of the planet and is something people might want to consider but I personally refuse to be “guilt-tripped” any longer for eating animal proteins.


        H4E




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      • sten12000
        Even though I m a long-time vegan and very happy about it, I wouldn t ever want to try to put a guilt trip on you. But, I must warn you, Hippieforever, if you
        Message 3 of 9 , Apr 25 11:43 AM
          Even though I'm a long-time vegan and very happy about it, I wouldn't ever want to try to put a guilt trip on you. But, I must warn you, Hippieforever, if you eat animals or even wear leather shoes and belts, when you die you will go straight to hell!!! Maybe this a new argument for you to think about?



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        • hippieforever3
          If I believed in the artificial concepts of H&H, I might be concerned. H4E *********************** if you eat animals or even wear leather shoes and belts,
          Message 4 of 9 , Apr 25 12:04 PM
            If I believed in the artificial concepts of H&H, I might be concerned.

            H4E


            ***********************

            if you eat animals or even wear leather shoes and belts, when you die you will go straight to hell!!! Maybe this a new argument for you to think about?





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          • sten12000
            Hahahaha. Of course, I hope you realize I was joking. I keep forgetting that a sense of humor doesn t often translate correctly in an email or post. I was
            Message 5 of 9 , Apr 25 12:14 PM
              Hahahaha. Of course, I hope you realize I was joking. I keep forgetting that a sense of humor doesn't often translate correctly in an email or post.


              I was wondering though, how does a one person actually put a guilt trip on another person? Is it possible to do that...without that other person's cooperation?



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            • hippieforever3
              I had some concerns and thoughts about compassionate treatment of animals as a result of numerous discussions with vegans. I had rejected their more extreme
              Message 6 of 9 , Apr 25 12:38 PM
                I had some concerns and thoughts about "compassionate" treatment of animals as a result of numerous discussions with vegans. I had rejected their more extreme views with absolute comfort but was interested in exploring it further as an ethical issue.

                I wondered if vegans had some perspective or argument I hadn't considered. Recent discussions have made me much more comfortable with my thoughts and positions.

                H4E


                ***********************

                I was wondering though, how does a one person actually put a guilt trip on another person? Is it possible to do that...without that other person's cooperation



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              • powernapper
                Hard for me to understand why anyone would try to change anyone else s mind about their passions. If you don t eat meat or animal products good for you. If you
                Message 7 of 9 , Apr 25 3:20 PM
                  Hard for me to understand why anyone would try to change anyone else's mind about their passions. If you don't eat meat or animal products good for you. If you do eat them, good for you, too.


                  All that ever happens is that arguing or discussing this type of thing simply makes both sides close their mind immediately and start defending their position. It serves no useful purpose whatsoever.


                  It is like the circular, useless discussion about whether you should spank children. It goes nowhere, changes no one's mind and is a waste of time and energy.


                  Have a nice day!
                  Robbie ( who mostly does not eat animals, but does on occasion, never argue, even with myself)



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                • henry
                  H4E
                  Message 8 of 9 , Apr 25 3:41 PM
                    H4E << I believed plants perceived their environment and had the ability to react to it. I came away thoroughly convinced they are sentient. I have subsequently, over the years seen things that reinforce this feeling.>>

                    I too have read and seen videos showing that plants and trees do feel things and react more then we think.  therefore I do less harm to plants being a vegetarian then an omnivore does.

                    <<After many detailed exchanges with Henry, I concluded there are no new arguments for veganism and that vegans that use their lifestyle choices and “compassion” to try to put guilt trips on human omnivores are a bit hypocritical.>>

                    I can't put a guilt trip on anyone, nor am I trying too.  they can only do it to  themselves.  I just share information and ideas and whoever reads it can do with it what they want. 
                     
                    In one email, I received, I was called a racist because I tend to favor animals over plants.  I had to chuckle and right back that racism only deals with people and not animals or plants.   that was the first time I have been called a racist.  lol
                     
                    I don't understand if someone feels so strong that plants are equal to animals and that they are all sentient beings.  then why would someone continue to eat animals since more plants are killed in the process of raising animals then it does to eat the plants directly.  me being a vegetarian does less harm to plants then someone that is an omnivore.  so the idea that vegetarians are hypocrites is ludicrous.
                    by not eating animals I do less harm to animals and plants on this planet.  we could grow about 50% less crops if we ate them directly instead of feeding them to farm animals.  I guess some people don't get the math and obviously don't care. 

                    if one doesn't care about what they are doing to the environment or don't really care about the animals they consume, so be it.  just admit it and move on.  most of my friends are not vegetarians.   they do as they please.   I prefer someone that doesn't try to portray themselves as something else.  if you eat meat, fine, just don't tell me you do it cause plants have feelings too.  it doesn't add up.
                    henry


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                  • sten12000
                    I suppose lots of people have egos that require that they be right about what they believe to be truth . That s what causes wars, whether it be about
                    Message 9 of 9 , Apr 25 5:15 PM
                      I suppose lots of people have egos that require that they be right about what they believe to be "truth". That's what causes wars, whether it be about religion, national pride, ad nauseum That's why I Iike a more libertarian approach to life. I'll leave you alone with your beliefs and lifestyle and you leave me alone to mine.
                      Seems like that would create a more comfortable world.



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