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Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

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  • Peter Silverstone
    Steve, In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that
    Message 1 of 11 , Oct 31, 2011
      Steve,
      In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

      Peter


      From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
      To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
      Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
      Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

       
      Others,

      John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

      Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

      What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

      Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

      Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
      http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

      Steve K.



    • Sbkidde@aol.com
      Peter,   All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we
      Message 2 of 11 , Nov 1, 2011
        Peter,
         
        All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. The absence of solid and liquid matter is space, but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident.
         
        Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
         
        Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness.
         
        Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
         
        Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists.
         
        Steve K.


        -----Original Message-----
        From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
        To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
        Sent: Tue, Nov 1, 2011 1:31 pm
        Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

         
        Steve,
        In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

        Peter


        From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
        To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
        Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

         
        Others,

        John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

        Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

        What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

        Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

        Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
        http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

        Steve K.



      • Sbkidde@aol.com
        Dave,   The investigators interview people. They investigate the claims the people make with recording equipment, some of which has measurement graphics.
        Message 3 of 11 , Nov 1, 2011
          Dave,
           
          The investigators interview people. They investigate the claims the people make with recording equipment, some of which has measurement graphics. Sometimes they record things that verify the claims. Often enough, there is a scientific explanation for the reports of haunting. There are times when they don't know what it is that they are observing and recording. Almost invariably, a historical explanation for the haunting is presented.
           
          I have experienced strange things that seemed to be specific to the location. Investigation often led to something interesting about the history of the place.
           
          It is an interesting show IMO.
           
          Steve K.


          -----Original Message-----
          From: Brother Dave <truthist@...>
          To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
          Sent: Mon, Oct 31, 2011 2:38 pm
          Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

           
          Steve and all,

          Personality and Spirit are the highest realities -- super-super Substance; soul is a lower reality -- super substance -- but much higher than physical energy-matter which is the most weak, vaporous, shadowy substance.  If you greatly magnify our physical matter, you will see that the atoms are tiny specks in mostly vast empty space. Physical matter is a dim shadow of Eternal Spirit and Eternal Patterns of Reality

          Ghosts and fallen angels are not real. Humans on earth start out here with their first life and never return back here in this age. So "reincarnation", "ghost returns" and "zombies" are not allowed. All of the "science detection equipment" on those TV "ghost hunting" shows are purely fake. "Casper the friendly ghost" (cartoon) is also fake.

          So, people hunting for ghosts don't even have a ghost of a chance ! Ha ha


          Peace and progress in Spirit and in Father-Son Truth,

          Brother Dave
          Each Saturday & Sunday 3PM CDT live internet radio show
          All past shows are archived there to play.
          PURE: Positive! Universal! Revealing! Enthusiastic! CHRISTIANS LED BY JESUS
          Gospel enlarging website, proclaiming worldwide the True Religion
          OF JESUS and ABOUT JESUS and IN JESUS
          Our large Christian-Philosophy Yahoo Group

          Come learn and share in one or all !




          From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
          To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, October 31, 2011 10:16:59 AM
          Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

           
          Others,

          John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

          Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

          What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

          Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

          Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
          http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

          Steve K.

        • Peter Silverstone
          Steve, you said, All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn
          Message 4 of 11 , Nov 1, 2011
            Steve, you said,

            All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. ( I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a  quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One)
             
            The absence of solid and liquid matter is space,( There is no such a thing as “solidity” this is a generation of the mind. Solidity is the repulsive force of electron that exists between tow object due to sameness of the forces) of  but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident. The mind, is the organ of perception)
             
            Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. ( God as a trinity is a mystery. He is still unknown)  It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
             
            Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. ( We are God, to the extent that we are His children)  We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness. ( Consciousness is divine. I, AM, is the divine in you)
             
            Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
             
            Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists. ( There were a time when Christians believed that the world was flat. That the earth is the center of the universe. And that everything moves around the earth. They not longer believe so, thanks to science.)

            Peter

            From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
            To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 2:17 AM
            Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

             
            Peter,
             
            All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. The absence of solid and liquid matter is space, but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident.
             
            Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
             
            Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness.
             
            Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
             
            Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists.
             
            Steve K.


            -----Original Message-----
            From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
            To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
            Sent: Tue, Nov 1, 2011 1:31 pm
            Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

             
            Steve,
            In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

            Peter


            From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
            To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
            Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

             
            Others,

            John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

            Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

            What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

            Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

            Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
            http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

            Steve K.





          • Sbkidde@aol.com
            Pete,   You wrote: I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a quantum
            Message 5 of 11 , Nov 3, 2011
              Pete,
               
              You wrote: I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One.
               
              ===============
               
              Your saying it doesn't make it so. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. 
               
              Our senses are not perfect measures of truth, but sensation is something that is common to humanity. It is the way that the world outside ourselves is perceived. The world outside ourselves is a shared reality.
               
              What is reality? It is not just a concept. The concept is a reference to all that exists. It is used however to refer to that which can be observed by more than one person.
               
              Science is a body of knowledge concerned with the operations of reality. The use of science to promote a pantheistic metaphysic is misguided. Why? As I have already noted, pantheism overgeneralizes. Accuracy in generalization and specification is a goal in science. It is not the goal of pantheism. Thus, pantheistic metaphysics undermines science. (Anti-religious science is not scientific either. The eradication of religion does serve the objectivity of the scientific community, because it is discriminatory.)
               
              What concern does the "All is One" advocate have with the particular operations of specific phenomena? Not much. It is just another loop back to the "All is One" belief.
               
              There are physical and social boundaries as well as limitation to sensory perception. Experiments are designed to reveal the unseen cause.
               
              The  belief that the world was flat was not christian. It was the misguided belief of dictatorship in the state religion. The dictatorship wanted to dictate the terms of reality to the citizens of the state as members of religion. Dictating terms made them feel like they controlled reality. They believed that they had "power over" others.
               
