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Re: U in TULIP Gerry

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  • geojosh1
    Ron - Yes, this is not clear and the answer you just gave did not help either. Let s look at answer number one below. 1. The word says our wills as enslaved
    Message 1 of 23 , Jun 1, 2007
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      Ron - Yes, this is not clear and the answer you just gave did not
      help either. Let's look at answer number one below.

      1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7. So far
      so good. --- The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability to
      make decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. --- Let's look
      at this to see what I mean.

      You say it is not that we dont have the ability to make decisions,
      (meaning that we do have the ability to make decisions), but the fact
      that the will is free.

      If we look at that statement another way we get this: You say - we do
      have the ability to make decisions, but the will is not free. This
      doesn't make sense to me.

      The next part of your answer in number one says: We obtain freedom
      when we come to Christ. I have no quarrell with that, but doesn't
      this sound to you that we obtain the freedom like you said, when, not
      before we come to Christ?

      I won't go into number 2 at this time except to ask you this
      question - was you not dead in sin when you came to Christ? I keep
      hearing a dead man can not come to Christ. If that is the case, no
      one can come to Christ for we all have sinned and fell short of the
      glory of God and the wages of sin is death.

      ...George

      --- In christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com, RZacc <rzacc2001@...>
      wrote:
      >
      > I don't think I am making any of this clear...sorry. It is not you
      who is stupid. I'm sorry.
      >
      > The issues I have, when trying to reconcole this with scripture is
      that
      > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7.
      The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability to make
      decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. Rom 6-7 says that
      we obtain freedom when we come to Christ.
      > 2. A fallen creature, who can not understand spiritual things,
      will not accept them, and is a hater of God in his natural state, can
      not suddenly, on His own, 'decide to accept Christ'. He is dead (Eph
      2) On what is that decision based? It would have to arbitrary and
      ignorant. In order for a person to make a commitment to Christ,
      which is part of saving faith, one must first need to understand the
      basics of the Gospel. Without God opening the heart and mind and
      will, that is impossible. Have you not tried to explain the Gospel
      to someone who just looked at you like you are nuts??
      >
      > We DO have a will, but we can not approach a holy God based upon
      that- it takes the power of God to accomplish.
      >
      > It is not that we do not have a 'will' - I hesitate to call it
      free, but if by that you mean that we can make a decision, without
      coersion and force, then I will grant the term. That is why I like
      to use the term volition- it is the ability to reason and make a
      decision. I think most people call that 'free will', but its not
      that simple.
      >
      > The other issue is that God's love for those who are saved began in
      eternity past, and He has been working in their lives to bring them
      to that point, and He will never abandon them. The idea that all it
      takes for us to come to Christ is 'a decision', or an act of our'
      free will'. displays an immature, man-centered understanding, in my
      opinion. The struggle we all have is to see things from God's
      perspective, not from our own. Ours is easy, no?
      >
      > Eph 2 says that we were 'by nature, children of wrath.' So, that
      means that we need a nature change. All the 'free will' in the world
      can not accomplish that.
      >
      > Well, I do appreciated the dialog, and as I said before, I argued
      for our free will for years. But I could not reconcile it with the
      bible.
      >
      > i need to go! Wife is yelling at me. Can I get back with you???
      Sorry.....
      >
      > Later!!!
      >
      > ron
      >
      >
      > ----- Original Message ----
      > From: geojosh1 <mab@...>
      > To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
      > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:23:39 PM
      > Subject: [christian-philosophy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
      >
      > Ron - Sorry to bother you again; I forgot, and I know you answered
      > this before, but how did you get around the fact that God is not a
      > respecter of persons as He picks and chooses only certain
      individuals
      > who have no free-will?
      >
      > I just cannot seem to get any Scriptures to fit God usuping my or
      > anyone elses ability to have a free-will and I have been studying
      the
      > Scriptures for over 30 years. Forgive me Ron for being so stupid in
      > understanding this and sorry for interrupting your dialog with
      Gerry.
      >
      > ...George
      >
      > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, "geojosh1" <mab@>
      > wrote:
      > >
      > > Ron - I was going to stay out of this and I still am, but I could
      > not
      > > help to note after reading your post or most of it - that - what
      > the
      > > naysayer say is right. You can make the Scriptures read whatever
      > you
      > > wish as long as it fits your doctrine. My free-will tells me
      > > different however. Have a great week-end.
      > >
      > > ...George
      > >
      > >
      > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
      > > ____________ __Ready for the edge of your seat?
      > > > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
      > > > http://tv.yahoo com/
      > > >
      > >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      >
      ______________________________________________________________________
      ______________
      > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
      > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
      > http://tv.yahoo.com/collections/265
      >
    • RZacc
      Howdy George! Good evening, brother. I hope your day went better than mine did...equipment! If it does not have four legs and hair, I d rather not deal with
      Message 2 of 23 , Jun 1, 2007
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        Howdy George!  Good evening, brother. I hope your day went better than mine did...equipment!  If it does not have four legs and hair, I'd rather not deal with it.  If God had wanted us to walk or drive,  He would not have given us horses.   :>)
         
        Anyway....I really don't see what the issue is here... 
        Unsaved people can only do one thing: sin.  (Heb 11:6, etc.) Nothing they can do is acceptable to God - even the 'good works' are done to the glory of man.  If a person is to be saved, God must begin the work in the heart.  He regenerates the person so that they will hear, can see, understand, and then they desire.  They then act...placing their trust in Christ. 
         
        The contention here is that people attribute their salvation to their 'free will', whether they understand that to mean their ability to make decisions, or a common ability that all men share, and which enables any person, without the work of the Holy Spirit in their hearts FIRST, to commit to live for Christ. 
        Our will is enslaved to sin, and we are free, in our natural state to make decisions only within the confines and abilities of our nature.  We can not fly, or live under water- that ability is not in our nature.  Neither is the ability to see and understand spiritual truths (1 Cor 2:14).  That must be a work of God which involves the impartation of a new nature.  It is a whole new creation!!!  (Gal 6:15, 2 Cor 5:17)
         
        Grace is the active agent in our salvation - not 'free will'.    When we attribute our salvation to our own ability to understand and believe, we ignore and neglect the work of God which causes it all.  HE not only provided the sacrifice, He also chose every believer before the foundation of the world, and opened their eyes, mind, heart, drew them and brought them to the place where they needed to be, in order  to exercise Faith, which He also placed in their heart.  If you look at Eph 1:4-12 closely, observe that there is one parenthisis in verse :13, which is our part: "Having also believed". It is almost an afterthought.  Everything else is the work of God!  Paul's purpose is to get us to take our eyes off of ourselves, in this great transaction called 'salvation', and see GOD behind it all! Look at his prayers for us in Ch 1 and 3!
         Understand His great love for US - YOU!  specifically YOU.  It is like a husband and wife (God's analogy)- Would it be acceptable if a wife knew that his or her husband had the same love for her that he had for every other woman?  I dont know about your wife, but mine?  I dont think so.  Christ loved His bride with a different love than that which He loved the world. 
         
        Faith is a gift- not to all men, but to His children.  Repentance is a gift- not to all men, but to His children.  His agape is a gift - {and a cause} - not to all men, but to His children.   It's about time that the Church, the bride of Christ, begin to give ALL Praise and Honor and Glory to the One who called them, chose them!

        It is almost an insult, as I see it, to attribute the work of God in me, which required the same power it took to raise Christ for the dead, to my 'free will'.  It is the last dying attempt of sinful man to take some credit for his salvation.  And that, even when faith itself is a gift from Him who loved us FIRST! 
         
        It might help to look at one of several passages in the Old Covenant which talk about the New covenant: Jer 31. 
        31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,

         32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them," declares the LORD.

         33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people.

         34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their  sin I will remember no more."

            The people who are part of the New Covenant have His law in their hearts...that is God's doing. They have GOD as their God. They know Him because He has taught them (John 6:45).  They are not partakers of the new covenant because they had the free will to do it.  If that was the case, what attribute would be responsible for that 'decision'??  "Maybe I am a Christian because I was smarter than the guy next door. Or, maybe I was a better listener.  maybe just a better guy?  No, it was because I have a kind heart, and always obeyed my parents!   What made me 'choose'??  Well, it was just my free will.. No outside influence- I could have chosen Buddah, or Allah.  But it just happened to be Jesus."    Hogwash!  I am a Christian because and only because God!  I was dead..but God!  (Eph 2:1-4.).  If left to my own will, I would be a God-hater until I took my last breath...and so would you. That is depravity.  remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world!!!!  [Ephesians 2:12:]
         
        Wow, the more I learn about the Love of God, the more I want to serve Him - and SHOUT!!!   
         
        George: How about you? How is God using you?   
         
        I'm praying that He will use you and be glorified in all you do.  Seek to understand His love for you. It will motivate you to serve Him and commit to Him even more deeply.
         
        Thank you for the exchange!
         
        In His love,
        rz
         

        Have courage.  Stand always for the truth, remain dependant upon Him and humble before His word, and God will use you to change your world!

         
         
         
         
        ----- Original Message ----
        From: geojosh1 <mab@...>
        To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 6:52:29 AM
        Subject: [christian-philosophy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry

        Ron - Yes, this is not clear and the answer you just gave did not
        help either. Let's look at answer number one below.

        1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7. So far
        so good. --- The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability to
        make decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. --- Let's look
        at this to see what I mean.

        You say it is not that we dont have the ability to make decisions,
        (meaning that we do have the ability to make decisions), but the fact
        that the will is free.

        If we look at that statement another way we get this: You say - we do
        have the ability to make decisions, but the will is not free. This
        doesn't make sense to me.

        The next part of your answer in number one says: We obtain freedom
        when we come to Christ. I have no quarrell with that, but doesn't
        this sound to you that we obtain the freedom like you said, when, not
        before we come to Christ?

        I won't go into number 2 at this time except to ask you this
        question - was you not dead in sin when you came to Christ? I keep
        hearing a dead man can not come to Christ. If that is the case, no
        one can come to Christ for we all have sinned and fell short of the
        glory of God and the wages of sin is death.

        ...George

        --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, RZacc <rzacc2001@. ..>
        wrote:

        >
        > I don't think I am making any of this clear...sorry. It is not you
        who is stupid. I'm sorry.
        >
        > The issues I have, when trying to reconcole this with scripture is
        that
        > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7.
        The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability to make
        decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. Rom 6-7 says that
        we obtain freedom when we come to Christ.
        > 2. A fallen creature, who can not understand spiritual things,
        will not accept them, and is a hater of God in his natural state, can
        not suddenly, on His own, 'decide to accept Christ'. He is dead (Eph
        2) On what is that decision based? It would have to arbitrary and
        ignorant. In order for a person to make a commitment to Christ,
        which is part of saving faith, one must first need to understand the
        basics of the Gospel. Without God opening the heart and mind and
        will, that is impossible. Have you not tried to explain the Gospel
        to someone who just looked at you like you are nuts??
        >
        > We DO have a will, but we can not approach a holy God based upon
        that- it takes the power of God to accomplish.
        >
        > It is not that we do not have a 'will' - I hesitate to call it
        free, but if by that you mean that we can make a decision, without
        coersion and force, then I will grant the term. That is why I like
        to use the term volition- it is the ability to reason and make a
        decision. I think most people call that 'free will', but its not
        that simple.
        >
        > The other issue is that God's love for those who are saved began in
        eternity past, and He has been working in their lives to bring them
        to that point, and He will never abandon them. The idea that all it
        takes for us to come to Christ is 'a decision', or an act of our'
        free will'. displays an immature, man-centered understanding, in my
        opinion. The struggle we all have is to see things from God's
        perspective, not from our own. Ours is easy, no?
        >
        > Eph 2 says that we were 'by nature, children of wrath.' So, that
        means that we need a nature change. All the 'free will' in the world
        can not accomplish that.
        >
        > Well, I do appreciated the dialog, and as I said before, I argued
        for our free will for years. But I could not reconcile it with the
        bible.
        >
        > i need to go! Wife is yelling at me. Can I get back with you???
        Sorry.....
        >
        > Later!!!
        >
        > ron
        >
        >
        > ----- Original Message ----
        > From: geojosh1 <mab@...>
        > To: christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com
        > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:23:39 PM
        > Subject: [christian-philosop hy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
        >
        > Ron - Sorry to bother you again; I forgot, and I know you answered
        > this before, but how did you get around the fact that God is not a
        > respecter of persons as He picks and chooses only certain
        individuals
        > who have no free-will?
        >
        > I just cannot seem to get any Scriptures to fit God usuping my or
        > anyone elses ability to have a free-will and I have been studying
        the
        > Scriptures for over 30 years.
        Forgive me Ron for being so stupid in
        > understanding this and sorry for interrupting your dialog with
        Gerry.
        >
        > ...George
        >
        > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, "geojosh1" <mab@>
        > wrote:
        > >
        > > Ron - I was going to stay out of this and I still am, but I could
        > not
        > > help to note after reading your post or most of it - that - what
        > the
        > > naysayer say is right. You can make the Scriptures read whatever
        > you
        > > wish as long as it fits your doctrine. My free-will tells me
        > > different however. Have a great week-end.
        > >
        > > ...George
        > >
        > >
        > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        > > ____________ __Ready for the edge of your seat?
        > > > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
        > > >
        target=_blank rel=nofollow>http://tv.yahoo. com/
        > > >
        > >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        >
        ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
        ____________ __
        > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
        > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
        > http://tv.yahoo. com/collections/ 265
        >




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      • clontzjm
        Hello Ron, Good luck with the lions and the bears! We are having a tropical storm here. Ron: Unsaved people can only do one thing: sin. (Heb 11:6, etc.)
        Message 3 of 23 , Jun 2, 2007
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          Hello Ron,

          Good luck with the lions and the bears! We are having a tropical
          storm here.

          Ron: Unsaved people can only do one thing: sin. (Heb 11:6, etc.)
          Nothing they can do is acceptable to God - even the 'good works' are
          done to the glory of man. If a person is to be saved, God must
          begin the work in the heart. He regenerates the person so that they
          will hear, can see, understand, and then they desire. They then
          act...placing their trust in Christ.

