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My electrolysis.....

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  • James
    For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work
    Message 1 of 20 , Oct 7, 2010
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      For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work right now.
    • Kim Ghobrial
      That is normal for the process. All you have to do, is when you take out the coins, drop them into White Vinegar for a few minutes and then wash with soap and
      Message 2 of 20 , Oct 7, 2010
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        That is normal for the process. All you have to do, is when you take
        out the coins, drop them into White Vinegar for a few minutes and then
        wash with soap and water with a Toothbrush, then rinse them off and if
        they need more zapping, then do it and then again, as you are taking
        them out, drop them into the Vinegar, etc.

        Kim

        On 10/7/2010 5:20 PM, James wrote:
        >
        >
        > For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the
        > tips of my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture
        > but I am at work right now.
        >
        >
      • Jerry Jones
        Hey my friend!  James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I have never had this
        Message 3 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
        • 0 Attachment
          Hey my friend!  James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I have never had this problem.  I would guess that perhaps 3- 5% of our membership population has.  I have spent hundreds of hours working with Zapping and your problem would be a challenge for me it it occurred.  That is my nature.
           
          I can only surmise there is something about the water you use.  I don't recall if anyone has tried to correct the problem by using inexpensive distilled water.  One other thing you may want to try is to leave your water sitting out in an open container overnight before using.  I know this is a good way to get rid of chlorine.  
           
          Please keep us posted and let us know what happens.  I see that Kim has posted a solution as to how to get rid of the black.  Please try Kim's solution.  I think this is a proven method as I recall.  Thank you for your post and I look forward to seeing more posts as you deal with this.. God Bless.. Jerry..    

          - Jerry Jones
          My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
          My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

          --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...> wrote:


          From: James <vegas_football_picks@...>
          Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
          To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
          Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM


           



          For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work right now.








          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Chris
          James/Jerry, I ve been one of the 3-5% that experiences this.  I use distilled water, 100% SC, and solid copper clips in one of the zappers Chuck made and
          Message 4 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
          • 0 Attachment
            James/Jerry,

            I've been one of the 3-5% that experiences this.  I use distilled water, 100%
            SC, and solid copper clips in one of the zappers Chuck made and sold with
            graphite rods.  Kim's solution works ok, but I find if the coin is not waxed
            quickly, it will darken again.  Since I like to make sure the coin is dry, I've
            learned to live with the "black" patina on the few coins I zap.

            Chris

             



            ________________________________
            From: Jerry Jones <jceaus@...>
            To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 12:54:10 PM
            Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....

             
            Hey my friend!  James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are
            experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I have never
            had this problem.  I would guess that perhaps 3- 5% of our membership population
            has.  I have spent hundreds of hours working with Zapping and your problem would
            be a challenge for me it it occurred.  That is my nature.
             
            I can only surmise there is something about the water you use.  I don't recall
            if anyone has tried to correct the problem by using inexpensive distilled
            water.  One other thing you may want to try is to leave your water sitting out
            in an open container overnight before using.  I know this is a good way to get
            rid of chlorine.  

             
            Please keep us posted and let us know what happens.  I see that Kim has posted a
            solution as to how to get rid of the black.  Please try Kim's solution.  I think
            this is a proven method as I recall.  Thank you for your post and I look forward
            to seeing more posts as you deal with this.. God Bless.. Jerry..    

            - Jerry Jones
            My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
            My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

            --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...> wrote:

            From: James <vegas_football_picks@...>
            Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
            To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
            Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM

             

            For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of
            my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work
            right now.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • James
            I also keep salt water aquarium and I have an RO/DI water filtration system for my saltwater tanks. I wonder what would happen if I used that in my
            Message 5 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
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              I also keep salt water aquarium and I have an RO/DI water filtration system for my saltwater tanks. I wonder what would happen if I used that in my electrolysis. It will be as pure as water can get Reverse Osmosis and Deionized. Any thoughts on that??

              --- In CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com, Chris <darwin312003@...> wrote:
              >
              > James/Jerry,
              >
              > I've been one of the 3-5% that experiences this.  I use distilled water, 100%
              > SC, and solid copper clips in one of the zappers Chuck made and sold with
              > graphite rods.  Kim's solution works ok, but I find if the coin is not waxed
              > quickly, it will darken again.  Since I like to make sure the coin is dry, I've
              > learned to live with the "black" patina on the few coins I zap.
              >
              > Chris
              >
              >  
              >
              >
              >
              > ________________________________
              > From: Jerry Jones <jceaus@...>
              > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
              > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 12:54:10 PM
              > Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
              >
              >  
              > Hey my friend!  James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are
              > experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I have never
              > had this problem.  I would guess that perhaps 3- 5% of our membership population
              > has.  I have spent hundreds of hours working with Zapping and your problem would
              > be a challenge for me it it occurred.  That is my nature.
              >  
              > I can only surmise there is something about the water you use.  I don't recall
              > if anyone has tried to correct the problem by using inexpensive distilled
              > water.  One other thing you may want to try is to leave your water sitting out
              > in an open container overnight before using.  I know this is a good way to get
              > rid of chlorine.  
              >
              >  
              > Please keep us posted and let us know what happens.  I see that Kim has posted a
              > solution as to how to get rid of the black.  Please try Kim's solution.  I think
              > this is a proven method as I recall.  Thank you for your post and I look forward
              > to seeing more posts as you deal with this.. God Bless.. Jerry..    
              >
              > - Jerry Jones
              > My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
              > My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com
              >
              > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...> wrote:
              >
              > From: James <vegas_football_picks@...>
              > Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
              > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
              > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM
              >
              >  
              >
              > For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of
              > my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work
              > right now.
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • Dan Mancuso
              Water does no conduct electricity if it is pure water... It needs an electrolyte. People here have there preferences, but as of yet, have not been able to
              Message 6 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
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                Water does no conduct electricity if it is pure water... It needs an
                electrolyte. People here have there preferences, but as of yet, have
                not been able to explain why thier choice, is their choice, other
                than... "it works real good", "It works well for me", "it doesn't cause
                the coins to go into solution", "Fish like it better"...

                TO me, the simpler the electrolyte, the better. the more inert would
                possibly be an incentive, I Wonder how Butter would work? hehee!
                FRENCH FRIES!!!!!!!!!!!

                ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.


                On 10/8/2010 7:44 PM, James wrote:
                >
                > I also keep salt water aquarium and I have an RO/DI water filtration
                > system for my saltwater tanks. I wonder what would happen if I used
                > that in my electrolysis. It will be as pure as water can get Reverse
                > Osmosis and Deionized. Any thoughts on that??
                >
                >


                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Dan Mancuso
                ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to SOMETHING (possibly
                Message 7 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
                • 0 Attachment
                  ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                  CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                  SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                  coin/metal. PERIOD.

                  Solution.

                  remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                  PERIOD.

                  I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                  or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                  hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                  and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                  the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)

                  As I started saying, I emphasize RINSING after doing ANYTHING to a coin
                  to "change" it... the next step... get yourself $100 worth of the best
                  LENS cleaning CLOTHS (not the paper schlitz) CLOTHS (Kmart has them I
                  think for $1.00 a pack) use them only for a short time, BE FREAKING
                  CAREFUL where you put them down... in fact, if you put them down, toss
                  them in a receptacle (a Hamper for Lens cloths) use these to remove
                  whatever you used to rinse the coins (I rinse for 20 to 60 seconds, so I
                  don't use distilled water... beside distilled water comes out of a
                  bottle laced with PVC, PCP, DNA, MSG, LMN, WTF, and usually ETC. (I think)

                  seriously... that lens cloth thing was something I mentioned eons ago,
                  but seldom since, so I mention it again... I suggest GOOD/BEST lens
                  cloths, because they are designed to clean even PLASTIC lenses (that
                  scratch FAR easier than a good coin surface (especially one tht has
                  survived burial for 2000 years (give or take some centuries) or even
                  more Modern coins, say 14th-15th century :-) or even pocket change aged
                  coins...

                  I won't tell you what I have used them on, because you'll do it and funk
                  it up and tell me I said you could do that and it should work Like i
                  said and I better buy you a new 1.0ozt gold eagle... This is also why I
                  will NEVER tell ANYONE what i use to clean coins... because it isn't
                  WHAT... it is HOW!!! (and WHICH for WHAT is important to, and a lot of
                  that has to do with WHAT is ON the THING)

                  Then get yourself a Klondike Bar! (me, I'll have a FUDGE bar, because
                  they have more electrolytes, and the wrappers are as soft as a babies

                  ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                  ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.


