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Re: Newbie Sword & Flame question...

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  • Jeffrey Baumal
    I have been gaming colonial games since the early 1980 s with THE SWORD AND THE FLAME rules sets in both 15mm and 25/28mm with out changing the game scale,
    Message 1 of 10 , May 1, 2009
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      I have been gaming colonial games since the early 1980's with THE SWORD AND THE FLAME rules sets in both 15mm and 25/28mm with out changing the game scale, movement or firing distances. This is my personal favorite and the set the majority of us play at conventions as well at and my club's gatherings. They are a great skirmish set and can be used for large battles as well. There are about a dozen variations for all sorts of colonial conflicts around the world. The same author also makes 2 other great sets of colonial rules, BY BATTALION FIRE, and 800 FIGHTING ENGLISHMEN, both also highly recommended.

      I have been collecting 25/28mm Sudan figures for several years (lost count). I fell in love with the Castaway Arts range from Australia one year at Historicon which started off this huge project. I have added many Old Glory figures to my collection and more recently Perry figs from Age of Glory. I use all the different mfgrs. figures on the table at the same time, but use them in separate units for the most part. I have also added figures from all the other 28mm mfgrs that make Sudan figs, including Britania, Dixon, Copplestone Brit Naval Brigade and a few Somali warriors, Cannon Fodder captured Egyptian gun crew, some Foundry and Connisseur natives and a couple of Bicorne and Redoubt figs. All these can be used on the table at the same time as they have a similar build and size. We even have several unit of Ral Partha smaller 25mm figs. Some have been mounted on slightly taller bases, others are left as is. In my opinion once the battle starts the small differences in size become meaningless and only the action counts in the heat of battle! It's all up to you and your preferences. For instance there is a great and complete range of Sudan figs by Redoubt, but to me they are too large to fit in. I do use a few of their figs though, but not many. There is a size comparison chart on the yahoo colonial wars group site.

      Have a great time organizing and painting your new collection.

      Here's the links for the majority of the figs I use and the rules sets. I can't remember all the websites and mfgrs, sorry.

      sergeants3.com
      link
      castawayarts.com.au
      ageofglory.com (for Perry's)
      oldgloryminiatures.com
      link
      bicorne.net/catalog
      dixonminiatures.co.uk
      copplestonecastings.co.uk
      redoubtenterprises.com

      Cheers,

      JB


      --- In ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com, "amilne70" <kenshin68@...> wrote:
      >
      > Brand new both to the forum and to gaming Colonials. I have not settled on miniatures or rules yet but I am planning on 28mm minis and am interested in hearing more about Sword & Flame rules.
      >
      > Can anyone tell me what size units/ bases are in the game (platoon, company, battalian, etc...) and what a game turn flow is like.
      >
      > I'm primarily interested in starting with the Sudan campaigns. I welcome any figure recommendation in 25/28mm.
      >
      > Cheers.
      >
      > Danny
      >
    • bnmshort
      Feeling a need to chime in. I must respectfully disagree with Jeff s assessment of Redoubt figs. Many of my British units are Redoubt, while many of the
      Message 2 of 10 , May 4, 2009
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        Feeling a need to chime in. I must respectfully disagree with Jeff's assessment of Redoubt figs. Many of my British units are Redoubt, while many of the Dervish tend to be Old Glory, despite the occasional odd pose. I view the larger figures of Redoubt as a 'representation' that Tommy should always stand taller than his enemy. For my Old Glory British units, I tend to base them on washers instead of flats to give them a touch more height.

        As to rules, my personal favorite is the Sword and the Flame. Hands down. Works for all size of game from 1-14 players from the lowliest garage to the finest sort of convention.

        An aside- I've missed gaming a lot having been diagnosed with 'workaholism' for the past several years, but have started brushing my way through the unpainted lead box again to work the rust off. I look forward to tapping into the all-knowing hive again as I begin kicking back into my favorite colonial theater, the 'Soudan'.

        Good luck to you Danny.

