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Link / RAAF, F-35 & F-22 Confusion & Second Guessing.

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  • MaX G Cunningham
    http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-vicemarshal-aba ndon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php
    Message 1 of 6 , Oct 7, 2006
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      http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-vicemarshal-abandon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php

       

      In "Rapped in the Raptor: why Australia must have the best," Australian newspaper The Age reports that:

      "[Recently] Retired RAAF air vice-marshal Peter Criss has put aside usual conventions to openly question the wisdom of Canberra spending about $16 billion for the F-35 Lightning, also known as the Joint Strike Fighter. The Government committed an initial $300 million to become an early partner in the JSF program, with a final decision to be made by 2008. But Mr Criss says the RAAF should, in fact, consider buying the F-22 Raptor..."

      F-35 JSF
      F-35 JSF
      (click to view full)

      Criss' disquiet is the first significant breaking of ranks by top military brass over this issue, and DID hopes to cover the controversy in more depth at a future date. In the meantime, however, we have a detailed analysis that argues for Criss' preference within a larger strategic framework [PDF format, 6.7 MB]. It connects Australia's strategic imperatives to regional developments and threats, before looking at aircraft capabilities and costs; all to make the case that RAAF F-35As are a mistake, and the F-22 a better option given Australia's needs. See also Australia's Joint Standing Parliamentary Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade's "Inquiry into Australian Defence Force Regional Air Superiority" for shorter and less in-depth submissions from many other sources, as well as several from Australia's Department of Defence (which supports the F-35A).

      DID has updated our F-22 Raptor and F-35 Lightning II/ JSF focus articles accordingly.

    • Parazo Jerico
      Say, Max, do you know of what happened to the BD-10J kit jet? It seems to be a cost effective aircraft if converted to milspecs. I mean, in 89 it costs
      Message 2 of 6 , Oct 8, 2006
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        Say, Max, do you know of what happened to the BD-10J
        kit jet? It seems to be a cost effective aircraft if
        converted to milspecs. I mean, in '89 it costs
        $160,000. Maybe a solution for megabuck planes?

        -Jerico

        --- MaX G Cunningham <max_g_cunningham@...>
        wrote:

        >
        >
        http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-vicemarshal-aba\
        > ndon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php
        >
        <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-vicemarshal-ab\
        > andon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php>
        >
        >
        >
        > In "Rapped in the Raptor: why Australia must have
        > the best
        >
        <http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/rapped-in-the-raptor-why-australi\
        >
        a-must-have-the-best/2006/10/01/1159641209404.html?page=fullpage#content\
        > Swap1> ," Australian newspaper The Age reports that:
        >
        > "[Recently] Retired RAAF air vice-marshal Peter
        > Criss has put aside
        > usual conventions to openly question the wisdom of
        > Canberra spending
        > about $16 billion for the F-35 Lightning, also known
        > as the Joint Strike
        > Fighter. The Government committed an initial $300
        > million to become an
        > early partner in the JSF program, with a final
        > decision to be made by
        > 2008. But Mr Criss says the RAAF should, in fact,
        > consider buying the
        > F-22 Raptor..."
        > [F-35 JSF]
        >
        <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35_JSF_lg.jpg>
        > F-35
        > JSF
        > (click to view full)
        > Criss' disquiet is the first significant breaking of
        > ranks by top
        > military brass over this issue, and DID hopes to
        > cover the controversy
        > in more depth at a future date. In the meantime,
        > however, we have a
        > detailed analysis that argues for Criss' preference
        >
        <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs/sub20.pdf>
        >
        > within a larger strategic framework [PDF format, 6.7
        > MB]. It connects
        > Australia's strategic imperatives to regional
        > developments and threats,
        > before looking at aircraft capabilities and costs;
        > all to make the case
        > that RAAF F-35As are a mistake, and the F-22 a
        > better option given
        > Australia's needs. See also Australia's Joint
        > Standing Parliamentary
        > Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade's
        > "Inquiry into
        > Australian Defence Force Regional Air Superiority
        >
        <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs.htm>
        > " for
        > shorter and less in-depth submissions from many
        > other sources, as well
        > as several from Australia's Department of Defence
        > (which supports the
        > F-35A).
        >
        > DID has updated our F-22 Raptor
        >
        <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/09/f22-raptor-fy-2006-procurem\
        > ent-events-updated/index.php> and F-35 Lightning II
        >
        <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/f35-joint-strike-fighter-sd\
        > d-contracts-events-fy-2006/index.php> / JSF focus
        > articles accordingly.
        >
        >


