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$ 258 Million

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  • max_g_cunningham@yahoo.com
    In a story covering the costs of the war in Iraq, and where funds maybe taken from to support that endevour. 258 Million US dollars per-plane, was quoted
    Message 1 of 17 , May 1, 2004
      In a story covering the costs of the war in Iraq, and where funds
      maybe taken from to support that endevour.
      258 Million US dollars per-plane, was quoted this morning as
      the cost of the F22, (I presume this included intital
      development,) by CNN.

      That figure is close to the cost of an entire squadron (10-12
      airframes) of F16Cs.
      MC
    • the4thhorseman_death
      active AF has about 20-14 f6c s in a squadron
      Message 2 of 17 , May 2, 2004
        active AF has about 20-14 f6c's in a squadron



        --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, max_g_cunningham@y... wrote:
        > In a story covering the costs of the war in Iraq, and where funds
        > maybe taken from to support that endevour.
        > 258 Million US dollars per-plane, was quoted this morning as
        > the cost of the F22, (I presume this included intital
        > development,) by CNN.
        >
        > That figure is close to the cost of an entire squadron (10-12
        > airframes) of F16Cs.
        > MC
      • Half Assed Astronaut
        Is that the same number in ANG ? MC ... __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
        Message 3 of 17 , May 2, 2004
          Is that the same number in ANG ?
          MC

          --- the4thhorseman_death <the4thhorseman_death@...>
          wrote:
          > active AF has about 20-14 f6c's in a squadron
          >
          >
          >
          > --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com,
          > max_g_cunningham@y... wrote:
          > > In a story covering the costs of the war in Iraq, and
          > where funds
          > > maybe taken from to support that endevour.
          > > 258 Million US dollars per-plane, was quoted this
          > morning as
          > > the cost of the F22, (I presume this included intital
          > > development,) by CNN.
          > >
          > > That figure is close to the cost of an entire squadron
          > (10-12
          > > airframes) of F16Cs.
          > > MC
          >
          >





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        • Benscan@aol.com
          In a message dated 5/2/04 2:18:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ... It s basically the same. Today there s very little difference in organization and equipment
          Message 4 of 17 , May 3, 2004
            In a message dated 5/2/04 2:18:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, max_g_cunningham@... writes:


            Is that the same number in ANG ?
            MC


            It's basically the same. Today there's very little difference in organization and equipment beteeen the ANG and the Regular AF. The air group is no more; used only for ground organizations. The squadron and the wing are the main operational organizations of the USAF today.

            Good Flying!
            Ben

          • Half Assed Astronaut
            I know that several years ago, the USAF tried to raise front line squadron numbers of airframes to 20. I don t believe they were entirely successfull. MC ...
            Message 5 of 17 , May 5, 2004
              I know that several years ago, the USAF tried to raise
              front line squadron numbers of airframes to 20.
              I don't believe they were entirely successfull.
              MC
              --- Benscan@... wrote:
              > In a message dated 5/2/04 2:18:47 PM Eastern Daylight
              > Time,
              > max_g_cunningham@... writes:
              >
              >
              > > Is that the same number in ANG ?
              > > MC
              > >
              >
              > It's basically the same. Today there's very little
              > difference in organization
              > and equipment beteeen the ANG and the Regular AF. The air
              > group is no more;
              > used only for ground organizations. The squadron and the
              > wing are the main
              > operational organizations of the USAF today.
              >
              > Good Flying!
              > Ben
              >





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            • Rob Hommel
              The vulnerability of computers to virus seems to be growing at an alarming rate. See the following stories. UK coast Guard disarmed by computer virus.
              Message 6 of 17 , May 5, 2004
                The vulnerability of computers to virus seems to be growing at an alarming
                rate. See the following stories.