        -Bill Short

        --- In ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey Baumal" <jbaumal@...> wrote:
        >
        > I have been gaming colonial games since the early 1980's with THE SWORD AND THE FLAME rules sets in both 15mm and 25/28mm with out changing the game scale, movement or firing distances. This is my personal favorite and the set the majority of us play at conventions as well at and my club's gatherings. They are a great skirmish set and can be used for large battles as well. There are about a dozen variations for all sorts of colonial conflicts around the world. The same author also makes 2 other great sets of colonial rules, BY BATTALION FIRE, and 800 FIGHTING ENGLISHMEN, both also highly recommended.
        >
        > I have been collecting 25/28mm Sudan figures for several years (lost count). I fell in love with the Castaway Arts range from Australia one year at Historicon which started off this huge project. I have added many Old Glory figures to my collection and more recently Perry figs from Age of Glory. I use all the different mfgrs. figures on the table at the same time, but use them in separate units for the most part. I have also added figures from all the other 28mm mfgrs that make Sudan figs, including Britania, Dixon, Copplestone Brit Naval Brigade and a few Somali warriors, Cannon Fodder captured Egyptian gun crew, some Foundry and Connisseur natives and a couple of Bicorne and Redoubt figs. All these can be used on the table at the same time as they have a similar build and size. We even have several unit of Ral Partha smaller 25mm figs. Some have been mounted on slightly taller bases, others are left as is. In my opinion once the battle starts the small differences in size become meaningless and only the action counts in the heat of battle! It's all up to you and your preferences. For instance there is a great and complete range of Sudan figs by Redoubt, but to me they are too large to fit in. I do use a few of their figs though, but not many. There is a size comparison chart on the yahoo colonial wars group site.
        >
        > Have a great time organizing and painting your new collection.
        >
        > Here's the links for the majority of the figs I use and the rules sets. I can't remember all the websites and mfgrs, sorry.
        >
        > sergeants3.com
        > link
        > castawayarts.com.au
        > ageofglory.com (for Perry's)
        > oldgloryminiatures.com
        > link
        > bicorne.net/catalog
        > dixonminiatures.co.uk
        > copplestonecastings.co.uk
        > redoubtenterprises.com
        >
        > Cheers,
        >
        > JB
        >
        >
        > --- In ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com, "amilne70" <kenshin68@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Brand new both to the forum and to gaming Colonials. I have not settled on miniatures or rules yet but I am planning on 28mm minis and am interested in hearing more about Sword & Flame rules.
        > >
        > > Can anyone tell me what size units/ bases are in the game (platoon, company, battalian, etc...) and what a game turn flow is like.
        > >
        > > I'm primarily interested in starting with the Sudan campaigns. I welcome any figure recommendation in 25/28mm.
        > >
        > > Cheers.
        > >
        > > Danny
        > >
        >
      • edgington52@comcast.net
        Danny, Looking back, I don t think anyone has addressed unit size. Basically, infantry comes in 20 figure units. These are platoons, if they are British,
        Message 3 of 10 , May 4, 2009
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          Danny,
          Looking back, I don't think anyone has addressed unit size.
          Basically, infantry comes in 20 figure units. These are platoons, if they are British, Egyptians or Boers, clans if they are Pathan, Iviyos if they are Zulus, and Bands if they are Dervishes. For the British and Egyptians, two platoons, plus a captain and sergeant-major make a company. For the Boers, three platoons plus a commander (the field coronet) make a commando. Three Pathan clans plus a hill chief make a tribe. Three Zulu iviyos plus a senior Induna make an ibutho. Three Dervish bands plus an Emir make a tribe.

          Cavalry comes in 12 figure troops; two of these and a captain make a squadron.

          For artillery, one gun and four crew is the basic unit. Three of these make a battery.

          OK, that's pretty well abstracted, and you can ask What about the French, who had larger platoons or What about the old 99th, whose platoons were at half strength? The answer is that the rules work just fine with adjustments to unit strength. A popular variant uses half strength units, so you can get twice as many on the table. Seems to work just fine.

          Basing is one of the great thorny questions, since it isn't really called out in the rules. My figures are on square bases 19mm X 19mm or 20mm X 20mm. Some folks use square bases for Imperial troops, who can form line, and round bases for natives, who move about in clumps. I'm giving this a try with the Pathans I just based. I used fender washers 3/4 inches in diameter, which is the 19mm-20mm again. You do need to adjust things so one side doesn't take unfair advantage of their base sizes.

          David Edgington
          ----- Original Message -----
          From: "amilne70" <kenshin68@...>
          To: ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Sunday, April 26, 2009 2:36:11 AM GMT -07:00 US/Canada Mountain
          Subject: [ColonialWars] Newbie Sword & Flame question...








