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Re: now: Predestiny, freewill, pre-ordained Geoff's reply

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  • Karen
    Geoff said: So, does God see all of time at once? No. That doesn t make any sense really. Karen says: We live on an evolutionary planet of rebellion. The
    Message 1 of 38 , Feb 1, 2008

      Geoff said: So, does God see all of time at once? No. That doesn't
      make any sense really.
       
      Karen says:

      We live on an evolutionary planet of rebellion.  The evolving universe
      within time and space is not perfect.  In this you are correct.
      However, God is the Alpha and the Omega.  No one knows, not even God's
      celestial beings the hour and day of Christ returning to earth, but
      the Father in heaven does.  Thus, he does see into the future.  When
      past, present, and future are combined within God it is as if time
      has no beginning or end.  Our Father fragment is the spirit within
      ourselves that gives us life.  We move and have our being within
      Him. 

      Geoff says:

      I dont see how any of this negates what I said.

      [My point being that God does see all of time at once. He is much more than we comprehend.  Anything is possible.]


      We need more care with the words we use and how we state things, or
      we create illogical understandings about God, which then influence
      our
      theology and give us a false understanding of who God is.

      Karen said:

      Once again, you are trying to speak for God and you are saying what
      you believe is true.  I understand God.  I have a personal
      relationship with him.  I do not know his mind.  There are many ways
      that he can be viewed. 

      Geoff says:

      Actually, I am speaking for logic, which God created. Your personal
      relationship with God cannot defy logic.

      [How does one use logic for discerning God when he is greater than the logic of our finite minds?  We can attempt to comprehend it, but we will fall short on understanding Him.]


      God does not see all of time, He KNOWS all things which is not the
      same as "seeing".

      [How do you KNOW this?]

      Karen said:
      I beg to differ.  First think of God as a creator, then as a
      controller, and lastly as an infinite upholder.  The infinity of the
      perfection of God is such that it eternally constitutes him a mystery.
      And the greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the
      phenomenon of the divine indwelling of human minds. The manner in
      which God sojourns with the creatures of time is the most profound of
      all universe mysteries; the divine presence in the mind of man is the
      mystery of mysteries.  As a reality in human spiritual experience God
      is not a mystery. But when an attempt is made to make plain the
      realities of the spirit world to the physical minds of the material
      order, mystery appears: mysteries so subtle and so profound that only
      the faith-grasp of the God-knowing person can achieve the philosophic
      miracle of the recognition of the Infinite by the finite, the
      discernment of the eternal God.

      Geoff says:

      I'm sorry, I dont understand any of this. It seems you are saying that I
      am wrong because God is an unknowable mystery.

      [It is a phenomenon without scientific explanation.  A mystery we cannot comprehend.  In spite of this, we are able to have a personal relationship with God.  We don't have to understand, nor can we, all the internal workings of God.] 

      And yet, just above you said you had a personal relationship with him.

       [This IS the reason that we have a personal relationship with God.]

      How can he be an unknowable mystery if you have a personal relationship with him?

      [Wecannot understand and comprehend all the ways of God, but we can attempt to understand.]

      Geoff says:

      In order to have a personal relationship, you have to be able to know.
      I'd appreciate it if you actually argued for or against my points. This
      is a philosophy list after all.

      [I do not have to agree with you on all points.  Philosophy is very diverse.  We don't have to choose sides.  This isn't dodgeball.  Or is it?]

      Geoff says:

      How does a being that is infinite get from infinity past, to "now",
      and then to infinity in the future all at the same time? Its
      mind boggling and incomprehensible to us.

      [God is continually attempting to reveal himself to us.  He is changeless, but he can modify himself to suit our needs.  His motivation is love.  I don't think you are giving God enough credit with regards to what he can and cannot do.]

      In these ways and in many others, in ways unknown to you and utterly beyond finite comprehension, does the Father lovingly and willingly downstep and otherwise modify, dilute, and attenuate his infinity in order that he may be able to draw nearer the finite minds of his creature children.