                  On 10/8/2010 3:29 PM, Chris wrote:
                  >
                  > James/Jerry,
                  >
                  > I've been one of the 3-5% that experiences this. I use distilled
                  > water, 100%
                  > SC, and solid copper clips in one of the zappers Chuck made and sold with
                  > graphite rods. Kim's solution works ok, but I find if the coin is not
                  > waxed
                  > quickly, it will darken again. Since I like to make sure the coin is
                  > dry, I've
                  > learned to live with the "black" patina on the few coins I zap.
                  >
                  > Chris
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > ________________________________
                  > From: Jerry Jones <jceaus@... <mailto:jceaus%40yahoo.com>>
                  > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CoinZappers%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 12:54:10 PM
                  > Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                  >
                  >
                  > Hey my friend! James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are
                  > experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I
                  > have never
                  > had this problem. I would guess that perhaps 3- 5% of our membership
                  > population
                  > has. I have spent hundreds of hours working with Zapping and your
                  > problem would
                  > be a challenge for me it it occurred. That is my nature.
                  >
                  > I can only surmise there is something about the water you use. I
                  > don't recall
                  > if anyone has tried to correct the problem by using inexpensive distilled
                  > water. One other thing you may want to try is to leave your water
                  > sitting out
                  > in an open container overnight before using. I know this is a good
                  > way to get
                  > rid of chlorine.
                  >
                  >
                  > Please keep us posted and let us know what happens. I see that Kim
                  > has posted a
                  > solution as to how to get rid of the black. Please try Kim's
                  > solution. I think
                  > this is a proven method as I recall. Thank you for your post and I
                  > look forward
                  > to seeing more posts as you deal with this.. God Bless.. Jerry..
                  >
                  > - Jerry Jones
                  > My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                  > My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com
                  >
                  > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...
                  > <mailto:vegas_football_picks%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                  >
                  > From: James <vegas_football_picks@...
                  > <mailto:vegas_football_picks%40yahoo.com>>
                  > Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                  > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CoinZappers%40yahoogroups.com>
                  > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM
                  >
                  >
                  >
                  > For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the
                  > tips of
                  > my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I
                  > am at work
                  > right now.
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  >
                  >


                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • Jerry Jones
                  Thank you Chris and good feedback.. God Bless.. Jerry.. - Jerry Jones My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com My Blog:
                  Message 8 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
                  • 0 Attachment
                    Thank you Chris and good feedback.. God Bless.. Jerry..

                    - Jerry Jones
                    My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                    My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

                    --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Chris <darwin312003@...> wrote:


                    From: Chris <darwin312003@...>
                    Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                    To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 2:29 PM


                     



                    James/Jerry,

                    I've been one of the 3-5% that experiences this.  I use distilled water, 100%
                    SC, and solid copper clips in one of the zappers Chuck made and sold with
                    graphite rods.  Kim's solution works ok, but I find if the coin is not waxed
                    quickly, it will darken again.  Since I like to make sure the coin is dry, I've
                    learned to live with the "black" patina on the few coins I zap.

                    Chris

                     

                    ________________________________
                    From: Jerry Jones <jceaus@...>
                    To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 12:54:10 PM
                    Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....

                     
                    Hey my friend!  James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are
                    experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I have never
                    had this problem.  I would guess that perhaps 3- 5% of our membership population
                    has.  I have spent hundreds of hours working with Zapping and your problem would
                    be a challenge for me it it occurred.  That is my nature.
                     
                    I can only surmise there is something about the water you use.  I don't recall
                    if anyone has tried to correct the problem by using inexpensive distilled
                    water.  One other thing you may want to try is to leave your water sitting out
                    in an open container overnight before using.  I know this is a good way to get
                    rid of chlorine.  

                     
                    Please keep us posted and let us know what happens.  I see that Kim has posted a
                    solution as to how to get rid of the black.  Please try Kim's solution.  I think
                    this is a proven method as I recall.  Thank you for your post and I look forward
                    to seeing more posts as you deal with this.. God Bless.. Jerry..    

                    - Jerry Jones
                    My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                    My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

                    --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...> wrote:

                    From: James <vegas_football_picks@...>
                    Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                    To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                    Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM

                     

                    For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of
                    my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work
                    right now.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jerry Jones
                    Be sure and avoid any salt James, please!  Let us know what happens if you pursue.. God Bless.. Jerry.. - Jerry Jones My Coin Store:
                    Message 9 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Be sure and avoid any salt James, please!  Let us know what happens if you pursue.. God Bless.. Jerry..

                      - Jerry Jones
                      My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                      My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

                      --- On Fri, 10/8/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...> wrote:


                      From: James <vegas_football_picks@...>
                      Subject: [CoinZappers] Re: My electrolysis.....
                      To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                      Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 6:44 PM


                       



                      I also keep salt water aquarium and I have an RO/DI water filtration system for my saltwater tanks. I wonder what would happen if I used that in my electrolysis. It will be as pure as water can get Reverse Osmosis and Deionized. Any thoughts on that??

                      --- In CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com, Chris <darwin312003@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > James/Jerry,
                      >
                      > I've been one of the 3-5% that experiences this.  I use distilled water, 100%
                      > SC, and solid copper clips in one of the zappers Chuck made and sold with
                      > graphite rods.  Kim's solution works ok, but I find if the coin is not waxed
                      > quickly, it will darken again.  Since I like to make sure the coin is dry, I've
                      > learned to live with the "black" patina on the few coins I zap.
                      >
                      > Chris
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > ________________________________
                      > From: Jerry Jones <jceaus@...>
                      > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 12:54:10 PM
                      > Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                      >
                      >  
                      > Hey my friend!  James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are
                      > experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I have never
                      > had this problem.  I would guess that perhaps 3- 5% of our membership population
                      > has.  I have spent hundreds of hours working with Zapping and your problem would
                      > be a challenge for me it it occurred.  That is my nature.
                      >  
                      > I can only surmise there is something about the water you use.  I don't recall
                      > if anyone has tried to correct the problem by using inexpensive distilled
                      > water.  One other thing you may want to try is to leave your water sitting out
                      > in an open container overnight before using.  I know this is a good way to get
                      > rid of chlorine.  
                      >
                      >  
                      > Please keep us posted and let us know what happens.  I see that Kim has posted a
                      > solution as to how to get rid of the black.  Please try Kim's solution.  I think
                      > this is a proven method as I recall.  Thank you for your post and I look forward
                      > to seeing more posts as you deal with this.. God Bless.. Jerry..    
                      >
                      > - Jerry Jones
                      > My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                      > My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com
                      >
                      > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...> wrote:
                      >
                      > From: James <vegas_football_picks@...>
                      > Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                      > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM
                      >
                      >  
                      >
                      > For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of
                      > my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work
                      > right now.
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      >








                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Jerry Jones
                      Hi Dan!  I use white vinegar as my stop bath.  I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate.. God Bless.. Jerry.. -
                      Message 10 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi Dan!  I use white vinegar as my stop bath.  I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate.. God Bless.. Jerry..

                        - Jerry Jones
                        My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                        My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

                        --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...> wrote:


                        From: Dan Mancuso <danm@...>
                        Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                        To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                        Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 7:13 PM


                         



                        ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                        CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                        SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                        coin/metal. PERIOD.

                        Solution.

                        remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                        PERIOD.

                        I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                        or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                        hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                        and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                        the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)

                        As I started saying, I emphasize RINSING after doing ANYTHING to a coin
                        to "change" it... the next step... get yourself $100 worth of the best
                        LENS cleaning CLOTHS (not the paper schlitz) CLOTHS (Kmart has them I
                        think for $1.00 a pack) use them only for a short time, BE FREAKING
                        CAREFUL where you put them down... in fact, if you put them down, toss
                        them in a receptacle (a Hamper for Lens cloths) use these to remove
                        whatever you used to rinse the coins (I rinse for 20 to 60 seconds, so I
                        don't use distilled water... beside distilled water comes out of a
                        bottle laced with PVC, PCP, DNA, MSG, LMN, WTF, and usually ETC. (I think)

                        seriously... that lens cloth thing was something I mentioned eons ago,
                        but seldom since, so I mention it again... I suggest GOOD/BEST lens
                        cloths, because they are designed to clean even PLASTIC lenses (that
                        scratch FAR easier than a good coin surface (especially one tht has
                        survived burial for 2000 years (give or take some centuries) or even
                        more Modern coins, say 14th-15th century :-) or even pocket change aged
                        coins...

                        I won't tell you what I have used them on, because you'll do it and funk
                        it up and tell me I said you could do that and it should work Like i
                        said and I better buy you a new 1.0ozt gold eagle... This is also why I
                        will NEVER tell ANYONE what i use to clean coins... because it isn't
                        WHAT... it is HOW!!! (and WHICH for WHAT is important to, and a lot of
                        that has to do with WHAT is ON the THING)

                        Then get yourself a Klondike Bar! (me, I'll have a FUDGE bar, because
                        they have more electrolytes, and the wrappers are as soft as a babies

                        ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                        ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.