              The supporters of dictatorship claimed to be christians, but like the "All is One" advocate, religion was merely the means to the end of controlling the perceptions of others. Thus, people like Galileo who used evidence to determine that the earth revolves around the sun were persecuted as heretics to the belief that everything revolves around the earth.
               
              The "science" documented in the bible was posited in an effort to improve upon the science of imperial polytheism. Imperial polytheism was psycho-social, but it wasn't very scientific. It was replaced by monotheism. While imperial monotheism expanded upon the monarchical, it was more limited than the international. Scientific standards are international now. Nationalism is also international insofar as it is concerned with global dynamics.
               
              Nationalism that champions human rights promotes freedom of religion as protected.  This kind of nationalism is not anti-thetical to the Judeo-Christian ethic. It encourages Judaism, Christianity, Islam and any other religion to teach ethics to their membership as citizens of the state.
               
              The law has been established to protect the people of the state. It is not a tool for the abuse of majority rule. It is not the special privlege of the largest social group in the state. It is the equalizer designed to protect and serve the largest majority: all the law abiding citizens of the state.
               
              The current "Occupy" movement is a testimony to the fact that freedom of assembly and speech was established so those who have been disadvantaged by state policy can speak out and be heard.  It is lasting as long as it is because many are unemployed and homeless. They have no other legal choice than to protest the policy that mathematically guaranteed that many productive citizens would be released from work and evicted from their homes in the name of greed.
               
              The disproportionate advantage afforded to the wealthiest needs to be changed. Their taxes have to be increased in order to affect economic correction.
               
              Steve K.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
              To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 11:28 am
              Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

               
              Steve, you said,

              All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. ( I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a  quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One)
               
              The absence of solid and liquid matter is space,( There is no such a thing as “solidity” this is a generation of the mind. Solidity is the repulsive force of electron that exists between tow object due to sameness of the forces) of  but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident. The mind, is the organ of perception)
               
              Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. ( God as a trinity is a mystery. He is still unknown)  It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
               
              Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. ( We are God, to the extent that we are His children)  We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness. ( Consciousness is divine. I, AM, is the divine in you)
               
              Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
               
              Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists. ( There were a time when Christians believed that the world was flat. That the earth is the center of the universe. And that everything moves around the earth. They not longer believe so, thanks to science.)

              Peter

              From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
              To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 2:17 AM
              Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

               
              Peter,
               
              All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. The absence of solid and liquid matter is space, but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident.
               
              Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
               
              Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness.
               
              Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
               
              Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists.
               
              Steve K.


              -----Original Message-----
              From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
              To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tue, Nov 1, 2011 1:31 pm
              Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

               
              Steve,
              In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

              Peter


              From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
              To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
              Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

               
              Others,

              John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

              Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

              What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

              Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

              Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
              http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

              Steve K.





            • Peter Silverstone
              Steve you wrote:   “. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that exists (by not existing) in reality. 
              Message 6 of 11 , Nov 3, 2011
                Steve you wrote:
                 
                “. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. “
                 
                Steve, from Einstein’s  theory of relativity, we understand that matter and energy are interchangeable. Why, because matter, is latent energy. In that regard, whether a “thing” is “solid” “liquid” or “gaseous” its only differentiated by atomic number, and how they bond. In quantum field theory, science tells us that subatomic particle are not exactly particles. They are  merely a combination of energy and law, resulting to relations, and correlations, which manifest multifaceted potentialities, that appear as “subatomic particle”  But these “particle” are not things. Its just energy and law.
                 
                So, if for example you were reduced to subatomic size, and you retained your consciousness, you would not see “things” You would not see solid, liquid, or gaseous “things” Rather, what you would see, are swirling cloud of energy, differentiated by the bonding of energy and law, and what it manifests.
                 
                When it comes to consciousness, this is an interactive activity of the mind. Its an expression and experience of the mind, which appear as “reality” Reality is a creation of the mind. Its not something that exists on itself. As you have well put, “solidity is evident to the sense of touch” But then, ask yourself, what is this sense of touch? Is its not an acknowledgement of the mind, an experience of the mind, to existence of the phenomenon of a reality out there, that generates an expression, which the mind experiences as “touch”?
                 
                So, you see, you cannot separate reality from the mind, because, reality is the creation of the mind.
                 
                Peter


                From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 1:13 AM
                Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                 
                Pete,
                 
                You wrote: I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One.
                 
                ===============
                 
                Your saying it doesn't make it so. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. 
                 
                Our senses are not perfect measures of truth, but sensation is something that is common to humanity. It is the way that the world outside ourselves is perceived. The world outside ourselves is a shared reality.
                 
                What is reality? It is not just a concept. The concept is a reference to all that exists. It is used however to refer to that which can be observed by more than one person.
                 
                Science is a body of knowledge concerned with the operations of reality. The use of science to promote a pantheistic metaphysic is misguided. Why? As I have already noted, pantheism overgeneralizes. Accuracy in generalization and specification is a goal in science. It is not the goal of pantheism. Thus, pantheistic metaphysics undermines science. (Anti-religious science is not scientific either. The eradication of religion does serve the objectivity of the scientific community, because it is discriminatory.)
                 
                What concern does the "All is One" advocate have with the particular operations of specific phenomena? Not much. It is just another loop back to the "All is One" belief.
                 
                There are physical and social boundaries as well as limitation to sensory perception. Experiments are designed to reveal the unseen cause.
                 
                The  belief that the world was flat was not christian. It was the misguided belief of dictatorship in the state religion. The dictatorship wanted to dictate the terms of reality to the citizens of the state as members of religion. Dictating terms made them feel like they controlled reality. They believed that they had "power over" others.
                 