          Brand new both to the forum and to gaming Colonials. I have not settled on miniatures or rules yet but I am planning on 28mm minis and am interested in hearing more about Sword & Flame rules.

          Can anyone tell me what size units/ bases are in the game (platoon, company, battalian, etc...) and what a game turn flow is like.

          I'm primarily interested in starting with the Sudan campaigns. I welcome any figure recommendation in 25/28mm.

          Cheers.

          Danny




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • John Moher
          ... Danny - also IMHO don t get too hung up on the unit designations either... TSATF seems to be structured at around 1:9 to 1:10 scale for British & Imperial
          Message 4 of 10 , May 5, 2009
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            > Looking back, I don't think anyone has addressed unit size.
            > Basically, infantry comes in 20 figure units. These are platoons, if they
            > are British, Egyptians or Boers, clans if they are Pathan, Iviyos if they
            > are Zulus, and Bands if they are Dervishes. For the British and Egyptians,
            > two platoons, plus a captain and sergeant-major make a company.

            Danny - also IMHO don't get too hung up on the unit designations either...
            TSATF seems to be structured at around 1:9 to 1:10 scale for British &
            Imperial Forces (vs. about 1:20 for Native Units) - that means a unit of 20
            figs represents 180-200 real men - obviously far far more than a Platoon -
            and a 'Battalion' of 84 Figs represents around 780-840 Real Men - which is
            actually about right for a full strength fresh battalion. Units of 20 Figs
            therefore probably represent about 2½ 'real life' infantry companies (e.g.
            typically British units of the era had 8 companies of around 80-100 men each
            plus a Battalion HQ) - so in my case I have simply ignored the Platoon
            terminology in the book and instead call a 20 fig unit a Company, and 4 of
            those with about a 4 Fig HQ is a Battalion. Likewise a 12 Fig Cavalry Unit
            is a Squadron and 3 Squadrons and a 2-3 Fig HQ is a Cavalry Regiment. 2 Guns
            with 4 crew each & a Mounted Commander is a Battery (representing 4 real
            guns). You can see an example of this logic on my site:
            http://wargaming.info/colonialpulp.htm (there is a PDF link near the bottom
            of the page).

            As mentioned you can safely split units - we occasionally use 10 Inf figs
            (or 6 Cav Figs) and treat that as a Platoon or Cavalry Troop (i.e. a sub
            unit of a Company) - although that's actually a reasonable enough number for
            an actual full strength Company or Squadron using a strict 1:9 or 1:10 scale
            for example.

            The great thing with TSATF is it works well across the board - so you can
            call the 20-fig units what you want: Platoons, Companies, or Battalions, and
            it'll play just fine. It all comes down to your own preferences and you can
            change from game to game - no one is going to chastise you for it.
            Personally I find Platoons/Troops just a bit too low level for the unit
            'designation' - and Battalions a bit high except for really big battles
            (there weren't huge numbers of really big Colonial battles with more than 2
            or 3 Battalions present - e.g. only 2 or 3 in the Zulu War, half a dozen or
            so in the Sudan in 1884-86, and the odd climactic one in the 2nd Afghan War
            - but there were lots of medium sized battles with various columns, or
            isolated individual battalions on garrison duty, and so on). But again you
            can just redesignate the units as Battalions or Regiments when you need
            those big battles and say the figure scale is 1:40 for Brits/Imperial & 1:80
            or 1:100 for Natives and quadruple your forces in real men terms instantly!

            For me Companies/Squadrons is about right 'in my mind' when thinking of the
            units and how the game actually plays on table - you can reasonably have 2-6
            on table typically depending on game & table size and it's reasonable to
            have a mixed column with companies & squadrons from different Regiments or
            Battalions - 1 Model Gun representing 2 real guns fits well at this level
            too and it all fits in roughly with both the most interesting mid-range
            sized battles and some of the Hollywood classics. It also means having say 6
            to 10 Native Units effectively gives you roughly about 2,500 to 4,000
            Natives vs. a mixed column of 400 to 1200 Imperial Infantry & Cavalry...

            Now go give them a bit of what for eh, old chap?!

            ;-)

            J.


