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Vegetarians and vegans

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  • hippieforever3
    I m beginning to run across more vegetarians and vegans with issues about exploiting animals. I even saw a vegan on TV who had issues with using honey in
    Message 1 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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      I'm beginning to run across more vegetarians and vegans with issues about exploiting animals. I even saw a vegan on TV who had issues with using honey in cooking because it exploits the bees. I considered this totally absurd.

      I feel I try hard to live in a world of ethical treatment of animals and within practical limits I choose food sources accordingly.

      My question to the hardcore vegetarians and vegans is, "What about plants?"

      Years ago there were a lot of articles and talk about plants being sensient. I performed a number of experiments and decided I believed that.

      If plants are sentient and taking honey from bees is exploitation, what is left to eat?

      I've made my own decisions and peace with them but just interested in what the hardcore "V"s got to say.

      What makes it right to kill and eat one source of sensient protein and not another. What about killing and eating predator protein eating animals (ex: dorado) hence saving numerous of their victims.

      BTW - This is a totally separate topic than raising animals for protein is a driver of carbon loading.the planet.

      H4E

    • magedelimage
      ... If plants are sentient and taking honey from bees is exploitation, what is left to eat? ... Well, at the metaphysical level (divine if you wish), the only
      Message 2 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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        ---H4E, <debra@...> wrote :
        If plants are sentient and taking honey from bees is exploitation, what is left to eat?
        ----
        Well, at the metaphysical level (divine if you wish), the only thing that humans do no have to kill to feed themself are fruits. We just pick them before they return to the earth anyway. We do not kill them, they are simply offerings from Mother Nature.
        All living organisms respect the Principle of Life... at the exception of humans... the only organism that required doctors and chemical drugs ! There must be a link don't you think ?
        When eating the fruits, we are either spitting the seeds or they will return intact to the ground in our bowels.
        Eating fruits means that we do not at all perturb the natural Cycles of Nature.
        When you harvest a carrot, you kill it, because it's purpose in its life is to flower the second year to produce seeds. So, you do not respect Nature. Same eating a salad, you kill it and it can no more reproduce itself.
        By the way, vegetables, most of them now eaten by humans, are not natural ! All manmade.
        Find me a wild plant of carotte nantaise, of iceberg lettuce, of cucumbers...




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      • mjsasdf
        Plants, bacteria, single cells, etc. may be conscious to some extent. However, the main difference between a person and a single cell in terms of consciousness
        Message 3 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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          Plants, bacteria, single cells, etc. may be conscious to some extent. However, the main difference between a person and a single cell in terms of consciousness may be the number of discernible conscious states that a small system can exist in. For example, suppose that a small system has just two conscious states. Such a system has very limited ability to become aware of the external world, to make decisions, etc. All phenomena could only be experienced and characterized by this system by being in one of two states. On the other hand, a person as well as most animals most likely have a relatively huge number of conscious states.

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        • henry
          hippieforever wrote: 
          Message 4 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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            hippieforever wrote: <<My question to the hardcore vegetarians and vegans is, "What about plants?"
            Years ago there were a lot of articles and talk about plants being sensient.  What makes it right to kill and eat one source of sensient protein and not another. >>

            I will answer the questions from the view of a vegetarian or a vegan.

            Plants are not considered sentient beings by any recognized group, religion or organization.  sensient beings are capable of being aware of sensations and of feeling pain and suffering, and of experiencing a state of well being.  all animals come under this definition, including bees.
            it is obvious, we can survive not eating animals but we can't survive without eating. 

            many plants produce with the intention of being eaten.  fruits are designed by a plant to be eaten by some sentient being.   its seeds are dispersed by the animal eating them.  grains are generally annuals.  they produce their seeds and die the same year including corn, wheat and rice.  so they would die anyway eaten or not in just one year.  we let them get to their maturity then we harvest their seeds.  we eat the flower of broccoli, cauliflower and of some other vegetables, not the entire plant.   this doesn't really matter to vegetarians or vegans since we know we have to eat but we don't want to do harm to sentient beings.