                UK coast Guard disarmed by computer virus.
                http://news.independent.co.uk/uk/this_britain/story.jsp?story=518242

                while not a military computer certainly a vital one. Again computer virus
                shuts down hospital computers. Should computer owners be able to sue virus
                writers for damages?

                http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article222158.ece

                Noticed one other article about prisoner abuses today that I thought was
                interesting. NSFW

                http://www.avn.com/index.php?Primary_Navigation=Articles&Action=View_Article&Content_ID=82983

                Here is a story about the Norwegians getting ready to shoot down private
                aircraft. That will cut down on those pesky tourists.

                http://pub.tv2.no/nettavisen/english/article221492.ece

                What ever happened to the story about the war ship that was left after a
                failure in WinNt caused the warship to be adrift for several hours, is this
                a case of urban myth?

                Keep 'em Flying
                Rob Hommel
              • the4thhorseman_death
                i cant tell ya what the AF has as a whole for their fighter squadrons, but what i have seen is 24 f-16c/d s to a squadron. including the can bird. as for
                Message 7 of 17 , May 6, 2004
                  i cant tell ya what the AF has as a whole for their fighter
                  squadrons, but what i have seen is 24 f-16c/d's to a squadron.
                  including the can bird. as for hangar queen, may god have mercy on
                  your soul if its yours.

                  as for the 22 being equal.... yeah not even close. even mentioning
                  the d models in comparison is absurd. stealth technology, interal
                  arms, supersonic speeds w/o afterburner, i think the 22 beats it
                  hands down. as for the price tag, well i can do w/o that, but
                  America has always been the most (of the time) technoligically
                  advanced military, and they have never shied away from spening hard
                  earned money on it either. but as for paying taxes, as a
                  soldier/sailor/airman/marine, wouldnt it make sence that i shouldnt
                  pay taxes, i mean after all, thats like paying my own salary...

                  keep your feet and knees together
                  -D
                • Half Assed Astronaut
                  For clarification, We are not comparing ONE F16, or ONE F15 to ONE Raptor. We ARE comparing ONE Raptor with it s 268 million USD price tag, per single
                  Message 8 of 17 , May 7, 2004
                    For clarification,
                    We are not comparing ONE F16, or ONE F15 to ONE Raptor.

                    We ARE comparing ONE Raptor with it's 268 million USD price
                    tag, per single airframe, VS 268 million US dollars
                    WORTH of F16Cs, F15s, and while we're here, why not also
                    Eurofighters, and SU37s.

                    That is the question, ONE Raptor, against the equivalent
                    dollar value of the other types, in terms of value.
                    Think about it.
                    MC

                    horseman_death <the4thhorseman_death@...> wrote:
                    >
                    > as for the 22 being equal.... yeah not even close. even
                    > mentioning
                    > the d models in comparison is absurd. stealth
                    > technology, interal
                    > arms, supersonic speeds w/o afterburner, i think the 22
                    > beats it
                    > hands down. as for the price tag, well i can do w/o
                    > that, but
                    > America has always been the most (of the time)
                    > technoligically
                    > advanced military, and they have never shied away from
                    > spening hard
                    > earned money on it either. but as for paying taxes, as a
                    >
                    > soldier/sailor/airman/marine, wouldnt it make sence that
                    > i shouldnt
                    > pay taxes, i mean after all, thats like paying my own
                    > salary...
                    >
                    > keep your feet and knees together
                    > -D





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                  • the4thhorseman_death
                    ok compare this, the age of f-15 s or 16 s to the age of the 22.... newer technology costs more. this same debate happend when we went to the 15 s or the 16 s
                    Message 9 of 17 , May 9, 2004
                      ok compare this, the age of f-15's or 16's to the age of the 22....

                      newer technology costs more. this same debate happend when we went
                      to the 15's or the 16's from the 101's the f-4's etc...

