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Re: [Christian-Philosophy] Re: God and "natural" Laws

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  • Geoff
    ... The FER isnt authoritive about Jesus, the bible is. All that is known and verifiable about Christ is in the bible, nowhere else. The bible clearly tells us
    Message 1 of 139 , Dec 31, 2008
      Andre Traversa wrote:
      > Geoff,
      > You claim to know the exact methodology of how Jesus healed the sick?
      > Wow, that's quite alot of special knowledge.
      > Even the FER doesn't tell us that in great detail; even the Revelators
      > don't
      > claim to understand that entire process.
      > How is controlling the weather a violation of natural law?
      > It controls nature, but doesn't violate any natrual laws, like defiance of
      > gravity, etc.

      The FER isnt authoritive about Jesus, the bible is. All that is known
      and verifiable about Christ is in the bible, nowhere else.

      The bible clearly tells us that Jesus healed the sick through the power
      of God (example, the woman who had been bleeding for 12 years).

      Lets see, how is controlling the weather a violation of a natural law?
      Certain conditions exist to make a storm, saying a word and removing
      those natural conditions SUPERNATURALLY is a violation of natural law.
      Had Jesus not intervened, the storm would have - naturally, due to the
      laws of nature - continued.

      Lets get back to raising the dead. Jesus raised the dead. Jesus himself
      was raised from the dead. That was done by God, and a violation of
      natural law. The hope of all true Christians is that one day they will
      be raised from the dead and recreated - that is a violation of natural
      law. Natural law is when you die, you stay dead.

      God can and does violate the laws of nature, so your initial objection
      to the virgin birth is unsupportable using this argument.

    • Karen
      My replies are below are in bold... This is a forum board and all can reply to any post, whether it is directed to them or not. ... Geoff, your interpretation
      Message 139 of 139 , Jan 25, 2009
        My replies are below are in bold...  This is a forum board and all can reply to any post, whether it is directed to them or not.

        --- In Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com, Geoff <geoff@...> wrote:

        > This sounds very much like an irritated "reply off the cuff".
        > Where is your evidence?
        > I've given my evidence time and time again.
        Geoff, your interpretation of the evidence is warped.
        > > common sense tells you that
        > > children are not born sinful.
        > No, this is untrue. Thinkers for countless generations have tried to
        > explain away why children behave as they do, because its not "good".

         You really don't understand child psychology!  If you did, you would not believe as you do.

        > > there is no evidence that we come into the
        > > world outside of a right relationship with god; we just come into the
        > > world imperfect; that doesn't mean we're not right with God.
        > This is just a new age cop out. There is plenty of evidence.

        You think anything you don't agree with is "new age".   You warp the evidence!

        > Firstly, you have to understand what it means to be outside of a
        > relationship with God, the effect on the person, and how it exhibits
        > itself. Clearly you do not understand this, or you wouldnt grasp at such
        > a weak claim.

        Frankly Geoff, your claims are weak and wrong.  You distort who God truly is !  You THINK you are in a "right relationship" with God, but you are not.  It is apparent you don't understand Him at all.  Evil is not found in God !
        > > God has already established a relationship with god by giving us the
        > > gift of personality, and by putting a fragment of Himself inside of us;
        > The bible says

        No, Geoff says...

        >God is only within us AFTER we are in relationship with
        > Him. Jesus said: "Jesus answered him, "Those who love me will keep my
        > word, and my Father will love them, and we will come to them and make
        > our home with them."
        > Only those who Love, and the word love is "agapeo" - to serve
        > steadfastly - the equivalent in Hebrew being "chesed" - steadfast or
        > covenant love, that is, those who are in a covenant relationship with God..
        > So, you would be incorrect, and totally platonistic (and therefore
        > gnostic) in this thought. This is one of the errors that came about when
        > later "christians" with limited philosophical education tried to
        > platonise bible teachings.
        > > and by sending Jesus to reveal His loving fatherly nature to us.
        > uh huh:

        Geoff, this merely asserts what Andre is saying.