          Jerry: Are you saying that God beginning the work in the heart is
          regeneration? What about the Son? Regeneration involves the Spirit
          and from what I understand a person who is regenerated is in a state
          of salvation. How is the Son involved with your salvation – if you
          are regenerated through the Spirit and then saved then are you
          saying that the Son isn't involved until after you are saved? How is
          preaching involved with your salvation – if you can't understand
          preaching until after you are saved then preaching salvation to the
          unsaved is pointless isn't it? The parable of the sower Matthew 13:3-
          23 indicates that the preaching of the gospel (the seed) works on
          people's hearts including the unsaved and the saved although not in
          the same ways. The first group does not understand so nothing
          happens. The second group realize something and get excited but
          aren't interested once hardship for what they've heard occurs. The
          third group also realizes something but they choose the things of
          this world – like Jezebel in Revelation 2:20-21. The fourth group
          understands spiritually. The action of the word (the Son and the
          preaching of the kingdom) affects the groups in different ways.
          There are several important points here:

          1) Three of the four groups do realize something in the
          preaching. The word of God at its literal level can be somewhat
          comprehended by a great deal of people. Some of them will understand
          it spiritually (the fourth group) while most of them will only
          understand it literally. However it will be impossible to convince
          those who only understand it literally that they don't understand it
          spiritually. Spiritual understanding can not be given by flesh and
          blood but only by God. Only if one is regenerated by the Spirit can
          they understand the word spiritually. However a large number of
          people who believe that they understand the word spiritually in
          reality only have a literal understanding.
          2) Two of the groups choose not to follow what they realize
          from the literal aspects of the Word. They pursue riches or the
          other things of this world even though they realize from that they
          should do otherwise. Those who aren't regenerated are capable of
          realizing the literal aspects from the word of God and invariably
          know that they aren't justified in their hearts because their hearts
          are in contradiction to what they realize on a literal level to be
          correct. The word of God is not just a spiritual word but it also
          has a literal meaning that has great value. It is only the first
          group that can't grasp the literal meaning of the Word of God. Just
          because someone can grasp the literal meaning of the word and try to
          adopt the literal precepts is not different than someone who grasps
          the concepts of any ethical code. And yes, they will do some things
          different in their lives many of them beneficial. After all, the
          word of God contains on a literal level things that make good common
          sense. All human beings are capable of following common sense. Some
          of the postings recently in this group are disingenuous in not
          recognizing that many who are unregenerate can recognize and adopt
          some of the common sense or literal portions of the word of God.

          Jerry

          --- In christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com, RZacc <rzacc2001@...>
          wrote:
          >
          > Howdy George! Good evening, brother. I hope your day went better
          than mine did...equipment! If it does not have four legs and hair,
          I'd rather not deal with it. If God had wanted us to walk or
          drive, He would not have given us horses. :>)
          >
          > Anyway....I really don't see what the issue is here...
          > Unsaved people can only do one thing: sin. (Heb 11:6, etc.)
          Nothing they can do is acceptable to God - even the 'good works' are
          done to the glory of man. If a person is to be saved, God must
          begin the work in the heart. He regenerates the person so that they
          will hear, can see, understand, and then they desire. They then
          act...placing their trust in Christ.
          >
          > The contention here is that people attribute their salvation to
          their 'free will', whether they understand that to mean their
          ability to make decisions, or a common ability that all men share,
          and which enables any person, without the work of the Holy Spirit in
          their hearts FIRST, to commit to live for Christ.
          > Our will is enslaved to sin, and we are free, in our natural state
          to make decisions only within the confines and abilities of our
          nature. We can not fly, or live under water- that ability is not in
          our nature. Neither is the ability to see and understand spiritual
          truths (1 Cor 2:14). That must be a work of God which involves the
          impartation of a new nature. It is a whole new creation!!! (Gal
          6:15, 2 Cor 5:17)
          >
          > Grace is the active agent in our salvation - not 'free will'.
          When we attribute our salvation to our own ability to understand and
          believe, we ignore and neglect the work of God which causes it all.
          HE not only provided the sacrifice, He also chose every believer
          before the foundation of the world, and opened their eyes, mind,
          heart, drew them and brought them to the place where they needed to
          be, in order to exercise Faith, which He also placed in their
          heart. If you look at Eph 1:4-12 closely, observe that there is one
          parenthisis in verse :13, which is our part: "Having also believed".
          It is almost an afterthought. Everything else is the work of God!
          Paul's purpose is to get us to take our eyes off of ourselves, in
          this great transaction called 'salvation', and see GOD behind it
          all! Look at his prayers for us in Ch 1 and 3!
          > Understand His great love for US - YOU! specifically YOU. It is
          like a husband and wife (God's analogy)- Would it be acceptable if a
          wife knew that his or her husband had the same love for her that he
          had for every other woman? I dont know about your wife, but mine?
          I dont think so. Christ loved His bride with a different love than
          that which He loved the world.
          >
          > Faith is a gift- not to all men, but to His children. Repentance
          is a gift- not to all men, but to His children. His agape is a
          gift - {and a cause} - not to all men, but to His children. It's
          about time that the Church, the bride of Christ, begin to give ALL
          Praise and Honor and Glory to the One who called them, chose them!
          >
          > It is almost an insult, as I see it, to attribute the work of God
          in me, which required the same power it took to raise Christ for the
          dead, to my 'free will'. It is the last dying attempt of sinful man
          to take some credit for his salvation. And that, even when faith
          itself is a gift from Him who loved us FIRST!
          >
          > It might help to look at one of several passages in the Old
          Covenant which talk about the New covenant: Jer 31.
          > 31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make
          a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
          > 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the
          day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,
          My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,"
          declares the LORD.
          > 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of
          Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law
          within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their
          God, and they shall be My people.
          > 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man
          his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me,
          from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the
          LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will
          remember no more."
          >
          > The people who are part of the New Covenant have His law in
          their hearts...that is God's doing. They have GOD as their God. They
          know Him because He has taught them (John 6:45). They are not
          partakers of the new covenant because they had the free will to do
          it. If that was the case, what attribute would be responsible for
          that 'decision'?? "Maybe I am a Christian because I was smarter
          than the guy next door. Or, maybe I was a better listener. maybe
          just a better guy? No, it was because I have a kind heart, and
          always obeyed my parents! What made me 'choose'?? Well, it was
          just my free will.. No outside influence- I could have chosen
          Buddah, or Allah. But it just happened to be Jesus." Hogwash! I
          am a Christian because and only because God! I was dead..but God!
          (Eph 2:1-4.). If left to my own will, I would be a God-hater until
          I took my last breath...and so would you. That is depravity.
          remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded
          > from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants
          of promise, having no hope and without God in the world!!!!
          [Ephesians 2:12:]
          >
          > Wow, the more I learn about the Love of God, the more I want to
          serve Him - and SHOUT!!!
          >
          > George: How about you? How is God using you?
          >
          > I'm praying that He will use you and be glorified in all you do.
          Seek to understand His love for you. It will motivate you to serve
          Him and commit to Him even more deeply.
          >
          > Thank you for the exchange!
          >
          > In His love,
          > rz
          >
          > Have courage. Stand always for the truth, remain dependant upon
          Him and humble before His word, and God will use you to change your
          world!
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message ----
          > From: geojosh1 <mab@...>
          > To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
          > Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 6:52:29 AM
          > Subject: [christian-philosophy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
          >
          > Ron - Yes, this is not clear and the answer you just gave did not
          > help either. Let's look at answer number one below.
          >
          > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7. So
          far
          > so good. --- The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability
          to
          > make decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. --- Let's
          look
          > at this to see what I mean.
          >
          > You say it is not that we dont have the ability to make decisions,
          > (meaning that we do have the ability to make decisions), but the
          fact
          > that the will is free.
          >
          > If we look at that statement another way we get this: You say - we
          do
          > have the ability to make decisions, but the will is not free. This
          > doesn't make sense to me.
          >
          > The next part of your answer in number one says: We obtain freedom
          > when we come to Christ. I have no quarrell with that, but doesn't
          > this sound to you that we obtain the freedom like you said, when,
          not
          > before we come to Christ?
          >
          > I won't go into number 2 at this time except to ask you this
          > question - was you not dead in sin when you came to Christ? I keep
          > hearing a dead man can not come to Christ. If that is the case, no
          > one can come to Christ for we all have sinned and fell short of
          the
          > glory of God and the wages of sin is death.
          >
          > ...George
          >
          > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, RZacc
          <rzacc2001@ ..>
          > wrote:
          > >
          > > I don't think I am making any of this clear...sorry. It is not
          you
          > who is stupid. I'm sorry.
          > >
          > > The issues I have, when trying to reconcole this with scripture
          is
          > that
          > > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7.
          > The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability to make
          > decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. Rom 6-7 says that
          > we obtain freedom when we come to Christ.
          > > 2. A fallen creature, who can not understand spiritual things,
          > will not accept them, and is a hater of God in his natural state,
          can
          > not suddenly, on His own, 'decide to accept Christ'. He is dead
          (Eph
          > 2) On what is that decision based? It would have to arbitrary and
          > ignorant. In order for a person to make a commitment to Christ,
          > which is part of saving faith, one must first need to understand
          the
          > basics of the Gospel. Without God opening the heart and mind and
          > will, that is impossible. Have you not tried to explain the Gospel
          > to someone who just looked at you like you are nuts??
          > >
          > > We DO have a will, but we can not approach a holy God based upon
          > that- it takes the power of God to accomplish.
          > >
          > > It is not that we do not have a 'will' - I hesitate to call it
          > free, but if by that you mean that we can make a decision, without
          > coersion and force, then I will grant the term. That is why I like
          > to use the term volition- it is the ability to reason and make a
          > decision. I think most people call that 'free will', but its not
          > that simple.
          > >
          > > The other issue is that God's love for those who are saved began
          in
          > eternity past, and He has been working in their lives to bring
          them
          > to that point, and He will never abandon them. The idea that all
          it
          > takes for us to come to Christ is 'a decision', or an act of our'
          > free will'. displays an immature, man-centered understanding, in
          my
          > opinion. The struggle we all have is to see things from God's
          > perspective, not from our own. Ours is easy, no?
          > >
          > > Eph 2 says that we were 'by nature, children of wrath.' So, that
          > means that we need a nature change. All the 'free will' in the
          world
          > can not accomplish that.
          > >
          > > Well, I do appreciated the dialog, and as I said before, I
          argued
          > for our free will for years. But I could not reconcile it with the
          > bible.
          > >
          > > i need to go! Wife is yelling at me. Can I get back with you???
          > Sorry.....
          > >
          > > Later!!!
          > >
          > > ron
          > >
          > >
          > > ----- Original Message ----
          > > From: geojosh1 <mab@>
          > > To: christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com
          > > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:23:39 PM
          > > Subject: [christian-philosop hy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
          > >
          > > Ron - Sorry to bother you again; I forgot, and I know you
          answered
          > > this before, but how did you get around the fact that God is not
          a
          > > respecter of persons as He picks and chooses only certain
          > individuals
          > > who have no free-will?
          > >
          > > I just cannot seem to get any Scriptures to fit God usuping my
          or
          > > anyone elses ability to have a free-will and I have been
          studying
          > the
          > > Scriptures for over 30 years. Forgive me Ron for being so stupid
          in
          > > understanding this and sorry for interrupting your dialog with
          > Gerry.
          > >
          > > ...George
          > >
          > > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, "geojosh1" <mab@>
          > > wrote:
          > > >
          > > > Ron - I was going to stay out of this and I still am, but I
          could
          > > not
          > > > help to note after reading your post or most of it - that -
          what
          > > the
          > > > naysayer say is right. You can make the Scriptures read
          whatever
          > > you
          > > > wish as long as it fits your doctrine. My free-will tells me
          > > > different however. Have a great week-end.
          > > >
          > > > ...George
          > > >
          > > >
          > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > > > ____________ __Ready for the edge of your seat?
          > > > > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
          > > > > http://tv.yahoo com/
          > > > >
          > > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
          > ____________ __
          > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
          > > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
          > > http://tv.yahoo com/collections/ 265
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          >
          _____________________________________________________________________
          _______________
          > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
          user panel and lay it on us.
          http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
          >
        • clontzjm
          Hello Ron, You said: The contention here is that people attribute their salvation to their free will , whether they understand that to mean their ability to
          Message 4 of 23 , Jun 2, 2007
          • 0 Attachment
            Hello Ron,

            You said: The contention here is that people attribute their
            salvation to their 'free will', whether they understand that to mean
            their ability to make decisions, or a common ability that all men
            share, and which enables any person, without the work of the Holy
            Spirit in their hearts FIRST, to commit to live for Christ.

            Jerry: The contention is that people like Jezebel in Revelation 2:20-
            21 can choose not to repent i.e. reject God. Below are verses that
            support the concept that people can reject God.

            Matthew 21:42 The stone which the builders REJECTed, The same was
            made the head of the corner…

            Mark 7:9 Full well do you REJECT the commandment of God, that you
            may keep your tradition.

            Mark 8:31 And he began to teach them, that the Son of man must
            suffer many things, and be REJECTed by the elders, and the chief
            priests, and the scribes, and be killed, and after three days rise
            again.

            Luke 7:30 Lu 7:30 But the Pharisees and the lawyers REJECTed for
            themselves the counsel of God, being not baptized of him.

            Luke 10:16 He that heareth you heareth me; and he that REJECTeth you
            REJECTeth me; and he that REJECTeth me REJECTeth him that sent me.

            1Thessalonians Therefore he that REJECTeth, REJECTeth not man, but
            God, who gives his Holy Spirit unto you.

            1Peter 2:4 unto whom coming, a living stone, REJECTed indeed of men,
            but with God elect, precious.

