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Re: St Gregory, Sudbury

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  • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
    Happy New Year Simon, and Simon Jenkins too if he s reading. OK, but I m still trying to gets things clear. Considering its population Sudbury had relatively
    Message 1 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
      Happy New Year Simon,
      and Simon Jenkins too if he's reading.


      OK, but I'm still trying to gets things clear.


      Considering its population Sudbury had relatively few parishes: two.
      When you look at the relation between population and number of
      parishes in other towns, eg Ipswich, Norwich, Leicester, York,
      Bristol, Exeter etc you would expect Sudbury to have had more than
      two parishes.

      Therefore it is quite natural that one of Sudbury's two parishes had
      a team of priests rather than just one parish priest.


      Is that valid? It seems plausible to me, but I'm not an expert.

      Greetings
      Bart
    • marion
      ... How do you know? I would think he keeps it to himself ;-) Bored and wet, Marion.
      Message 2 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
        > Simon Jenkins is a wanker.

        How do you know? I would think he keeps it to himself ;-)

        Bored and wet,
        Marion.
      • Simon
        I think there is a difference between Sudbury and the other places you mention. Firstly, Sudbury WAS smaller - Ipswich was one of the five biggest towns in
        Message 3 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
          I think there is a difference between Sudbury and the other places you mention. Firstly, Sudbury WAS smaller - Ipswich was one of the five biggest towns in medieval England (it probably doesn't make the top 40 today). Secondly, Sudbury's great age of prosperity and population growth was the later middle ages, say from the 14th century onwards. Parishes tend to be based on very early divisions, almost always Saxon ones - Ipswich was probably the largest settlement in England in early Saxon times, and its parish system probably reflects this. Although it has fewer medieval churches than Norwich, Bristol or York, it is worth noting that 12 of them are right in the town centre, within a few hundred yards of each other (a 13th is the former village parish church of Whitton, long-since subsumed by suburbia).

          And several of the Ipswich churches WERE supported by colleges of priests - St Margaret and St Peter, for instance.


          www.simonknott.com
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          ----- Original Message -----
          From: stolzel2 <Bart150@...>
          To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 10:14 AM
          Subject: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


          Happy New Year Simon,
          and Simon Jenkins too if he's reading.


          OK, but I'm still trying to gets things clear.


          Considering its population Sudbury had relatively few parishes: two.
          When you look at the relation between population and number of
          parishes in other towns, eg Ipswich, Norwich, Leicester, York,
          Bristol, Exeter etc you would expect Sudbury to have had more than
          two parishes.

          Therefore it is quite natural that one of Sudbury's two parishes had
          a team of priests rather than just one parish priest.


          Is that valid? It seems plausible to me, but I'm not an expert.

          Greetings
          Bart




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        • Simon
          Thank you, Les. I shall know where to go if I want a chantry Mass said in Texas. S www.simonknott.com ************************* This message scanned by Norton
          Message 4 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
            Thank you, Les. I shall know where to go if I want a chantry Mass said in Texas.

            S


            www.simonknott.com
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Les and Win Center
            To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 5:38 AM
            Subject: Re: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


            Nor are they in the modern, post-reformation church. At least not in ours.---les (Episcopal)
            Ministering to the Faithful and Praying for the Dead are not separable in the pre-Reformation English Church.


            Happy New Year, everybody!

            Simon


            www.simonknott.com
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            ----- Original Message -----
            From: stolzel2 <Bart150@...>
            To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 3:41 PM
            Subject: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


            Aha, so the picture I've got now is this:

            The canons had to spend a bit of time praying for the dead but they
            spent most of their time ministering to the faithful like parish
            priests.

            Whereas Ipswich had a dozen small parishes, most of Sudbury was all
            in one big parish, St Gregory's. That is why there was a whole team
            of priests there.

            The stuff in Jenkins about a college in the sense of a school is
            nonsense.

            Is the above right?

            Bart




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          • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
            Simon I know Sudbury was smaller than Ipswich etc. That s why I talked of the proportion of parishes to population, and not of the absolute number of parishes.
            Message 5 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
              Simon

              I know Sudbury was smaller than Ipswich etc. That's why I talked of
              the proportion of parishes to population, and not of the absolute
              number of parishes.

              But I really find that your latest answer brings a great shaft of
              light. Surely the truth is like this:

              1 Parish boundaries were formed in Saxon times.
              2 Shifts of population occurred over the centuries, but there was a
              reluctance to change parish boundaries.
              3 Therefore, as time went on, some parishes became well above average
              size, and entailed excessive work for the parish priest.
              4 This could be tackled in two main ways: Either redraw parish
              boundaries, to create a new parish, and build a new church for it. Or
              don't change the boundaries but upgrade a parish church to collegiate
              status, so that there were extra priests to serve that parish.
              5 Sudbury St Gregory is an example of the collegiate solution.