      Karen said:

      If man is wholeheartedly spiritually motivated, unreservedly
      consecrated to the doing of the Father's will, then, since he is so
      certainly and so effectively spiritually endowed by the indwelling and
      divine Adjuster (the fragment of God within us), there cannot fail to
      materialize in that individual's experience the sublime consciousness
      of knowing God and the supernal assurance of surviving for the purpose
      of finding God by the progressive experience of becoming more and more
      like him.  [The desire to know God leads us into a state of finite comprehension.  He will reveal himself to his children.  He has an eternal plan for each of us.] Man is spiritually indwelt by a surviving Thought Adjuster (pre-personal fragment of God). If such a human mind is sincerely and spiritually motivated, if such a human soul desires to know God and become like him, honestly wants to do the Father's will, there exists
      no negative influence of mortal deprivation nor positive power of
      possible interference which can prevent such a divinely motivated soul
      from securely ascending to the portals of Paradise. 

      Geoff says:

      Again, you dont seem to actually directly comment on what i say.

      [I did comment on what you said.  You are not comprehending what I'm saying to you.]

      Geoff says:

      I don't understand all this "spiritual" talk. Please use plain english. Things
      like "thought adjusters" and "portals of paradise" are not terms
      understood by Christian philosophers, at least, not the unspiritual,
      secular ones such as myself.

      [All persons who believe in God are spiritual.  Some comprehend God more than others.  A `thought adjuster' is God's divine spark within us.  This spark holds God's eternal plan for ourselves within us.  He is constantly attempting to get us on track with HIS plan.  A portal is a threshold.  Paradise is where God resides.]


       


       


      --- In Christian-Philosophy@yahoogroups.com, "Karen" <keyisme2u@...> wrote:
      >
      >
      > Geoff said: So, does God see all of time at once? No. That doesn't make
      > any sense really.
      >
      > We live on an evolutionary planet of rebellion. The evolving universe
      > within time and space is not perfect. In this you are correct.
      > However, God is the Alpha and the Omega. No one knows, not even God's
      > celestial beings the hour and day of Christ returning to earth, but the
      > Father in heaven does. Thus, he does see into the future. When past,
      > present, and future are combined within God it is as if time has no
      > beginning or end. Our Father fragment is the spirit within ourselves
      > that gives us life. We move and have our being within Him.
      >
      > We need more care with the words we use and how we state things, or we
      > create illogical understandings about God, which then influence our
      > theology and give us a false understanding of who God is.
      >
      > Once again, you are trying to speak for God and you are saying what you
      > believe is true. I understand God. I have a personal relationship with
      > him. I do not know his mind. There are many ways that he can be
      > viewed.
      >
      >
      > God does not see all of time, He KNOWS all things which is not the same
      > as "seeing".
      >
      > I beg to differ. First think of God as a creator, then as a controller,
      > and lastly as an infinite upholder. The infinity of the perfection of
      > God is such that it eternally constitutes him a mystery. And the
      > greatest of all the unfathomable mysteries of God is the phenomenon of
      > the divine indwelling of human minds. The manner in which God sojourns
      > with the creatures of time is the most profound of all universe
      > mysteries; the divine presence in the mind of man is the mystery of
      > mysteries. As a reality in human spiritual experience God is not a
      > mystery. But when an attempt is made to make plain the realities of the
      > spirit world to the physical minds of the material order, mystery
      > appears: mysteries so subtle and so profound that only the faith-grasp
      > of the God-knowing person can achieve the philosophic miracle of the
      > recognition of the Infinite by the finite, the discernment of the
      > eternal God.
      >
      >
      > How does a being that is infinite get from infinity past, to "now", and
      > then to infinity in the future all at the same time? Its mind boggling
      > and incomprehensible to us.
      >
      >
      > If man is wholeheartedly spiritually motivated, unreservedly consecrated
      > to the doing of the Father's will, then, since he is so certainly and so
      > effectively spiritually endowed by the indwelling and divine Adjuster
      > (the fragment of God within us), there cannot fail to materialize in
      > that individual's experience the sublime consciousness of knowing God
      > and the supernal assurance of surviving for the purpose of finding God
      > by the progressive experience of becoming more and more like him. Man
      > is spiritually indwelt by a surviving Thought Adjuster (pre-personal
      > fragment of God). If such a human mind is sincerely and spiritually
      > motivated, if such a human soul desires to know God and become like him,
      > honestly wants to do the Father's will, there exists no negative
      > influence of mortal deprivation nor positive power of possible
      > interference which can prevent such a divinely motivated soul from
      > securely ascending to the portals of Paradise.
      >

    • geoff
      ... It means without beginning or end , eternal . Heb 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son
      Message 38 of 38 , Feb 6, 2008
        On Tue, 2008-02-05 at 17:24 +0000, gich2 wrote:

        >
        >
        > >>>1. Assuming God is 'infinite' (having no beginning or end), ... <<<
        >
        > Why do you start with God being infinite? I don’t ‘see’ the need for
        > this at all. What does it mean for something to be ‘infinite’?