            Jerry


            --- In christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com, RZacc <rzacc2001@...>
            wrote:
            >
            > Howdy George! Good evening, brother. I hope your day went better
            than mine did...equipment! If it does not have four legs and hair,
            I'd rather not deal with it. If God had wanted us to walk or
            drive, He would not have given us horses. :>)
            >
            > Anyway....I really don't see what the issue is here...
            > Unsaved people can only do one thing: sin. (Heb 11:6, etc.)
            Nothing they can do is acceptable to God - even the 'good works' are
            done to the glory of man. If a person is to be saved, God must
            begin the work in the heart. He regenerates the person so that they
            will hear, can see, understand, and then they desire. They then
            act...placing their trust in Christ.
            >
            > The contention here is that people attribute their salvation to
            their 'free will', whether they understand that to mean their
            ability to make decisions, or a common ability that all men share,
            and which enables any person, without the work of the Holy Spirit in
            their hearts FIRST, to commit to live for Christ.
            > Our will is enslaved to sin, and we are free, in our natural state
            to make decisions only within the confines and abilities of our
            nature. We can not fly, or live under water- that ability is not in
            our nature. Neither is the ability to see and understand spiritual
            truths (1 Cor 2:14). That must be a work of God which involves the
            impartation of a new nature. It is a whole new creation!!! (Gal
            6:15, 2 Cor 5:17)
            >
            > Grace is the active agent in our salvation - not 'free will'.
            When we attribute our salvation to our own ability to understand and
            believe, we ignore and neglect the work of God which causes it all.
            HE not only provided the sacrifice, He also chose every believer
            before the foundation of the world, and opened their eyes, mind,
            heart, drew them and brought them to the place where they needed to
            be, in order to exercise Faith, which He also placed in their
            heart. If you look at Eph 1:4-12 closely, observe that there is one
            parenthisis in verse :13, which is our part: "Having also believed".
            It is almost an afterthought. Everything else is the work of God!
            Paul's purpose is to get us to take our eyes off of ourselves, in
            this great transaction called 'salvation', and see GOD behind it
            all! Look at his prayers for us in Ch 1 and 3!
            > Understand His great love for US - YOU! specifically YOU. It is
            like a husband and wife (God's analogy)- Would it be acceptable if a
            wife knew that his or her husband had the same love for her that he
            had for every other woman? I dont know about your wife, but mine?
            I dont think so. Christ loved His bride with a different love than
            that which He loved the world.
            >
            > Faith is a gift- not to all men, but to His children. Repentance
            is a gift- not to all men, but to His children. His agape is a
            gift - {and a cause} - not to all men, but to His children. It's
            about time that the Church, the bride of Christ, begin to give ALL
            Praise and Honor and Glory to the One who called them, chose them!
            >
            > It is almost an insult, as I see it, to attribute the work of God
            in me, which required the same power it took to raise Christ for the
            dead, to my 'free will'. It is the last dying attempt of sinful man
            to take some credit for his salvation. And that, even when faith
            itself is a gift from Him who loved us FIRST!
            >
            > It might help to look at one of several passages in the Old
            Covenant which talk about the New covenant: Jer 31.
            > 31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make
            a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
            > 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the
            day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,
            My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,"
            declares the LORD.
            > 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of
            Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law
            within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their
            God, and they shall be My people.
            > 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man
            his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me,
            from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the
            LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will
            remember no more."
            >
            > The people who are part of the New Covenant have His law in
            their hearts...that is God's doing. They have GOD as their God. They
            know Him because He has taught them (John 6:45). They are not
            partakers of the new covenant because they had the free will to do
            it. If that was the case, what attribute would be responsible for
            that 'decision'?? "Maybe I am a Christian because I was smarter
            than the guy next door. Or, maybe I was a better listener. maybe
            just a better guy? No, it was because I have a kind heart, and
            always obeyed my parents! What made me 'choose'?? Well, it was
            just my free will.. No outside influence- I could have chosen
            Buddah, or Allah. But it just happened to be Jesus." Hogwash! I
            am a Christian because and only because God! I was dead..but God!
            (Eph 2:1-4.). If left to my own will, I would be a God-hater until
            I took my last breath...and so would you. That is depravity.
            remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded
            > from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants
            of promise, having no hope and without God in the world!!!!
            [Ephesians 2:12:]
            >
            > Wow, the more I learn about the Love of God, the more I want to
            serve Him - and SHOUT!!!
            >
            > George: How about you? How is God using you?
            >
            > I'm praying that He will use you and be glorified in all you do.
            Seek to understand His love for you. It will motivate you to serve
            Him and commit to Him even more deeply.
            >
            > Thank you for the exchange!
            >
            > In His love,
            > rz
            >
            > Have courage. Stand always for the truth, remain dependant upon
            Him and humble before His word, and God will use you to change your
            world!
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            > ----- Original Message ----
            > From: geojosh1 <mab@...>
            > To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
            > Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 6:52:29 AM
            > Subject: [christian-philosophy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
            >
            > Ron - Yes, this is not clear and the answer you just gave did not
            > help either. Let's look at answer number one below.
            >
            > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7. So
            far
            > so good. --- The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability
            to
            > make decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. --- Let's
            look
            > at this to see what I mean.
            >
            > You say it is not that we dont have the ability to make decisions,
            > (meaning that we do have the ability to make decisions), but the
            fact
            > that the will is free.
            >
            > If we look at that statement another way we get this: You say - we
            do
            > have the ability to make decisions, but the will is not free. This
            > doesn't make sense to me.
            >
            > The next part of your answer in number one says: We obtain freedom
            > when we come to Christ. I have no quarrell with that, but doesn't
            > this sound to you that we obtain the freedom like you said, when,
            not
            > before we come to Christ?
            >
            > I won't go into number 2 at this time except to ask you this
            > question - was you not dead in sin when you came to Christ? I keep
            > hearing a dead man can not come to Christ. If that is the case, no
            > one can come to Christ for we all have sinned and fell short of
            the
            > glory of God and the wages of sin is death.
            >
            > ...George
            >
            > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, RZacc
            <rzacc2001@ ..>
            > wrote:
            > >
            > > I don't think I am making any of this clear...sorry. It is not
            you
            > who is stupid. I'm sorry.
            > >
            > > The issues I have, when trying to reconcole this with scripture
            is
            > that
            > > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7.
            > The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability to make
            > decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. Rom 6-7 says that
            > we obtain freedom when we come to Christ.
            > > 2. A fallen creature, who can not understand spiritual things,
            > will not accept them, and is a hater of God in his natural state,
            can
            > not suddenly, on His own, 'decide to accept Christ'. He is dead
            (Eph
            > 2) On what is that decision based? It would have to arbitrary and
            > ignorant. In order for a person to make a commitment to Christ,
            > which is part of saving faith, one must first need to understand
            the
            > basics of the Gospel. Without God opening the heart and mind and
            > will, that is impossible. Have you not tried to explain the Gospel
            > to someone who just looked at you like you are nuts??
            > >
            > > We DO have a will, but we can not approach a holy God based upon
            > that- it takes the power of God to accomplish.
            > >
            > > It is not that we do not have a 'will' - I hesitate to call it
            > free, but if by that you mean that we can make a decision, without
            > coersion and force, then I will grant the term. That is why I like
            > to use the term volition- it is the ability to reason and make a
            > decision. I think most people call that 'free will', but its not
            > that simple.
            > >
            > > The other issue is that God's love for those who are saved began
            in
            > eternity past, and He has been working in their lives to bring
            them
            > to that point, and He will never abandon them. The idea that all
            it
            > takes for us to come to Christ is 'a decision', or an act of our'
            > free will'. displays an immature, man-centered understanding, in
            my
            > opinion. The struggle we all have is to see things from God's
            > perspective, not from our own. Ours is easy, no?
            > >
            > > Eph 2 says that we were 'by nature, children of wrath.' So, that
            > means that we need a nature change. All the 'free will' in the
            world
            > can not accomplish that.
            > >
            > > Well, I do appreciated the dialog, and as I said before, I
            argued
            > for our free will for years. But I could not reconcile it with the
            > bible.
            > >
            > > i need to go! Wife is yelling at me. Can I get back with you???
            > Sorry.....
            > >
            > > Later!!!
            > >
            > > ron
            > >
            > >
            > > ----- Original Message ----
            > > From: geojosh1 <mab@>
            > > To: christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com
            > > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:23:39 PM
            > > Subject: [christian-philosop hy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
            > >
            > > Ron - Sorry to bother you again; I forgot, and I know you
            answered
            > > this before, but how did you get around the fact that God is not
            a
            > > respecter of persons as He picks and chooses only certain
            > individuals
            > > who have no free-will?
            > >
            > > I just cannot seem to get any Scriptures to fit God usuping my
            or
            > > anyone elses ability to have a free-will and I have been
            studying
            > the
            > > Scriptures for over 30 years. Forgive me Ron for being so stupid
            in
            > > understanding this and sorry for interrupting your dialog with
            > Gerry.
            > >
            > > ...George
            > >
            > > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, "geojosh1" <mab@>
            > > wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Ron - I was going to stay out of this and I still am, but I
            could
            > > not
            > > > help to note after reading your post or most of it - that -
            what
            > > the
            > > > naysayer say is right. You can make the Scriptures read
            whatever
            > > you
            > > > wish as long as it fits your doctrine. My free-will tells me
            > > > different however. Have a great week-end.
            > > >
            > > > ...George
            > > >
            > > >
            > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            > > > ____________ __Ready for the edge of your seat?
            > > > > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
            > > > > http://tv.yahoo com/
            > > > >
            > > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > >
            > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
            > ____________ __
            > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
            > > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's Guilty Pleasures list.
            > > http://tv.yahoo com/collections/ 265
            > >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            >
            _____________________________________________________________________
            _______________
            > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
            user panel and lay it on us.
            http://surveylink.yahoo.com/gmrs/yahoo_panel_invite.asp?a=7
            >
          • RZacc
            Tropical storm? Where do you live??? r ... From: clontzjm To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:24:19
            Message 5 of 23 , Jun 2, 2007
            • 0 Attachment
              Tropical storm? Where do you live???
              r

              ----- Original Message ----
              From: clontzjm <clontzjm@...>
              To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, June 2, 2007 8:24:19 AM
              Subject: [christian-philosophy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry

              Hello Ron,

              Good luck with the lions and the bears! We are having a tropical
              storm here.

              Ron: Unsaved people can only do one thing: sin. (Heb 11:6, etc.)
              Nothing they can do is acceptable to God - even the 'good works' are
              done to the glory of man. If a person is to be saved, God must
              begin the work in the heart. He regenerates the person so that they
              will hear, can see, understand, and then they desire. They then
              act...placing their trust in Christ.

              Jerry: Are you saying that God beginning the work in the heart is
              regeneration? What about the Son? Regeneration involves the Spirit
              and from what I understand a person who is regenerated is in a state
              of salvation. How is the Son involved with your salvation – if you
              are regenerated through the Spirit and then saved then are you
              saying that the Son isn't involved until after you are saved? How is
              preaching involved with your salvation – if you can't understand
              preaching until after you are saved then preaching salvation to the
              unsaved is pointless isn't it? The parable of the sower Matthew 13:3-
              23 indicates that the preaching of the gospel (the seed) works on
              people's hearts including the unsaved and the saved although not in
              the same ways. The first group does not understand so nothing
              happens. The second group realize something and get excited but
              aren't interested once hardship for what they've heard occurs. The
              third group also realizes something but they choose the things of
              this world – like Jezebel in Revelation 2:20-21. The fourth group
              understands spiritually. The action of the word (the Son and the
              preaching of the kingdom) affects the groups in different ways.
              There are several important points here:

              1) Three of the four groups do realize something in the
              preaching. The word of God at its literal level can be somewhat
              comprehended by a great deal of people. Some of them will understand
              it spiritually (the fourth group) while most of them will only
              understand it literally. However it will be impossible to convince
              those who only understand it literally that they don't understand it
              spiritually. Spiritual understanding can not be given by flesh and
              blood but only by God. Only if one is regenerated by the Spirit can
              they understand the word spiritually. However a large number of
              people who believe that they understand the word spiritually in
              reality only have a literal understanding.
              2) Two of the groups choose not to follow what they realize
              from the literal aspects of the Word. They pursue riches or the
              other things of this world even though they realize from that they
              should do otherwise. Those who aren't regenerated are capable of
              realizing the literal aspects from the word of God and invariably
              know that they aren't justified in their hearts because their hearts
              are in contradiction to what they realize on a literal level to be
              correct. The word of God is not just a spiritual word but it also
              has a literal meaning that has great value. It is only the first
              group that can't grasp the literal meaning of the Word of God. Just
              because someone can grasp the literal meaning of the word and try to
              adopt the literal precepts is not different than someone who grasps
              the concepts of any ethical code. And yes, they will do some things
              different in their lives many of them beneficial. After all, the
              word of God contains on a literal level things that make good common
              sense. All human beings are capable of following common sense. Some
              of the postings recently in this group are disingenuous in not
              recognizing that many who are unregenerate can recognize and adopt
              some of the common sense or literal portions of the word of God.

              Jerry

              --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, RZacc <rzacc2001@. ..>
              wrote:

              >
              > Howdy George! Good evening, brother. I hope your day went better
              than mine did...equipment! If it does not have four legs and hair,
              I'd rather not deal with it. If God had wanted us to walk or
              drive, He would not have given us horses. :>)
              >
              > Anyway....I really don't see what the issue is here...
              > Unsaved people can only do one thing: sin. (Heb 11:6, etc.)
              Nothing they can do is acceptable to God - even the 'good works' are
              done to the glory of man. If a person is to be saved, God must
              begin the work in the heart. He regenerates the person so that they
              will hear, can see, understand, and then they desire. They then
              act...placing their trust in Christ.
              >
              > The contention here is that people attribute their salvation to
              their 'free will', whether they understand that to mean their
              ability to make decisions, or a common ability that all men share,
              and which enables any person, without the work of the Holy Spirit in
              their hearts FIRST, to commit to live for Christ.
              > Our will is enslaved to sin, and we are free, in our natural state
              to make decisions only within the confines and abilities of our
              nature. We can not fly, or live under water- that ability is not in
              our nature. Neither is the ability to see and understand spiritual
              truths (1 Cor 2:14). That must be a work of God which involves the
              impartation of a new nature. It is a whole new creation!!! (Gal
              6:15, 2 Cor 5:17)
              >
              > Grace is the active agent in our salvation - not 'free will'.
              When we attribute our salvation to our own ability to understand and
              believe, we ignore and neglect the work of God which causes it all.
              HE not only provided the sacrifice, He also chose every believer
              before the foundation of the world, and opened their eyes, mind,
              heart, drew them and brought them to the place where they needed to
              be, in order to exercise Faith, which He also placed in their
              heart. If you look at Eph 1:4-12 closely, observe that there is one
              parenthisis in verse :13, which is our part: "Having also believed".
              It is almost an afterthought. Everything else is the work of God!
              Paul's purpose is to get us to take our eyes off of ourselves, in
              this great transaction called 'salvation', and see GOD behind it
              all! Look at his prayers for us in Ch 1 and 3!
              > Understand His great love for US - YOU! specifically YOU. It is
              like a husband and wife (God's analogy)- Would it be acceptable if a
              wife knew that his or her husband had the same love for her that he
              had for every other woman? I dont know about your wife, but mine?
              I dont think so. Christ loved His bride with a different love than
              that which He loved the world.
              >
              > Faith is a gift- not to all men, but to His children. Repentance
              is a gift- not to all men, but to His children. His agape is a
              gift - {and a cause} - not to all men, but to His children. It's
              about time that the Church, the bride of Christ, begin to give ALL
              Praise and Honor and Glory to the One who called them, chose them!
              >
              > It is almost an insult, as I see it, to attribute the work of God
              in me, which required the same power it took to raise Christ for the
              dead, to my 'free will'. It is the last dying attempt of sinful man
              to take some credit for his salvation. And that, even when faith
              itself is a gift from Him who loved us FIRST!
              >
              > It might help to look at one of several passages in the Old
              Covenant which talk about the New covenant: Jer 31.
              > 31"Behold, days are coming," declares the LORD, "when I will make
              a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah,
              > 32not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the
              day I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt,
              My covenant which they broke, although I was a husband to them,"
              declares the LORD.
              > 33"But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of
              Israel after those days," declares the LORD, "I will put My law
              within them and on their heart I will write it; and I will be their
              God, and they shall be My people.
              > 34"They will not teach again, each man his neighbor and each man
              his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' for they will all know Me,
              from the least of them to the greatest of them," declares the
              LORD, "for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will
              remember no more."
              >
              > The people who are part of the New Covenant have His law in
              their hearts...that is God's doing. They have GOD as their God. They
              know Him because He has taught them (John 6:45). They are not
              partakers of the new covenant because they had the free will to do
              it. If that was the case, what attribute would be responsible for
              that 'decision'?? "Maybe I am a Christian because I was smarter
              than the guy next door. Or, maybe I was a better listener. maybe
              just a better guy? No, it was because I have a kind heart, and
              always obeyed my parents! What made me 'choose'?? Well, it was
              just my free will.. No outside influence- I could have chosen
              Buddah, or Allah. But it just happened to be Jesus." Hogwash! I
              am a Christian because and only because God! I was dead..but God!
              (Eph 2:1-4.). If left to my own will, I would be a God-hater until
              I took my last breath...and so would you. That is depravity.
              remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded
              > from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants
              of promise, having no hope and without God in the world!!!!
              [Ephesians 2:12:]
              >
              > Wow, the more I learn about the Love of God, the more I want to
              serve Him - and SHOUT!!!
              >
              > George: How about you? How is God using you?
              >
              > I'm praying that He will use you and be glorified in all you do.
              Seek to understand His love for you. It will motivate you to serve
              Him and commit to Him even more deeply.
              >
              > Thank you for the exchange!
              >
              > In His love,
              > rz
              >
              > Have courage. Stand always for the truth, remain dependant upon
              Him and humble before His word, and God will use you to change your
              world!
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ----- Original Message ----
              > From: geojosh1 <mab@...>
              > To: christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com
              > Sent: Friday, June 1, 2007 6:52:29 AM
              > Subject:
              [christian-philosop hy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
              >
              > Ron - Yes, this is not clear and the answer you just gave did not
              > help either. Let's look at answer number one below.
              >
              > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a la Rom 6-7. So
              far
              > so good. --- The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability
              to
              > make decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. --- Let's
              look
              > at this to see what I mean.
              >
              > You say it is not that we dont have the ability to make decisions,
              > (meaning that we do have the ability to make decisions), but the
              fact
              > that the will is free.
              >
              > If we look at that statement another way we get this: You say - we
              do
              > have the ability to make decisions, but the will is not free. This
              > doesn't make sense to me.
              >
              > The next part of your answer in number one says: We obtain freedom
              > when we
              come to Christ. I have no quarrell with that, but doesn't
              > this sound to you that we obtain the freedom like you said, when,
              not
              > before we come to Christ?
              >
              > I won't go into number 2 at this time except to ask you this
              > question - was you not dead in sin when you came to Christ? I keep
              > hearing a dead man can not come to Christ. If that is the case, no
              > one can come to Christ for we all have sinned and fell short of
              the
              > glory of God and the wages of sin is death.
              >
              > ...George
              >
              > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, RZacc
              <rzacc2001@ ..>
              > wrote:
              > >
              > > I don't think I am making any of this clear...sorry. It is not
              you
              > who is stupid. I'm sorry.
              > >
              > > The issues I have, when trying to reconcole this with scripture
              is
              > that
              > > 1. The word says our 'wills' as enslaved to sin, a
              la Rom 6-7.
              > The issue I have is not that we dont have the ability to make
              > decisions, but the fact that the will is 'free'. Rom 6-7 says that
              > we obtain freedom when we come to Christ.
              > > 2. A fallen creature, who can not understand spiritual things,
              > will not accept them, and is a hater of God in his natural state,
              can
              > not suddenly, on His own, 'decide to accept Christ'. He is dead
              (Eph
              > 2) On what is that decision based? It would have to arbitrary and
              > ignorant. In order for a person to make a commitment to Christ,
              > which is part of saving faith, one must first need to understand
              the
              > basics of the Gospel. Without God opening the heart and mind and
              > will, that is impossible. Have you not tried to explain the Gospel
              > to someone who just looked at you like you are nuts??
              > >
              > > We DO have a will, but we can not approach a holy God based upon
              > that- it takes the power of God to accomplish.
              > >
              > > It is not that we do not have a 'will' - I hesitate to call it
              > free, but if by that you mean that we can make a decision, without
              > coersion and force, then I will grant the term. That is why I like
              > to use the term volition- it is the ability to reason and make a
              > decision. I think most people call that 'free will', but its not
              > that simple.
              > >
              > > The other issue is that God's love for those who are saved began
              in
              > eternity past, and He has been working in their lives to bring
              them
              > to that point, and He will never abandon them. The idea that all
              it
              > takes for us to come to Christ is 'a decision', or an act of our'
              > free will'. displays an immature, man-centered understanding, in
              my
              > opinion. The struggle we all have is to see things from God's
              > perspective, not from
              our own. Ours is easy, no?
              > >
              > > Eph 2 says that we were 'by nature, children of wrath.' So, that
              > means that we need a nature change. All the 'free will' in the
              world
              > can not accomplish that.
              > >
              > > Well, I do appreciated the dialog, and as I said before, I
              argued
              > for our free will for years. But I could not reconcile it with the
              > bible.
              > >
              > > i need to go! Wife is yelling at me. Can I get back with you???
              > Sorry.....
              > >
              > > Later!!!
              > >
              > > ron
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message ----
              > > From: geojosh1 <mab@>
              > > To: christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com
              > > Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:23:39 PM
              > > Subject: [christian-philosop hy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry
              > >
              > > Ron - Sorry to bother you again; I forgot, and I know you
              answered
              > > this before, but how did you get around the fact that God is not
              a
              > > respecter of persons as He picks and chooses only certain
              > individuals
              > > who have no free-will?
              > >
              > > I just cannot seem to get any Scriptures to fit God usuping my
              or
              > > anyone elses ability to have a free-will and I have been
              studying
              > the
              > > Scriptures for over 30 years. Forgive me Ron for being so stupid
              in
              > > understanding this and sorry for interrupting your dialog with
              > Gerry.
              > >
              > > ...George
              > >
              > > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, "geojosh1" <mab@>
              > > wrote:
              > > >
              > > > Ron - I was going to stay out of this and I still am, but I
              could
              > > not
              > > > help to note after reading your post or most of it - that -
              what
              > > the
              > > > naysayer say is right. You can make the Scriptures read
              whatever
              > > you
              > > > wish as long as it fits your doctrine. My free-will tells me
              > > > different however. Have a great week-end.
              > > >
              > > > ...George
              > > >
              > > >
              > > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              > > > ____________ __Ready for the edge of your seat?
              > > > > Check out tonight's top picks on Yahoo! TV.
              > > > > http://tv.yahoo. com/
              > > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              > ____________ __
              > > We won't tell. Get more on shows you hate to love
              > > (and love to hate): Yahoo! TV's
              Guilty Pleasures list.
              > > http://tv.yahoo. com/collections/ 265
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
              ____________ ___
              > Fussy? Opinionated? Impossible to please? Perfect. Join Yahoo!'s
              user panel and lay it on us.
              http://surveylink. yahoo.com/ gmrs/yahoo_ panel_invite. asp?a=7
              >




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            • RZacc
              Good Morning George. I was going through the inbox - I had almost 500 messages- so I am deleting many, and I was rereading some. Im not sure if this is still
              Message 6 of 23 , Jun 3, 2007
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                Good Morning George.  I was going through the inbox - I had almost 500 messages- so I am deleting many, and I was rereading some. Im not sure if this is still an issue....
                 
                What verse are you referring to here?  I see Rom 10:12-13 which says there is no distinction between Jew and Gentile- all can believe. No preference with God. HIs children are taken form every tribe, tongue and nation. 
                Praise Him for that!!
                 
                Well, have a great day and may He be glorified in all you do.
                 
                r
                 

                "There is no other way under the heavens! Learning how to trust, and
                continuing to trust in God is the only way to get ready for the things
                we're not ready for."

                 
                 


                 
                ----- Original Message ----
                From: geojosh1 <mab@...>
                To: christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Thursday, May 31, 2007 2:23:39 PM
                Subject: [christian-philosophy] Re: U in TULIP Gerry

                Ron - Sorry to bother you again; I forgot, and I know you answered
                this before, but how did you get around the fact that God is not a
                respecter of persons as He picks and chooses only certain individuals
                who have no free-will?

                I just cannot seem to get any Scriptures to fit God usuping my or
                anyone elses ability to have a free-will and I have been studying the
                Scriptures for over 30 years. Forgive me Ron for being so stupid in
                understanding this and sorry for interrupting your dialog with Gerry.

                ...George

                --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, "geojosh1" <mab@...>
                wrote:

                >
                > Ron - I was going to stay out of this and I still am, but I could
                not
                > help to note after reading your post or most of it - that - what
                the
                > naysayer say is right. You can make the Scriptures read whatever
                you
                > wish as long as it fits your doctrine. My free-will tells me
                > different however. Have a great week-end.
                >
                > ...George
                >
                >
                > --- In christian-philosoph y@yahoogroups. com, RZacc <rzacc2001@>
                > wrote:
                > >
                > > Howdy Gerry- Good evening!
                > >
                > > So, I ask you again, if election and salvation are conditional,
                > then what is the condition that one must meet in order to be saved
                > and chosen? If He only chooses blond haired, blue eyed people, then
                > that is the condition. If you see 1 Cor 1 as conditional, then
                only
                > those who meet the condition are called. Are those only 'good'
                > people? Smart people? Jews? Gentiles? Dumb? Or, does GOD choose
                > according to His good pleasure (Eph 1)
                > >
                > > Is the 'call' in this section the one
                and only 'call', meaning
                they
                > hear the Gospel? or is the 'call' here to mean the effectual work
                of
                > God in the heart of a man which results in saving faith? Well,
                > let's look at this section:
                > > 1 Cor 1:22 Seeing that Jews ask for signs, and Greeks seek after
                > wisdom: 23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumbling
                > block, and unto Gentiles foolishness; 24 but unto them that are
                > called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the
                wisdom
                > of God.
                > >
                > > Here Paul identifies three groups of people: 1. Jews who seek
                for
                > signs, and who find Christ a Stumbling block (obviously the heard
                the
                > Gospel), 2. Gentiles who seek after wisdom, and find Christ
                > Foolishness, an a third group: 3. Those (both Jews and Gentiles)
                who
                > are 'called'. So we have those who hear the gospel (the 'general
                or
                > gospel' call),
                both Jews and Greeks, and we have those who
                > are 'called'.
                > >
                > > No, you are right, the scriptures do not use the word 'general'
                > and 'effectual', but thinking men - not just the reformers - who
                were
                > seeking to understand the Word of God in an honest manner used the
                > word to aattempt to communicate what the scriptures teach.
                > >
                > > 1Cor 1: 26 For behold your calling, brethren, that not many wise
                > after the flesh, not many mighty, not many noble, are called: 27
                but
                > God chose the foolish things of the world, that he might put to
                shame
                > them that are wise; and God chose the weak things of the world,
                that
                > he might put to shame the things that are strong; 28 and the base
                > things of the world, and the things that are despised, did God
                choose,
                > >
                > > :26 Behold your CALLING
                > > :27 God Chose
                > > :27 God
                Chose
                > > :28 God did choose.
                > > Why? :29 that no flesh should glory before God. That no
                > unconverted man could claim that he had any trait or condition or
                > characteristic or ability, or attribute, looked upon by God as
                > desirable and worthy of salvation... or 'glorying',
                or 'boasting'.
                > That is unconditional choice on the part of God.
                > >
                > > You said: "So your rule is to first determine a purpose, and
                then
                > interpret the text? Paul says certain types of people are
                represented
                > in lower numbers when it comes to calling. Why does Paul say that?
                If
                > you can't look at it objectively you will never see it."
                > > I say: My rule, sir, which is not mine, but is our
                heritage
                > as believers, is 1. Determine what the original language SAYS.
                > That, at times, takes a great deal of labor, and it is an
                essential
                > foundation. 2. Examine
                and consider synthesis. That is,
                assuming
                > that there are no contradictions in scripture, we investigate the
                > context, and then examine other passages where the topic in
                question
                > is addressed. 3. Apply the historical principle: We recreate the
                > historical settings first, then ask the question: 'what did it mean
                > to those to whom it was first written?' 4. Only then can we ask
                the
                > question 'What does it mean to me?' How do I apply it to my life?
                > > Those are the "rules" that I apply in my attempts at interpreting
                > scripture. What steps do you follow?
                > >
                > > You said: "No, I'm concluding that Calvinistic "unconditional
                > election" is not unconditional. "
                > > I say: Then, I ask again, what are the conditions?
                > >
                > > 1 Cor 1:31 says: "that, according as it is written, He that
                > glories, let him glory in the Lord. "
                > > I say:
                Rather than what? Rather than anything in himself.
                > >
                > > You said: "He elects, he effectually calls the elect, then
                > > he chose the ratio of one class of people to another.
                > > That is the inescapable conclusion, and it's your
                > > problem, not mine."
                > > I say: He chooses individuals based upon nothing within
                > themselves.. not wisdom, not stature in life, nor any other
                quality.
                > He is simply saying that our salvation is based not upon our wisdom
                > or intellect, not upon our nobility in life, not any other
                quality..
                > 30 But of him are ye in Christ Jesus! HE CHOSE! It is His
                > decision.
                > > Also, another thought: No, not many...what ration do you think
                > there were in that society?
                > >
                > > Please examine Matthew 22:14 "For many are called, but few are
                > chosen."
                > > Here the first word is 'Called" - and the second
                word
                is 'Chosen'.
                > First one is the Gospel message going out to the ears of a
                > person. "Chosen" is the effectual work of God in the heart.
                > >
                > > Romans 8:30 "and these whom He predestined, He also called; and
                > these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He
                justified,
                > He also glorified".
                > > In this verse, all who are 'called' are justified and glorified.
                > Could that be the general call, which is the Gospel message going
                out
                > to all men? I dont think so, unless you are a universalist or one
                > who believes that one can be saved by just hearing, apart
                > from 'pistis' faith.
                > >
                > > Romans 9: 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His
                wrath
                > and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of
                > wrath prepared for destruction? 23And He did so to make known the
                > riches of His glory upon
                vessels of mercy, which He prepared
                > beforehand for glory, 24even us, whom He also called, not from
                among
                > Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
                > > In this passage, we see those who were prepared for glory
                > are 'even us', whom He called! Is that the general call or does it
                > mean those whom He elected for salvation? If there is but
                > one 'call', then everyone who hears the Gospel message is
                > foreordained for glory. And what of those who hear and reject?
                > >
                > > No sir, the issue of the one 'call' in Scripture is not my
                > problem. Please address the scriptures above, or, if you choose
                not
                > to, then at least take time to think about them. Here are more
                that
                > come to mind....
                > >
                > > 2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling,
                > not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and
                > grace which
                was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
                > > Here is God calling us with a 'holy calling' according to HIs own
                > purpose. It is all of Him who calls.
                > >
                > >
                > > Hebrews 9:15 "For this reason He is the mediator of a new
                covenant,
                > so that, since a death has taken place for the redemption of the
                > transgressions that were committed under the first covenant, those
                > who have been called may receive the promise of the eternal
                > inheritance. "
                > > Those who have been called are called with the purpose of
                receiving
                > the eternal inheritance. That is God's purpose. Not everyone who
                > hears the words receives that promise.
                > >
                > >
                > > Jude 1:1 "Jude, a bond-servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of
                > James, To those who are the called, beloved in God the Father, and
                > kept for Jesus Christ:"
                > > The definite article
                here, and other places, makes it just that:
                > Definite. Jude is addressing a specific group who are Loved by God
                > and Kept for Jesus. Those who are 'called'.
                > >
                > > There are so many examples... It is naive for you to throw out
                > words like 'effectual', because they are not stated in that way in
                > scripture, when the principle is, in fact, presented.
                > >
                > > Also, whether you call it 'reformed doctrine' or not is
                > immaterial.. the question is: Does scripture teach it?
                > >
                > > Gerry- Thanks for your time. Keep asking questions. Keep
                growing
                > in the grace and knowledge of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.
                > >
                > > Coram Deo,
                > > rz
                > >
                > >
                > >
                >
                ____________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _________ _
                > ____________ __Ready for the edge of your seat?
                > > Check out tonight's top
                picks on Yahoo! TV.
                > > http://tv.yahoo. com/
                > >
                >