                      keep your feet and knees together
                      -D


                      --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Half Assed Astronaut
                      <max_g_cunningham@y...> wrote:
                      > For clarification,
                      > We are not comparing ONE F16, or ONE F15 to ONE Raptor.
                      >
                      > We ARE comparing ONE Raptor with it's 268 million USD price
                      > tag, per single airframe, VS 268 million US dollars
                      > WORTH of F16Cs, F15s, and while we're here, why not also
                      > Eurofighters, and SU37s.
                      >
                      > That is the question, ONE Raptor, against the equivalent
                      > dollar value of the other types, in terms of value.
                      > Think about it.
                      > MC
                      >
                      > horseman_death <the4thhorseman_death@y...> wrote:
                      > >
                      > > as for the 22 being equal.... yeah not even close. even
                      > > mentioning
                      > > the d models in comparison is absurd. stealth
                      > > technology, interal
                      > > arms, supersonic speeds w/o afterburner, i think the 22
                      > > beats it
                      > > hands down. as for the price tag, well i can do w/o
                      > > that, but
                      > > America has always been the most (of the time)
                      > > technoligically
                      > > advanced military, and they have never shied away from
                      > > spening hard
                      > > earned money on it either. but as for paying taxes, as a
                      > >
                      > > soldier/sailor/airman/marine, wouldnt it make sence that
                      > > i shouldnt
                      > > pay taxes, i mean after all, thats like paying my own
                      > > salary...
                      > >
                      > > keep your feet and knees together
                      > > -D
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > __________________________________
                      > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                      > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
                    • max_g_cunningham@yahoo.com
                      I m not having much luck, you seem to be missing the point, I m kida busy right now, maybe someone else will respond, and explain this for you. MC
                      Message 10 of 17 , May 9, 2004
                        I'm not having much luck, you seem to be missing the point, I'm kida
                        busy right now, maybe someone else will respond, and explain this
                        for you.
                        MC



                        --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, "the4thhorseman_death"
                        <the4thhorseman_death@y...> wrote:
                        > ok compare this, the age of f-15's or 16's to the age of the 22....
                        >
                        > newer technology costs more. this same debate happend when we went
                        > to the 15's or the 16's from the 101's the f-4's etc...
                        >
                        > keep your feet and knees together
                        > -D
                        >
                        >
                        > --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Half Assed Astronaut
                        > <max_g_cunningham@y...> wrote:
                        > > For clarification,
                        > > We are not comparing ONE F16, or ONE F15 to ONE Raptor.
                        > >
                        > > We ARE comparing ONE Raptor with it's 268 million USD price
                        > > tag, per single airframe, VS 268 million US dollars
                        > > WORTH of F16Cs, F15s, and while we're here, why not also
                        > > Eurofighters, and SU37s.
                        > >
                        > > That is the question, ONE Raptor, against the equivalent
                        > > dollar value of the other types, in terms of value.
                        > > Think about it.
                        > > MC
                        > >
                        > > horseman_death <the4thhorseman_death@y...> wrote:
                        > > >
                        > > > as for the 22 being equal.... yeah not even close. even
                        > > > mentioning
                        > > > the d models in comparison is absurd. stealth
                        > > > technology, interal
                        > > > arms, supersonic speeds w/o afterburner, i think the 22
                        > > > beats it
                        > > > hands down. as for the price tag, well i can do w/o
                        > > > that, but
                        > > > America has always been the most (of the time)
                        > > > technoligically
                        > > > advanced military, and they have never shied away from
                        > > > spening hard
                        > > > earned money on it either. but as for paying taxes, as a
                        > > >
                        > > > soldier/sailor/airman/marine, wouldnt it make sence that
                        > > > i shouldnt
                        > > > pay taxes, i mean after all, thats like paying my own
                        > > > salary...
                        > > >
                        > > > keep your feet and knees together
                        > > > -D
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > __________________________________
                        > > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                        > > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
                      • max_g_cunningham@yahoo.com
                        Basicaly, and I don t have time to cover it all again, and it has been covered in this forum. The military industrial complex, with specific regard to
                        Message 11 of 17 , May 13, 2004
                          Basicaly, and I don't have time to cover it all again, and it has
                          been covered in this forum.