                The supporters of dictatorship claimed to be christians, but like the "All is One" advocate, religion was merely the means to the end of controlling the perceptions of others. Thus, people like Galileo who used evidence to determine that the earth revolves around the sun were persecuted as heretics to the belief that everything revolves around the earth.
                 
                The "science" documented in the bible was posited in an effort to improve upon the science of imperial polytheism. Imperial polytheism was psycho-social, but it wasn't very scientific. It was replaced by monotheism. While imperial monotheism expanded upon the monarchical, it was more limited than the international. Scientific standards are international now. Nationalism is also international insofar as it is concerned with global dynamics.
                 
                Nationalism that champions human rights promotes freedom of religion as protected.  This kind of nationalism is not anti-thetical to the Judeo-Christian ethic. It encourages Judaism, Christianity, Islam and any other religion to teach ethics to their membership as citizens of the state.
                 
                The law has been established to protect the people of the state. It is not a tool for the abuse of majority rule. It is not the special privlege of the largest social group in the state. It is the equalizer designed to protect and serve the largest majority: all the law abiding citizens of the state.
                 
                The current "Occupy" movement is a testimony to the fact that freedom of assembly and speech was established so those who have been disadvantaged by state policy can speak out and be heard.  It is lasting as long as it is because many are unemployed and homeless. They have no other legal choice than to protest the policy that mathematically guaranteed that many productive citizens would be released from work and evicted from their homes in the name of greed.
                 
                The disproportionate advantage afforded to the wealthiest needs to be changed. Their taxes have to be increased in order to affect economic correction.
                 
                Steve K.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 11:28 am
                Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                 
                Steve, you said,

                All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. ( I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a  quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One)
                 
                The absence of solid and liquid matter is space,( There is no such a thing as “solidity” this is a generation of the mind. Solidity is the repulsive force of electron that exists between tow object due to sameness of the forces) of  but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident. The mind, is the organ of perception)
                 
                Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. ( God as a trinity is a mystery. He is still unknown)  It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                 
                Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. ( We are God, to the extent that we are His children)  We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness. ( Consciousness is divine. I, AM, is the divine in you)
                 
                Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                 
                Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists. ( There were a time when Christians believed that the world was flat. That the earth is the center of the universe. And that everything moves around the earth. They not longer believe so, thanks to science.)

                Peter

                From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 2:17 AM
                Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                 
                Peter,
                 
                All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. The absence of solid and liquid matter is space, but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident.
                 
                Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                 
                Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness.
                 
                Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                 
                Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists.
                 
                Steve K.


                -----Original Message-----
                From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                Sent: Tue, Nov 1, 2011 1:31 pm
                Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                 
                Steve,
                In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

                Peter


                From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
                To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
                Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                 
                Others,

                John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

                Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

                What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

                Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

                Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
                http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

                Steve K.







              • Sbkidde@aol.com
                Peter,   When quantum theorists go to the subatomic level to come back with a denial of any real reality according to sensory perception, it is a rehash of
                Message 7 of 11 , Nov 4, 2011
                  Peter,
                   
                  When quantum theorists go to the subatomic level to come back with a denial of any real reality according to sensory perception, it is a rehash of monistic metaphysics. It is not scientific theory.
                   
                  Your scientific theory as associated with quantum mechanics was used to return to a false conclusion. The false conclusion is the basic premises of monistic philosophy. All is one. The many is illusion.
                   
                  Reality is not created by the mind. Sensory perception reads reality. It does not create it. It is only fictive imagination that creates "reality."
                   
                  Don't try to tell me that fiction is fact. You will always come up short of persuasion. Pantheism is false doctrine no matter how you get to it.
                   
                  Steve K.


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                  To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:48 pm
                  Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                   
                  Steve you wrote:
                   
                  “. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. “
                   
                  Steve, from Einstein’s  theory of relativity, we understand that matter and energy are interchangeable. Why, because matter, is latent energy. In that regard, whether a “thing” is “solid” “liquid” or “gaseous” its only differentiated by atomic number, and how they bond. In quantum field theory, science tells us that subatomic particle are not exactly particles. They are  merely a combination of energy and law, resulting to relations, and correlations, which manifest multifaceted potentialities, that appear as “subatomic particle”  But these “particle” are not things. Its just energy and law.
                   
                  So, if for example you were reduced to subatomic size, and you retained your consciousness, you would not see “things” You would not see solid, liquid, or gaseous “things” Rather, what you would see, are swirling cloud of energy, differentiated by the bonding of energy and law, and what it manifests.
                   
                  When it comes to consciousness, this is an interactive activity of the mind. Its an expression and experience of the mind, which appear as “reality” Reality is a creation of the mind. Its not something that exists on itself. As you have well put, “solidity is evident to the sense of touch” But then, ask yourself, what is this sense of touch? Is its not an acknowledgement of the mind, an experience of the mind, to existence of the phenomenon of a reality out there, that generates an expression, which the mind experiences as “touch”?
                   
                  So, you see, you cannot separate reality from the mind, because, reality is the creation of the mind.
                   
                  Peter


                  From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                  To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 1:13 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                   
                  Pete,
                   
                  You wrote: I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One.
                   
                  ===============
                   
                  Your saying it doesn't make it so. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. 
                   
                  Our senses are not perfect measures of truth, but sensation is something that is common to humanity. It is the way that the world outside ourselves is perceived. The world outside ourselves is a shared reality.
                   
                  What is reality? It is not just a concept. The concept is a reference to all that exists. It is used however to refer to that which can be observed by more than one person.
                   
                  Science is a body of knowledge concerned with the operations of reality. The use of science to promote a pantheistic metaphysic is misguided. Why? As I have already noted, pantheism overgeneralizes. Accuracy in generalization and specification is a goal in science. It is not the goal of pantheism. Thus, pantheistic metaphysics undermines science. (Anti-religious science is not scientific either. The eradication of religion does serve the objectivity of the scientific community, because it is discriminatory.)
                   