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              • Gerry McPherson
                Hi Ron, I spent two hours on a reply the other day, and it got blown away in a one minute power outage. Every time I start on a reply, it just gets to long,
                Message 7 of 23 , Jun 3, 2007
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                  Hi Ron,

                  I spent two hours on a reply the other day, and it got
                  blown away in a one minute power outage. Every time I
                  start on a reply, it just gets to long, and allows for
                  to many excursions down rabbit trails, so this is going
                  to be short (relatively speaking) and sweet.

                  I want settle on what Paul is saying in 1 Cor 1:26
                  before going on to the other Scriptures, because this
                  verse has clear implications, and will influence
                  interpretation of others.

                  Paul is making a true statement about the church at
                  Corinth, we both agree I'm sure. He's not saying
                  anything frivolous, and we can take something from it.

                  Paul says that there were not many wise according to
                  the flesh, not many noble, not many mighty, in that
                  church. Let's pick some numbers arbitrarily that
                  reflect what Paul said. Let's say there were 100
                  believers in that church. And let's say that 10 of them
                  fit the description of the "not many's".

                  Now, in Reformed thought, the effectual call has a 1 to
                  1 correspondence with election. So if the calling in
                  v.26 is the effectual call, then we would be correct in
                  paraphrasing Paul in terms of election as saying,
                  "You see your election brethren."

                  The question that needs to be answered with respect to
                  v.26 is this: How did it come to be that only 10 out of
                  the 100 effectually called were types
                  "wise...noble...mighty"?

                  The only possible answer for Reformed theology is that
                  God only elected 10 of those types, and effectually
                  called the same 10.

                  That answer has some ramifications:

                  1. The doctrine of unconditional election collapses,
                  because Paul is affirming that God elected and called
                  having certain types of people in mind. [Either that,
                  or he's not really saying anything significant, and he
                  might as well have spared the ink.]

                  2. God's actions described in v.27-29 are superfluous
                  and unnecessary. In Reformed thought, all spiritual
                  things are foolishness to the unregenerate anyway, so
                  how do the foolish things of the world have any impact
                  on who believes?

                  1 Cor 1:26 is a catch-22 for Reformed theology. If the
                  calling is effectual, then God has factored type into
                  election, and unconditional election goes out the
                  window. If the call is not effectual then Total
                  Depravity and Irresistible Grace are done for.

                  The only interpretation of v.26 and it's context is
                  that has designed salvation such that those who glory
                  in the flesh (esteeming themselves as wise, noble,
                  mighty) will find God's truth to be foolishness. God
                  does not choose who will be saved

                  It is fairly easy to demonstrate the absurdity of
                  thinking that Paul's original audience would have
                  understood "calling" in the reformed sense of "an
                  effectual work of God in the heart". It is also easy
                  to show that the apostle Paul did not believe that
                  every unregenerate person finds the gospel to be
                  foolishness.

                  Regards,
                  Gerry
                • RZacc
                  Two hours? Wow, I am sorry bout that. Where do you live? Here we get that daily...with lightning.. I have learned to save what i am doing periodically. Re:
                  Message 8 of 23 , Jun 3, 2007
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                    Two hours? Wow, I am sorry 'bout that. Where do you live? Here we get that daily...with lightning.. I have learned to save what i am doing periodically.

                    Re: 1 Cor 1:26- Please read the next verse:
                    27but God has chosen the foolish things of the world to shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things of the world to shame the things which are strong, 28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

                    Other verses in the same context: 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

                    What is he saying in :26? Simply that God has called you regardless of your state or your wisdom or your mental or moral ability. IN :19-22, he says that it is not because of your wisdom or anything else! IT is because God called and chose you!
                    Please look at: 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
                    24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

                    That is so clear- we have JEWS, and we have Gentiles....is that not everyone on earth???? YES... unless there is another group, which is spiritual group! Verse 24but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.

                    He said in Ch 2: 4 and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power, 5so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God.
                    THAT is the reason why not many of those classes are chosen: It is not dependent upon wisdom, or miracles. Also: 19For the wisdom of this world is foolishness before God For it is written, "He is THE ONE WHO CATCHES THE WISE IN THEIR CRAFTINESS";
                    20and again, "THE LORD KNOWS THE REASONINGS of the wise, THAT THEY ARE USELESS." 21So then let no one boast in men...

                    1 Cor 2:7but we speak God's wisdom in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God predestined before the ages to our glory;
                    Hidden from whom?
                    10For to us God revealed them through the Spirit; for the Spirit searches all things, even the depths of God.

                    2: 12Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, so that we may know the things freely given to us by God....

                    Now, you said: "Let's pick some numbers arbitrarily that
                    reflect what Paul said. Let's say there were 100
                    believers in that church. And let's say that 10 of them
                    fit the description of the "not many's"."

                    I say? Where do you get this?

                    You continue: Now, in Reformed thought, the effectual call has a 1 to 1 correspondence with election. So if the calling in v.26 is the effectual call, then we would be correct in paraphrasing Paul in terms of election as saying, "You see your election brethren."

                    I say: Hu? I think you are saying that all who are elect are called, effectually. Is that right? That is true. Jesus: Jn 6:37 "All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.."

                    You said: The question that needs to be answered with respect to
                    v.26 is this: How did it come to be that only 10 out of
                    the 100 effectually called were types "wise...noble...mighty"?
                    The only possible answer for Reformed theology is that
                    God only elected 10 of those types, and effectually
                    called the same 10.
                    I say: Yes, and that is answered in the rest of the section, on into Ch 2.


                    You say:"That answer has some ramifications:
                    1. The doctrine of unconditional election collapses,
                    because Paul is affirming that God elected and called
                    having certain types of people in mind. [Either that,
                    or he's not really saying anything significant, and he
                    might as well have spared the ink.]

                    I say: The doctrine of election is affirmed because it is not of man's wisdom, stature, or position, but of Him who calls. GOD chooses whom He will.

                    You say: 2. God's actions described in v.27-29 are superfluous
                    and unnecessary. In Reformed thought, all spiritual
                    things are foolishness to the unregenerate anyway, so
                    how do the foolish things of the world have any impact
                    on who believes?

                    I say: 1. According to the Bible all foolish spiritual things are foolishness to the unregenerate: 1 Cor 2:14.
                    2. Foolish spiritual things fall on dead, deaf ears, unless God opens them. God gives a reason for His choosing whom He desires:
                    1 Cor 1:28 and the base things of the world and the despised God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man may boast before God.

                    You summarize your position with the following statement: God
                    does not choose who will be saved
                    Please allow me to address that in another post...this one is getting long.. sorry.

                    You said: It is fairly easy to demonstrate the absurdity of thinking that Paul's original audience would have understood "calling" in the reformed sense of "an effectual work of God in the heart".
                    I say: Ok, I await your proof.

                    You said: It is also easy to show that the apostle Paul did not believe that every unregenerate person finds the gospel to be foolishness.
                    I say: OK, I await your proof.

                    Please give me about 5 minutes and I'll get back with you on that one summary statement.

                    Thanks for your patience and your tolerance of me, as I hold a different view. I know it gets frustrating when that happens, and it is so easy to get angry. May God continue to work in your heart to His Glory.

                    coram Deo,
                    ronz

                    Age is a very high price to pay for maturity.





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                  • RZacc
                    Jerry: I only have a minute..the sun just came out again...time to ride : ) But, let s address one statement, God does not choose who will be saved not
                    Message 9 of 23 , Jun 3, 2007
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                      Jerry: I only have a minute..the sun just came out again...time to ride :>)

                      But, let's address one statement,
                      "God does not choose who will be saved"
                      not just from that one section, in 1 Cor., and your interpretation of it, but from the New Testament in general. What we believe (our doctrine) must rest on the entire weight of scripture, not on one verse. So please allow me to just identify a FEW verses which must be explained away, in order for your interpretation on 1 Cor 1:26 to be valid.

                      I will concede defeat and rethink my conviction on the sovereignty of God if you can explain away the following verses. These are ones I picked out in about 3 minutes...not 2 hours. There are more, but let us address these first, then we can go on.

                      Please realize that my intention is NOT to convince you of ANYTHING, and not to win any arguments. My purpose is to simply explain why I believe as I do - and hopefully you can at least understand WHY. I must take synthesis seriously, and must critique my conclusions on any subject based upon the entire counsel of God. Please take a moment to see things from my perspective. If you disagree, then fine, we can agree to disagree.

                      Also, I believe I quoted other Scriptures in the past, and used some logic to address this also... you might just think about those things also. You are free to disregard anything and everything I say unless it conforms to scripture.

                      Here are some verses to consider - most from the New Testament, but not all:

                      John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own; but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, because of this the world hates you.

                      John 15:16 " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

                      Mark 13:20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He shortened the days.

                      Ezekiel 20:5 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,

                      Psalm 78:67He also rejected the tent of Joseph,And did not choose the tribe of Ephraim, 68But chose the tribe of Judah,

                      Acts 13:17 "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and with an uplifted arm He led them out from it.

                      Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love

                      Acts 15:6-86 The apostles and the elders came together to look into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe. 8"And God, who knows the heart, testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did to us;

                      Romans 11:5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.


                      Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers;

                      1 Thessalonians 1:4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice of you;

                      Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

                      1 Corinthians 1:2To the church of God which is at Corinth, to those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling, with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus Christ,

                      Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling, what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,

                      Ephesians 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been called,

                      2 Thessalonians 1:11To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

                      2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling, not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,

                      Hebrews 3:1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our confession;


                      1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

                      2 Peter 1:3His divine power has given us everything we need for life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his own glory and goodness.

                      2 Peter 1:10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will never fall,

                      1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

                      2 Timothy 2:10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.


                      1 Peter 1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

                      Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."

                      Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed to eternal life believed.

                      John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.

                      John 17: 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word.

                      John17:9: I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;

                      John 17: 14"I have given them Your word; and the world has hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

                      John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

                      Romans 9: 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who calls,

                      Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION." 16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.

                      Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


                      Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

                      Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.


                      om 9: 25 As He says also in Hosea, “I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"

                      Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens whom He desires.


                      Rom 9: 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make me like this," will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use?

                      Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,


                      John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."… :7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8" The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

                      John 6: 44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45"It is written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.' Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.

                      John 6:39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.


                      John 6:65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you, that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the Father."

                      >>>>> Look at the result: 66 As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.


                      God Bless! Again, I can only hope to explain why I believe as I do. It makes not one wit of difference to me WHAT "Reformed doctrine" teaches.... I could care less. As a matter of fact, in the whole scheme of things, I am not reformed, but dispensational, except for the area of soteriology.

                      May the Lord Bless you beyond measure, to His glory.


                      In His Love.
                      your brother ron

                      Eagles might soar, but weasels don’t get sucked into jet engines!



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                    • RZacc
                      Gerry: Please please please take a few minutes (not 2 horus!) to take a look at John McArthur s article at the site below. He address this very question from
                      Message 10 of 23 , Jun 3, 2007
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                        Gerry: Please please please take a few minutes (not 2 horus!) to take a look at John McArthur's article at the site below. He address this very question from thei very section in 1 Cor, as well as others. I you spent 2 hours on something that is floating around in cyberspace, you can take a couple more to read this, ok? Again, my purpose is so that you will understand why I believe as I do, not to convince.

                        My conviction is that John is 100% correct in what he says... just take 2 minutes to read it.

                        Thanks

                        The site is:
                        http://www.biblebb.com/files/MAC/90-322.htm

                        God Bless
                        r

                        The early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.



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                      • Gerry McPherson
                        Hi Ron: ... gm: I m in N. Illinois, about 50 miles NW of Chicago. I use Thunderbird for email, and it always, without fail, saves work to draft about every
                        Message 11 of 23 , Jun 3, 2007
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                          Hi Ron:

                          RZacc wrote:
                          > Two hours? Wow, I am sorry 'bout that. Where do
                          > you live? Here we get that daily...with lightning..
                          > I have learned to save what i am doing periodically.

