Loading ...
Sorry, an error occurred while loading the content.

It it comes down to war.

Expand Messages
  • Ben
    Hello Aviators, Things have been very quiet here for the last couple of weeks so I thought I d throw out a question and see if we can get some activity going:
    Message 1 of 7 , Sep 16, 2002
    • 0 Attachment
      Hello Aviators,

      Things have been very quiet here for the last couple of weeks so I
      thought I'd throw out a question and see if we can get some activity
      going:

      If it does come down to the US vs. Iraq it most probable that there
      will be air-to-air clashes. How well do you think the Iraqi Air Force
      will do againts US and possible British Fighter, Bomber and Attack
      aircraft???

      Happy Landings!
      Ben
    • Rob Hommel
      Doom for Iraq, just like their previous experience with a modern Air Force. They even lost to a Saudi Pilot in a F15 in the last war . How many aircraft
      Message 2 of 7 , Sep 16, 2002
      • 0 Attachment
        Doom for Iraq, just like their previous experience with a modern Air Force.
        They even lost to a Saudi Pilot in a F15 in the last war<grin>. How many
        aircraft did Iraq lose total in their last encounter with foreign troops, on
        the ground and in the air?

        I noticed that there was not a single example of an aircraft (air to air)
        lost to a F-16. The Iraqi's did lose a helicopter to an A-10 that was
        surprising. How many aircraft did they lose to British aircraft and where
        were the French? Did France surrender again?

        Keep 'em Flying
        Rob Hommel
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: "Ben" <Benscan@...>
        To: <CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 2:27 PM
        Subject: [CombatAircraft] It it comes down to war.


        > Hello Aviators,
        >
        > Things have been very quiet here for the last couple of weeks so I
        > thought I'd throw out a question and see if we can get some activity
        > going:
        >
        > If it does come down to the US vs. Iraq it most probable that there
        > will be air-to-air clashes. How well do you think the Iraqi Air Force
        > will do againts US and possible British Fighter, Bomber and Attack
        > aircraft???
        >
        > Happy Landings!
        > Ben
        >
        >
        >
        >
        > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
        > CombatAircraft-unsubscribe@egroups.com
        >
        >
        >
        > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
        >
      • Robert Conner
        ... activity ... there ... Force ... Hiya, Ben. In response to your question, I seriously doubt that the Iraqi Air Force will be a serious threat to US/Allied
        Message 3 of 7 , Sep 17, 2002
        • 0 Attachment
          > > Hello Aviators,
          > >
          > > Things have been very quiet here for the last couple of weeks so I
          > > thought I'd throw out a question and see if we can get some
          activity
          > > going:
          > >
          > > If it does come down to the US vs. Iraq it most probable that
          there
          > > will be air-to-air clashes. How well do you think the Iraqi Air
          Force
          > > will do againts US and possible British Fighter, Bomber and Attack
          > > aircraft???
          > >
          > > Happy Landings!
          > > Ben
          > >
          Hiya, Ben. In response to your question, I seriously doubt that the
          Iraqi Air Force will be a serious threat to US/Allied forces if it
          comes to war. Since the Gulf War, Iraq has only been allowed to fly
          in the central one-third of the country, the rest being a "No-Fly
          Zone", and that strictly limits the amount of training for their
          pilots. Not to mention that the skies over Iraq has been comstantly
          monitored. This assures that the Allies know how the Iraqi's are apt
          to fight.
          However, I think it safe to say that Saddumb won't be sending his
          fighters to hide in Iran again. :-)
          Iraq has good equipment in its air force, so it's going to boil down
          to which side has the best training, radar coverage, and best intel.
          (No, not the chip!)
          I think that the actual aircraft capabilites are just not THAT much
          of a factor. It's not a matter of who has the best planes, but of who
          has the best crews. It's the people that are going to make the
          difference, not the planes.
          But, I think that we would be foolish to under-estimate either the
          Iraqi's capabilites, or their will to fight. We have been surprised
          by them before.
          Just my humble opinion, of course.

          Robert
        • ference huynen
          Hi guys, The spares shortage is hitting the Iraqi AF pretty hard, very few aircraft are flyable today. They are focussing on trying to keep the MiG-25 and
          Message 4 of 7 , Sep 17, 2002
          • 0 Attachment
            Hi guys,

            The spares shortage is hitting the Iraqi AF pretty hard, very few aircraft
            are flyable today. They are focussing on trying to keep the MiG-25 and
            Mirage F1 airworthy, because those are their preffered aircraft (remember
            that the MiG-25 did better than the newer -29 the last time). When they try
            to do air-to-air they would use their aircraft in fasst slashing attacks.
            When that doesn't work they'll retreat to save their aircraft for another
            time. Much like they did when MiG-25s attacked F-15s and F-14s (in 1999???).
            But even more important will be their SAM network, this has recently become
            a separate service, with the highest priority for funds. They were the most
            succesful in the previous war. This service will see most of the action.