                  What concern does the "All is One" advocate have with the particular operations of specific phenomena? Not much. It is just another loop back to the "All is One" belief.
                   
                  There are physical and social boundaries as well as limitation to sensory perception. Experiments are designed to reveal the unseen cause.
                   
                  The  belief that the world was flat was not christian. It was the misguided belief of dictatorship in the state religion. The dictatorship wanted to dictate the terms of reality to the citizens of the state as members of religion. Dictating terms made them feel like they controlled reality. They believed that they had "power over" others.
                   
                  The supporters of dictatorship claimed to be christians, but like the "All is One" advocate, religion was merely the means to the end of controlling the perceptions of others. Thus, people like Galileo who used evidence to determine that the earth revolves around the sun were persecuted as heretics to the belief that everything revolves around the earth.
                   
                  The "science" documented in the bible was posited in an effort to improve upon the science of imperial polytheism. Imperial polytheism was psycho-social, but it wasn't very scientific. It was replaced by monotheism. While imperial monotheism expanded upon the monarchical, it was more limited than the international. Scientific standards are international now. Nationalism is also international insofar as it is concerned with global dynamics.
                   
                  Nationalism that champions human rights promotes freedom of religion as protected.  This kind of nationalism is not anti-thetical to the Judeo-Christian ethic. It encourages Judaism, Christianity, Islam and any other religion to teach ethics to their membership as citizens of the state.
                   
                  The law has been established to protect the people of the state. It is not a tool for the abuse of majority rule. It is not the special privlege of the largest social group in the state. It is the equalizer designed to protect and serve the largest majority: all the law abiding citizens of the state.
                   
                  The current "Occupy" movement is a testimony to the fact that freedom of assembly and speech was established so those who have been disadvantaged by state policy can speak out and be heard.  It is lasting as long as it is because many are unemployed and homeless. They have no other legal choice than to protest the policy that mathematically guaranteed that many productive citizens would be released from work and evicted from their homes in the name of greed.
                   
                  The disproportionate advantage afforded to the wealthiest needs to be changed. Their taxes have to be increased in order to affect economic correction.
                   
                  Steve K.


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                  To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 11:28 am
                  Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                   
                  Steve, you said,

                  All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. ( I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a  quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One)
                   
                  The absence of solid and liquid matter is space,( There is no such a thing as “solidity” this is a generation of the mind. Solidity is the repulsive force of electron that exists between tow object due to sameness of the forces) of  but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident. The mind, is the organ of perception)
                   
                  Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. ( God as a trinity is a mystery. He is still unknown)  It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                   
                  Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. ( We are God, to the extent that we are His children)  We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness. ( Consciousness is divine. I, AM, is the divine in you)
                   
                  Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                   
                  Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists. ( There were a time when Christians believed that the world was flat. That the earth is the center of the universe. And that everything moves around the earth. They not longer believe so, thanks to science.)

                  Peter

                  From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                  To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 2:17 AM
                  Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                   
                  Peter,
                   
                  All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. The absence of solid and liquid matter is space, but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident.
                   
                  Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                   
                  Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness.
                   
                  Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                   
                  Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists.
                   
                  Steve K.


                  -----Original Message-----
                  From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                  To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                  Sent: Tue, Nov 1, 2011 1:31 pm
                  Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                   
                  Steve,
                  In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

                  Peter


                  From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
                  To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
                  Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                   
                  Others,

                  John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

                  Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

                  What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

                  Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

                  Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
                  http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

                  Steve K.







                • Brother Dave
                  Hi Peter and Steve and all, I have enjoyed and agreed with some aspects of each of your views on reality. Peter has a certain degree of spiritual insight,
                  Message 8 of 11 , Nov 4, 2011
                    Hi Peter and Steve and all,

                    I have enjoyed and agreed with some aspects of each of your views on reality.

                    Peter has a certain degree of spiritual insight, while, in my view, lacking in  some Theological and factual truths. 

                    Steve has better Theological and factual truth in general.

                    I am sorry that I don't have the time to respond to each point in all of your back-and-forth posts.

                    Steve, both your pantheism and the beliefs of the "Christian Science" church have this in common: Both believe that Mind is the highest Reality. God thinks about something and it is existent. They call this the Divine Mind.  Some holding this belief also think that man's mind is also Divine and thus creative ..."think it, believe it, and (as magic) it is !"  No.  If you put all of those "Divine Mind" thinkers at the South Pole in July, with no shelter and no heat source; they will all die rapidly in minutes or hours, no matter how hard they think that they can make it a nice positive 70 degrees F.  It remains at -130 F or so. We also have invented airplanes as thinking we can fly by ourselves by so thinking never has worked

                    Now, there are several theories on why this happens.  One is that a higher Mind, such as the Mind of The Infinite (Holy) Spirit sets Realities that the lowest of all potentially ascending sons of God (humans here) can not override with their much lower minds.  That does have some validity in the Fifth Epochal Revelation of Truth.  More precisely, it also does state that the great Law of our universe is:

                    "What a True Son of God (such as our Master Creator Jesus Christ) desires and the (Paradise) Father wills ...IS"

                    So, only if we desire something that is already God's (or Jesus') will, will that happen ! But probably not right away. It might be part of God's perfect Plan(s) in weeks, years, centuries, thousands, millions, billions or trillions of years in our future !  God is not all-doing; He wants us to grow up, experience, experiment, invent and even co-create things and baby humans with Him. If you could visit the South Pole in July again in maybe 2,000 plus years, very likely it will be climate controlled to perfection by the science discoveries of future humans !

                    Now, Steve and I are right that pantheism is a delusion or a colossal error and is not God's will. You will learn that by enhanced experiences and deeper reflections when the time is right. 