                        On 10/8/2010 3:29 PM, Chris wrote:
                        >
                        > James/Jerry,
                        >
                        > I've been one of the 3-5% that experiences this. I use distilled
                        > water, 100%
                        > SC, and solid copper clips in one of the zappers Chuck made and sold with
                        > graphite rods. Kim's solution works ok, but I find if the coin is not
                        > waxed
                        > quickly, it will darken again. Since I like to make sure the coin is
                        > dry, I've
                        > learned to live with the "black" patina on the few coins I zap.
                        >
                        > Chris
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > ________________________________
                        > From: Jerry Jones <jceaus@... <mailto:jceaus%40yahoo.com>>
                        > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CoinZappers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 12:54:10 PM
                        > Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                        >
                        >
                        > Hey my friend! James, the strange thing about the phenomenon you are
                        > experiencing is that after Zapping hundreds and hundreds of coins I
                        > have never
                        > had this problem. I would guess that perhaps 3- 5% of our membership
                        > population
                        > has. I have spent hundreds of hours working with Zapping and your
                        > problem would
                        > be a challenge for me it it occurred. That is my nature.
                        >
                        > I can only surmise there is something about the water you use. I
                        > don't recall
                        > if anyone has tried to correct the problem by using inexpensive distilled
                        > water. One other thing you may want to try is to leave your water
                        > sitting out
                        > in an open container overnight before using. I know this is a good
                        > way to get
                        > rid of chlorine.
                        >
                        >
                        > Please keep us posted and let us know what happens. I see that Kim
                        > has posted a
                        > solution as to how to get rid of the black. Please try Kim's
                        > solution. I think
                        > this is a proven method as I recall. Thank you for your post and I
                        > look forward
                        > to seeing more posts as you deal with this.. God Bless.. Jerry..
                        >
                        > - Jerry Jones
                        > My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                        > My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com
                        >
                        > --- On Thu, 10/7/10, James <vegas_football_picks@...
                        > <mailto:vegas_football_picks%40yahoo.com>> wrote:
                        >
                        > From: James <vegas_football_picks@...
                        > <mailto:vegas_football_picks%40yahoo.com>>
                        > Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                        > To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com <mailto:CoinZappers%40yahoogroups.com>
                        > Date: Thursday, October 7, 2010, 7:20 PM
                        >
                        >
                        >
                        > For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the
                        > tips of
                        > my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I
                        > am at work
                        > right now.
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        >
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • Dan Mancuso
                        I know Jerry, you have said it before... ... but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY? Also... ... This might indicate that a STRONG
                        Message 11 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
                        • 0 Attachment
                          I know Jerry, you have said it before...
                          > I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with
                          > sodium carbonate
                          but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY?

                          Also...
                          > I use white vinegar as my stop bath.
                          This might indicate that a STRONG Base (alkaline) was used as the
                          electrolyte. Sodium Carbonate vs Sodium Chloride? as far as bases...
                          not too dissimilar... although proper use of Sodium Chloride has always
                          been the electrolyte of choice in many applications of electrolysis

                          This is from Wikipedia and may be the basis of why you frown on "Salt"
                          (although, you do not base it on the broad definition of "Salt")
                          > An *electrolyte* : a substance containing free ions which are the
                          > carriers of electric current in the electrolyte. If the ions are not
                          > mobile, as in a solid salt then electrolysis cannot occur.
                          The key word above is SOLID... and of course that will not work, neither
                          would NaCO3 (that's sodium carbonate, no? if it is solid, no juice will
                          flow, nothing will happen, they must be in solution.

                          Something to consider:
                          >
                          >
                          > First law of electrolysis
                          >
                          > In 1832, Michael Faraday reported that the quantity of elements
                          > separated by passing an electric current through a molten or
                          > dissolved* salt *is proportional to the quantity of electric charge
                          > passed through the circuit. This became the basis of the first law of
                          > electrolysis
                          >
                          > Electrolysis is also used in the cleaning and preservation of old
                          > artifacts. Because the process separates the non-metallic particles
                          > from the metallic ones, * it is very useful for cleaning old coins*
                          > and even larger objects.
                          As I read on, separating the reason for the article (the creation of
                          Hydrogen) is suggested that because ... well, it got more complicated
                          than I cared to digest at the time... but as for the list of
                          electrolyte materials, NaCL was on the list... Carbonate wasn't... but
                          in the end, for the cleaning process, neither really mattered... but I
                          got from it, because other "goodies" are produced during the
                          electrolysis, it might be good idea to "change" the water from time to
                          time...

                          And to boot... after reading another article... it turns out, typical
                          Tap Water is highly sufficient for separating metal and non-metal
                          components with electrolysis.

                          I dunno Jerry... In the whole thing, I was simply remembering
                          Electrolysis from other operations of the past, and cleaning metal
                          objects was done... and simple salt was what was used... IN VERY VERY
                          VERY VERY VERY VERY small quantities.

                          Putting coins in ACID when done.. bad idea... electrolysis does not
                          mess with the metal. ACID DOES!... rinse well in tap water... dry with
                          Lens (cleaning) Cloth



                          These are the ones I thing I got for like a buck or two... they are
                          fantastic... use a bit, then toss in with the laundry.. I have at least
                          a dozen of these... (and a few others of even better quality I get when
                          I go to the optometrist)

                          I likely will mention this again, but I think this is time 3... so,
                          maybe not... I listed a little of WHY... I hope you and the others can
                          offer a why (or something similar)

                          Gracias...
                          Dan

                          ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                          ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.


                          On 10/8/2010 9:00 PM, Jerry Jones wrote:
                          >
                          > Hi Dan! I use white vinegar as my stop bath. I have not found a
                          > better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate..
                          > God Bless.. Jerry..
                          >
                          >
                          > --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...
                          > <mailto:danm%40swcp.com>> wrote:
                          >
                          >
                          > ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                          > CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                          > SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                          > coin/metal. PERIOD.
                          >
                          > Solution.
                          >
                          > remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                          > PERIOD.
                          >
                          > I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                          > or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                          > hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                          > and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                          > the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)
                          >

                          An extract from the table of standard electrode potentials is shown below.

                          Half-reaction E° (V) Ref.
                          Na+ + e− Na(s) −2.71 [1] * <-------------------------*
                          Zn2+ + 2e− Zn(s) −0.7618 [2]
                          2H+ + 2e− H2(g) ≡ 0
                          Br2(aq) + 2e− 2Br− +1.0873 [2]
                          O2(g) + 4H+ + 4e− 2H2O +1.23 [1]
                          Cl2(g) + 2e− 2Cl− +1.36 [1] * <---------------------------*
                          S2O82– + 2e− 2SO2−4 +2.07 [1]

                          In terms of electrolysis, this table should be interpreted as follows

                          oxidised species (often a cation) nearer the top of the table are more
                          difficult to reduce than oxidised species further down. For example it
                          is more difficult to reduce sodium ion to sodium metal than it is to
                          reduce zinc ion to zinc metal.
                          reduced species (often an anion) near the bottom of the table are more
                          difficult to oxidise than reduced species higher up. For example it is
                          more difficult to oxidise sulfate anions than it is to oxidise bromide
                          anions.
                          Using the Nernst equation the electrode potential can be calculated for
                          a specific concentration of ions, temperature and the number of
                          electrons involved. For pure water (pH 7):

                          the electrode potential for the reduction producing hydrogen is −0.41 V
                          the electrode potential for the oxidation producing oxygen is +0.82 V.


                          *WHEW!!!!!!!*


                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Bob Lilja
                          It should be noted that electrolysis of salt, sodium chloride, produces gas chlorine. If this is done in an enclosed space it can be dangerous. Commercialy,
                          Message 12 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
                          • 0 Attachment
                            It should be noted that electrolysis of salt, sodium chloride, produces gas
                            chlorine. If this is done in an enclosed space it can be dangerous. Commercialy,
                            caustic soda and gas chlorine are manufactured by electrolysis of brine.

                             
                             
                             




                            ________________________________
                            From: Dan Mancuso <danm@...>
                            To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                            Cc: Jerry Jones <jceaus@...>
                            Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 9:19:48 PM
                            Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....

                             
                            I know Jerry, you have said it before...
                            > I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with
                            > sodium carbonate
                            but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY?

                            Also...
                            > I use white vinegar as my stop bath.
                            This might indicate that a STRONG Base (alkaline) was used as the
                            electrolyte. Sodium Carbonate vs Sodium Chloride? as far as bases...
                            not too dissimilar... although proper use of Sodium Chloride has always
                            been the electrolyte of choice in many applications of electrolysis

                            This is from Wikipedia and may be the basis of why you frown on "Salt"
                            (although, you do not base it on the broad definition of "Salt")
                            > An *electrolyte* : a substance containing free ions which are the
                            > carriers of electric current in the electrolyte. If the ions are not
                            > mobile, as in a solid salt then electrolysis cannot occur.
                            The key word above is SOLID... and of course that will not work, neither
                            would NaCO3 (that's sodium carbonate, no? if it is solid, no juice will
                            flow, nothing will happen, they must be in solution.

                            Something to consider:
                            >
                            >
                            > First law of electrolysis
                            >
                            > In 1832, Michael Faraday reported that the quantity of elements
                            > separated by passing an electric current through a molten or
                            > dissolved* salt *is proportional to the quantity of electric charge
                            > passed through the circuit. This became the basis of the first law of
                            > electrolysis
                            >
                            > Electrolysis is also used in the cleaning and preservation of old
                            > artifacts. Because the process separates the non-metallic particles
                            > from the metallic ones, * it is very useful for cleaning old coins*
                            > and even larger objects.
                            As I read on, separating the reason for the article (the creation of
                            Hydrogen) is suggested that because ... well, it got more complicated
                            than I cared to digest at the time... but as for the list of
                            electrolyte materials, NaCL was on the list... Carbonate wasn't... but
                            in the end, for the cleaning process, neither really mattered... but I
                            got from it, because other "goodies" are produced during the
                            electrolysis, it might be good idea to "change" the water from time to
                            time...

                            And to boot... after reading another article... it turns out, typical
                            Tap Water is highly sufficient for separating metal and non-metal
                            components with electrolysis.