                          The military industrial complex, with specific regard to advanced
                          manned combat aircraft, including the B2 Stealth, (Northrop/Boeing
                          and F22 Raptor from Lockheed, have "priced themselves out of
                          bussiness."

                          The B2 was originaly supposed to replace the remaining ancient B52s,
                          and B1Bs, but at $ 500 million + we ended up with a meager handfull.
                          And the B52 soldgers on,,,as does the B1B, wich had critical
                          performance shortfalls, and it's own costing issues from the get go.

                          The F22 program is precisely on course towards the same fate.

                          It was the legendary C.L (Clarence Kelly) Johnson of the Lockheed
                          skunkworks who noted, that with the cost excallations associated
                          with the development and production of each successive generation of
                          front line military combat aircraft, "one day, thier will only be
                          enough money in the entire US defense budget, for one single
                          airframe."

                          Others including Lee Begin of Northrop, and John Boyd, saw this
                          coming as well, did thier best working to try and forstall the trend.

                          MC


                          --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, "the4thhorseman_death"
                          <the4thhorseman_death@y...> wrote:
                          > ok compare this, the age of f-15's or 16's to the age of the 22....
                          >
                          > newer technology costs more. this same debate happend when we went
                          > to the 15's or the 16's from the 101's the f-4's etc...
                          >
                          > keep your feet and knees together
                          > -D
                          >
                          >
                          > --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Half Assed Astronaut
                          > <max_g_cunningham@y...> wrote:
                          > > For clarification,
                          > > We are not comparing ONE F16, or ONE F15 to ONE Raptor.
                          > >
                          > > We ARE comparing ONE Raptor with it's 268 million USD price
                          > > tag, per single airframe, VS 268 million US dollars
                          > > WORTH of F16Cs, F15s, and while we're here, why not also
                          > > Eurofighters, and SU37s.
                          > >
                          > > That is the question, ONE Raptor, against the equivalent
                          > > dollar value of the other types, in terms of value.
                          > > Think about it.
                          > > MC
                          > >
                          > > horseman_death <the4thhorseman_death@y...> wrote:
                          > > >
                          > > > as for the 22 being equal.... yeah not even close. even
                          > > > mentioning
                          > > > the d models in comparison is absurd. stealth
                          > > > technology, interal
                          > > > arms, supersonic speeds w/o afterburner, i think the 22
                          > > > beats it
                          > > > hands down. as for the price tag, well i can do w/o
                          > > > that, but
                          > > > America has always been the most (of the time)
                          > > > technoligically
                          > > > advanced military, and they have never shied away from
                          > > > spening hard
                          > > > earned money on it either. but as for paying taxes, as a
                          > > >
                          > > > soldier/sailor/airman/marine, wouldnt it make sence that
                          > > > i shouldnt
                          > > > pay taxes, i mean after all, thats like paying my own
                          > > > salary...
                          > > >
                          > > > keep your feet and knees together
                          > > > -D
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > >
                          > > __________________________________
                          > > Do you Yahoo!?
                          > > Win a $20,000 Career Makeover at Yahoo! HotJobs
                          > > http://hotjobs.sweepstakes.yahoo.com/careermakeover
                        • Brooks Rowlett
                          ... And that is why two defense contractors are among the biggest companies in the US? ... Ehhh... no. The B-2 (and note that correct designations include
                          Message 12 of 17 , May 13, 2004
                            On May 13, 2004, at 7:47 AM, max_g_cunningham@... wrote:

                            > The military industrial complex, with specific regard to advanced
                            > manned combat aircraft, including the B2 Stealth, (Northrop/Boeing
                            > and F22 Raptor from Lockheed, have "priced themselves out of
                            > bussiness."

                            And that is why two defense contractors are among the biggest companies
                            in the US?

                            > The B2 was originaly supposed to replace the remaining ancient B52s,
                            > and B1Bs, but at $ 500 million + we ended up with a meager handfull.
                            > And the B52 soldgers on,,,as does the B1B, wich had critical
                            > performance shortfalls, and it's own costing issues from the get go.