                          gm: I'm in N. Illinois, about 50 miles NW of Chicago. I
                          use Thunderbird for email, and it always, without fail,
                          saves work to draft about every five minutes - except
                          this time. And there was no storm, no lightening, just
                          our wonderful power distribution system. I finally
                          bought a generator after a three day power out last
                          summer - that one was due to some serious widespread
                          wind damage. The Lord spared me the damage, but He
                          apparently thought I needed a little inconvenience :-)

                          > Re: 1 Cor 1:26- Please read the next verse: 27but
                          > God has chosen the foolish things of the world to
                          > shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things
                          > of the world to shame the things which are strong,
                          > 28 and the base things of the world and the despised
                          > God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He
                          > may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man
                          > may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are
                          > in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God,
                          > and righteousness and sanctification, and
                          > redemption,

                          gm: I addressed these.

                          > Other verses in the same context: 9 God is
                          > faithful, through whom you were called into
                          > fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
                          >
                          > What is he saying in :26? Simply that God has called
                          > you regardless of your state or your wisdom or your
                          > mental or moral ability.

                          gm: In other words, God was not aware, when He was
                          choosing men for salvation, that he was choosing fewer
                          of certain types of people. Is that what you're
                          saying? I'm sure it's not.

                          gm: Are you also saying that even without the effectual
                          call, more of these types of people would have believed
                          if God hadn't used the foolish things of this world to
                          confound them? Sort of a belt and suspenders approach?

                          gm: You have deftly tap-danced around the point. But it
                          will come up again, I'm persistent.

                          gm: Just read v.26 from your own paradigm: "See you're
                          [effectual]calling brethren, that not many wise
                          according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many
                          noble, are [effectually] called."

                          gm: You can't seem to admit that Paul is calling
                          attention to the fact that not many of certain type of
                          people are effectually called (and therefore not elect).

                          > IN :19-22, he says that it
                          > is not because of your wisdom or anything else! IT
                          > is because God called and chose you! Please look at:
                          > 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a
                          > stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but
                          > to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks,
                          > Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
                          > That is so clear- we have JEWS, and we have
                          > Gentiles....is that not everyone on earth????

                          gm: Oh dear! Textual criticism strikes again. Paul
                          consistently pairs Jews and Greeks. Do a concordance
                          substring search for "Greek" in Paul using the KJV or
                          NKJV. You will find 14 occurrences. In all but two,
                          Greek is paired with Jew when it is in a doctrinal
                          context - that's 12 of the 14 times. One of the two
                          other occurrences of "Greek" in Paul is when he
                          identifies Titus as a Greek (Gal 2:3). The other is this:

                          Rom 1:14 NKJV I am a debtor both to Greeks and to
                          barbarians, both to wise and to unwise.

                          gm: Paul, in fact, viewed men in three categories, Jew,
                          Greeks, and barbarians, Gentiles being comprised of the
                          latter two.

                          gm: Notice also the parallelism:

                          Greeks - barbarians
                          wise - unwise

                          gm: Jews considered themselves above others because
                          they were God's chosen people, they had Abraham as
                          their father, they had Moses and the law and the prophets.

                          gm: Greeks also (both Greeks proper and those who
                          adopted Greek culture and religion) held themselves to
                          be wiser and more sophisticated than others.

                          gm: And then there are the barbarians, Joe Gentile, but
                          without the baggage associated with the Jews and Greeks.

                          gm: Paul pairs Jew and Greek 5 times in 1 Corinthians
                          alone, and three of those are in 1 Cor 1:22-24, which
                          passage we are looking at. I don't consider the textual
                          critics to be infallible, and I believe they made a bad
                          call in v.23, it should be Jews...Greeks, just like
                          Paul consistently does everywhere else. And especially
                          considering that Paul was writing to a church in
                          Greece, on the subject of wisdom (cf. Rom 1:14 again).

                          gm: But my opinion doesn't matter, Scripture does.
                          After a day long conversation with some Jews, who
                          rejected the gospel, Paul said this:

                          Act 28:28 NKJV "Therefore let it be known to you that
                          the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and
                          they will hear it!"

                          gm: Take hold of those last four words: The Gentiles
                          will hear it! So Paul thinks the gospel is foolishness
                          to all Gentiles you say? I say no, because Paul says
                          no. Paul says the Gentiles, unlike the providentially
                          blind and deaf Jews, will hear, i.e. perceive and
                          understand the message of salvation. Just as Paul
                          generalizes about the blindness and unbelief of the
                          Jews, in this verse he makes a general statement about
                          Gentiles in direct contrast to the Jews.

                          gm: That should give you pause. You should see that
                          Paul does not believe that Gentiles find the gospel to
                          be foolishness, on the contrary, in general, they will
                          listen and understand it.

                          > YES... unless there is another group, which is
                          > spiritual group! Verse 24but to those who are the
                          > called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of
                          > God and the wisdom of God.

                          gm: But aren't those the effectually called? Isn't Paul
                          pointing out, explicitly, that only a few of certain
                          types had been effectually called. You can't get away
                          from v.26.

                          > Now, you said: "Let's pick some numbers arbitrarily
                          > that reflect what Paul said. Let's say there were
                          > 100 believers in that church. And let's say that 10
                          > of them fit the description of the "not many's"."
                          >
                          > I say? Where do you get this?

                          gm: What do you mean, "Where do you get this?" I get
                          this from a plain reading of v.26. Good Grief! You
                          don't like numbers? Okay, let's say that there were
                          some called in the church at Corinth, and not many of
                          those called were "wise...mighty...noble" (Oh, wait,
                          that's what Paul said isn't it?). Why weren't many of
                          those types called? Because God did not call many of
                          those types. Right? Can't you bring yourself to say
                          it? :-)

                          > You continue: Now, in Reformed thought, the
                          > effectual call has a 1 to 1 correspondence with
                          > election. So if the calling in v.26 is the effectual
                          > call, then we would be correct in paraphrasing
                          > Paul in terms of election as saying, "You see your
                          > election brethren."
                          >
                          > I say: Hu? I think you are saying that all who are
                          > elect are called, effectually. Is that right?

                          gm: No, I stated the converse, which is that all who
                          are effectually called are elect, which is what
                          Reformed theology also holds - the two go together.

                          > You said: The question that needs to be answered
                          > with respect to v.26 is this: How did it come to be
                          > that only 10 out of the 100 effectually called were
                          > types "wise...noble...mighty"? The only possible
                          > answer for Reformed theology is that God only
                          > elected 10 of those types, and effectually called
                          > the same 10.
                          >
                          > I say: Yes, and that is answered in
                          > the rest of the section, on into Ch 2.

                          gm: Then you agree that it was God's intent to elect
                          only 10 (or whatever the number actually was) of those
                          types of people? (Or was it just luck of the draw?) And
                          Paul was pointing out to the church at Corinth that God
                          had not chosen many of those types of people (which
                          means God took the type of person into account at
                          election time). Or was Paul saying something inane,
                          like the low numbers for these types of people really
                          was just the luck of the draw?

                          gm: You keep going to v.27ff as though the way in which
                          people see God's methods (as foolishness or not) has
                          anything to do with whether or not they believe. That
                          contradicts Reformed doctrine. God chooses, period.
                          It's foolishness to everyone until God regenerates
                          them, period. You can't squeeze v.27-29 into your
                          paradigm. So what if it's foolishness? God chooses men
                          and they no longer see it as foolishness, and the one's
                          he doesn't choose continue to see it as foolishness.
                          So why did he choose to enlighten only a few, the "not
                          many wise...mighty...noble." Why not be impartial and
                          make it 50/50.

                          gm: Imagine sitting in the assembly at Corinth and
                          hearing this letter, and you believe that God chooses
                          who will be saved. The only conclusion you could come
                          to is that God is biased against certain types of
                          people - He didn't choose many of them, and in fact he
                          biased the entire plan of salvation against them.

                          > You say:"That answer has some ramifications: 1. The
                          > doctrine of unconditional election collapses,
                          > because Paul is affirming that God elected and
                          > called having certain types of people in mind.
                          > [Either that, or he's not really saying anything
                          > significant, and he might as well have spared the
                          > ink.]
                          >
                          > I say: The doctrine of election is affirmed because
                          > it is not of man's wisdom, stature, or position, but
                          > of Him who calls. GOD chooses whom He will.

                          gm; Okee-dokee then. It was God's will to not chose
                          many wise [wisdom]...mighty [stature]...noble
                          [position]. Conditional choosing (aka, conditional
                          election). Regardless of v.27-29, it is God's choosing
                          that makes the determination, right? Right!

                          > You say: 2. God's actions described in v.27-29 are
                          > superfluous and unnecessary. In Reformed thought,
                          > all spiritual things are foolishness to the
                          > unregenerate anyway, so how do the foolish things of
                          > the world have any impact on who believes?
                          >
                          > I say: 1. According to the Bible all foolish
                          > spiritual things are foolishness to the
                          > unregenerate: 1 Cor 2:14.

                          gm: According to an explicit statement by Paul in Acts
                          28:28, this is not true. And 1 Cor 2:14 is speaking
                          about things that only those who have the Spirit can
                          understand. In the preceding verses Paul made it clear
                          that these are the deep things of God. Just as only
                          the spirit in a man knows the thoughts of a man, so
                          only the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God.
                          There are spiritual truths beyond the gospel that can
                          only be understood by those who are indwelt by the
                          Spirit. Paul is leading up to chapter 3 where he zings
                          the church at Corinth for not being able to take solid
                          spiritual food. The natural man, not indwelt by the
                          Spirit cannot understand these things, but the
                          Corinthians have no excuse. And before one can be
                          indwelt so as to understand these things, they have to
                          understand and believe the gospel. So the gospel
                          message per se is excluded from the "things" in v.14.

                          gm: Paul nowhere, ever, says that unregenerate man
                          cannot understand the gospel, he says just the opposite
                          in Acts 28:28.

                          <cut>

                          > You said: It is fairly easy to demonstrate the
                          > absurdity of thinking that Paul's original audience
                          > would have understood "calling" in the reformed
                          > sense of "an effectual work of God in the heart". I
                          > say: Ok, I await your proof.

                          gm: Well, here are the facts:

                          1. The Greek word 'klesis' means...um...it means
                          calling, as in an invitation. That's what Paul's
                          readers would have understood.

                          2. The Reformed definition of "an effectual work in the
                          heart" is not articulated anywhere in Scripture. You
                          can't even find verses to that effect without reading
                          it into them.

                          3. The church at Corinth was spiritually immature. Paul
                          said he couldn't speak to them as spiritual, they still
                          couldn't take solid spiritual food. But somehow you
                          think they would intuitively understand "calling" in
                          this Reformed theological sense 1500 years before it
                          was articulated.

                          > You said: It is also easy to show that the apostle
                          > Paul did not believe that every unregenerate person
                          > finds the gospel to be foolishness. I say: OK, I
                          > await your proof.

                          gm; Given above in the discussion of Acts 28:28.

                          > Please give me about 5 minutes and I'll get back
                          > with you on that one summary statement.
                          >
                          > Thanks for your patience and your tolerance of me,
                          > as I hold a different view. I know it gets
                          > frustrating when that happens, and it is so easy to
                          > get angry. May God continue to work in your heart
                          > to His Glory.

                          gm; Please don't mistake zeal for anger. I'll admit I
                          get a bit testy when frustrated, and I have a bit of a
                          tendency toward sarcasm, which I try mightily to
                          control. I gain from the debate, because I am forced
                          over and over to examine my position in the light of
                          Scripture.

                          Regards,
                          Gerry
                        • RZacc
                          Howdy. Man, it s late but I ll take a few minutes.. You said: Take hold of those last four words: The Gentiles will hear it! So Paul thinks the gospel is
                          Message 12 of 23 , Jun 3, 2007
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                            Howdy. Man, it's late but I'll take a few minutes..
                             
                            You said: Take hold of those last four words: The Gentiles
                            will hear it! So Paul thinks the gospel is foolishness
                            to all Gentiles you say? I say no, because Paul says
                            no. Paul says the Gentiles, unlike the providentially
                            blind and deaf Jews, will hear, i.e. perceive and
                            understand the message of salvation. Just as Paul
                            generalizes about the blindness and unbelief of the
                            Jews, in this verse he makes a general statement about
                            Gentiles in direct contrast to the Jews.
                             
                              I say: I did not say that the all Gentiles would think it foolish... Gentiles who are called will hear and respond.  I did not say all would reject...:?????  Neither will all Gentiles receive it.  Only those who are 'called'...
                             
                            You said;  That should give you pause. You should see that
                            Paul does not believe that Gentiles find the gospel to
                            be foolishness, on the contrary, in general, they will
                            listen and understand it.
                              I say:  What are you talking about?  some of both categories will hear and respond.  They make up the 'church'. Even that word means "Called Out Ones".
                             
                             
                            gm: But aren't those the effectually called? Isn't Paul
                            pointing out, explicitly, that only a few of certain
                            types had been effectually called. You can't get away
                            from v.26.
                              I say:  What are you saying????
                             
                            > Now, you said: "Let's pick some numbers arbitrarily
                            > that reflect what Paul said. Let's say there were
                            > 100 believers in that church. And let's say that 10
                            > of them fit the description of the "not many's"."
                            >
                            > I say? Where do you get this?

                            gm: What do you mean, "Where do you get this?" I get
                            this from a plain reading of v.26. Good Grief! You
                            don't like numbers? Okay, let's say that there were
                            some called in the church at Corinth, and not many of
                            those called were "wise...mighty. ..noble" (Oh, wait,
                            that's what Paul said isn't it?). Why weren't many of
                            those types called? Because God did not call many of
                            those types. Right? Can't you bring yourself to say
                            it? :-)
                              I say: I thought we were adults here... if you want to get angry, it is over. God calls whom
                            He wills.  He is sovereign, not us.  I told you in the beginning that I would not argue. Period.  God Chooses whom He wills.  If you are asking me 'why the numbers?' - The answer is: I am not God.
                            In answer to your sarcastic question: Na..I hate numbers... I quit counting on my last birthday.  I then decided that I would never count again....threw away my watch too.
                             
                             
                             You said: No, I stated the converse, which is that all who
                            are effectually called are elect, which is what
                            Reformed theology also holds - the two go together.
                               I say: Those who are effectually called are those who elect...it is the same thing.
                             