                            I dunno Jerry... In the whole thing, I was simply remembering
                            Electrolysis from other operations of the past, and cleaning metal
                            objects was done... and simple salt was what was used... IN VERY VERY
                            VERY VERY VERY VERY small quantities.

                            Putting coins in ACID when done.. bad idea... electrolysis does not
                            mess with the metal. ACID DOES!... rinse well in tap water... dry with
                            Lens (cleaning) Cloth

                            These are the ones I thing I got for like a buck or two... they are
                            fantastic... use a bit, then toss in with the laundry.. I have at least
                            a dozen of these... (and a few others of even better quality I get when
                            I go to the optometrist)

                            I likely will mention this again, but I think this is time 3... so,
                            maybe not... I listed a little of WHY... I hope you and the others can
                            offer a why (or something similar)

                            Gracias...
                            Dan

                            ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                            ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.

                            On 10/8/2010 9:00 PM, Jerry Jones wrote:
                            >
                            > Hi Dan! I use white vinegar as my stop bath. I have not found a
                            > better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate..
                            > God Bless.. Jerry..
                            >
                            >
                            > --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...
                            > <mailto:danm%40swcp.com>> wrote:
                            >
                            >
                            > ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                            > CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                            > SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                            > coin/metal. PERIOD.
                            >
                            > Solution.
                            >
                            > remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                            > PERIOD.
                            >
                            > I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                            > or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                            > hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                            > and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                            > the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)
                            >

                            An extract from the table of standard electrode potentials is shown below.

                            Half-reaction E° (V) Ref.
                            Na+ + e− Na(s) −2.71 [1] * <-------------------------*
                            Zn2+ + 2e− Zn(s) −0.7618 [2]
                            2H+ + 2e− H2(g) ≡ 0
                            Br2(aq) + 2e− 2Br− +1.0873 [2]
                            O2(g) + 4H+ + 4e− 2H2O +1.23 [1]
                            Cl2(g) + 2e− 2Cl− +1.36 [1] * <---------------------------*
                            S2O82– + 2e− 2SO2−4 +2.07 [1]

                            In terms of electrolysis, this table should be interpreted as follows

                            oxidised species (often a cation) nearer the top of the table are more
                            difficult to reduce than oxidised species further down. For example it
                            is more difficult to reduce sodium ion to sodium metal than it is to
                            reduce zinc ion to zinc metal.
                            reduced species (often an anion) near the bottom of the table are more
                            difficult to oxidise than reduced species higher up. For example it is
                            more difficult to oxidise sulfate anions than it is to oxidise bromide
                            anions.
                            Using the Nernst equation the electrode potential can be calculated for
                            a specific concentration of ions, temperature and the number of
                            electrons involved. For pure water (pH 7):

                            the electrode potential for the reduction producing hydrogen is −0.41 V
                            the electrode potential for the oxidation producing oxygen is +0.82 V.

                            *WHEW!!!!!!!*

                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]




                            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                          • Dan Mancuso
                            I realize this, and if done the way coin zapping is, it would take years to produce chlorine gas of any consequence... consider what happens when you open a
                            Message 13 of 20 , Oct 8, 2010
                            • 0 Attachment
                              I realize this, and if done the way coin zapping is, it would take
                              years to produce chlorine gas of any consequence... consider what
                              happens when you open a bottle of BLEACH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

                              We are talking about ounces of liquid... NOT TONS!

                              hehe! thanks for the g.g.l. though :-)
                              On 10/9/2010 12:45 AM, Bob Lilja wrote:
                              >
                              > It should be noted that electrolysis of salt, sodium
                              > chloride, produces gas
                              > chlorine. If this is done in an enclosed space it can be dangerous.
                              > Commercialy,
                              > caustic soda and gas chlorine are manufactured by electrolysis of brine.
                              >
                              > ________________________________
                              > Also...
                              > An extract from the table of standard electrode potentials is shown below.
                              >
                              > Half-reaction E° (V) Ref.
                              > Na+ + e− Na(s) −2.71 [1] * <-------------------------*
                              > Zn2+ + 2e− Zn(s) −0.7618 [2]
                              > 2H+ + 2e− H2(g) ≡ 0
                              > Br2(aq) + 2e− 2Br− +1.0873 [2]
                              > O2(g) + 4H+ + 4e− 2H2O +1.23 [1]
                              > Cl2(g) + 2e− 2Cl− +1.36 [1] * <---------------------------*
                              > S2O82– + 2e− 2SO2−4 +2.07 [1]
                              >
                              > In terms of electrolysis, this table should be interpreted as follows
                              >
                              > oxidised species (often a cation) nearer the top of the table are more
                              > difficult to reduce than oxidised species further down. For example it
                              > is more difficult to reduce sodium ion to sodium metal than it is to
                              > reduce zinc ion to zinc metal.
                              > reduced species (often an anion) near the bottom of the table are more
                              > difficult to oxidise than reduced species higher up. For example it is
                              > more difficult to oxidise sulfate anions than it is to oxidise bromide
                              > anions.
                              > Using the Nernst equation the electrode potential can be calculated for
                              > a specific concentration of ions, temperature and the number of
                              > electrons involved. For pure water (pH 7):
                              >
                              > the electrode potential for the reduction producing hydrogen is −0.41 V
                              > the electrode potential for the oxidation producing oxygen is +0.82 V.
                              >
                              > *WHEW!!!!!!!*
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >


                              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                            • Carl Zipfel
                              The chemistry of this discussion has brought me out once again. So I apologize for the length of this short missive for in truth what is being talked about
                              Message 14 of 20 , Oct 9, 2010
                              • 0 Attachment
                                The chemistry of this discussion has brought me out once again. So I apologize for the length of this short missive for in truth what is being talked about could, and does, fill a text book.

                                Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Chloride are not bases, they are salts. Salts are the product of neutralization or the mixing of a base and an acid. In the case of Sodium Carbonate it was Sodium Hydroxide and Carbonic Acid. For Sodium Chloride it was Sodium Hydroxide and Hydrochloric Acid. Salts, when dissolved in water, can hydrolyze to produce a basic, an acidic, or a neutral solution based on the strength of the individual ions. In the case of Sodium Carbonate it will be basic since there is a preference to produce hydroxyl ions. Sodium Chloride solutions will be at, or near, neutral. And because Sodium Carbonate forms a weak base in solution it will react with an acid, such as vinegar, and it will fizz as it releases Carbon Dioxide.

                                Some salts make better electrolytes than other because they make more electrons available. In theory, what you use to make the electrolyte should not matter since it is current flow that causes electrolysis. So watch the amount of current that you apply, more is not necessarily better. However, in practicality what you use does matter. The issue is un-removed residues. I don't know if thorough cleaning after electrolysis removes all residues, but washing (soaking) the cleaned coins is a must, preferably in distilled water. I fear that Sodium Chloride, or any Chloride for that matter, is problematic. In a moist environments residual chlorides can actively attack a coins surface on their owns (i.e. bronze disease).

                                An electrolyte is a substance that contains free electrons that will allow electrical conductivity. Pure water is non-conductive as it contains no free electrons, however add a salt to the water and now it will be conductive because the salt, as dissolved ions, adds free electrons to conduct electricity. The water is now an electrolyte. Solids can act as electrolytes if there are free electrons. The level of conductivity is based on the number of electrons in solution. Therefore, not all salts are created equal.

                                Faraday's 1st Law of Electrolysis has nothing to do with the separation of metals from other materials it sates that "The mass of a substance altered at an electrode during electrolysis is directly proportional to the quantity of electricity transferred at that electrode." It does however, relate to the deposition of materials (metals) on an electrode, this is called "electroplating". While this is interpreted to mean the separation of metals, in solution, to an electrode it should not be equated with the separation of encrustations, or oxidation products from a coins surface. At this point the electrochemistry gets very complicated. Let it suffice to say. That: (1) if the coin is the anode the process can, depending on the current flow, dissolve some metals off the surface. Note that I said some metals. (2) likewise, if the coin is the cathode the process can, depending on the current flow, add some metals onto the surface. Note that I said some metals. And (3) while water solution based electrolysis can, in some instances, break the bonds of some oxidation products, it can't do so for many other more stable compounds.

                                In the process of electrolysis cleaning of coins, I believe, that a number of distinct and individual processes are involved, some of them chemical, and some of them physical. (a) some of the encrustations (dirt) may be dissolved but more than likely they simply fall off (the sludge at the bottom). (b) the action of the water loosens some of these materials and they fall off. (c) the weak bonds that hold the encrustations together may be broken allowing it to break-up into smaller particles and fall off, (d) oxidation products at the coin surface are dissolved allowing the rest of the materials to fall off. (e) an increase of temperature at points of high resistance within the encrustation may be causing the materials to break-up, and (f) the agitation of the off-gassing that occurs helps to break up the encrustations. Any, and all, of these are affected by the amount of current that is applied across the electrodes.

                                Again sorry for the length,

                                Carl

                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Mancuso
                                Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:20 AM
                                To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                                Cc: Jerry Jones
                                Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....

                                I know Jerry, you have said it before...
                                > I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with
                                > sodium carbonate
                                but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY?