              This sounds good to me, Simon. What do you say?

              Bart
            • Simon
              With the caveat that nothing is ever that simple, then I agree ;-) Simon www.simonknott.com ************************* This message scanned by Norton 2002 ...
              Message 6 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
                With the caveat that nothing is ever that simple, then I agree ;-)

                Simon




                www.simonknott.com
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                ----- Original Message -----
                From: stolzel2 <Bart150@...>
                To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 1:49 PM
                Subject: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


                Simon

                I know Sudbury was smaller than Ipswich etc. That's why I talked of
                the proportion of parishes to population, and not of the absolute
                number of parishes.

                But I really find that your latest answer brings a great shaft of
                light. Surely the truth is like this:

                1 Parish boundaries were formed in Saxon times.
                2 Shifts of population occurred over the centuries, but there was a
                reluctance to change parish boundaries.
                3 Therefore, as time went on, some parishes became well above average
                size, and entailed excessive work for the parish priest.
                4 This could be tackled in two main ways: Either redraw parish
                boundaries, to create a new parish, and build a new church for it. Or
                don't change the boundaries but upgrade a parish church to collegiate
                status, so that there were extra priests to serve that parish.
                5 Sudbury St Gregory is an example of the collegiate solution.

                This sounds good to me, Simon. What do you say?

                Bart





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              • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
                Righty ho Simon Here s suggestions for further knowledge generation - but only if you think it would add value to your own site. Is it possible to explain some
                Message 7 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
                  Righty ho Simon

                  Here's suggestions for further knowledge generation - but only if you
                  think it would add value to your own site.

                  Is it possible to explain some of the history of the Ipswich churches
                  according to that basic model? eg church X was upgraded to collegiate
                  in the 14c because its parish population had grown a lot

                  Can we relate the big new wool churches to that model?
                  eg big new church Y was built in conjunction with a change of parish
                  boundaries
                  eg big new church Z was built for no real practical reason, because
                  the previous church on the site was perfectly OK and the parish size
                  was not specially big.

                  Just ideas
                  Bart
                • Les and Win Center
                  If you come to Texas, be sure and let me know. Surely some church will be doing a regular chantry mass, and I will chauffer you around until we find
                  Message 8 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
                    If you come to Texas, be sure and let me know. Surely some church will be doing a regular chantry mass, and I will chauffer you around until we find it.---Les
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Simon
                    To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 7:19 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


                    Thank you, Les. I shall know where to go if I want a chantry Mass said in Texas.

                    S


                    www.simonknott.com
                    *************************
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Les and Win Center
                    To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, January 01, 2003 5:38 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


                    Nor are they in the modern, post-reformation church. At least not in ours.---les (Episcopal)
                    Ministering to the Faithful and Praying for the Dead are not separable in the pre-Reformation English Church.


                    Happy New Year, everybody!

                    Simon


                    www.simonknott.com
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                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: stolzel2 <Bart150@...>
                    To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 3:41 PM
                    Subject: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


                    Aha, so the picture I've got now is this:

                    The canons had to spend a bit of time praying for the dead but they
                    spent most of their time ministering to the faithful like parish
                    priests.

                    Whereas Ipswich had a dozen small parishes, most of Sudbury was all
                    in one big parish, St Gregory's. That is why there was a whole team
                    of priests there.

                    The stuff in Jenkins about a college in the sense of a school is
                    nonsense.

                    Is the above right?

                    Bart




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                  • John Vigar <john@johnevigar.com>
                    I do think we must be very careful not to put too great an emphasis on links between the foundation of a collegiate church and changes in population. After all
                    Message 9 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
                      I do think we must be very careful not to put too great an emphasis
                      on links between the foundation of a collegiate church and changes in
                      population.
                      After all the heyday of the collegiate church was AFTER the Black
                      Death when the population across the country had declined
                      considerably.
                      We should also bear in mind that many collegiate churches were in
                      rural areas - they were not all in populous areas.

                      Somewhere like Sudbury had one because it was lucky enough to have
                      produced an Archbishop who wanted to add something to the town of his
                      birth. The same happened in my local town of Maidstone where a later
                      Archbishop (William Courtenay) founded a collegiate church in the
                      town of which he was Lord of the Manor. It is far more to do with
                      personalities than it is to do with boundaries or population changes.