                    Deity Mind is a third-level Presence Reality, above fourth-level Paradise Force (super-energy) Gravity Presence.  Second-level Deity Reality is the Spirit Gravity Presence of the Paradise Eternal Son.  First-level Deity Reality is the Primal Personality Gravity Presence of the Paradise Father-Infinite I AM

                    I will stop here, otherwise I would have to write a book. Later, I may share a few 20 or so paragraphs from the FER on "space is".  Space is very Real, more Real than time.  Space has many higher forces and super-energies not yet discovered by our physicists. Steve is correct that our relativity and quantum mechanics are  not yet very close to actual reality. Much of that is just speculation. The particle wave duality of the photon is false. Each photon is a real discrete particle with mass; yet is does go at C the speed of light. The wave effects are only secondary from interactions with some of the yet-undetected space forces.

                    1.The Absolute of time is Eternity

                    2. The Absolute of space is Paradise. Each stable electron in all atoms is made of exactly 100 very tiny particles spinning and clustering to form the electron. The FER states that these are called ultimatons. Recent particle physics experiments seem to indicate that at high energies, some electrons have split in two or into smaller units.  Here is the big shocker: The FER states that each ultimaton has Paradise as it nucleus ! But that is not a "particle pan-Force ! as Paradise is only present in the absolutely tiny center of each ultimately tiny ultimaton particles. God the Father-Son-Spirit-Force has also chosen to be Nuclear just above the center of Paradise and to transmit Personality and Spirit and Mind and Force out to many beings and space locations.

                    3. The Absolute of You is GOD the Bestower of your unchanging personality and the pure pre-personal spirit will of God within you !

                    Sorry, no more time tonight. Sorry, if there are typos, or grammar errors; no time to proof-read.


                    Peace and progress in Spirit and in Father-Son Truth,


                    Brother Dave


                    http://www.blogtalkradio.com/brother-dave0137

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                    From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                    To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Fri, November 4, 2011 6:35:41 PM
                    Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                     

                    Peter,
                     
                    When quantum theorists go to the subatomic level to come back with a denial of any real reality according to sensory perception, it is a rehash of monistic metaphysics. It is not scientific theory.
                     
                    Your scientific theory as associated with quantum mechanics was used to return to a false conclusion. The false conclusion is the basic premises of monistic philosophy. All is one. The many is illusion.
                     
                    Reality is not created by the mind. Sensory perception reads reality. It does not create it. It is only fictive imagination that creates "reality."
                     
                    Don't try to tell me that fiction is fact. You will always come up short of persuasion. Pantheism is false doctrine no matter how you get to it.
                     
                    Steve K.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                    To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:48 pm
                    Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                     
                    Steve you wrote:
                     
                    “. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. “
                     
                    Steve, from Einstein’s  theory of relativity, we understand that matter and energy are interchangeable. Why, because matter, is latent energy. In that regard, whether a “thing” is “solid” “liquid” or “gaseous” its only differentiated by atomic number, and how they bond. In quantum field theory, science tells us that subatomic particle are not exactly particles. They are  merely a combination of energy and law, resulting to relations, and correlations, which manifest multifaceted potentialities, that appear as “subatomic particle”  But these “particle” are not things. Its just energy and law.
                     
                    So, if for example you were reduced to subatomic size, and you retained your consciousness, you would not see “things” You would not see solid, liquid, or gaseous “things” Rather, what you would see, are swirling cloud of energy, differentiated by the bonding of energy and law, and what it manifests.
                     
                    When it comes to consciousness, this is an interactive activity of the mind. Its an expression and experience of the mind, which appear as “reality” Reality is a creation of the mind. Its not something that exists on itself. As you have well put, “solidity is evident to the sense of touch” But then, ask yourself, what is this sense of touch? Is its not an acknowledgement of the mind, an experience of the mind, to existence of the phenomenon of a reality out there, that generates an expression, which the mind experiences as “touch”?
                     
                    So, you see, you cannot separate reality from the mind, because, reality is the creation of the mind.
                     
                    Peter


                    From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                    To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 1:13 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                     
                    Pete,
                     
                    You wrote: I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One.
                     
                    ===============
                     
                    Your saying it doesn't make it so. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. 
                     
                    Our senses are not perfect measures of truth, but sensation is something that is common to humanity. It is the way that the world outside ourselves is perceived. The world outside ourselves is a shared reality.
                     
                    What is reality? It is not just a concept. The concept is a reference to all that exists. It is used however to refer to that which can be observed by more than one person.
                     
                    Science is a body of knowledge concerned with the operations of reality. The use of science to promote a pantheistic metaphysic is misguided. Why? As I have already noted, pantheism overgeneralizes. Accuracy in generalization and specification is a goal in science. It is not the goal of pantheism. Thus, pantheistic metaphysics undermines science. (Anti-religious science is not scientific either. The eradication of religion does serve the objectivity of the scientific community, because it is discriminatory.)
                     
                    What concern does the "All is One" advocate have with the particular operations of specific phenomena? Not much. It is just another loop back to the "All is One" belief.
                     
                    There are physical and social boundaries as well as limitation to sensory perception. Experiments are designed to reveal the unseen cause.
                     
                    The  belief that the world was flat was not christian. It was the misguided belief of dictatorship in the state religion. The dictatorship wanted to dictate the terms of reality to the citizens of the state as members of religion. Dictating terms made them feel like they controlled reality. They believed that they had "power over" others.
                     
                    The supporters of dictatorship claimed to be christians, but like the "All is One" advocate, religion was merely the means to the end of controlling the perceptions of others. Thus, people like Galileo who used evidence to determine that the earth revolves around the sun were persecuted as heretics to the belief that everything revolves around the earth.
                     