                                Also...
                                > I use white vinegar as my stop bath.
                                This might indicate that a STRONG Base (alkaline) was used as the
                                electrolyte. Sodium Carbonate vs Sodium Chloride? as far as bases...
                                not too dissimilar... although proper use of Sodium Chloride has always
                                been the electrolyte of choice in many applications of electrolysis

                                This is from Wikipedia and may be the basis of why you frown on "Salt"
                                (although, you do not base it on the broad definition of "Salt")
                                > An *electrolyte* : a substance containing free ions which are the
                                > carriers of electric current in the electrolyte. If the ions are not
                                > mobile, as in a solid salt then electrolysis cannot occur.
                                The key word above is SOLID... and of course that will not work, neither
                                would NaCO3 (that's sodium carbonate, no? if it is solid, no juice will
                                flow, nothing will happen, they must be in solution.

                                Something to consider:
                                >
                                >
                                > First law of electrolysis
                                >
                                > In 1832, Michael Faraday reported that the quantity of elements
                                > separated by passing an electric current through a molten or
                                > dissolved* salt *is proportional to the quantity of electric charge
                                > passed through the circuit. This became the basis of the first law of
                                > electrolysis
                                >
                                > Electrolysis is also used in the cleaning and preservation of old
                                > artifacts. Because the process separates the non-metallic particles
                                > from the metallic ones, * it is very useful for cleaning old coins*
                                > and even larger objects.
                                As I read on, separating the reason for the article (the creation of
                                Hydrogen) is suggested that because ... well, it got more complicated
                                than I cared to digest at the time... but as for the list of
                                electrolyte materials, NaCL was on the list... Carbonate wasn't... but
                                in the end, for the cleaning process, neither really mattered... but I
                                got from it, because other "goodies" are produced during the
                                electrolysis, it might be good idea to "change" the water from time to
                                time...

                                And to boot... after reading another article... it turns out, typical
                                Tap Water is highly sufficient for separating metal and non-metal
                                components with electrolysis.

                                I dunno Jerry... In the whole thing, I was simply remembering
                                Electrolysis from other operations of the past, and cleaning metal
                                objects was done... and simple salt was what was used... IN VERY VERY
                                VERY VERY VERY VERY small quantities.

                                Putting coins in ACID when done.. bad idea... electrolysis does not
                                mess with the metal. ACID DOES!... rinse well in tap water... dry with
                                Lens (cleaning) Cloth



                                These are the ones I thing I got for like a buck or two... they are
                                fantastic... use a bit, then toss in with the laundry.. I have at least
                                a dozen of these... (and a few others of even better quality I get when
                                I go to the optometrist)

                                I likely will mention this again, but I think this is time 3... so,
                                maybe not... I listed a little of WHY... I hope you and the others can
                                offer a why (or something similar)

                                Gracias...
                                Dan

                                ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                                ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.


                                On 10/8/2010 9:00 PM, Jerry Jones wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Dan! I use white vinegar as my stop bath. I have not found a
                                > better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate..
                                > God Bless.. Jerry..
                                >
                                >
                                > --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...
                                > <mailto:danm%40swcp.com>> wrote:
                                >
                                >
                                > ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                                > CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                                > SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                                > coin/metal. PERIOD.
                                >
                                > Solution.
                                >
                                > remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                                > PERIOD.
                                >
                                > I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                                > or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                                > hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                                > and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                                > the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)
                                >

                                An extract from the table of standard electrode potentials is shown below.

                                Half-reaction E° (V) Ref.
                                Na+ + e− Na(s) −2.71 [1] * <-------------------------*
                                Zn2+ + 2e− Zn(s) −0.7618 [2]
                                2H+ + 2e− H2(g) ≡ 0
                                Br2(aq) + 2e− 2Br− +1.0873 [2]
                                O2(g) + 4H+ + 4e− 2H2O +1.23 [1]
                                Cl2(g) + 2e− 2Cl− +1.36 [1] * <---------------------------*
                                S2O82– + 2e− 2SO2−4 +2.07 [1]

                                In terms of electrolysis, this table should be interpreted as follows

                                oxidised species (often a cation) nearer the top of the table are more
                                difficult to reduce than oxidised species further down. For example it
                                is more difficult to reduce sodium ion to sodium metal than it is to
                                reduce zinc ion to zinc metal.
                                reduced species (often an anion) near the bottom of the table are more
                                difficult to oxidise than reduced species higher up. For example it is
                                more difficult to oxidise sulfate anions than it is to oxidise bromide
                                anions.
                                Using the Nernst equation the electrode potential can be calculated for
                                a specific concentration of ions, temperature and the number of
                                electrons involved. For pure water (pH 7):

                                the electrode potential for the reduction producing hydrogen is −0.41 V
                                the electrode potential for the oxidation producing oxygen is +0.82 V.


                                *WHEW!!!!!!!*


                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]



                                ------------------------------------

                                Yahoo! Groups Links
                              • Bob Lilja
                                Maybe you used your solution too long and the alkalinity built up. ________________________________ From: James To:
                                Message 15 of 20 , Oct 9, 2010
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Maybe you used your solution too long and the alkalinity built up.




                                  ________________________________
                                  From: James <vegas_football_picks@...>
                                  To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                                  Sent: Thu, October 7, 2010 5:20:10 PM
                                  Subject: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....

                                   
                                  For some reason my electrolysis causes blackening of the coins and the tips of
                                  my clips holding the coins. Any ideas?? I would post a picture but I am at work
                                  right now.




                                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                • Jerry Jones
                                  I will explain what I know when I feel better my friend.. God Bless.. Jerry.. - Jerry Jones My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com My Blog:
                                  Message 16 of 20 , Oct 9, 2010
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    I will explain what I know when I feel better my friend.. God Bless.. Jerry..

                                    - Jerry Jones
                                    My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                                    My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

                                    --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...> wrote:


                                    From: Dan Mancuso <danm@...>
                                    Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                                    To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                                    Cc: "Jerry Jones" <jceaus@...>
                                    Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 11:19 PM


                                    I know Jerry, you have said it before...

                                    I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonatebut, you missed the all important part of any conclusion....  WHY?

                                    Also...

                                    I use white vinegar as my stop bath.This might indicate that a STRONG Base (alkaline) was used as the electrolyte. Sodium Carbonate vs Sodium Chloride?  as far as bases...  not too dissimilar... although proper use of Sodium Chloride has always been the electrolyte of choice in many applications of electrolysis

                                    This is from Wikipedia and may be the basis of why you frown on "Salt" (although, you do not base it on the broad definition of "Salt")

                                    An electrolyte : a substance containing free ions which are the carriers of electric current in the electrolyte. If the ions are not mobile, as in a solid salt then electrolysis cannot occur.The key word above is SOLID... and of course that will not work, neither would NaCO3 (that's sodium carbonate, no? if it is solid, no juice will flow, nothing will happen, they must be in solution.

                                    Something to consider:


                                    First law of electrolysis
                                    In 1832, Michael Faraday reported that the quantity of elements separated by passing an electric current through a molten or dissolved salt is proportional to the quantity of electric charge passed through the circuit. This became the basis of the first law of electrolysis
                                    Electrolysis is also used in the cleaning and preservation of old artifacts. Because the process separates the non-metallic particles from the metallic ones, it is very useful for cleaning old coins and even larger objects.As I read on, separating the reason for the article (the creation of Hydrogen) is suggested that  because ...  well, it got more complicated than I cared to digest at the time...  but as for the list of electrolyte materials, NaCL was on the list...  Carbonate wasn't...  but in the end, for the cleaning process, neither really mattered... but I got from it, because other "goodies" are produced during the electrolysis, it might be  good idea to "change" the water from time to time...

                                    And to boot...  after reading another article... it turns out, typical Tap Water is highly sufficient for separating metal and non-metal components with electrolysis.

                                    I dunno Jerry...  In the whole thing, I was simply remembering Electrolysis from other operations of the past, and cleaning metal objects was done...  and simple salt was what was used... IN VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY VERY small quantities. 

                                    Putting coins in ACID when done.. bad idea...  electrolysis does not mess with the metal. ACID DOES!...  rinse well in tap water... dry with Lens (cleaning) Cloth





                                    These are the ones I thing I got for like a buck or two... they are fantastic... use a bit, then toss in with the laundry.. I have at least a dozen of these...  (and a few others of even better quality I get when I go to the optometrist)

                                    I likely will mention this again, but I think this is time 3... so, maybe not... I listed a little of WHY...  I hope you and the others can offer a why (or something similar)

                                    Gracias...
                                    Dan
                                    ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                                    ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.
                                    On 10/8/2010 9:00 PM, Jerry Jones wrote:
                                     



                                    Hi Dan!  I use white vinegar as my stop bath.  I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate.. God Bless.. Jerry..


                                    --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...> wrote:


                                    ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                                    CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                                    SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                                    coin/metal. PERIOD.

                                    Solution.

                                    remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                                    PERIOD.

                                    I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                                    or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                                    hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                                    and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                                    the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)

                                     An extract from the table of standard electrode potentials is shown below.