        > John 14:5 Thomas said, "Lord, we don't know where you are going. How
        > can we know the way?" 14:6 Jesus replied, "I am the way, and the truth,
        > and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. 14:7 If you
        > have known me, you will know my Father too. And from now on you do know
        > him and have seen him."
        > Only those who go "through" Jesus - that is, believing into his

        >salvic work on the Cross. ???

        It was not the choice of Christ to be killed, nor was it God's choice.  He was condemned by the Jews and Romans, not by God.  Jesus merely accepted their choice, he was done here.  He knew the Jewish leaders were wrapped up in their books, rituals, and customs.  He knew they were non-believers, except for a few who kept their beliefs secret, out of fear.  He declared himself to them and they rejected him.  He decided to fulfill their prophecies, hoping they would then believe.  As I said before, he was done here and done with them. 

        > > And by Jesus sending His Spirit on all flesh at Pentecost.
        > All flesh?

        Yes ALL humans then and now.  Only a chosen few are given the Spirit?  This belief is "elevation of self." 

        > Acts 2 clearly states that the spirit fell on those present in the upper
        > room. Not all flesh.
        > > personally I don't care about what's Biblical, only about what's
        > > reasonable and logical.
        > human logic and reason now supersede God's? well, that appears to be not
        > only a rejection of God and an elevation of yourself, but also against the FER teachings

        False, you know this is not true!  Oh wait, maybe you don't.  I believe God embodies all logic, most of it we don't understand in our human minds.  We do know the logic of God is good.  That's not an elevation of self.  It is realization of perfection.   
        >which appears to supersede logic and reason by its mere presence in the world

        You say and believe the same thing about the Bible !!!  Truth is discerned because it contains beauty and goodness.  Truth is discerned through the Spirit of Christ.  Spiritual truths can be nothing but good. 
        > > A God who sanctions the murder of women and
        > > children is neither.
        > Only to one who doesnt understand God, nor the ancient cultures of the
        > near east.
        > I watched a documentary about 2 pods of killer whales trying to kill a
        > grey whale calf by separating it from its mother. It was horrific, my
        > wife couldnt watch, and people on the boats around were crying and
        > wailing. One little girl about 12 years old said: "yes, it was horrible,
        > i felt so sorry for the baby, I imagined how I would feel. But thats how
        > they get their food to survive, so its ok."

        I saw the same documentary.  However, if you want to apply this principle then how do you justify a black widow spider mating and then killing the male spider?  Is it OK for human females to mate for procreation and then kill the male participant?  Hey, it's all about survival of the human race, so I "guess" it's OK!

        > There are rules. God does not punish those who are not guilty. God DOES
        > keep his word. God knows the state of each and every person no matter
        > how old. God can never be unjust. God has the right to punish those who
        > turn against him and war against him - and if you think about it, much
        > of the bible is about the war of humanity against God.

        No!  The OT is about the history and establishment of the Jewish religion and culture, which proclaimed the Messiah is coming.  They rejected Christ and a new religion was formed through the NT.  Problem is, they could not fully separate their upbringing from the new beliefs Christ offered.  

        > God uses human beings sometimes to carry out his judgements,

        If the judgment does not embody truth, beauty, and goodness, then it is not from God !!!

         >and those people will be held accountable for how they do it. Read up about Cyrus,
        > who was used to free Israel as God decreed, and yet his methods were
        > horrific (beating babies against rocks etc), and he was and is
        > accountable, and punished as justly fitting his crime.
        > War is a horrible gruesome thing, and it does in some sense defy logic
        > and reason, and yet it still occurs.

        The OT wars were about taking land, which belonged to someone else!  We know now this is not right.  Not only did they take everything, they had to kill the inhabitants as well.  We know this is not right.  Our reason and logic tells us this type of behavior is wrong.   God does not embody this !  It is not who He is.
        > Logic and reason are only a part of the story.
        > You appear to be missing  the biggest part of the story.

        Funny, I think the same thing about you.


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