                            Ehhh... no. The B-2 (and note that correct designations include
                            dashes, e.g. B-52 and B-1) was never supposed to fully replace the
                            B-52.

                            > The F22 program is precisely on course towards the same fate.

                            The fewer they buy, the more the plane costs per unit. It applies to
                            every plane out there. Congress can't seem to understand this.


                            > It was the legendary C.L (Clarence Kelly) Johnson of the Lockheed
                            > skunkworks who noted, that with the cost excallations associated
                            > with the development and production of each successive generation of
                            > front line military combat aircraft, "one day, thier will only be
                            > enough money in the entire US defense budget, for one single
                            > airframe."

                            No, it wasn't. It was Norman Augustine of Martin Marrieta, who
                            formulated Augustine's Laws, of which this is one of the best known.

                            As I have noted before, a large portion of the cost of any new system
                            is software. This whole issue is way too complex to be dismissed with
                            comments 'blaming' any industry, or the government. Ships cost a lot
                            more than their older predecessors too, but like they aircraft, they
                            are far more capable - IN THE WAYS THAT MATTER - than their
                            predecessors.

                            - Brooks A. Rowlett
                          • Half Assed Astronaut
                            ... __________ Gee, judgeing by the tone of this response I must have struck a nerve, or a sore spot with you, what gives ? Since you instigated this, Boeing
                            Message 13 of 17 , May 13, 2004
                              --- Brooks Rowlett <brooksar@...> wrote:

                              > And that is why two defense contractors are among the
                              > biggest companies
                              > in the US?
                              __________
                              Gee, judgeing by the tone of this response I must have
                              struck a nerve, or a sore spot with you,

                              what gives ?

                              Since you instigated this,

                              Boeing and Lockheed are big allright, particularly as a
                              result of mergers and aquistions.

                              A search on Forbes has only Northrop/Grumman, wich you
                              failed to mention as being amoung the top 20 in North
                              America.

                              Please explain your apparent sensitivity with regard to
                              this topic.


                              > No, it wasn't. It was Norman Augustine of Martin
                              > Marrieta, who
                              > formulated Augustine's Laws, of which this is one of the
                              > best known.
                              _________
                              Actually I own a videotape copy of the the CBS 60 minutes
                              interveiw between Morley ShHaffer and Johnson, taped in
                              the early 80s, that's were I heard him quote it.

                              The rest is a statement of opinion my friend.
                              MC

                              > are far more capable - IN THE WAYS THAT MATTER - than
                              > their
                              > predecessors.
                              >
                              > - Brooks A. Rowlett
                              >
                              >





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                            • the4thhorseman_death
                              thank you Brooks, at least someone else sees the entire picture ... (Northrop/Boeing ... companies ... B52s, ... handfull. ... go. ... to ... of ... be ...
                              Message 14 of 17 , May 14, 2004
                                thank you Brooks, at least someone else sees the entire picture