                                    Half-reaction E° (V) Ref.
                                    Na+ + e−  Na(s) −2.71 [1]       <-------------------------
                                    Zn2+ + 2e−  Zn(s) −0.7618 [2]
                                    2H+ + 2e−  H2(g) ≡ 0
                                    Br2(aq) + 2e−  2Br− +1.0873 [2]
                                    O2(g) + 4H+ + 4e−  2H2O +1.23 [1]
                                    Cl2(g) + 2e−  2Cl− +1.36 [1]            <---------------------------
                                    S2O82– + 2e−  2SO2−4 +2.07 [1]

                                    In terms of electrolysis, this table should be interpreted as follows

                                    oxidised species (often a cation) nearer the top of the table are more difficult to reduce than oxidised species further down. For example it is more difficult to reduce sodium ion to sodium metal than it is to reduce zinc ion to zinc metal.
                                    reduced species (often an anion) near the bottom of the table are more difficult to oxidise than reduced species higher up. For example it is more difficult to oxidise sulfate anions than it is to oxidise bromide anions.
                                    Using the Nernst equation the electrode potential can be calculated for a specific concentration of ions, temperature and the number of electrons involved. For pure water (pH 7):

                                    the electrode potential for the reduction producing hydrogen is −0.41 V
                                    the electrode potential for the oxidation producing oxygen is +0.82 V.



                                    WHEW!!!!!!!


                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • Jerry Jones
                                    Right on Bob!  Will  possibly cause bronze disease too.. God Bless.. Jerry..   - Jerry Jones My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com My Blog:
                                    Message 17 of 20 , Oct 9, 2010
                                    • 0 Attachment
                                      Right on Bob!  Will  possibly cause bronze disease too.. God Bless.. Jerry..  

                                      - Jerry Jones
                                      My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                                      My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

                                      --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Bob Lilja <xpiacok@...> wrote:


                                      From: Bob Lilja <xpiacok@...>
                                      Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                                      To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 11:45 PM


                                       



                                      It should be noted that electrolysis of salt, sodium chloride, produces gas
                                      chlorine. If this is done in an enclosed space it can be dangerous. Commercialy,
                                      caustic soda and gas chlorine are manufactured by electrolysis of brine.

                                       
                                       
                                       

                                      ________________________________
                                      From: Dan Mancuso <danm@...>
                                      To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                                      Cc: Jerry Jones <jceaus@...>
                                      Sent: Fri, October 8, 2010 9:19:48 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....

                                       
                                      I know Jerry, you have said it before...
                                      > I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with
                                      > sodium carbonate
                                      but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY?

                                      Also...
                                      > I use white vinegar as my stop bath.
                                      This might indicate that a STRONG Base (alkaline) was used as the
                                      electrolyte. Sodium Carbonate vs Sodium Chloride? as far as bases...
                                      not too dissimilar... although proper use of Sodium Chloride has always
                                      been the electrolyte of choice in many applications of electrolysis

                                      This is from Wikipedia and may be the basis of why you frown on "Salt"
                                      (although, you do not base it on the broad definition of "Salt")
                                      > An *electrolyte* : a substance containing free ions which are the
                                      > carriers of electric current in the electrolyte. If the ions are not
                                      > mobile, as in a solid salt then electrolysis cannot occur.
                                      The key word above is SOLID... and of course that will not work, neither
                                      would NaCO3 (that's sodium carbonate, no? if it is solid, no juice will
                                      flow, nothing will happen, they must be in solution.

                                      Something to consider:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > First law of electrolysis
                                      >
                                      > In 1832, Michael Faraday reported that the quantity of elements
                                      > separated by passing an electric current through a molten or
                                      > dissolved* salt *is proportional to the quantity of electric charge
                                      > passed through the circuit. This became the basis of the first law of
                                      > electrolysis
                                      >
                                      > Electrolysis is also used in the cleaning and preservation of old
                                      > artifacts. Because the process separates the non-metallic particles
                                      > from the metallic ones, * it is very useful for cleaning old coins*
                                      > and even larger objects.
                                      As I read on, separating the reason for the article (the creation of
                                      Hydrogen) is suggested that because ... well, it got more complicated
                                      than I cared to digest at the time... but as for the list of
                                      electrolyte materials, NaCL was on the list... Carbonate wasn't... but
                                      in the end, for the cleaning process, neither really mattered... but I
                                      got from it, because other "goodies" are produced during the
                                      electrolysis, it might be good idea to "change" the water from time to
                                      time...

                                      And to boot... after reading another article... it turns out, typical
                                      Tap Water is highly sufficient for separating metal and non-metal
                                      components with electrolysis.

                                      I dunno Jerry... In the whole thing, I was simply remembering
                                      Electrolysis from other operations of the past, and cleaning metal
                                      objects was done... and simple salt was what was used... IN VERY VERY
                                      VERY VERY VERY VERY small quantities.

                                      Putting coins in ACID when done.. bad idea... electrolysis does not
                                      mess with the metal. ACID DOES!... rinse well in tap water... dry with
                                      Lens (cleaning) Cloth

                                      These are the ones I thing I got for like a buck or two... they are
                                      fantastic... use a bit, then toss in with the laundry.. I have at least
                                      a dozen of these... (and a few others of even better quality I get when
                                      I go to the optometrist)

                                      I likely will mention this again, but I think this is time 3... so,
                                      maybe not... I listed a little of WHY... I hope you and the others can
                                      offer a why (or something similar)

                                      Gracias...
                                      Dan

                                      ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                                      ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.

                                      On 10/8/2010 9:00 PM, Jerry Jones wrote:
                                      >
                                      > Hi Dan! I use white vinegar as my stop bath. I have not found a
                                      > better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate..
                                      > God Bless.. Jerry..
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...
                                      > <mailto:danm%40swcp.com>> wrote:
                                      >
                                      >
                                      > ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                                      > CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                                      > SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                                      > coin/metal. PERIOD.
                                      >
                                      > Solution.
                                      >
                                      > remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                                      > PERIOD.
                                      >
                                      > I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                                      > or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                                      > hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                                      > and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                                      > the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)
                                      >

                                      An extract from the table of standard electrode potentials is shown below.

                                      Half-reaction E° (V) Ref.
                                      Na+ + e− Na(s) −2.71 [1] * <-------------------------*
                                      Zn2+ + 2e− Zn(s) −0.7618 [2]
                                      2H+ + 2e− H2(g) ≡ 0
                                      Br2(aq) + 2e− 2Br− +1.0873 [2]
                                      O2(g) + 4H+ + 4e− 2H2O +1.23 [1]
                                      Cl2(g) + 2e− 2Cl− +1.36 [1] * <---------------------------*
                                      S2O82– + 2e− 2SO2−4 +2.07 [1]

                                      In terms of electrolysis, this table should be interpreted as follows

                                      oxidised species (often a cation) nearer the top of the table are more
                                      difficult to reduce than oxidised species further down. For example it
                                      is more difficult to reduce sodium ion to sodium metal than it is to
                                      reduce zinc ion to zinc metal.
                                      reduced species (often an anion) near the bottom of the table are more
                                      difficult to oxidise than reduced species higher up. For example it is
                                      more difficult to oxidise sulfate anions than it is to oxidise bromide
                                      anions.
                                      Using the Nernst equation the electrode potential can be calculated for
                                      a specific concentration of ions, temperature and the number of
                                      electrons involved. For pure water (pH 7):

                                      the electrode potential for the reduction producing hydrogen is −0.41 V
                                      the electrode potential for the oxidation producing oxygen is +0.82 V.

                                      *WHEW!!!!!!!*

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]








                                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                    • Jerry Jones
                                      Thank you for being so kind Carl!  Not too long my friend.  Good stuff for all.. God Bless.. Jerry.. - Jerry Jones My Coin Store:
                                      Message 18 of 20 , Oct 9, 2010
                                      • 0 Attachment
                                        Thank you for being so kind Carl!  Not too long my friend.  Good stuff for all.. God Bless.. Jerry..

                                        - Jerry Jones
                                        My Coin Store: http://www.AncientCoinStore.com
                                        My Blog: http://AncientPeddler.Blogspot.com

                                        --- On Sat, 10/9/10, Carl Zipfel <czipfel@...> wrote:


                                        From: Carl Zipfel <czipfel@...>
                                        Subject: RE: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....
                                        To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Date: Saturday, October 9, 2010, 8:47 AM


                                         



                                        The chemistry of this discussion has brought me out once again. So I apologize for the length of this short missive for in truth what is being talked about could, and does, fill a text book.

                                        Sodium Carbonate and Sodium Chloride are not bases, they are salts. Salts are the product of neutralization or the mixing of a base and an acid. In the case of Sodium Carbonate it was Sodium Hydroxide and Carbonic Acid. For Sodium Chloride it was Sodium Hydroxide and Hydrochloric Acid. Salts, when dissolved in water, can hydrolyze to produce a basic, an acidic, or a neutral solution based on the strength of the individual ions. In the case of Sodium Carbonate it will be basic since there is a preference to produce hydroxyl ions. Sodium Chloride solutions will be at, or near, neutral. And because Sodium Carbonate forms a weak base in solution it will react with an acid, such as vinegar, and it will fizz as it releases Carbon Dioxide.

                                        Some salts make better electrolytes than other because they make more electrons available. In theory, what you use to make the electrolyte should not matter since it is current flow that causes electrolysis. So watch the amount of current that you apply, more is not necessarily better. However, in practicality what you use does matter. The issue is un-removed residues. I don't know if thorough cleaning after electrolysis removes all residues, but washing (soaking) the cleaned coins is a must, preferably in distilled water. I fear that Sodium Chloride, or any Chloride for that matter, is problematic. In a moist environments residual chlorides can actively attack a coins surface on their owns (i.e. bronze disease).