                    The "science" documented in the bible was posited in an effort to improve upon the science of imperial polytheism. Imperial polytheism was psycho-social, but it wasn't very scientific. It was replaced by monotheism. While imperial monotheism expanded upon the monarchical, it was more limited than the international. Scientific standards are international now. Nationalism is also international insofar as it is concerned with global dynamics.
                     
                    Nationalism that champions human rights promotes freedom of religion as protected.  This kind of nationalism is not anti-thetical to the Judeo-Christian ethic. It encourages Judaism, Christianity, Islam and any other religion to teach ethics to their membership as citizens of the state.
                     
                    The law has been established to protect the people of the state. It is not a tool for the abuse of majority rule. It is not the special privlege of the largest social group in the state. It is the equalizer designed to protect and serve the largest majority: all the law abiding citizens of the state.
                     
                    The current "Occupy" movement is a testimony to the fact that freedom of assembly and speech was established so those who have been disadvantaged by state policy can speak out and be heard.  It is lasting as long as it is because many are unemployed and homeless. They have no other legal choice than to protest the policy that mathematically guaranteed that many productive citizens would be released from work and evicted from their homes in the name of greed.
                     
                    The disproportionate advantage afforded to the wealthiest needs to be changed. Their taxes have to be increased in order to affect economic correction.
                     
                    Steve K.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                    To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 11:28 am
                    Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                     
                    Steve, you said,

                    All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. ( I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a  quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One)
                     
                    The absence of solid and liquid matter is space,( There is no such a thing as “solidity” this is a generation of the mind. Solidity is the repulsive force of electron that exists between tow object due to sameness of the forces) of  but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident. The mind, is the organ of perception)
                     
                    Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. ( God as a trinity is a mystery. He is still unknown)  It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                     
                    Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. ( We are God, to the extent that we are His children)  We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness. ( Consciousness is divine. I, AM, is the divine in you)
                     
                    Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                     
                    Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists. ( There were a time when Christians believed that the world was flat. That the earth is the center of the universe. And that everything moves around the earth. They not longer believe so, thanks to science.)

                    Peter

                    From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                    To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 2:17 AM
                    Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                     
                    Peter,
                     
                    All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. The absence of solid and liquid matter is space, but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident.
                     
                    Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                     
                    Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness.
                     
                    Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                     
                    Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists.
                     
                    Steve K.


                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                    To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tue, Nov 1, 2011 1:31 pm
                    Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                     
                    Steve,
                    In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

                    Peter


                    From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
                    To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
                    Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                     
                    Others,

                    John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

                    Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

                    What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

                    Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

                    Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
                    http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

                    Steve K.







                  • Brother Dave
                    My Error: change: Steve, both your pantheism and the beliefs of the Christian Science church have this in common: to: Peter, both your pantheism and the
                    Message 9 of 11 , Nov 4, 2011
                      My Error: change:

                      Steve, both your pantheism and the beliefs of the "Christian Science" church have this in common:

                      to:

                      Peter, both your pantheism and the beliefs of the "Christian Science" church have this in common:

                      Peace and progress in Spirit and in Father-Son Truth,


                      Brother Dave



                      From: Brother Dave <truthist@...>
                      To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Fri, November 4, 2011 9:10:31 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Reality, Pantheism, space, more

                       

                      Hi Peter and Steve and all,

                      I have enjoyed and agreed with some aspects of each of your views on reality.

                      Peter has a certain degree of spiritual insight, while, in my view, lacking in  some Theological and factual truths. 

                      Steve has better Theological and factual truth in general.

                      I am sorry that I don't have the time to respond to each point in all of your back-and-forth posts.

                      Steve, both your pantheism and the beliefs of the "Christian Science" church have this in common: Both believe that Mind is the highest Reality. God thinks about something and it is existent. They call this the Divine Mind.  Some holding this belief also think that man's mind is also Divine and thus creative ..."think it, believe it, and (as magic) it is !"  No.  If you put all of those "Divine Mind" thinkers at the South Pole in July, with no shelter and no heat source; they will all die rapidly in minutes or hours, no matter how hard they think that they can make it a nice positive 70 degrees F.  It remains at -130 F or so. We also have invented airplanes as thinking we can fly by ourselves by so thinking never has worked

                      Now, there are several theories on why this happens.  One is that a higher Mind, such as the Mind of The Infinite (Holy) Spirit sets Realities that the lowest of all potentially ascending sons of God (humans here) can not override with their much lower minds.  That does have some validity in the Fifth Epochal Revelation of Truth.  More precisely, it also does state that the great Law of our universe is:

                      "What a True Son of God (such as our Master Creator Jesus Christ) desires and the (Paradise) Father wills ...IS"

                      So, only if we desire something that is already God's (or Jesus') will, will that happen ! But probably not right away. It might be part of God's perfect Plan(s) in weeks, years, centuries, thousands, millions, billions or trillions of years in our future !  God is not all-doing; He wants us to grow up, experience, experiment, invent and even co-create things and baby humans with Him. If you could visit the South Pole in July again in maybe 2,000 plus years, very likely it will be climate controlled to perfection by the science discoveries of future humans !

                      Now, Steve and I are right that pantheism is a delusion or a colossal error and is not God's will. You will learn that by enhanced experiences and deeper reflections when the time is right. 

                      Deity Mind is a third-level Presence Reality, above fourth-level Paradise Force (super-energy) Gravity Presence.  Second-level Deity Reality is the Spirit Gravity Presence of the Paradise Eternal Son.  First-level Deity Reality is the Primal Personality Gravity Presence of the Paradise Father-Infinite I AM

                      I will stop here, otherwise I would have to write a book. Later, I may share a few 20 or so paragraphs from the FER on "space is".  Space is very Real, more Real than time.  Space has many higher forces and super-energies not yet discovered by our physicists. Steve is correct that our relativity and quantum mechanics are  not yet very close to actual reality. Much of that is just speculation. The particle wave duality of the photon is false. Each photon is a real discrete particle with mass; yet is does go at C the speed of light. The wave effects are only secondary from interactions with some of the yet-undetected space forces.