            World Crossfire Day - details & results:
            http://wargaming.info/crossfire/wcfd2009.htm

            Twittering: http://twitter.com/Mycenius

            John Moher - Auckland, New Zealand.
            http://wargaming.info/
          • Jeffrey Baumal
            Bill Short, How the heck are you brother? We ve missed you and your killer TSATF games at the Florida cons. I have heard that you were way over worked, sad but
            Message 5 of 10 , Jun 30, 2009
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              Bill Short,

              How the heck are you brother? We've missed you and your killer TSATF games at the Florida cons. I have heard that you were way over worked, sad but true I see. Nick Zizo and I are going to run a HUGE TSATF Sudan game at this upcoming Hurricon. Interested????

              Cheers,

              Jeff






              --- In ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com, "bnmshort" <bnmshort@...> wrote:
              >
              > Feeling a need to chime in. I must respectfully disagree with Jeff's assessment of Redoubt figs. Many of my British units are Redoubt, while many of the Dervish tend to be Old Glory, despite the occasional odd pose. I view the larger figures of Redoubt as a 'representation' that Tommy should always stand taller than his enemy. For my Old Glory British units, I tend to base them on washers instead of flats to give them a touch more height.
              >
              > As to rules, my personal favorite is the Sword and the Flame. Hands down. Works for all size of game from 1-14 players from the lowliest garage to the finest sort of convention.
              >
              > An aside- I've missed gaming a lot having been diagnosed with 'workaholism' for the past several years, but have started brushing my way through the unpainted lead box again to work the rust off. I look forward to tapping into the all-knowing hive again as I begin kicking back into my favorite colonial theater, the 'Soudan'.
              >
              > Good luck to you Danny.
              >
              > -Bill Short
              >
              > --- In ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com, "Jeffrey Baumal" <jbaumal@> wrote:
              > >
              > > I have been gaming colonial games since the early 1980's with THE SWORD AND THE FLAME rules sets in both 15mm and 25/28mm with out changing the game scale, movement or firing distances. This is my personal favorite and the set the majority of us play at conventions as well at and my club's gatherings. They are a great skirmish set and can be used for large battles as well. There are about a dozen variations for all sorts of colonial conflicts around the world. The same author also makes 2 other great sets of colonial rules, BY BATTALION FIRE, and 800 FIGHTING ENGLISHMEN, both also highly recommended.
              > >
              > > I have been collecting 25/28mm Sudan figures for several years (lost count). I fell in love with the Castaway Arts range from Australia one year at Historicon which started off this huge project. I have added many Old Glory figures to my collection and more recently Perry figs from Age of Glory. I use all the different mfgrs. figures on the table at the same time, but use them in separate units for the most part. I have also added figures from all the other 28mm mfgrs that make Sudan figs, including Britania, Dixon, Copplestone Brit Naval Brigade and a few Somali warriors, Cannon Fodder captured Egyptian gun crew, some Foundry and Connisseur natives and a couple of Bicorne and Redoubt figs. All these can be used on the table at the same time as they have a similar build and size. We even have several unit of Ral Partha smaller 25mm figs. Some have been mounted on slightly taller bases, others are left as is. In my opinion once the battle starts the small differences in size become meaningless and only the action counts in the heat of battle! It's all up to you and your preferences. For instance there is a great and complete range of Sudan figs by Redoubt, but to me they are too large to fit in. I do use a few of their figs though, but not many. There is a size comparison chart on the yahoo colonial wars group site.
              > >
              > > Have a great time organizing and painting your new collection.
              > >
              > > Here's the links for the majority of the figs I use and the rules sets. I can't remember all the websites and mfgrs, sorry.
              > >
              > > sergeants3.com
              > > link
              > > castawayarts.com.au
              > > ageofglory.com (for Perry's)
              > > oldgloryminiatures.com
              > > link
              > > bicorne.net/catalog
              > > dixonminiatures.co.uk
              > > copplestonecastings.co.uk
              > > redoubtenterprises.com
              > >
              > > Cheers,
              > >
              > > JB
              > >
              > >
              > > --- In ColonialWars@yahoogroups.com, "amilne70" <kenshin68@> wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Brand new both to the forum and to gaming Colonials. I have not settled on miniatures or rules yet but I am planning on 28mm minis and am interested in hearing more about Sword & Flame rules.
              > > >
              > > > Can anyone tell me what size units/ bases are in the game (platoon, company, battalian, etc...) and what a game turn flow is like.
              > > >
              > > > I'm primarily interested in starting with the Sudan campaigns. I welcome any figure recommendation in 25/28mm.
              > > >
              > > > Cheers.
              > > >
              > > > Danny
              > > >
              > >
              >
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