                                        An electrolyte is a substance that contains free electrons that will allow electrical conductivity. Pure water is non-conductive as it contains no free electrons, however add a salt to the water and now it will be conductive because the salt, as dissolved ions, adds free electrons to conduct electricity. The water is now an electrolyte. Solids can act as electrolytes if there are free electrons. The level of conductivity is based on the number of electrons in solution. Therefore, not all salts are created equal.

                                        Faraday's 1st Law of Electrolysis has nothing to do with the separation of metals from other materials it sates that "The mass of a substance altered at an electrode during electrolysis is directly proportional to the quantity of electricity transferred at that electrode." It does however, relate to the deposition of materials (metals) on an electrode, this is called "electroplating". While this is interpreted to mean the separation of metals, in solution, to an electrode it should not be equated with the separation of encrustations, or oxidation products from a coins surface. At this point the electrochemistry gets very complicated. Let it suffice to say. That: (1) if the coin is the anode the process can, depending on the current flow, dissolve some metals off the surface. Note that I said some metals. (2) likewise, if the coin is the cathode the process can, depending on the current flow, add some metals onto the surface. Note that I said some metals.
                                        And (3) while water solution based electrolysis can, in some instances, break the bonds of some oxidation products, it can't do so for many other more stable compounds.

                                        In the process of electrolysis cleaning of coins, I believe, that a number of distinct and individual processes are involved, some of them chemical, and some of them physical. (a) some of the encrustations (dirt) may be dissolved but more than likely they simply fall off (the sludge at the bottom). (b) the action of the water loosens some of these materials and they fall off. (c) the weak bonds that hold the encrustations together may be broken allowing it to break-up into smaller particles and fall off, (d) oxidation products at the coin surface are dissolved allowing the rest of the materials to fall off. (e) an increase of temperature at points of high resistance within the encrustation may be causing the materials to break-up, and (f) the agitation of the off-gassing that occurs helps to break up the encrustations. Any, and all, of these are affected by the amount of current that is applied across the electrodes.

                                        Again sorry for the length,

                                        Carl

                                        -----Original Message-----
                                        From: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Dan Mancuso
                                        Sent: Saturday, October 09, 2010 12:20 AM
                                        To: CoinZappers@yahoogroups.com
                                        Cc: Jerry Jones
                                        Subject: Re: [CoinZappers] My electrolysis.....

                                        I know Jerry, you have said it before...
                                        > I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed with
                                        > sodium carbonate
                                        but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY?

                                        Also...
                                        > I use white vinegar as my stop bath.
                                        This might indicate that a STRONG Base (alkaline) was used as the
                                        electrolyte. Sodium Carbonate vs Sodium Chloride? as far as bases...
                                        not too dissimilar... although proper use of Sodium Chloride has always
                                        been the electrolyte of choice in many applications of electrolysis

                                        This is from Wikipedia and may be the basis of why you frown on "Salt"
                                        (although, you do not base it on the broad definition of "Salt")
                                        > An *electrolyte* : a substance containing free ions which are the
                                        > carriers of electric current in the electrolyte. If the ions are not
                                        > mobile, as in a solid salt then electrolysis cannot occur.
                                        The key word above is SOLID... and of course that will not work, neither
                                        would NaCO3 (that's sodium carbonate, no? if it is solid, no juice will
                                        flow, nothing will happen, they must be in solution.

                                        Something to consider:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > First law of electrolysis
                                        >
                                        > In 1832, Michael Faraday reported that the quantity of elements
                                        > separated by passing an electric current through a molten or
                                        > dissolved* salt *is proportional to the quantity of electric charge
                                        > passed through the circuit. This became the basis of the first law of
                                        > electrolysis
                                        >
                                        > Electrolysis is also used in the cleaning and preservation of old
                                        > artifacts. Because the process separates the non-metallic particles
                                        > from the metallic ones, * it is very useful for cleaning old coins*
                                        > and even larger objects.
                                        As I read on, separating the reason for the article (the creation of
                                        Hydrogen) is suggested that because ... well, it got more complicated
                                        than I cared to digest at the time... but as for the list of
                                        electrolyte materials, NaCL was on the list... Carbonate wasn't... but
                                        in the end, for the cleaning process, neither really mattered... but I
                                        got from it, because other "goodies" are produced during the
                                        electrolysis, it might be good idea to "change" the water from time to
                                        time...

                                        And to boot... after reading another article... it turns out, typical
                                        Tap Water is highly sufficient for separating metal and non-metal
                                        components with electrolysis.

                                        I dunno Jerry... In the whole thing, I was simply remembering
                                        Electrolysis from other operations of the past, and cleaning metal
                                        objects was done... and simple salt was what was used... IN VERY VERY
                                        VERY VERY VERY VERY small quantities.

                                        Putting coins in ACID when done.. bad idea... electrolysis does not
                                        mess with the metal. ACID DOES!... rinse well in tap water... dry with
                                        Lens (cleaning) Cloth

                                        These are the ones I thing I got for like a buck or two... they are
                                        fantastic... use a bit, then toss in with the laundry.. I have at least
                                        a dozen of these... (and a few others of even better quality I get when
                                        I go to the optometrist)

                                        I likely will mention this again, but I think this is time 3... so,
                                        maybe not... I listed a little of WHY... I hope you and the others can
                                        offer a why (or something similar)

                                        Gracias...
                                        Dan

                                        ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                                        ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.

                                        On 10/8/2010 9:00 PM, Jerry Jones wrote:
                                        >
                                        > Hi Dan! I use white vinegar as my stop bath. I have not found a
                                        > better electrolytic solution than one mixed with sodium carbonate..
                                        > God Bless.. Jerry..
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > --- On Fri, 10/8/10, Dan Mancuso <danm@...
                                        > <mailto:danm%40swcp.com>> wrote:
                                        >
                                        >
                                        > ANYTHING that happens to a coins after ANYTHING is done to it, to
                                        > CLEAN it, to RESTORE it, to CONSERVE it, TO ANYTHING it... is due to
                                        > SOMETHING (possibly ANYTHING) remaining on the surface of the
                                        > coin/metal. PERIOD.
                                        >
                                        > Solution.
                                        >
                                        > remove ANYTHING that remains on the coin after you do ANYTHING to it.
                                        > PERIOD.
                                        >
                                        > I have emphasized rinsing... ask a darkroom person how long a negative,
                                        > or a print, or a slide is WASHED after it is developed, fixed and
                                        > hypo'd... If I remember those days, it was really the longest step...
                                        > and I think in my darkroom, it was a three step process!!!!!!!! Then
                                        > the squeegie (for prints) then DRYING!!! (and that is a photo)
                                        >

                                        An extract from the table of standard electrode potentials is shown below.

                                        Half-reaction E° (V) Ref.
                                        Na+ + e− Na(s) −2.71 [1] * <-------------------------*
                                        Zn2+ + 2e− Zn(s) −0.7618 [2]
                                        2H+ + 2e− H2(g) ≡ 0
                                        Br2(aq) + 2e− 2Br− +1.0873 [2]
                                        O2(g) + 4H+ + 4e− 2H2O +1.23 [1]
                                        Cl2(g) + 2e− 2Cl− +1.36 [1] * <---------------------------*
                                        S2O82– + 2e− 2SO2−4 +2.07 [1]

                                        In terms of electrolysis, this table should be interpreted as follows

                                        oxidised species (often a cation) nearer the top of the table are more
                                        difficult to reduce than oxidised species further down. For example it
                                        is more difficult to reduce sodium ion to sodium metal than it is to
                                        reduce zinc ion to zinc metal.
                                        reduced species (often an anion) near the bottom of the table are more
                                        difficult to oxidise than reduced species higher up. For example it is
                                        more difficult to oxidise sulfate anions than it is to oxidise bromide
                                        anions.
                                        Using the Nernst equation the electrode potential can be calculated for
                                        a specific concentration of ions, temperature and the number of
                                        electrons involved. For pure water (pH 7):

                                        the electrode potential for the reduction producing hydrogen is −0.41 V
                                        the electrode potential for the oxidation producing oxygen is +0.82 V.

                                        *WHEW!!!!!!!*

                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                                        ------------------------------------

                                        Yahoo! Groups Links








                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • Dan Mancuso
                                        My original question was: I know Jerry, you have said it before... ... with sodium carbonate but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY?
                                        Message 19 of 20 , Oct 11, 2010
                                        • 0 Attachment
                                          My original question was:

                                          I know Jerry, you have said it before...

                                          > I have not found a better electrolytic solution than one mixed
                                          with sodium carbonate

                                          but, you missed the all important part of any conclusion.... WHY?

                                          _________________________________________________________

                                          and we get to this:

                                          pv*C* - poly-vinyl *CHLORIDE*...

                                          Green stuff... comes off with soap.

                                          green stuff on copper - PATINA (considered good and beautiful by copper
                                          lovers... what color is the Statue of Liberty, the Domes of most
                                          Basilicas... and what are they made of???)

                                          ?????????????????????????????????? (#4 Damp vs WET)

                                          About 4,130,000 results (0.17 seconds)


                                          Search Results

                                          1.