                            > You said: The question that needs to be answered
                            > with respect to v.26 is this: How did it come to be
                            > that only 10 out of the 100 effectually called were
                            > types "wise...noble. ..mighty" ? The only possible
                            > answer for Reformed theology is that God only
                            > elected 10 of those types, and effectually called
                            > the same 10.
                            >
                            > I say: Yes, and that is answered in
                            > the rest of the section, on into Ch 2.

                            gm: Then you agree that it was God's intent to elect
                            only 10 (or whatever the number actually was) of those
                            types of people? (Or was it just luck of the draw?) And
                            Paul was pointing out to the church at Corinth that God
                            had not chosen many of those types of people (which
                            means God took the type of person into account at
                            election time). Or was Paul saying something inane,
                            like the low numbers for these types of people really
                            was just the luck of the draw?
                              I say:  God chooses whom He wills.  According to His good pleasure. Eph 1:3-14.IN the words of Albert Einstein:"God does not roll dice."
                             
                             
                            You said:: You keep going to v.27ff as though the way in which
                            people see God's methods (as foolishness or not) has
                            anything to do with whether or not they believe. That
                            contradicts Reformed doctrine. God chooses, period.
                            It's foolishness to everyone until God regenerates
                            them, period. You can't squeeze v.27-29 into your
                            paradigm. So what if it's foolishness? God chooses men
                            and they no longer see it as foolishness, and the one's
                            he doesn't choose continue to see it as foolishness.
                            So why did he choose to enlighten only a few, the "not
                            many wise...mighty. ..noble." Why not be impartial and
                            make it 50/50.
                             
                              I say:  You had better ask Him. 

                            > You say:"That answer has some ramifications: 1. The
                            > doctrine of unconditional election collapses,
                            > because Paul is affirming that God elected and
                            > called having certain types of people in mind.
                            > [Either that, or he's not really saying anything
                            > significant, and he might as well have spared the
                            > ink.]
                            >
                            > I say: The doctrine of election is affirmed because
                            > it is not of man's wisdom, stature, or position, but
                            > of Him who calls. GOD chooses whom He will.

                            gm; Okee-dokee then. It was God's will to not chose
                            many wise [wisdom]...mighty [stature]... noble
                            [position]. Conditional choosing (aka, conditional
                            election). Regardless of v.27-29, it is God's choosing
                            that makes the determination, right? Right!
                                  I say: It is NOT conditional.  Conditioned upon what???  What characteristic is it conditioned upon?  It is God's choosing that makes the determination..right.  If not, then what IS the determination????
                             
                             > You say: 2. God's actions described in v.27-29 are
                            > superfluous and unnecessary. In Reformed thought,
                            > all spiritual things are foolishness to the
                            > unregenerate anyway, so how do the foolish things of
                            > the world have any impact on who believes?
                            >
                            > I say: 1. According to the Bible all foolish
                            > spiritual things are foolishness to the
                            > unregenerate: 1 Cor 2:14.

                              You said: : According to an explicit statement by Paul in Acts
                            28:28, this is not true. And 1 Cor 2:14 is speaking
                            about things that only those who have the Spirit can
                            understand. In the preceding verses Paul made it clear
                            that these are the deep things of God. Just as only
                            the spirit in a man knows the thoughts of a man, so
                            only the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God.
                            There are spiritual truths beyond the gospel that can
                            only be understood by those who are indwelt by the
                            Spirit. Paul is leading up to chapter 3 where he zings
                            the church at Corinth for not being able to take solid
                            spiritual food. The natural man, not indwelt by the
                            Spirit cannot understand these things, but the
                            Corinthians have no excuse. And before one can be
                            indwelt so as to understand these things, they have to
                            understand and believe the gospel. So the gospel
                            message per se is excluded from the "things" in v.14.
                                 I say: 1 Cor 2 says:   "14But a natural man does not accept the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot understand them, because they are spiritually appraised.  15But he who is spiritual appraises all things, yet he himself is appraised by no one.
                            He is not talking about immature believers, he is talking about 'a nautral man', in comparison to 'he who is spiritual' -  a believer, who possesses the Spirit.
                             

                            You said: : Paul nowhere, ever, says that unregenerate man
                            cannot understand the gospel, he says just the opposite
                            in Acts 28:28.
                              I say:  Acts 28:28 says: "Therefore let it be known to you that this salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles; they will also listen."   Where does it say that the unregenerate - the natural man- can understand the Gospel???
                            From this verse, do you believe that every Gentile will be saved?  Does your translation say 'every Gentile'?  The truth is that the door had been shut for the Jews as a nation, and with that, God begins His delaing with another entity: the Church.  Some Jews would still believe, and the church would be made up of both... but as for the nation Israel, it was 'cut off' and the church was grafted in, until a future time.  If we look at history, we see that the Church has been pirmarily Gentile in makeup...and the Jews have been, for the most part, unbelievers.  He does not even address 'unregenerate' or 'regenerate' here....  He is just saying that he is turning form the Jews to the Gentiles.  The message was going out just as God had commanded- to the Ejws, the samaritans, and to the Gentiles.
                            Act 1:8  but you will receive power when the Holy Spirit has come upon you; and you shall be My witnesses both in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and even to the remotest part of the earth."
                             Also, Rom 1:6, 2:9-10.
                             
                             
                             
                             > You said: It is fairly easy to demonstrate the
                            > absurdity of thinking that Paul's original audience
                            > would have understood "calling" in the reformed
                            > sense of "an effectual work of God in the heart". I
                            > say: Ok, I await your proof.
                            gm: Well, here are the facts:
                            1. The Greek word 'klesis' means...um.. .it means
                            calling, as in an invitation. That's what Paul's
                            readers would have understood.
                            I say:  No arguments here... 
                             

                            2. The Reformed definition of "an effectual work in the
                            heart" is not articulated anywhere in Scripture. You
                            can't even find verses to that effect without reading
                            it into them.
                            I say:  see below.
                             

                            3. The church at Corinth was spiritually immature. Paul
                            said he couldn't speak to them as spiritual, they still
                            couldn't take solid spiritual food. But somehow you
                            think they would intuitively understand "calling" in
                            this Reformed theological sense 1500 years before it
                            was articulated.
                                    I say:  that is precisely what Paul is attemting to show them- Becasue they are immature, they need teaching.   They had to see that
                            1Cr 1:30  

                            But by His doing you are in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God, and righteousness and sanctification, and redemption,

                             

                             

                            1Cr 2:4  and my message and my preaching were not in persuasive words of wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power,
                            1Cr 2:5  so that your faith would not rest on the wisdom of men, but on the power of God
                            Here is not talking about the 'deep things of God', but their faith.  That is salvation.
                             
                             
                             
                            Read
                            1Cr 1:19  For it is written, "I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE, AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE."
                            1Cr 1:20  Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
                            1Cr 1:21  For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not {come to} know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.
                            1Cr 1:22  For indeed Jews ask for signs and Greeks search for wisdom;
                            1Cr 1:23  but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness,
                            1Cr 1:24  but to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
                             
                            Are you saying that all who hear the gospel, both Jews and Greeks, see the cross as the power of God, and the wisdom of God?  That is the only conclusion you can come to, if you do not see this 'calling' as being internal....the work of God in the heart.  You must believe that all who hear the good news, whether they receive it or reject it, are saved.  The are all 'called', when they hear it. 
                             

                            You said: Please don't mistake zeal for anger. I'll admit I get a bit testy when frustrated, and I have a bit of a tendency toward sarcasm, which I try mightily to control. I gain from the debate, because I am forced over and over to examine my position in the light of
                            Scripture.

                                I say: As I have said many times- I dont care if we never convince each other of anything... the objective is to EXPLAIN what we believe, and why.  If you are trying to convince me, forget it.  I have been there, and have argued your position for years.  I just now believe that the weight of evidence supports the 'sovereignty of God' position.  If you get frustrated because I dont see it your way, and we can not agree to disagree, then what is objective?  Frustration?  It's not worth the time or effort, if that is the case.
                             
                            ron


                            Since I cant’ be a good example, It may be that my sole purpose in life is simply to serve as a warning to others.



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                          • clontzjm
                            Hello Ron, I hope you had a good ride. The question is why God doesn t choose someone. God doesn t choose those who reject Him. However of those who don t
                            Message 13 of 23 , Jun 4, 2007
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                              Hello Ron,

                              I hope you had a good ride.

                              The question is why God doesn't choose someone. God doesn't choose
                              those who reject Him. However of those who don't "reject Him," God
                              chooses who He will according to his own purpose. So just because a
                              person doesn't reject God doesn't mean that God will choose them –
                              He might or He might not.

                              There are those who serve Satan through ignorance. Once a person
                              accepts the idea that they might be ignorant of Satan and God i.e.
                              spiritual things then they are no longer actively rejecting God.

                              There is another consideration that we should consider – what about
                              a person who is demonically possessed? They are inhabited by Satan.
                              Before the Spirit will indwell, Satan must be cast out. Does God
                              choose those who are demonically possessed? If I understand your
                              view, once God chooses a person they are regenerated and the Spirit
                              indwells. And the person can't be regenerated until the Spirit
                              indwells. God and Satan will not indwell in the same being – no one
                              can serve two masters. Or do you believe that God chooses those who
                              are demonically possessed?

                              Jerry


                              --- In christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com, RZacc <rzacc2001@...>
                              wrote:
                              >
                              > Jerry: I only have a minute..the sun just came out again...time
                              to ride :>)
                              >
                              > But, let's address one statement,
                              > "God does not choose who will be saved"
                              > not just from that one section, in 1 Cor., and your
                              interpretation of it, but from the New Testament in general. What
                              we believe (our doctrine) must rest on the entire weight of
                              scripture, not on one verse. So please allow me to just identify a
                              FEW verses which must be explained away, in order for your
                              interpretation on 1 Cor 1:26 to be valid.
                              >
                              > I will concede defeat and rethink my conviction on the
                              sovereignty of God if you can explain away the following verses.
                              These are ones I picked out in about 3 minutes...not 2 hours. There
                              are more, but let us address these first, then we can go on.
                              >
                              > Please realize that my intention is NOT to convince you of
                              ANYTHING, and not to win any arguments. My purpose is to simply
                              explain why I believe as I do - and hopefully you can at least
                              understand WHY. I must take synthesis seriously, and must critique
                              my conclusions on any subject based upon the entire counsel of God.
                              Please take a moment to see things from my perspective. If you
                              disagree, then fine, we can agree to disagree.
                              >
                              > Also, I believe I quoted other Scriptures in the past, and used
                              some logic to address this also... you might just think about those
                              things also. You are free to disregard anything and everything I
                              say unless it conforms to scripture.
                              >
                              > Here are some verses to consider - most from the New Testament,
                              but not all:
                              >
                              > John 15:19 If you were of the world, the world would love its own;
                              but because you are not of the world, but I chose you out of the
                              world, because of this the world hates you.
                              >
                              > John 15:16 " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed
                              you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would
                              remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may
                              give to you.
                              >
                              > Mark 13:20 Unless the Lord had shortened those days, no life would
                              have been saved; but for the sake of the elect, whom He chose, He
                              shortened the days.
                              >
                              > Ezekiel 20:5 and say to them, 'Thus says the Lord GOD, "On the day
                              when I chose Israel and swore to the descendants of the house of
                              Jacob and made Myself known to them in the land of Egypt, when I
                              swore to them, saying, I am the LORD your God,
                              >
                              > Psalm 78:67He also rejected the tent of Joseph,And did not choose
                              the tribe of Ephraim, 68But chose the tribe of Judah,
                              >
                              > Acts 13:17 "The God of this people Israel chose our fathers and
                              made the people great during their stay in the land of Egypt, and
                              with an uplifted arm He led them out from it.
                              >
                              > Ephesians 1:4 just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of
                              the world, that we would be holy and blameless before Him In love
                              >
                              > Acts 15:6-86 The apostles and the elders came together to look
                              into this matter. 7After there had been much debate, Peter stood up
                              and said to them, "Brethren, you know that in the early days God
                              made a choice among you, that by my mouth the Gentiles would hear
                              the word of the gospel and believe. 8"And God, who knows the heart,
                              testified to them giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He also did
                              to us;
                              >
                              > Romans 11:5In the same way then, there has also come to be at the
                              present time a remnant according to God's gracious choice.
                              >
                              >
                              > Romans 11:28 From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies
                              for your sake, but from the standpoint of God's choice they are
                              beloved for the sake of the fathers;
                              >
                              > 1 Thessalonians 1:4 knowing, brethren beloved by God, His choice
                              of you;
                              >
                              > Romans 11:29 for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.
                              >
                              > 1 Corinthians 1:2To the church of God which is at Corinth, to
                              those who have been sanctified in Christ Jesus, saints by calling,
                              with all who in every place call on the name of our Lord Jesus
                              Christ,
                              >
                              > Ephesians 1:18 I pray that the eyes of your heart may be
                              enlightened, so that you will know what is the hope of His calling,
                              what are the riches of the glory of His inheritance in the saints,
                              >
                              > Ephesians 4:1 Therefore I, the prisoner of the Lord, implore you
                              to walk in a manner worthy of the calling with which you have been
                              called,
                              >
                              > 2 Thessalonians 1:11To this end also we pray for you always, that
                              our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every
                              desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,
                              >
                              > 2 Timothy 1:9 who has saved us and called us with a holy calling,
                              not according to our works, but according to His own purpose and
                              grace which was granted us in Christ Jesus from all eternity,
                              >
                              > Hebrews 3:1Therefore, holy brethren, partakers of a heavenly
                              calling, consider Jesus, the Apostle and High Priest of our
                              confession;
                              >
                              >
                              > 1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus
                              Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born
                              again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from
                              the dead,
                              >
                              > 2 Peter 1:3His divine power has given us everything we need for
                              life and godliness through our knowledge of him who called us by his
                              own glory and goodness.
                              >
                              > 2 Peter 1:10Therefore, my brothers, be all the more eager to make
                              your calling and election sure. For if you do these things, you will
                              never fall,
                              >
                              > 1 Thessalonians 5:9 For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath but
                              to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.
                              >
                              > 2 Timothy 2:10For this reason I endure all things for the sake of
                              those who are chosen, so that they also may obtain the salvation
                              which is in Christ Jesus and with it eternal glory.
                              >
                              >
                              > 1 Peter 1:1Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside
                              as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia,
                              and Bithynia, who are chosen
                              >
                              > Acts 2:39 For the promise is for you and your children and for all
                              who are far off, as many as the Lord our God will call to Himself."
                              >
                              > Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and
                              glorifying the word of the Lord; and as many as had been appointed
                              to eternal life believed.
                              >
                              > John 17:2 even as You gave Him authority over all flesh, that to
                              all whom You have given Him, He may give eternal life.
                              >
                              > John 17: 6 "I have manifested Your name to the men whom You gave
                              Me out of the world; they were Yours and You gave them to Me, and
                              they have kept Your word.
                              >
                              > John17:9: I ask on their behalf; I do not ask on behalf of the
                              world, but of those whom You have given Me; for they are Yours;
                              >
                              > John 17: 14"I have given them Your word; and the world has hated
                              them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the
                              world.
                              >
                              > John 17:24 "Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given
                              Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You
                              have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.
                              >
                              > Romans 9: 11 for though the twins were not yet born and had not
                              done anything good or bad, so that God's purpose according to His
                              choice would stand, not because of works but because of Him who
                              calls,
                              >
                              > Romans 9:15 For He says to Moses, "I WILL HAVE MERCY ON WHOM I
                              HAVE MERCY, AND I WILL HAVE COMPASSION ON WHOM I HAVE COMPASSION."
                              16So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who
                              runs, but on God who has mercy.
                              >
                              > Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens
                              whom He desires.
                              >
                              >
                              > Rom 9:20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to
                              God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make
                              me like this," will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over
                              the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use
                              and another for common use?
                              >
                              > Romans 9:22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath
                              and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of
                              wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the
                              riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared
                              beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from
                              among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles.
                              >
                              >
                              > om 9: 25 As He says also in Hosea, "I WILL CALL THOSE WHO WERE NOT
                              MY PEOPLE, 'MY PEOPLE,' AND HER WHO WAS NOT BELOVED, 'BELOVED.'"
                              >
                              > Rom 9:18 So then He has mercy on whom He desires, and He hardens
                              whom He desires.
                              >
                              >
                              > Rom 9: 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to
                              God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, "Why did you make
                              me like this," will it? 21Or does not the potter have a right over
                              the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use
                              and another for common use?
                              >
                              > Titus 3:4 But when the kindness of God our Savior and His love for
                              mankind appeared, 5He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we
                              have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the
                              washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit,
                              >
                              >
                              > John 3:3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to
                              you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of
                              God."… :7"Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born
                              again.' 8" The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of
                              it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is
                              everyone who is born of the Spirit."
                              >
                              > John 6: 44"No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me
                              draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. 45"It is
                              written in the prophets, 'AND THEY SHALL ALL BE TAUGHT OF GOD.'
                              Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father, comes to Me.
                              >
                              > John 6:39"This is the will of Him who sent Me, that of all that He
                              has given Me I lose nothing, but raise it up on the last day.
                              >
                              >
                              > John 6:65And He was saying, "For this reason I have said to you,
                              that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted him from the
                              Father."
                              >
                              > >>>>> Look at the result: 66 As a result of this many of His
                              disciples withdrew and were not walking with Him anymore.
                              >
                              >
                              > God Bless! Again, I can only hope to explain why I believe as I
                              do. It makes not one wit of difference to me WHAT "Reformed
                              doctrine" teaches.... I could care less. As a matter of fact, in
                              the whole scheme of things, I am not reformed, but dispensational,
                              except for the area of soteriology.
                              >
                              > May the Lord Bless you beyond measure, to His glory.
                              >
                              >
                              > In His Love.
                              > your brother ron
                              >
                              > Eagles might soar, but weasels don't get sucked into jet engines!
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              _____________________________________________________________________
                              _______________
                              > Bored stiff? Loosen up...
                              > Download and play hundreds of games for free on Yahoo! Games.
                              > http://games.yahoo.com/games/front
                              >
                            • clontzjm
                              Hello Gerry, I realize that you addressed this to Ron. I have a perspective that you might want to consider. Gerry: before one can be indwelt so as to
                              Message 14 of 23 , Jun 4, 2007
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                                Hello Gerry,