                      1.The Absolute of time is Eternity

                      2. The Absolute of space is Paradise. Each stable electron in all atoms is made of exactly 100 very tiny particles spinning and clustering to form the electron. The FER states that these are called ultimatons. Recent particle physics experiments seem to indicate that at high energies, some electrons have split in two or into smaller units.  Here is the big shocker: The FER states that each ultimaton has Paradise as it nucleus ! But that is not a "particle pan-Force ! as Paradise is only present in the absolutely tiny center of each ultimately tiny ultimaton particles. God the Father-Son-Spirit-Force has also chosen to be Nuclear just above the center of Paradise and to transmit Personality and Spirit and Mind and Force out to many beings and space locations.

                      3. The Absolute of You is GOD the Bestower of your unchanging personality and the pure pre-personal spirit will of God within you !

                      Sorry, no more time tonight. Sorry, if there are typos, or grammar errors; no time to proof-read.


                      Peace and progress in Spirit and in Father-Son Truth,


                      Brother Dave


                      http://www.blogtalkradio.com/brother-dave0137

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                      From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                      To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Fri, November 4, 2011 6:35:41 PM
                      Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                       

                      Peter,
                       
                      When quantum theorists go to the subatomic level to come back with a denial of any real reality according to sensory perception, it is a rehash of monistic metaphysics. It is not scientific theory.
                       
                      Your scientific theory as associated with quantum mechanics was used to return to a false conclusion. The false conclusion is the basic premises of monistic philosophy. All is one. The many is illusion.
                       
                      Reality is not created by the mind. Sensory perception reads reality. It does not create it. It is only fictive imagination that creates "reality."
                       
                      Don't try to tell me that fiction is fact. You will always come up short of persuasion. Pantheism is false doctrine no matter how you get to it.
                       
                      Steve K.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                      To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Fri, Nov 4, 2011 12:48 pm
                      Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                       
                      Steve you wrote:
                       
                      “. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. “
                       
                      Steve, from Einstein’s  theory of relativity, we understand that matter and energy are interchangeable. Why, because matter, is latent energy. In that regard, whether a “thing” is “solid” “liquid” or “gaseous” its only differentiated by atomic number, and how they bond. In quantum field theory, science tells us that subatomic particle are not exactly particles. They are  merely a combination of energy and law, resulting to relations, and correlations, which manifest multifaceted potentialities, that appear as “subatomic particle”  But these “particle” are not things. Its just energy and law.
                       
                      So, if for example you were reduced to subatomic size, and you retained your consciousness, you would not see “things” You would not see solid, liquid, or gaseous “things” Rather, what you would see, are swirling cloud of energy, differentiated by the bonding of energy and law, and what it manifests.
                       
                      When it comes to consciousness, this is an interactive activity of the mind. Its an expression and experience of the mind, which appear as “reality” Reality is a creation of the mind. Its not something that exists on itself. As you have well put, “solidity is evident to the sense of touch” But then, ask yourself, what is this sense of touch? Is its not an acknowledgement of the mind, an experience of the mind, to existence of the phenomenon of a reality out there, that generates an expression, which the mind experiences as “touch”?
                       
                      So, you see, you cannot separate reality from the mind, because, reality is the creation of the mind.
                       
                      Peter


                      From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                      To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Friday, November 4, 2011 1:13 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                       
                      Pete,
                       
                      You wrote: I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One.
                       
                      ===============
                       
                      Your saying it doesn't make it so. We idenify the absence of solid and liquid matter as space. Space is a phenomena that "exists" (by not existing) in reality.  Solidity is evident to the sense of touch. That which is not solid is liquid or gas. Non-toxic liquid can also be touched. Gas is usually only felt in relation to the movement of air. 
                       
                      Our senses are not perfect measures of truth, but sensation is something that is common to humanity. It is the way that the world outside ourselves is perceived. The world outside ourselves is a shared reality.
                       
                      What is reality? It is not just a concept. The concept is a reference to all that exists. It is used however to refer to that which can be observed by more than one person.
                       
                      Science is a body of knowledge concerned with the operations of reality. The use of science to promote a pantheistic metaphysic is misguided. Why? As I have already noted, pantheism overgeneralizes. Accuracy in generalization and specification is a goal in science. It is not the goal of pantheism. Thus, pantheistic metaphysics undermines science. (Anti-religious science is not scientific either. The eradication of religion does serve the objectivity of the scientific community, because it is discriminatory.)
                       
                      What concern does the "All is One" advocate have with the particular operations of specific phenomena? Not much. It is just another loop back to the "All is One" belief.
                       
                      There are physical and social boundaries as well as limitation to sensory perception. Experiments are designed to reveal the unseen cause.
                       
                      The  belief that the world was flat was not christian. It was the misguided belief of dictatorship in the state religion. The dictatorship wanted to dictate the terms of reality to the citizens of the state as members of religion. Dictating terms made them feel like they controlled reality. They believed that they had "power over" others.
                       
                      The supporters of dictatorship claimed to be christians, but like the "All is One" advocate, religion was merely the means to the end of controlling the perceptions of others. Thus, people like Galileo who used evidence to determine that the earth revolves around the sun were persecuted as heretics to the belief that everything revolves around the earth.
                       
                      The "science" documented in the bible was posited in an effort to improve upon the science of imperial polytheism. Imperial polytheism was psycho-social, but it wasn't very scientific. It was replaced by monotheism. While imperial monotheism expanded upon the monarchical, it was more limited than the international. Scientific standards are international now. Nationalism is also international insofar as it is concerned with global dynamics.
                       