                                --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Brooks Rowlett <brooksar@i...>
                                wrote:
                                >
                                > On May 13, 2004, at 7:47 AM, max_g_cunningham@y... wrote:
                                >
                                > > The military industrial complex, with specific regard to advanced
                                > > manned combat aircraft, including the B2 Stealth,
                                (Northrop/Boeing
                                > > and F22 Raptor from Lockheed, have "priced themselves out of
                                > > bussiness."
                                >
                                > And that is why two defense contractors are among the biggest
                                companies
                                > in the US?
                                >
                                > > The B2 was originaly supposed to replace the remaining ancient
                                B52s,
                                > > and B1Bs, but at $ 500 million + we ended up with a meager
                                handfull.
                                > > And the B52 soldgers on,,,as does the B1B, wich had critical
                                > > performance shortfalls, and it's own costing issues from the get
                                go.
                                >
                                > Ehhh... no. The B-2 (and note that correct designations include
                                > dashes, e.g. B-52 and B-1) was never supposed to fully replace the
                                > B-52.
                                >
                                > > The F22 program is precisely on course towards the same fate.
                                >
                                > The fewer they buy, the more the plane costs per unit. It applies
                                to
                                > every plane out there. Congress can't seem to understand this.
                                >
                                >
                                > > It was the legendary C.L (Clarence Kelly) Johnson of the Lockheed
                                > > skunkworks who noted, that with the cost excallations associated
                                > > with the development and production of each successive generation
                                of
                                > > front line military combat aircraft, "one day, thier will only
                                be
                                > > enough money in the entire US defense budget, for one single
                                > > airframe."
                                >
                                > No, it wasn't. It was Norman Augustine of Martin Marrieta, who
                                > formulated Augustine's Laws, of which this is one of the best known.
                                >
                                > As I have noted before, a large portion of the cost of any new
                                system
                                > is software. This whole issue is way too complex to be dismissed
                                with
                                > comments 'blaming' any industry, or the government. Ships cost a
                                lot
                                > more than their older predecessors too, but like they aircraft,
                                they
                                > are far more capable - IN THE WAYS THAT MATTER - than their
                                > predecessors.
                                >
                                > - Brooks A. Rowlett
                              • Half Assed Astronaut
                                Mc Donnel-Douglas is no more, having lost long lost thier civilian airliner market, and stuggling with the low-production rates on the F15, F18 and Harrier
                                Message 15 of 17 , May 15, 2004
                                  Mc Donnel-Douglas is no more, having lost long lost thier
                                  civilian airliner market, and stuggling with the
                                  low-production rates on the F15, F18 and Harrier programs,
                                  they couldn't make it on thier own anymore, and were
                                  forced to merge with Boieng.

                                  Similarly Grumman, bit the dust, and had to merge with
                                  Northrop, and General Dynamics sold out thier F16
                                  interests to Lockheed.

                                  Where we had about six seperate military airframe
                                  manufactures 10 of so years ago, now we're down to only 2.
                                  There's no money to be made any more in the manufacture of
                                  these prohibitably expensive programs, and the ensuant low
                                  quanity of production.

                                  Indeed the JSF (perhaps the last generation of manned
                                  fighter planes as we know them) is probably going to be the
                                  mainstay, and the F22, will never see introduction in
                                  siginifcant numbers.

                                  Look, I realise the F22 is still a very impressive item,
                                  however, superciuse, stelth, etc, etc, I just don't
                                  believe it's worth $ 260 million US dollars per copy.

                                  That's two hundered and sixty million dollars each, for
                                  that kind of money, we could aquire a lot more upgraded
                                  F15s, 16s, or even Eurofighters, or God forbid
                                  SU-somethings.

                                  Don't let the "wiz-bang" factor, nationalistic pride,
                                  political simpathies, or vested financial interests in the
                                  stock market cloud your objectivity.

                                  I also don't believe the Russians that the F22 was very
                                  specificaly designed to counter are the threat anymore,
                                  much less the second rate powers they in turn supply, in
                                  desperation.


                                  Finnaly, I also don't believe OSAMA et Al, who are now the
                                  "boogie men," will be criusing up in the statosphere,
                                  in SU27s, taking hostages up there, and slitting the
                                  throats of our F15 & F16 pilots.

                                  Here's a thought, and it's just a thought,
                                  A solid gold, platinum plated fighter plane is maybe not
                                  what the US military needs right now. Particularly with
                                  the current administration borrowing Trillions of dollars,
                                  driving our currency, and standard of living down,
                                  running up the debt, to finance the Iraq campain, with no
                                  end or resolution in sight.
                                  MC