                                          /Bronze disease/! <http://www.collector-antiquities.com/89/>
                                          <http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/collector-antiquities.com?pip=true&premium=true&client_uid=626870039&client_ver=3.2.0.152&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=true&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&os_ver=6.1.0.0&ref=safesearch>

                                          /Bronze disease/ is a type of corrosion which gives antiquities
                                          collectors *...* /Bronze disease/ looks like a bright green or
                                          blue-green, fuzzy or powdery patch. *...*
                                          www.collector-antiquities.com/89/ - Cached
                                          <http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:gAsJ12DY104J:www.collector-antiquities.com/89/+bronze+disease&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us>
                                          - Similar

                                          2. [PDF]


                                          /Bronze Disease/
                                          <http://www.crescentcitycoinclub.org/seminars_and_programs/Bronze%20Disease.pdf>
                                          <http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/crescentcitycoinclub.org?pip=true&premium=true&client_uid=626870039&client_ver=3.2.0.152&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=true&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&os_ver=6.1.0.0&ref=safesearch>

                                          File Format: PDF/Adobe Acrobat - Quick View
                                          <http://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:xf0nBtEnDFUJ:www.crescentcitycoinclub.org/seminars_and_programs/Bronze%2520Disease.pdf+bronze+disease&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEEShUJPdC1s4UCOgaYdsRdj6yNZJ2x7jgGFZsSNO8eQx9t6CgeZFOEXiNidN9q5uembOlRg4kxdb52-I4ayjr_K76MRxoSkwVTNi5RoW2BFcyIqQfw5TPr9QCnlBtwkhiZlIfWK9L&sig=AHIEtbRF_Z6yIn8uH0S_vmMzw3OtHNe7eQ>
                                          /Bronze Disease/: Understanding, Curing and Preventative Treatment
                                          *...* ♦/Bronze/ “/disease/” is a condition in which the coin
                                          produces acid *...*
                                          www.crescentcitycoinclub.org/seminars.../*Bronze*%20*Disease*.pdf
                                          - Similar
                                          3.


                                          /Bronze Disease/
                                          <http://tomross.ancients.info/Electrolysis/Cleaning/bronze_disease.htm>
                                          <http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/ancients.info?pip=true&premium=true&client_uid=626870039&client_ver=3.2.0.152&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=true&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&os_ver=6.1.0.0&ref=safesearch>

                                          /Bronze Disease/ [BD] is to bronze metals, what rust is to iron
                                          based metals. The matrix of copper and tin that forms bronze is
                                          attacked by hydrochloric acid *...*
                                          tomross.ancients.info/Electrolysis/.../*bronze*_*disease*.htm -
                                          Cached
                                          <http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:ekkZ12Ode4UJ:tomross.ancients.info/Electrolysis/Cleaning/bronze_disease.htm+bronze+disease&cd=3&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us>
                                          - Similar
                                          4.


                                          Cleaning /Bronze/ FAQs | DoItYourself.com
                                          <http://www.doityourself.com/stry/bronze>
                                          <http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/doityourself.com?pip=true&premium=true&client_uid=626870039&client_ver=3.2.0.152&client_type=IEPlugin&suite=true&aff_id=0&locale=en_us&os_ver=6.1.0.0&ref=safesearch>

                                          "/Bronze disease/" is one of the most serious hazards of bronze.
                                          This disease, caused when chlorides and oxygen combine in a damp
                                          environment, also attacks *...*
                                          www.doityourself.com › ... › Metal Cleaning - Cached
                                          <http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:Ghb3yQx78pEJ:www.doityourself.com/stry/bronze+bronze+disease&cd=4&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us>
                                          - Similar

                                          4,129,996 left - Google it your danged self!!! DAMP was what i was
                                          looking for, when everyone else says WET!!! sheesh.

                                          ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                                          ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.


                                          On 10/9/2010 3:45 PM, Jerry Jones wrote:
                                          >
                                          > Right on Bob! Will possibly cause bronze disease too.. God Bless..
                                          > Jerry..
                                          >
                                          > - Jerry Jones
                                          >
                                          > From: Bob Lilja <xpiacok@... <mailto:xpiacok%40yahoo.com>>
                                          > Date: Friday, October 8, 2010, 11:45 PM
                                          >
                                          > It should be noted that electrolysis of salt, sodium
                                          > chloride, produces gas
                                          > chlorine. If this is done in an enclosed space it can be dangerous.
                                          > Commercialy,
                                          > caustic soda and gas chlorine are manufactured by electrolysis of brine.
                                          >
                                          _*you do not perform electrolysis ON salt... you perform it WITH salt,
                                          in water, and what comes out is OXYGEN and HYDROGEN.*_
                                          *I
                                          LOVE
                                          IT























                                          *
                                          *because*
                                          *that's why.*
                                          *
                                          *


                                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                        • Dan Mancuso
                                          ... I just have to address this ONE FINAL TIME.... as it is the cause of almost all problems in coin cleaning... Chemistry, Physics, Reactions and the like
                                          Message 20 of 20 , Oct 11, 2010
                                          • 0 Attachment
                                            > I don't know if thorough cleaning after electrolysis removes all
                                            > residues, but washing (soaking) the cleaned coins is a must,
                                            > preferably in distilled water.

                                            I just have to address this ONE FINAL TIME.... as it is the cause of
                                            almost all problems in coin cleaning... Chemistry, Physics, Reactions
                                            and the like removed... ...in the end, I think I have come up with an
                                            explanation, even your mother will agree with...

                                            Too often I see this, or something like it:

                                            "I don't know if thorough cleaning after "PROCESS" removes all residues,
                                            but washing (soaking) the cleaned coins is a must, preferably in
                                            distilled water."

                                            Washing (soaking) are two different things!!!

                                            SOAKING is something you mother did BEFORE washing... because soaking
                                            helped loosen dried on materials. Soaking does LITTLE more than that.

                                            AFTER the soaking, WASHING can and should occur... and immediately
                                            [IMMEDIATELY] after, DRYING must occur, WASHING should remove EVERYTHING
                                            you do not want to remain... (the dirt on the dishes) Washing should
                                            not remove the "paint" on the dishes (that you want to remain)

                                            [ P A I N T ///\\\ P A I N - T ///\\\ P A . I N <- T ///\\\ P A T I N
                                            ///\\\ P A T I N + A ///\\\ P A T I N A] = PATINA

                                            After I take a shower, I could go soak in the hot tub, but most everyone
                                            would agree, I BETTER already be completely CLEANED BEFORE I soak,
                                            because they do not want me SOAKING in the hot tub to get CLEANER!...
                                            Usually, I grab a towel and dry off (and I think i confess, that towel
                                            might remove stuff the shower could have missed (OTHERWISE, I would not
                                            have to wash the towel... and in fact, I would not have to wash the eye
                                            lens cloths I use to dry the coins after washing,.. (I have been asked
                                            by people what i use to clean coins... and this is a real answer, I use
                                            Formula 409!!! - often after washing a coin... it will "feel funny"
                                            [residuals I think I heard] I WILL use formula 409 to continue the
                                            washing after the "PROCESS" |{electrolysis/chemical dip?/soak/sand
                                            blasting/etc...}| the 409 is amazing in removing residuals (in the end,
                                            I have "STUFF" that works even better than formula 409 in some more
                                            stubborn cases)

                                            All that the above means is... sometimes the first washing does not
                                            completely clean the body (COIN) and addition washing for what remains,
                                            or perhaps what was created by mixing Mayonnaise that dripped off the
                                            hot dog, and relish from the chocolate cake, mixed in the water where
                                            the electrocution was happening and created Cocoa Relonnaise which
                                            cannot be dissolved in distilled water... so, I need Formula Fantastik
                                            to get rid of that...

                                            and All that the above means is... Coin cleaning is NOT one process...
                                            knowing what worked this time is useful, but you cannot count on it to
                                            work the next time... let alone ALL the time, which is what most people
                                            want me to divulge in one sentence when they ask me: What do you use to
                                            clean your coins...? - I think I just came up with a one word answer
                                            that will work... except, it is two words... "know how" (I suppose I
                                            could say "knowledge" but that word scares many people... they say, I
                                            went to school, I have that already... what do YOU use to clean you
                                            coins... COME ON... TELL ME!!!! then I say... OK, I use Formula 409
                                            and walk away.

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                                            soaking the cleaned coins is a must, preferably in distilled water.
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                                            "An electrolyte is a substance that allows electrolysis to occur
                                            (whatever you use it for)"

                                            The most prominent use of electrolysis is to generate Hydrogen

                                            It can also clean coins.

                                            ----------

                                            Carl...

                                            Thank you for attempting to clarify things I decided not to try to
                                            clarify... I think, but don't remember*, secidinggnidecis it was
                                            getting more complicated than trying to tie a pickle around a tree stump
                                            to grow wooden caterpillars to sell at the flea market. (and then I
                                            think I went to bed) [*I don't know if...]

                                            ***This Email may contain errors I was not aware of when typed.
                                            ***As a result, my message may not say what I originally meant.

                                            > I don't know if thorough cleaning after electrolysis removes all
                                            > residues, but washing (soaking) the cleaned coins is a must,
                                            > preferably in distilled water.


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