            <<What about killing and eating predator protein eating animals (ex: dorado fish) hence saving numerous of their victims. >>

            some sentient beings cannot survive without eating other beings.  they are called carnivores.  they actually serve a purpose.  they help maintain a balance in the ecosystem.  your example of dorado.  dorado eat other fish which helps keep those other populations of fish in balance with their environment.  we don't do that.  we continue to destroy the environment by eating animals.  70,000,000,000, 70 billion animals are raised, in concentration camps and killed every year because we like the way they taste.  billions of other animals are killed indirectly with our eating these 70 billion sentient beings as bi-catch.  we do not create a balance with our eating of sentient beings.  we are destroying mother earth with our eating habits.

            henry
            .

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          • sten12000
            I ve been a vegan for many years. Eating this way has served me well, healthwise and emotionally. I love animals, so somehow I feel a better emotionally. I
            Message 5 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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              I've been a vegan for many years. Eating this way has served me well, healthwise and emotionally.
              I love animals, so somehow I feel a better emotionally. I think the research done, at least on vegetarianism, is conclusive. And, almost everytime I've told someone that I'm a vegan or vegetarian, they respond something like, "You must be really healthy!"


              Good health in an individual responsibility, to my way of thinking, not to be given over to healthcare givers. It's just good common sense to take care of oneself and not feel the fear and depression of feeling bad and being at the mercy of the medical profession. Considerably cheaper as well.


              Having said all that, I don't thinks it's possible to be a REAL vegan. Just this afternoon in my garden, a bug flew into my mouth and down my throat. So, I guess I'm not a vegan anymore. Sigh! No telling how many insects I've eaten on my salads. The really small ones are difficult to avoid. Also, animal products are involved in the manufacture of all sorts of things, e.g. if you drive a car, those tires contain animals products.


              I think most of my friends who are vegan just do the best they can and don't get involved in the debates and politics about what is and what ain't right. Many of us have figured out that being at war with and frustrated about some political or social issue is not healthy. I do what I can do to uplift folks, and just enjoy a healthy and happy life..


              If it suits an individual, veganism is absolutely a great foundation on which to build your physical life. But, it' good to remember that health and wellbeing is at least 98 percent centered on the way you think! But, having a healthy body does help you think clearer and more intentionally....I think.


              ---In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, <debra@...> wrote :

              I'm beginning to run across more vegetarians and vegans with issues about exploiting animals. I even saw a vegan on TV who had issues with using honey in cooking because it exploits the bees. I considered this totally absurd.


              I feel I try hard to live in a world of ethical treatment of animals and within practical limits I choose food sources accordingly.


              My question to the hardcore vegetarians and vegans is, "What about plants?"


              Years ago there were a lot of articles and talk about plants being sensient. I performed a number of experiments and decided I believed that.


              If plants are sentient and taking honey from bees is exploitation, what is left to eat?


              I've made my own decisions and peace with them but just interested in what the hardcore "V"s got to say.


              What makes it right to kill and eat one source of sensient protein and not another. What about killing and eating predator protein eating animals (ex: dorado) hence saving numerous of their victims.


              BTW - This is a totally separate topic than raising animals for protein is a driver of carbon loading.the planet.


              H4E






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            • Robert Williams
              While I am neither vegetarian nor vegetarian, nor do I plan to be, I will say the commercialization of cattle feeding has gone a bit to the extreme. About 20
              Message 6 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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                While I am neither vegetarian nor vegetarian, nor do I plan to be, I will say the commercialization of cattle feeding has gone a bit to the extreme. About 20 years ago I drove through Greeley, Colorado, about 40 miles north of Denver. Half of Greeley was a feed lot, and the other half was a slaughter house. What an odor those two operations created. I honestly do not see how people lived there, and sometimes wonder what the rate of respiratory problems are in Greeley. 