                                  --- the4thhorseman_death <the4thhorseman_death@...>
                                  wrote:
                                  > thank you Brooks, at least someone else sees the entire
                                  > picture
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Brooks Rowlett
                                  > <brooksar@i...>
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > On May 13, 2004, at 7:47 AM, max_g_cunningham@y...
                                  > wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > The military industrial complex, with specific
                                  > regard to advanced
                                  > > > manned combat aircraft, including the B2 Stealth,
                                  > (Northrop/Boeing
                                  > > > and F22 Raptor from Lockheed, have "priced
                                  > themselves out of
                                  > > > bussiness."
                                  > >
                                  > > And that is why two defense contractors are among the
                                  > biggest
                                  > companies
                                  > > in the US?
                                  > >
                                  > > > The B2 was originaly supposed to replace the
                                  > remaining ancient
                                  > B52s,
                                  > > > and B1Bs, but at $ 500 million + we ended up with a
                                  > meager
                                  > handfull.
                                  > > > And the B52 soldgers on,,,as does the B1B, wich had
                                  > critical
                                  > > > performance shortfalls, and it's own costing issues
                                  > from the get
                                  > go.
                                  > >
                                  > > Ehhh... no. The B-2 (and note that correct
                                  > designations include
                                  > > dashes, e.g. B-52 and B-1) was never supposed to fully
                                  > replace the
                                  > > B-52.
                                  > >
                                  > > > The F22 program is precisely on course towards the
                                  > same fate.
                                  > >
                                  > > The fewer they buy, the more the plane costs per unit.
                                  > It applies
                                  > to
                                  > > every plane out there. Congress can't seem to
                                  > understand this.
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > > It was the legendary C.L (Clarence Kelly) Johnson of
                                  > the Lockheed
                                  > > > skunkworks who noted, that with the cost
                                  > excallations associated
                                  > > > with the development and production of each
                                  > successive generation
                                  > of
                                  > > > front line military combat aircraft, "one day,
                                  > thier will only
                                  > be
                                  > > > enough money in the entire US defense budget, for
                                  > one single
                                  > > > airframe."
                                  > >
                                  > > No, it wasn't. It was Norman Augustine of Martin
                                  > Marrieta, who
                                  > > formulated Augustine's Laws, of which this is one of
                                  > the best known.
                                  > >
                                  > > As I have noted before, a large portion of the cost of
                                  > any new
                                  > system
                                  > > is software. This whole issue is way too complex to be
                                  > dismissed
                                  > with
                                  > > comments 'blaming' any industry, or the government.
                                  > Ships cost a
                                  > lot
                                  > > more than their older predecessors too, but like they
                                  > aircraft,
                                  > they
                                  > > are far more capable - IN THE WAYS THAT MATTER - than
                                  > their
                                  > > predecessors.
                                  > >
                                  > > - Brooks A. Rowlett
                                  >
                                  >





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                                • Justin
                                  When WW1 happened, no one thought there would be WWII. There will be new superpower counties sooner or later, and the US must prepare for that. Even if the US
                                  Message 16 of 17 , May 15, 2004
                                    When WW1 happened, no one thought there would be WWII. There will be
                                    new superpower counties sooner or later, and the US must prepare for
                                    that. Even if the US can produce small numbers of these high end
                                    Stealth fighters and Bombers backed up by a larger number of more
                                    tradtitional aircraft. The offence threat by the B-1 B-2, F117, JSF,
                                    and F-22 when massed together in one theater of action for offensive
                                    operations. The F-15Es B-52's, and F-16's can hold the fort around
                                    the rest of the world and augument the super planes in combat.

                                    I guess my point is that the US might not be able to buy enough of
                                    these planes to be stationed at every base the US has around the
                                    world, but when you put a few hundred of them together for an
                                    offensive action they will be VERY hard to beat. That is the kind of
                                    threat that will keep many countries from becoming hostile in the
                                    first place. It has to have some impact on your actions if you KNOW
                                    you can't win, ever.

                                    Think about flying a MiG-29 wondering if a stealth F-22 is tracking
                                    you, because you have no way of knowing.

                                    I agree about the JSF, it and the new F-18 will be the mainstay of
                                    the US fighter forces. Does anyone know how long they plan to keep
                                    open the F-15E line?