                      John V.
                    • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
                      Thanks John. I m not an expert. I just ask questions and try and analyse the answers. Leaving aside why a certain collegiate church was founded, it seems clear
                      Message 10 of 28 , Jan 1, 2003
                        Thanks John. I'm not an expert. I just ask questions and try and
                        analyse the answers.


                        Leaving aside why a certain collegiate church was founded, it seems
                        clear that in at least some collegiate churches the priests in fact
                        spent a lot of their time ministering to an exceptionally large
                        parish (eg St Gregory, Sudbury) or a group of parishes (my guidebook
                        to Howden, E Yorks)

                        It also seems clear that this was not true of all collegiate
                        churches. After searching the web for information on Fotheringhay,
                        Northants I find that there was a big college of priests there
                        devoted to praying for the Dukes of York - not for parish work. What
                        else they did, if anything, I don't know. (I've found a couple of
                        tantalising hints that some kind of school was a big feature).


                        Can you live with the above?

                        Bart
                      • John Vigar <john@johnevigar.com>
                        ... What ... I would be happy if we agreed that collegiate foundations were primarily established to provide a central place for masses for the dead, and that
                        Message 11 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                          > It also seems clear that this was not true of all collegiate
                          > churches. After searching the web for information on Fotheringhay,
                          > Northants I find that there was a big college of priests there
                          > devoted to praying for the Dukes of York - not for parish work.
                          What
                          > else they did, if anything, I don't know. (I've found a couple of
                          > tantalising hints that some kind of school was a big feature).


                          I would be happy if we agreed that collegiate foundations were
                          primarily established to provide a central place for masses for the
                          dead, and that there is evidence that a few collegiate foundations
                          additionally provided some form of educational facility. But I do
                          think that in most instances the latter aspect is more a figment of
                          the antiquarians imagination than based on any documentary evidence
                          (at least amongst those collegiate foundations that I have visited).

                          Best wishes
                          John V.
                        • Simon
                          I agree with John. There s a danger in getting hooked on the idea that the role of a Priest and his parish business in pre-Reformation England was much like
                          Message 12 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                            I agree with John. There's a danger in getting hooked on the idea that the role of a Priest and his 'parish business' in pre-Reformation England was much like that of a CofE Minister nowadays. Saying Masses for the dead was one of the main parts of the work of the pre-Reformation church, not just a sideline away from 'normal' business. For the priests of Fotheringay, praying for the Dukes of York WAS parish work...

                            Simon


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                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: John Vigar <john@...>
                            To: Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, January 03, 2003 3:40 PM
                            Subject: [Churchcrawling] Re: St Gregory, Sudbury


                            > It also seems clear that this was not true of all collegiate
                            > churches. After searching the web for information on Fotheringhay,
                            > Northants I find that there was a big college of priests there
                            > devoted to praying for the Dukes of York - not for parish work.
                            What
                            > else they did, if anything, I don't know. (I've found a couple of
                            > tantalising hints that some kind of school was a big feature).


                            I would be happy if we agreed that collegiate foundations were
                            primarily established to provide a central place for masses for the
                            dead, and that there is evidence that a few collegiate foundations
                            additionally provided some form of educational facility. But I do
                            think that in most instances the latter aspect is more a figment of
                            the antiquarians imagination than based on any documentary evidence
                            (at least amongst those collegiate foundations that I have visited).

                            Best wishes
                            John V.


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                          • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
                            ... Sorry John, but when I go through my collection of guidebooks of churches I have visited that isn t what I find. There are: 1 Churches called collegiate,
                            Message 13 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                              > I would be happy if we agreed that collegiate foundations were
                              > primarily established to provide a central place for masses for the
                              > dead,

                              Sorry John, but when I go through my collection of guidebooks of
                              churches I have visited that isn't what I find.
                              There are:

                              1 Churches called collegiate, whose priests had no responsibility at
                              all for any parish, and who spent their time mainly praying for the
                              rich dead founders:
                              - Fotheringhay
                              - St George's, Windsor

                              2 Churches called collegiate, whose priests had responsibility for a
                              large parish or group of parishes, where there is no mention of
                              spending substantial time praying for any rich dead founders:
                              - Manchester (now Cathedral)
                              - Howden Minster
                              - Beverley Minster
                              - Southwell Minster
                              - Ripon Minster
                              - Crediton (I think)

                              This suggests to me that these are two quite different varieties of
                              collegiate church. What do you say?

                              Best wishes
                              Bart
                            • John Vigar <john@johnevigar.com>
                              ... Bart, What you find in guidebooks is only as good as the knowledge of those who wrote them at the time (as the author of many dozens of church guides I am
                              Message 14 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                                --- In Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com, "stolzel2 <Bart150@h...>"
                                <Bart150@h...> wrote:

                                > Sorry John, but when I go through my collection of guidebooks of
                                > churches I have visited that isn't what I find.