            Rob,

            Most if not all F-16s were solely used in the air-to-ground role, that's why
            they didn't score any A-A kills. As were the USN Hornets, though one flight
            did A-A on a strike sortie (and won BTW). Only the USMC and CAF Hornets flew
            CAP missions.
            The British almost scored a kill with a Tornado F3, but the iraqi flew away
            only to run into a trap set by f-15s. You already mentioned the Saudis. the
            french were very active in Desert Storm, but mostly on strike missions. Some
            Mirage 2000s flew CAPs but on the Saudi side of the border as opposed to US
            planes which flew their CAPs over Iraq. So no opportunities presented
            themselves to the French.

            Back to the original question: The F-15 was clearly the star of the A-A
            scene of Desert Storm. Mostly because it was assigned to the most likely
            sectors. F-14s did a lot of work too, but had only 1 kill to show for it.
            F-14s and F-15s represent the hi part of the US hi-lo mix. fewer of these
            planes are available today. That means more work will be allocated to the lo
            part, the -16 and -18. These should be OK against most iraqi planes but
            F-15s and F-14s would still be the preffered planes for the job. The US will
            also not be able to field as many a/c as it did a few years ago. Fortunately
            the iraqis have fewer a/c as well. all in all I think we eill see much less
            A-A this time.

            Best regards,

            Ference.


            >From: "Rob Hommel" <rhommel@...>
            >Reply-To: CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com
            >To: <CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com>
            >Subject: Re: [CombatAircraft] It it comes down to war.
            >Date: Mon, 16 Sep 2002 21:35:23 -0700
            >
            >Doom for Iraq, just like their previous experience with a modern Air Force.
            >They even lost to a Saudi Pilot in a F15 in the last war<grin>. How many
            >aircraft did Iraq lose total in their last encounter with foreign troops,
            >on
            >the ground and in the air?
            >
            >I noticed that there was not a single example of an aircraft (air to air)
            >lost to a F-16. The Iraqi's did lose a helicopter to an A-10 that was
            >surprising. How many aircraft did they lose to British aircraft and where
            >were the French? Did France surrender again?
            >
            >Keep 'em Flying
            >Rob Hommel
            >----- Original Message -----
            >From: "Ben" <Benscan@...>
            >To: <CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com>
            >Sent: Monday, September 16, 2002 2:27 PM
            >Subject: [CombatAircraft] It it comes down to war.
            >
            >
            > > Hello Aviators,
            > >
            > > Things have been very quiet here for the last couple of weeks so I
            > > thought I'd throw out a question and see if we can get some activity
            > > going:
            > >
            > > If it does come down to the US vs. Iraq it most probable that there
            > > will be air-to-air clashes. How well do you think the Iraqi Air Force
            > > will do againts US and possible British Fighter, Bomber and Attack
            > > aircraft???
            > >
            > > Happy Landings!
            > > Ben
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
            > > CombatAircraft-unsubscribe@egroups.com
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
            >http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
            > >
            >




            _________________________________________________________________
            MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos:
            http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
          • Rob Hommel
            Ference, Sorry to take a stab at the French it s just a common slam on the net. The British as I remember had an air to air kill with a helicopter I seem to
            Message 5 of 7 , Sep 18, 2002
            • 0 Attachment
              Ference,

              Sorry to take a stab at the French it's just a common slam on the net. The
              British as I remember had an air to air kill with a helicopter I seem to
              remember it being a Westland Lynx, a very fine aircraft. The French
              involvement in the air to air portion as I understand it was hampered by the
              fact that there was a problem with IFF and the French air radar being the
              same as what was in use by Iraq. There was concern that a colilition member
              would accidentally fire upon them. Recent politics have infected the French
              military and the record of their service in Bosnia was not of the finest
              traditions.

              I fear that spares shortages will affect the US military as well. Boeing
              McD. is not working much on the F15 spares as the US Congress has deemed
              that the military dollar will be better spent on the next generation of
              fighters. Munitions will be a problem I have been led to believe that the
              supply of iron bombs is short and if that is true than we can expect that
              other munitions are in short supply as well.