        __________________________________________________
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      • MaX G Cunningham
        I m not sure, I ll see what I can dig up. If you have any links send them. __________________________ There was an F-20 spinoff look alike being developed at
        Message 3 of 6 , Oct 8, 2006
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          I'm not sure, I'll see what I can dig up.

          If you have any links send them.

          __________________________

          There was an F-20 spinoff look alike being developed at one stage.

          The Tiwanese (Chinese depending on who you talk to)
          Tried to buy F-16s recently but that deal has collaphsed.

          The S. Koreans at one time were looking at the F-20,
          and there was a briberly scandal that evolved. Northrop must have
          felt compelled to desperate measures, (no moral justification mind
          you) As General Dynamics was being really agressive (tottaly
          ruthless) at the time in trying to stop the F-20.

          The F-20 in my estimation was so good, that GDC was compelled to,
          and willing to stop a virtually nothing to prevent anybody from
          getting the F-20 into active service, in mortal fear that word would
          get around about just how good the jet really was.

          The best example was GDC giving the USN aggressor F-16s at cost, or
          less, just to shut Northrop out. GDC could ill afford, to risk,
          the Navy "TopGun" types who mixed with pilots from all over the
          world, at various times, talking as they invariably would, at the
          officiers club, after hours, with rave reviews, and thus word
          would have leaked out that way about the F-20.
          This would have constituted a major problem for GDC.

          It's interesting that to this day, very little information exists
          publicy about just how good the F-20 really was overall, but every
          once in a while I find something that suggests it was increadibly
          good, and the basic (original) specs support that assertion.

          What insights and the suspisions I have, have been gleened by an
          agrigate of practically everything that exists about the AC, that
          I've found, and in exchange with a select few insiders, who still
          don't really admit very much, wich in itself I feel is quite
          telling, and suggestive that it really was potentially a deadly
          threat to the entire F-16 program.

          More recently the Chinese have started thier own indigenous
          LWF. I've run across a lot of critisism of it, but mainly from blogs
          with a "big "fighter-bomber"" (wich the F-22 is) bias.

          Yes. Parazo, there maybe a Santa Clause, and for certain, despite
          all the pure bullshit to the contrary, the F-22 is a FIGHTER-BOMBER.