                                Bart,

                                What you find in guidebooks is only as good as the knowledge of those
                                who wrote them at the time (as the author of many dozens of church
                                guides I am only too aware of the mistakes I made when I was young!).

                                One of the problems with regard to this current topic is the fact
                                that these buildings now belong to the Church of England - a broad
                                church where the concept of masses for the dead is anathema in some
                                quarters.

                                My understanding is still that all collegiate foundations were
                                founded with one primary purpose, and that education - where it
                                played a part - was a later, secondary, function.

                                I would again refer you to the Cook book which is still the best on
                                the subject.

                                John V.
                              • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
                                Sorry, John, that s just not credible. Bart
                                Message 15 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                                  Sorry, John, that's just not credible.
                                  Bart
                                • Doctor Digi <docdigi@digiatlas.net>
                                  ... Why not. dd
                                  Message 16 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                                    --- In Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com, "stolzel2 <Bart150@h...>"
                                    <Bart150@h...> wrote:
                                    > Sorry, John, that's just not credible.
                                    > Bart

                                    Why not.

                                    dd
                                  • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
                                    ... Look, I ve got a whole heap of information in front of me about the famous collegiate churches I already mentioned - all from different sources giving
                                    Message 17 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                                      --- In Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com, "Doctor Digi <docdigi@d...>"
                                      <docdigi@d...> wrote:
                                      > --- In Churchcrawling@yahoogroups.com, "stolzel2 <Bart150@h...>"
                                      > <Bart150@h...> wrote:
                                      > > Sorry, John, that's just not credible.
                                      > > Bart
                                      >
                                      > Why not.
                                      >
                                      > dd

                                      Look, I've got a whole heap of information in front of me about the
                                      famous collegiate churches I already mentioned - all from different
                                      sources giving details about how and why these churches were founded
                                      and what their constitutions were.

                                      It's just not credible to say - ignore it all; it's all wrong.

                                      I'm asked to believe that when the author of the guidebook on Howden,
                                      for example, explains how there were six canons, each responsible for
                                      a different parish, well that's just a fantasy. No, the six canons
                                      really spent all their time praying for the soul of some guy, who
                                      isn't named, who endowed the place,
                                      Same with Beverley.
                                      Same with Manchester.
                                      Same with Southwell.
                                      Same with Ripon.
                                      All the guidebooks completely wrong.

                                      No, I don't find that credible.
                                    • pmdraper10@aol.com
                                      Well as John V has said you could always read G.H.Cook s English Collegiate Churches ;-) Unfortunately this is one book by Cook I do not own- yet! Knowles and
                                      Message 18 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                                        Well as John V has said you could always read G.H.Cook's English Collegiate
                                        Churches ;-) Unfortunately this is one book by Cook I do not own- yet!
                                        Knowles and Hadcock write about collegiate foundations too, pointing out
                                        three different types of which all that you have mentioned fall into.
                                        1. Small foundations, often pre-Conquest with four or less prebendaries who
                                        were usually but not always resident, and providing vicars to outlying
                                        parishes from which they received tithes.
                                        2. Larger houses where prebendaries by the late C13 were often only resident
                                        in the house/college for two or three months a year. Large numbers performed
                                        no religious function whatsoever (offices or cure of souls) - an abuse of
                                        title, leading to plurality, e.g. an abbot or bishop or dean may hold the
                                        titular office of dean or provost at a collegiate church. Vicars were
                                        employed to fill the gaps. In the later middle ages only 25% of the
                                        prebendaries actually were in residence at any time. These larger coleges
                                        usually had a later grammar school or chorister school attached to it.
                                        3. Later foundations C14 or C16, where priests and chantry priests were able
                                        to live together, usually small.

                                        this is a condensed version of several pages of explanation. It is obviously
                                        a more complicated situation with no easy answer. E.g. Chorister Schools
                                        included not only boys but acolytes, sacristans and vergers too.

                                        Best wishes
                                        Phil
                                        Bristol UK
                                        Visit my Church Architecture Website at www.churchcrawler.co.uk
                                        List-owner of ChurchCrawling and churchpictures@yahoogroups.com


                                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                      • stolzel2 <Bart150@hotmail.com>
                                        Phil That seems to correspond pretty well with what I said in messages 17845 and 17861, and thus with the guidebooks of the most famous collegiate churches.
                                        Message 19 of 28 , Jan 3, 2003
                                          Phil

                                          That seems to correspond pretty well with what I said in messages
                                          17845 and 17861, and thus with the guidebooks of the most famous
                                          collegiate churches.

                                          Bart
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