                                    Justin

                                    --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Half Assed Astronaut
                                    <max_g_cunningham@y...> wrote:
                                    > Mc Donnel-Douglas is no more, having lost long lost thier
                                    > civilian airliner market, and stuggling with the
                                    > low-production rates on the F15, F18 and Harrier programs,
                                    > they couldn't make it on thier own anymore, and were
                                    > forced to merge with Boieng.
                                    >
                                    > Similarly Grumman, bit the dust, and had to merge with
                                    > Northrop, and General Dynamics sold out thier F16
                                    > interests to Lockheed.
                                    >
                                    > Where we had about six seperate military airframe
                                    > manufactures 10 of so years ago, now we're down to only 2.
                                    > There's no money to be made any more in the manufacture of
                                    > these prohibitably expensive programs, and the ensuant low
                                    > quanity of production.
                                    >
                                    > Indeed the JSF (perhaps the last generation of manned
                                    > fighter planes as we know them) is probably going to be the
                                    > mainstay, and the F22, will never see introduction in
                                    > siginifcant numbers.
                                    >
                                    > Look, I realise the F22 is still a very impressive item,
                                    > however, superciuse, stelth, etc, etc, I just don't
                                    > believe it's worth $ 260 million US dollars per copy.
                                    >
                                    > That's two hundered and sixty million dollars each, for
                                    > that kind of money, we could aquire a lot more upgraded
                                    > F15s, 16s, or even Eurofighters, or God forbid
                                    > SU-somethings.
                                    >
                                    > Don't let the "wiz-bang" factor, nationalistic pride,
                                    > political simpathies, or vested financial interests in the
                                    > stock market cloud your objectivity.
                                    >
                                    > I also don't believe the Russians that the F22 was very
                                    > specificaly designed to counter are the threat anymore,
                                    > much less the second rate powers they in turn supply, in
                                    > desperation.
                                    >
                                    >
                                    > Finnaly, I also don't believe OSAMA et Al, who are now the
                                    > "boogie men," will be criusing up in the statosphere,
                                    > in SU27s, taking hostages up there, and slitting the
                                    > throats of our F15 & F16 pilots.
                                    >
                                    > Here's a thought, and it's just a thought,
                                    > A solid gold, platinum plated fighter plane is maybe not
                                    > what the US military needs right now. Particularly with
                                    > the current administration borrowing Trillions of dollars,
                                    > driving our currency, and standard of living down,
                                    > running up the debt, to finance the Iraq campain, with no
                                    > end or resolution in sight.
                                    > MC
                                    >
                                    >
                                  • max_g_cunningham@yahoo.com
                                    ... companies ... ________ Boeing, Lockheed and Northrop are currently as big as they are as a result of forced mergers. Mc Donnel, and Grumman particuarly
                                    Message 17 of 17 , May 18, 2004
                                      --- In CombatAircraft@yahoogroups.com, Brooks Rowlett <brooksar@i...>
                                      wrote:
                                      >
                                      > And that is why two defense contractors are among the biggest
                                      companies
                                      > in the US?
                                      ________
                                      Boeing, Lockheed and Northrop are currently as big as they are as a
                                      result of forced mergers.
                                      Mc Donnel, and Grumman particuarly were in very bad shape, and were
                                      forced to merge, as a matter of survival.
                                      General Dynamics sold off it's F16 interests to lockheed to
                                      concentrate on it's core bussiness, all the while stuggeling to
                                      enhance diminishing profits.

                                      With the failure and abandonment of it's "Sonic Cruiser,"
                                      and if the 7E7 dosn't catch on big, in the civilian airline market,
                                      Boeing as we now know it, too will likely be on the "rocks" in
                                      short order.
                                      MC
                                      > are far more capable - IN THE WAYS THAT MATTER - than their
                                      > predecessors.
                                      >
                                      > - Brooks A. Rowlett
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