          MC


          --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Parazo Jerico
          <jericoparazo@...> wrote:
          >
          >
          > Say, Max, do you know of what happened to the BD-10J
          > kit jet? It seems to be a cost effective aircraft if
          > converted to milspecs. I mean, in '89 it costs
          > $160,000. Maybe a solution for megabuck planes?
          >
          > -Jerico
          >
          > --- MaX G Cunningham <max_g_cunningham@...>
          > wrote:
          >
          > >
          > >
          > http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-
          vicemarshal-aba\
          > > ndon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php
          > >
          > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-
          vicemarshal-ab\
          > > andon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php>
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > In "Rapped in the Raptor: why Australia must have
          > > the best
          > >
          > <http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/rapped-in-the-raptor-why-
          australi\
          > >
          > a-must-have-the-best/2006/10/01/1159641209404.html?
          page=fullpage#content\
          > > Swap1> ," Australian newspaper The Age reports that:
          > >
          > > "[Recently] Retired RAAF air vice-marshal Peter
          > > Criss has put aside
          > > usual conventions to openly question the wisdom of
          > > Canberra spending
          > > about $16 billion for the F-35 Lightning, also known
          > > as the Joint Strike
          > > Fighter. The Government committed an initial $300
          > > million to become an
          > > early partner in the JSF program, with a final
          > > decision to be made by
          > > 2008. But Mr Criss says the RAAF should, in fact,
          > > consider buying the
          > > F-22 Raptor..."
          > > [F-35 JSF]
          > >
          > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35_JSF_lg.jpg>
          > > F-35
          > > JSF
          > > (click to view full)
          > > Criss' disquiet is the first significant breaking of
          > > ranks by top
          > > military brass over this issue, and DID hopes to
          > > cover the controversy
          > > in more depth at a future date. In the meantime,
          > > however, we have a
          > > detailed analysis that argues for Criss' preference
          > >
          > <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs/sub20.pdf>
          > >
          > > within a larger strategic framework [PDF format, 6.7
          > > MB]. It connects
          > > Australia's strategic imperatives to regional
          > > developments and threats,
          > > before looking at aircraft capabilities and costs;
          > > all to make the case
          > > that RAAF F-35As are a mistake, and the F-22 a
          > > better option given
          > > Australia's needs. See also Australia's Joint
          > > Standing Parliamentary
          > > Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade's
          > > "Inquiry into
          > > Australian Defence Force Regional Air Superiority
          > >
          > <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs.htm>
          > > " for
          > > shorter and less in-depth submissions from many
          > > other sources, as well
          > > as several from Australia's Department of Defence
          > > (which supports the
          > > F-35A).
          > >
          > > DID has updated our F-22 Raptor
          > >
          > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/09/f22-raptor-fy-2006-
          procurem\
          > > ent-events-updated/index.php> and F-35 Lightning II
          > >
          > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/f35-joint-strike-
          fighter-sd\
          > > d-contracts-events-fy-2006/index.php> / JSF focus
          > > articles accordingly.
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________
          > Do You Yahoo!?
          > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
          > http://mail.yahoo.com
          >
        • MaX G Cunningham
          There also was a study at one time, by the original USAF LWF Mafia (Boyd, Riccioni, Myers, Sprey) for an adapation of a Boeing 747 as an airborne aircraft
          Message 4 of 6 , Oct 8, 2006
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            There also was a study at one time, by the original USAF
            LWF Mafia (Boyd, Riccioni, Myers, Sprey) for an adapation of
            a Boeing 747 as an airborne aircraft carrier what would carry
            and also subsiquently recover and air to air refeul upto 7 internally
            stowed, and then deployed near the forward edge of battle, micro-
            fighter jets, in the 5000-7000 lbs class. 2/3s or less the size of
            the BAC hawk.

            These things would have operated like a swarm, and would have been
            very tough to spot visually, and even before stealth, would have
            had a reletively minisule radar porfile.

            Needless to say,, they would have been optimized for an outragiously
            good power to weight ratio, turned with the agility of a house fly,
            and been deadly in close in AtA combat.

            MaXimillian.