                      Nationalism that champions human rights promotes freedom of religion as protected.  This kind of nationalism is not anti-thetical to the Judeo-Christian ethic. It encourages Judaism, Christianity, Islam and any other religion to teach ethics to their membership as citizens of the state.
                       
                      The law has been established to protect the people of the state. It is not a tool for the abuse of majority rule. It is not the special privlege of the largest social group in the state. It is the equalizer designed to protect and serve the largest majority: all the law abiding citizens of the state.
                       
                      The current "Occupy" movement is a testimony to the fact that freedom of assembly and speech was established so those who have been disadvantaged by state policy can speak out and be heard.  It is lasting as long as it is because many are unemployed and homeless. They have no other legal choice than to protest the policy that mathematically guaranteed that many productive citizens would be released from work and evicted from their homes in the name of greed.
                       
                      The disproportionate advantage afforded to the wealthiest needs to be changed. Their taxes have to be increased in order to affect economic correction.
                       
                      Steve K.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                      To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Wed, Nov 2, 2011 11:28 am
                      Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                       
                      Steve, you said,

                      All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. ( I said that there is no such a thing as “space” This is a generation of the mind, in order to make sense of reality. There is a  quantum entanglement which creates an interconnectedness of everything, such that there are no boundaries. All is One)
                       
                      The absence of solid and liquid matter is space,( There is no such a thing as “solidity” this is a generation of the mind. Solidity is the repulsive force of electron that exists between tow object due to sameness of the forces) of  but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident. The mind, is the organ of perception)
                       
                      Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. ( God as a trinity is a mystery. He is still unknown)  It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                       
                      Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. ( We are God, to the extent that we are His children)  We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness. ( Consciousness is divine. I, AM, is the divine in you)
                       
                      Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                       
                      Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists. ( There were a time when Christians believed that the world was flat. That the earth is the center of the universe. And that everything moves around the earth. They not longer believe so, thanks to science.)

                      Peter

                      From: "Sbkidde@..." <Sbkidde@...>
                      To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Wednesday, November 2, 2011 2:17 AM
                      Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                       
                      Peter,
                       
                      All is not consciousness. Consciousness is a mental phenomenon. We know that we have it. We believe that animals have it, but a line is drawn when we get to sentient being without brains. An amoeba has sentience, but it does not have consciousness. It is not correct to assert that space is consciousness. The absence of solid and liquid matter is space, but there is no organ for perception that makes consciousness evident.
                       
                      Christian theology does not assert that everything is God. It is asserted that God is the Creator of everything. It is believed that there is a design to creation through which divine will is revealed. It is not argued that everything is God. There are those who assert that the universe is not God. Somehow 'everything that is' is the work of the Creator that is not the Creator itself.
                       
                      Certainly, the design of things tells us something about the Creator, but human cognition is only a small part of the design. It is wrong to argue that all is consciousness and everything is God, because that argument presumes that we are God when we are not. We participate in divine being insofar as it is allowed. Divine being works through all or any part of creation, but divinity is not limited to humanity or consciousness.
                       
                      Humans have the ability to create things. Often enough our creations are small. There are times when the things that we have made are profoundly beneficial to our being. There is however no other context for comparison. The conception of a creation that exists on as vast a scale as the universe is beyond our cognitive abilities.
                       
                      Theory associated with Quantum physics is not always scientific. There are times when the theory over-generalizes. The argument that everything is consciousness is an overgeneralization. It is speculation. It can promote discussion, but there are times when the speculation simply inhibits progress in developing scientific theory. Moreover, it is not theory that finds agreement with Christian theology. We do not argue that everything is God. It is a pantheistic argument. We are not pantheists.
                       
                      Steve K.


                      -----Original Message-----
                      From: Peter Silverstone <ongeasana@...>
                      To: Christian-Philosophy <Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com>
                      Sent: Tue, Nov 1, 2011 1:31 pm
                      Subject: Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                       
                      Steve,
                      In Quantum field theory, we find that matter has no “substance” That sub-atomic particles are not tiny “things” frozen in space. That means that matter is not solid. Its not an exactitude. It’s a manifestation of an underlying reality, which David Bohm called “ implicate order” This implicate order, is the Causative reality, appearing as “phenomenon” A  reality which appears to exists, out there. An effect reality.  But this eality, does no exists. Our mind are constructed in such a way that in order to make sense of it, we create parameters or dimensions  that help us to relate to it. ,  That’s why we claim that there is something called “space” and another something called “time” and another something called “matter” But all that is generation of the mind. All that exists, is consciousness. At quantum level, there exists a quantum interconnectedness, which creates the so-called,  undivided wholeness. All is One, All is God. Though I know you still will accuse me of pantheism. Which I wont mind.

                      Peter


                      From: Mr. Kidd <Sbkidde@...>
                      To: Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                      Sent: Monday, October 31, 2011 6:16 PM
                      Subject: [Christian-Philosophy] Ghost Hunting

                       
                      Others,

                      John Locke argues that spirit exists in his essay on "Human Understanding." It exists as an idea of an immaterial substance. Nevertheless, the idea of spiritual substance is as clear as that of bodily substance.

                      Is he talking about non-solid matter? Is he referring to substance in liquid or gaseous forms? These are questions that go to the heart of scientific investigation. What can be known about the operation of things where a cause is not clearly observable?

                      What do you think? Do you believe in ghosts? Are there spirits that haunt you? The SyFy channel is broadcasting a show called "Ghost Hunters" on Halloween. The investigators interview observers. They use scientific technology to investigate claims regarding the existence of ghosts.

                      Watch "Ghost Hunters" to see if you can formulate theories about what causes the unexpected noise; the shadowy form; or the involuntary shiver. The search for answers reveals the significance of the history of the location.

                      Today is Halloween. Tonight Ghost Hunters is live.
                      http://www.syfy.com/ghosthunters/

                      Steve K.







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