              The DarkStar program as I understand it has been canceled so we will not be
              seeing the debut this round.

              There were many aviation heroes and the F15 performed the job it was
              intended to perform. It was not alone in the air. The other air forces and
              their aircraft performed their jobs very well. The Iraqi's Air Force was
              ineffectual as it was used. The normal use of the Iraqi Air Force was for it
              to fly in and bomb either defenseless civilians or Iranian troops.

              Keep 'em Flying
              Rob Hommel
            • Benscan@aol.com
              Hey Rob, You just might be right. I don t think the Iraqi Air Force will stand much of a chance even if the US goes it alone this time. The British were
              Message 6 of 7 , Sep 20, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                Hey Rob,

                You just might be right. I don't think the Iraqi Air Force will stand much of a chance even if the US goes it alone this time.

                The British were saddled with the deadly and dirty task of attacking Iraqi airbases which is one of the reasons they suffered several losses all due to AAA and SAMs

                I think that the Coalition decided that since so many of the aircraft used by Iraq were French-built to limit the use of French airpower so as to avoid friendly fire problems. The French did their thing mostly with the Armor and their AMX-30 tank which scored some impressived kills again Iraqi armor but as far as I know French built Jaguars scored no air-to-air kills.

                Thanks for some very interesting observations. Let's hope this doesn't end up in war but if it does, may it be a short war!

                Happy Flying,
                Ben



                In a message dated 9/17/02 12:54:05 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rhommel@... writes:


                Doom for Iraq, just like their previous experience with a modern Air Force.
                They even  lost to a Saudi Pilot in a F15 in the last war<grin>. How many
                aircraft did Iraq lose total in their last encounter with foreign troops, on
                the ground and in the air?

                I noticed that there was not a single example of an aircraft (air to air)
                lost to a F-16. The Iraqi's did lose a helicopter to an A-10 that was
                surprising. How many aircraft did they lose to British aircraft and where
                were the French? Did France surrender again?

                Keep 'em Flying
                Rob Hommel


              • Benscan@aol.com
                Hey Robert, Sorry for being soooo slooow with my responses but I m so behind in answering my mail.. Anyway I do agee with you that even if the US goes it alone
                Message 7 of 7 , Sep 24, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Hey Robert,

                  Sorry for being soooo slooow with my responses but I'm so behind in answering my mail.. Anyway I do agee with you that even if the US goes it alone the Iraqi Air Force is going to get another bloody nose big-time again.

                  Iraqi's biggest sugges with with it's oldest and dumbest weapon the SCUD missile and I think that's what he'll try to use as his ace-up-his-sleeve again! BUT with better global positioning than 10 years ago our air forces should have a better time at locating and destroying any Scuds!

                  I also agree that much of how an air battle goes has to do with the training of the pilots groundcrew and aircrew. In that case the Iraqis are definitely in trouble. Unless their aircrews and support people have been able to get secret training of a very high quality somewhere but where would that be? No Western nation today would consider training Iraqis or any other pilots from that region.

                  Well hopefully it won't come to actual war. I hope and pray that there will be not war but if there is may it be over with quickly and decisively this time.

                  Happy Flying!
                  Ben


                  n a message dated 9/17/02 3:45:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, libertyusa@... writes:


                  Hiya, Ben. In response to your question, I seriously doubt that the
                  Iraqi Air Force will be a serious threat to US/Allied forces if it
                  comes to war. Since the Gulf War, Iraq has only been allowed to fly
                  in the central one-third of the country, the rest being a "No-Fly
                  Zone", and that strictly limits the amount of training for their
                  pilots. Not to mention that the skies over Iraq has been comstantly
                  monitored. This assures that the Allies know how the Iraqi's are apt
                  to fight.
                  However, I think it safe to say that Saddumb won't be sending his
                  fighters to hide in Iran again. :-)
                  Iraq has good equipment in its air force, so it's going to boil down
                  to which side has the best training, radar coverage, and best intel.
                  (No, not the chip!)
                  I think that the actual aircraft capabilites are just not THAT much
                  of a factor. It's not a matter of who has the best planes, but of who
                  has the best crews.  It's the people that are going to make the
                  difference, not the planes.
                  But, I think that we would be foolish to under-estimate either the
                  Iraqi's capabilites, or their will to fight. We have been surprised
                  by them before.
                  Just my humble opinion, of course.

                  Robert




                Your message has been successfully submitted and would be delivered to recipients shortly.