            --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Parazo Jerico
            <jericoparazo@...> wrote:
            >
            >
            > Say, Max, do you know of what happened to the BD-10J
            > kit jet? It seems to be a cost effective aircraft if
            > converted to milspecs. I mean, in '89 it costs
            > $160,000. Maybe a solution for megabuck planes?
            >
            > -Jerico
            >
            > --- MaX G Cunningham <max_g_cunningham@...>
            > wrote:
            >
            > >
            > >
            > http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-
            vicemarshal-aba\
            > > ndon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php
            > >
            > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-
            vicemarshal-ab\
            > > andon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php>
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > > In "Rapped in the Raptor: why Australia must have
            > > the best
            > >
            > <http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/rapped-in-the-raptor-why-
            australi\
            > >
            > a-must-have-the-best/2006/10/01/1159641209404.html?
            page=fullpage#content\
            > > Swap1> ," Australian newspaper The Age reports that:
            > >
            > > "[Recently] Retired RAAF air vice-marshal Peter
            > > Criss has put aside
            > > usual conventions to openly question the wisdom of
            > > Canberra spending
            > > about $16 billion for the F-35 Lightning, also known
            > > as the Joint Strike
            > > Fighter. The Government committed an initial $300
            > > million to become an
            > > early partner in the JSF program, with a final
            > > decision to be made by
            > > 2008. But Mr Criss says the RAAF should, in fact,
            > > consider buying the
            > > F-22 Raptor..."
            > > [F-35 JSF]
            > >
            > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35_JSF_lg.jpg>
            > > F-35
            > > JSF
            > > (click to view full)
            > > Criss' disquiet is the first significant breaking of
            > > ranks by top
            > > military brass over this issue, and DID hopes to
            > > cover the controversy
            > > in more depth at a future date. In the meantime,
            > > however, we have a
            > > detailed analysis that argues for Criss' preference
            > >
            > <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs/sub20.pdf>
            > >
            > > within a larger strategic framework [PDF format, 6.7
            > > MB]. It connects
            > > Australia's strategic imperatives to regional
            > > developments and threats,
            > > before looking at aircraft capabilities and costs;
            > > all to make the case
            > > that RAAF F-35As are a mistake, and the F-22 a
            > > better option given
            > > Australia's needs. See also Australia's Joint
            > > Standing Parliamentary
            > > Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and Trade's
            > > "Inquiry into
            > > Australian Defence Force Regional Air Superiority
            > >
            > <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs.htm>
            > > " for
            > > shorter and less in-depth submissions from many
            > > other sources, as well
            > > as several from Australia's Department of Defence
            > > (which supports the
            > > F-35A).
            > >
            > > DID has updated our F-22 Raptor
            > >
            > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/09/f22-raptor-fy-2006-
            procurem\
            > > ent-events-updated/index.php> and F-35 Lightning II
            > >
            > <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/f35-joint-strike-
            fighter-sd\
            > > d-contracts-events-fy-2006/index.php> / JSF focus
            > > articles accordingly.
            > >
            > >
            >
            >
            > __________________________________________________
            > Do You Yahoo!?
            > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
            > http://mail.yahoo.com
            >
          • Parazo Jerico
            Speaking of light fighters, anyone whose seen the movie-spoof, Hot Shots 1, may remember the aircraft used there...those are Gnats that, in Indian Airforce
            Message 5 of 6 , Oct 9, 2006
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              Speaking of light fighters, anyone whose seen the
              movie-spoof, Hot Shots 1, may remember the aircraft
              used there...those are Gnats that, in Indian Airforce
              hands, defeated Pakistani F-86's. Also, the first jet
              to supercruise was the BAC Lightning, which could
              aout-accelerate an Eagle. Wikipedia even says that
              only it was the only one to simulate an intercept on a
              Concorde (please confirm).
              --- MaX G Cunningham <max_g_cunningham@...>
              wrote:

              > There also was a study at one time, by the original
              > USAF
              > LWF Mafia (Boyd, Riccioni, Myers, Sprey) for an
              > adapation of
              > a Boeing 747 as an airborne aircraft carrier what
              > would carry
              > and also subsiquently recover and air to air refeul
              > upto 7 internally
              > stowed, and then deployed near the forward edge of
              > battle, micro-
              > fighter jets, in the 5000-7000 lbs class. 2/3s or
              > less the size of
              > the BAC hawk.
              >
              > These things would have operated like a swarm, and
              > would have been
              > very tough to spot visually, and even before
              > stealth, would have
              > had a reletively minisule radar porfile.
              >
              > Needless to say,, they would have been optimized for
              > an outragiously
              > good power to weight ratio, turned with the agility
              > of a house fly,
              > and been deadly in close in AtA combat.
              >
              > MaXimillian.
              >
              > --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Parazo Jerico
              >
              > <jericoparazo@...> wrote:
              > >
              > >
              > > Say, Max, do you know of what happened to the
              > BD-10J
              > > kit jet? It seems to be a cost effective aircraft
              > if
              > > converted to milspecs. I mean, in '89 it costs
              > > $160,000. Maybe a solution for megabuck planes?
              > >
              > > -Jerico
              > >
              > > --- MaX G Cunningham <max_g_cunningham@...>
              > > wrote:
              > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              >
              http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-
              > vicemarshal-aba\
              > > > ndon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/retired-raaf-
              > vicemarshal-ab\
              > > > andon-f35-buy-f22s/index.php>
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > In "Rapped in the Raptor: why Australia must
              > have
              > > > the best
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://www.theage.com.au/news/opinion/rapped-in-the-raptor-why-
              > australi\
              > > >
              > >
              > a-must-have-the-best/2006/10/01/1159641209404.html?
              > page=fullpage#content\
              > > > Swap1> ," Australian newspaper The Age reports
              > that:
              > > >
              > > > "[Recently] Retired RAAF air vice-marshal Peter
              > > > Criss has put aside
              > > > usual conventions to openly question the wisdom
              > of
              > > > Canberra spending
              > > > about $16 billion for the F-35 Lightning, also
              > known
              > > > as the Joint Strike
              > > > Fighter. The Government committed an initial
              > $300
              > > > million to become an
              > > > early partner in the JSF program, with a final
              > > > decision to be made by
              > > > 2008. But Mr Criss says the RAAF should, in
              > fact,
              > > > consider buying the
              > > > F-22 Raptor..."
              > > > [F-35 JSF]
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/images/AIR_F-35_JSF_lg.jpg>
              > > > F-35
              > > > JSF
              > > > (click to view full)
              > > > Criss' disquiet is the first significant
              > breaking of
              > > > ranks by top
              > > > military brass over this issue, and DID hopes to
              > > > cover the controversy
              > > > in more depth at a future date. In the meantime,
              > > > however, we have a
              > > > detailed analysis that argues for Criss'
              > preference
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs/sub20.pdf>
              > > >
              > > > within a larger strategic framework [PDF format,
              > 6.7
              > > > MB]. It connects
              > > > Australia's strategic imperatives to regional
              > > > developments and threats,
              > > > before looking at aircraft capabilities and
              > costs;
              > > > all to make the case
              > > > that RAAF F-35As are a mistake, and the F-22 a
              > > > better option given
              > > > Australia's needs. See also Australia's Joint
              > > > Standing Parliamentary
              > > > Committee on Foreign Affairs, Defence and
              > Trade's
              > > > "Inquiry into
              > > > Australian Defence Force Regional Air
              > Superiority
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://www.aph.gov.au/house/committee/jfadt/adfair/subs.htm>
              > > > " for
              > > > shorter and less in-depth submissions from many
              > > > other sources, as well
              > > > as several from Australia's Department of
              > Defence
              > > > (which supports the
              > > > F-35A).
              > > >
              > > > DID has updated our F-22 Raptor
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/09/f22-raptor-fy-2006-
              > procurem\
              > > > ent-events-updated/index.php> and F-35
              > Lightning II
              > > >
              > >
              >
              <http://www.defenseindustrydaily.com/2006/10/f35-joint-strike-
              > fighter-sd\
              > > > d-contracts-events-fy-2006/index.php> / JSF
              > focus
              > > > articles accordingly.
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > > __________________________________________________
              > > Do You Yahoo!?
              > > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam
              > protection around
              > > http://mail.yahoo.com
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >


              __________________________________________________
              Do You Yahoo!?
              Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
              http://mail.yahoo.com
            • MaX G Cunningham
              ... I Believe in India there called Ajeet. Subsonic trainer, and very light strike. The same AC appeared in a Peirce Bronsan James Bond film. Hot shot s is
              Message 6 of 6 , Oct 10, 2006
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                --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Parazo Jerico
                <jericoparazo@...> wrote:
                >
                >
                > Hot Shots 1, may remember the aircraft
                > used there...those are Gnats that, in Indian Airforce
                > hands, defeated Pakistani F-86's.

                I Believe in India there called Ajeet.

                Subsonic trainer, and very light strike.

                The same AC appeared in a Peirce Bronsan
                James Bond film.

                Hot shot's is pretty lame, it has a few moments,
                at various stages, but degenerates into pure sillyness.

                I can't believe that was Loyyd Bridges very last
                effort, and prefer to remember him in other works.

                Jeff Bridges is brilliant, and one of my alltime
                favourites.

                The original "police Squad" short lived TV series,
                and the first full length feature by the same name
                were brilliant, by the same pepole.

                And of course the original "Airplane" litteraly
                changed western venacular.
                MC
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