                Robert

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              • hippieforever3
                While I agree with the idea of eating fruits and nuts as being non-destructive, I find some gross inaccuracies in this post. All living organisms respect the
                Message 7 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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                  While I agree with the idea of eating fruits and nuts as being non-destructive, I find some gross inaccuracies in this post.

                  "All living organisms respect the Principle of Life... at the exception of humans... the only organism that required doctors and chemical drugs !"


                  Carnivorous predators kill and eat other animals. Pets and other animals in captivity benefit from medical attention.

                  "By the way, vegetables, most of them now eaten by humans, are not natural ! All manmade."


                  Totally inaccurate, you can harvest all sorts of edibles walking in the wild.
                  But thanks for your thoughts anyway.


                  H4E

                  ---In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, <magedelimage@...> wrote :







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                • hippieforever3
                  Plants are not considered sentient beings by any recognized group, religion or organization. sensient beings are capable of being aware of sensations and of
                  Message 8 of 9 , Mar 28, 2014
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                    "Plants are not considered sentient beings by any recognized group, religion or organization. sensient beings are capable of being aware of sensations and of feeling pain and suffering, and of experiencing a state of well being."


                    This is pure hogwash, look up the research. Plants have been shown to exhibit distress when a nearby plant even of a different species is under stress. They share water when water is scarce. They communicate with insects. You're just saying this to justify your genocide of plants (just kidding).

                    "grains are generally annuals."


                    Once again, hogwash. Most often the plant dies to yield the grain.


                    "so they would die anyway eaten or not "


                    Same thing for most domestically raise animals.


                    <<What about killing and eating predator protein eating animals (ex: dorado fish) hence saving numerous of their victims. >>

                    "some sentient beings cannot survive without eating other beings. they are called carnivores. they actually serve a purpose."


                    So are you saying all omnivores should give up meat?


                    "we continue to destroy the environment by eating animals."


                    The ecological aspect is a different topic.


                    H4E





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                  • magedelimage
                    Wow ! What a way to distort my writing ! • I didn t write that there where no edibles in the wilderness. I wrote that most of the vegetables that we are
                    Message 9 of 9 , Mar 29, 2014
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                      Wow ! What a way to distort my writing ! • I didn't write that there where no edibles in the wilderness.
                      I wrote that most of the vegetables that we are accustomed to eat now can never been encountered in any forest or jungle on this planet. Find me in the wilderness an orange carrot, an english cucumber, some yellow tomatoes, some iceberg or roman salads, etc.


                      • How come my affirmation that the only living organism on Eartth that need doctors and chemical drugs are the humans is false? If it is inaccurate, please reveal me the Truth.


                      • The Universal Law of Nutrition is simple :
                      A food must be :
                      - pleasurable for the eyes (sight)
                      - pleasurable for the hand (touch)
                      - pleasurable for the nose (smell)
                      - pleasurable for the mouth (taste)
                      - must be in its natural state (exactly like Nature offers it)
                      SO, carnivores respect the Law of Nature in killing and eating flesh... their digestive track was created accordingly.
                      So, tell me : when you see a cow, a beef, a pig, are you salivating, are you attract to run after them, by their smell... attracted up to bite its jugular to drink their blood and ripe off the meat with your teeth ???


                      One not need a 400 pages book, with nice color recipes to learn and determine what is beneficial for a long lasting Health.
                      Simply imagine yourself crashing on a deserted tropical island.
                      What will you do to feed yourself without any tools ?...

                      ---In CostaRicaLiving@yahoogroups.com, <debra@...> wrote :

                      While I agree with the idea of eating fruits and nuts as being non-destructive, I find some gross inaccuracies in this post.
                      "All living organisms respect the Principle of Life... at the exception of humans... the only organism that required doctors and chemical drugs !"
                      Carnivorous predators kill and eat other animals. Pets and other animals in captivity benefit from medical attention.
                      "By the way, vegetables, most of them now eaten by humans, are not natural ! All manmade."
                      Totally inaccurate, you can harvest all sorts of edibles walking in the wild.





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