        It means "without beginning or end", "eternal".
        Heb 7:3 Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning
        of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever
        How does a being get from eternity past to eternity future and create,
        if thats easier to understand.

        >
        >
        > >>>2. Assuming God is immeasurable (according to Scripture he is), how
        > does he become subject to time, which is at its most basic, a measure
        > of successive durations? <<<
        >
        > Well, I view God as temporal and, via the divine spark in each and
        > everyone of us, ‘everywhere’, which I suppose means the same as
        > ‘immeasurable’.

        How can something be immeasurable and measurable at the same time?
        God is either measurable (in time) or non measurable (out of time).
        If he is measurable by time, he can also conceivably be measurable by
        space, knowledge, power, Holiness, love, Goodness etc.

        > >>>3. If God is temporal, then God is limited by time, which
        > ultimately makes time more powerful than God.
        >
        > I don’t follow this. How can time be powerful?
        If God is in time, then God is subject to time, effectively trapped the
        same as we are. Therefore Time is more powerful than God.

        >
        > >>>[Geoff (earlier post): How can the all powerful God be trapped by
        > time?]<<<
        >
        > I don’t believe in an 'all powerful' God since it contradicts the
        > requirement that God be all-good ... and this 'all-good god' is the
        > god that I do believe in.

        As I said, if God isnt all powerful, all knowing, etc, then He is
        measurable, and conceivably limited in goodness. If aspects of his
        nature are limited, all aspects are.

        > >>>Not only this, but it also limits God in other areas, knowledge,
        > power and his ability to be "everywhere" (because if he cant be
        > "everywhen" then he doesn’t need to be "everywhere").<<<
        >
        > I’ve dealt with this above, I think. I’ve explained how a temporal god
        > can be everywhere (via the divine spark) and I don’t believe in a god
        > that is ‘everywhen’.

        See my comments above.

        > >>>4. If God is temporal, and his knowledge is limited to past and
        > present, then He can not make accurate predictions of the future, and
        > is limited in His ability to bring to pass his Plan for creation.<<<
        >
        > I don’t view his ‘plan’ as _precise_ in the way you seem to. Given the
        > existence of ‘creator’ god, It seems reasonable to consider that he
        > would have some plan for the world. With this in mind, I consider life
        > on earth to be some sort of preparation for ‘life after death’ and
        > it’s there (in the afterlife) that God’s ‘plan’ will become clearer to
        > us. I take the view that God views our lives on earth rather like an
        > interested, loving and concerned observer; but the details are outside
        > of his control.

        The plan seems fairly precise in Scripture. He also says He will bring
        certain things about, or that certain things will happen, and they do,
        quite specifically. In order to predestine, save, and conform people to
        the image of God, there has to be some precision about what God does.

        Why have a God if he isnt in control? Why set in motion this great
        salvic plan if he has no real say in how it works? Why become man and
        die on the cross if its not certain to work? I dont know about you, but
        an "interested, loving and concerned observer" doesnt appear to fit with
        what Scripture tells us about God. He appeared to, befriended and
        communed with Moses, led Israel on the exodus. He filled the temple and
        the mountains with his glorious presence. He came to earth in the form
        of jesus. Thats not an "interested, loving and concerned observer"-
        thats a God who gets his hands dirty.

        > >>>5. If God is limited by time and knowledge, then he can also be
        > limited in power, and also in love, goodness, mercy, etc.<<<
        >
        > Not at all. I agree he must be limited in power [see above] but not
        > necessarily, in love, goodness, mercy, etc.
        If God is infinite, immeasurable or unlimited in any aspect, He is in
        all. Its illogical that for example, an immeasurably Holy God isnt
        powerful enough to do anything about unholiness. Or an infinitely
        Merciful God isnt powerful enough to execute hhis mercy. An infinitely
        Just God not wise (wisdom is part of omniscience) enough to mete out his
        justice.

        If God is limited in any sense, he is limited in all senses.
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