                                I realize that you addressed this to Ron. I have a perspective that
                                you might want to consider.

                                Gerry: before one can be indwelt so as to understand these things
                                [spiritual], they have to
                                understand and believe the gospel.

                                Jerry: Could it be that they believe and have faith in the gospel –
                                in a literal sense? Then after regeneration they understand the
                                gospel in a spiritual sense. The gospel includes not only the new
                                testament gospels but those portions of the old testament that Pre-
                                figure, Fore-shadow, or reflect the New Testament gospels. The
                                writings of Moses contain in shadow the gospel of the new testament.
                                When the veil is removed from the writings of Moses the gospel of
                                the new testament is perceived. The New Testament gospels can't be
                                fully understood until the veil is removed since they refer to the
                                writings of Moses. For instance in Matthew 26:54 "How then should
                                the scriptures be fulfilled that thus it must be?" Jesus refers to
                                the prophecy in the Old Testament concerning Simon Peter striking
                                with the sword and being upbraided for using it. So if someone were
                                to read Matthew 26:54 without being able to remove the veil, they
                                wouldn't understand which prophecy in the Old Testament Jesus was
                                referring to. However with the veil removed, the prophecies in the
                                Old Testament can be compared with the outcome in the New Testament
                                and then there can be no doubt that Jesus is the Son of God. Thus a
                                person moves from faith and belief in a literal sense to
                                understanding in the spiritual sense.

                                Jerry


                                --- In christian-philosophy@yahoogroups.com, Gerry McPherson
                                <emerald67@...> wrote:
                                >
                                > Hi Ron:
                                >
                                > RZacc wrote:
                                > > Two hours? Wow, I am sorry 'bout that. Where do
                                > > you live? Here we get that daily...with lightning..
                                > > I have learned to save what i am doing periodically.
                                >
                                > gm: I'm in N. Illinois, about 50 miles NW of Chicago. I
                                > use Thunderbird for email, and it always, without fail,
                                > saves work to draft about every five minutes - except
                                > this time. And there was no storm, no lightening, just
                                > our wonderful power distribution system. I finally
                                > bought a generator after a three day power out last
                                > summer - that one was due to some serious widespread
                                > wind damage. The Lord spared me the damage, but He
                                > apparently thought I needed a little inconvenience :-)
                                >
                                > > Re: 1 Cor 1:26- Please read the next verse: 27but
                                > > God has chosen the foolish things of the world to
                                > > shame the wise, and God has chosen the weak things
                                > > of the world to shame the things which are strong,
                                > > 28 and the base things of the world and the despised
                                > > God has chosen, the things that are not, so that He
                                > > may nullify the things that are, 29so that no man
                                > > may boast before God. 30 But by His doing you are
                                > > in Christ Jesus, who became to us wisdom from God,
                                > > and righteousness and sanctification, and
                                > > redemption,
                                >
                                > gm: I addressed these.
                                >
                                > > Other verses in the same context: 9 God is
                                > > faithful, through whom you were called into
                                > > fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.
                                > >
                                > > What is he saying in :26? Simply that God has called
                                > > you regardless of your state or your wisdom or your
                                > > mental or moral ability.
                                >
                                > gm: In other words, God was not aware, when He was
                                > choosing men for salvation, that he was choosing fewer
                                > of certain types of people. Is that what you're
                                > saying? I'm sure it's not.
                                >
                                > gm: Are you also saying that even without the effectual
                                > call, more of these types of people would have believed
                                > if God hadn't used the foolish things of this world to
                                > confound them? Sort of a belt and suspenders approach?
                                >
                                > gm: You have deftly tap-danced around the point. But it
                                > will come up again, I'm persistent.
                                >
                                > gm: Just read v.26 from your own paradigm: "See you're
                                > [effectual]calling brethren, that not many wise
                                > according to the flesh, not many mighty, not many
                                > noble, are [effectually] called."
                                >
                                > gm: You can't seem to admit that Paul is calling
                                > attention to the fact that not many of certain type of
                                > people are effectually called (and therefore not elect).
                                >
                                > > IN :19-22, he says that it
                                > > is not because of your wisdom or anything else! IT
                                > > is because God called and chose you! Please look at:
                                > > 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, to Jews a
                                > > stumbling block and to Gentiles foolishness, 24but
                                > > to those who are the called, both Jews and Greeks,
                                > > Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God.
                                > > That is so clear- we have JEWS, and we have
                                > > Gentiles....is that not everyone on earth????
                                >
                                > gm: Oh dear! Textual criticism strikes again. Paul
                                > consistently pairs Jews and Greeks. Do a concordance
                                > substring search for "Greek" in Paul using the KJV or
                                > NKJV. You will find 14 occurrences. In all but two,
                                > Greek is paired with Jew when it is in a doctrinal
                                > context - that's 12 of the 14 times. One of the two
                                > other occurrences of "Greek" in Paul is when he
                                > identifies Titus as a Greek (Gal 2:3). The other is this:
                                >
                                > Rom 1:14 NKJV I am a debtor both to Greeks and to
                                > barbarians, both to wise and to unwise.
                                >
                                > gm: Paul, in fact, viewed men in three categories, Jew,
                                > Greeks, and barbarians, Gentiles being comprised of the
                                > latter two.
                                >
                                > gm: Notice also the parallelism:
                                >
                                > Greeks - barbarians
                                > wise - unwise
                                >
                                > gm: Jews considered themselves above others because
                                > they were God's chosen people, they had Abraham as
                                > their father, they had Moses and the law and the prophets.
                                >
                                > gm: Greeks also (both Greeks proper and those who
                                > adopted Greek culture and religion) held themselves to
                                > be wiser and more sophisticated than others.
                                >
                                > gm: And then there are the barbarians, Joe Gentile, but
                                > without the baggage associated with the Jews and Greeks.
                                >
                                > gm: Paul pairs Jew and Greek 5 times in 1 Corinthians
                                > alone, and three of those are in 1 Cor 1:22-24, which
                                > passage we are looking at. I don't consider the textual
                                > critics to be infallible, and I believe they made a bad
                                > call in v.23, it should be Jews...Greeks, just like
                                > Paul consistently does everywhere else. And especially
                                > considering that Paul was writing to a church in
                                > Greece, on the subject of wisdom (cf. Rom 1:14 again).
                                >
                                > gm: But my opinion doesn't matter, Scripture does.
                                > After a day long conversation with some Jews, who
                                > rejected the gospel, Paul said this:
                                >
                                > Act 28:28 NKJV "Therefore let it be known to you that
                                > the salvation of God has been sent to the Gentiles, and
                                > they will hear it!"
                                >
                                > gm: Take hold of those last four words: The Gentiles
                                > will hear it! So Paul thinks the gospel is foolishness
                                > to all Gentiles you say? I say no, because Paul says
                                > no. Paul says the Gentiles, unlike the providentially
                                > blind and deaf Jews, will hear, i.e. perceive and
                                > understand the message of salvation. Just as Paul
                                > generalizes about the blindness and unbelief of the
                                > Jews, in this verse he makes a general statement about
                                > Gentiles in direct contrast to the Jews.
                                >
                                > gm: That should give you pause. You should see that
                                > Paul does not believe that Gentiles find the gospel to
                                > be foolishness, on the contrary, in general, they will
                                > listen and understand it.
                                >
                                > > YES... unless there is another group, which is
                                > > spiritual group! Verse 24but to those who are the
                                > > called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of
                                > > God and the wisdom of God.
                                >
                                > gm: But aren't those the effectually called? Isn't Paul
                                > pointing out, explicitly, that only a few of certain
                                > types had been effectually called. You can't get away
                                > from v.26.
                                >
                                > > Now, you said: "Let's pick some numbers arbitrarily
                                > > that reflect what Paul said. Let's say there were
                                > > 100 believers in that church. And let's say that 10
                                > > of them fit the description of the "not many's"."
                                > >
                                > > I say? Where do you get this?
                                >
                                > gm: What do you mean, "Where do you get this?" I get
                                > this from a plain reading of v.26. Good Grief! You
                                > don't like numbers? Okay, let's say that there were
                                > some called in the church at Corinth, and not many of
                                > those called were "wise...mighty...noble" (Oh, wait,
                                > that's what Paul said isn't it?). Why weren't many of
                                > those types called? Because God did not call many of
                                > those types. Right? Can't you bring yourself to say
                                > it? :-)
                                >
                                > > You continue: Now, in Reformed thought, the
                                > > effectual call has a 1 to 1 correspondence with
                                > > election. So if the calling in v.26 is the effectual
                                > > call, then we would be correct in paraphrasing
                                > > Paul in terms of election as saying, "You see your
                                > > election brethren."
                                > >
                                > > I say: Hu? I think you are saying that all who are
                                > > elect are called, effectually. Is that right?
                                >
                                > gm: No, I stated the converse, which is that all who
                                > are effectually called are elect, which is what
                                > Reformed theology also holds - the two go together.
                                >
                                > > You said: The question that needs to be answered
                                > > with respect to v.26 is this: How did it come to be
                                > > that only 10 out of the 100 effectually called were
                                > > types "wise...noble...mighty"? The only possible
                                > > answer for Reformed theology is that God only
                                > > elected 10 of those types, and effectually called
                                > > the same 10.
                                > >
                                > > I say: Yes, and that is answered in
                                > > the rest of the section, on into Ch 2.
                                >
                                > gm: Then you agree that it was God's intent to elect
                                > only 10 (or whatever the number actually was) of those
                                > types of people? (Or was it just luck of the draw?) And
                                > Paul was pointing out to the church at Corinth that God
                                > had not chosen many of those types of people (which
                                > means God took the type of person into account at
                                > election time). Or was Paul saying something inane,
                                > like the low numbers for these types of people really
                                > was just the luck of the draw?
                                >
                                > gm: You keep going to v.27ff as though the way in which
                                > people see God's methods (as foolishness or not) has
                                > anything to do with whether or not they believe. That
                                > contradicts Reformed doctrine. God chooses, period.
                                > It's foolishness to everyone until God regenerates
                                > them, period. You can't squeeze v.27-29 into your
                                > paradigm. So what if it's foolishness? God chooses men
                                > and they no longer see it as foolishness, and the one's
                                > he doesn't choose continue to see it as foolishness.
                                > So why did he choose to enlighten only a few, the "not
                                > many wise...mighty...noble." Why not be impartial and
                                > make it 50/50.
                                >
                                > gm: Imagine sitting in the assembly at Corinth and
                                > hearing this letter, and you believe that God chooses
                                > who will be saved. The only conclusion you could come
                                > to is that God is biased against certain types of
                                > people - He didn't choose many of them, and in fact he
                                > biased the entire plan of salvation against them.
                                >
                                > > You say:"That answer has some ramifications: 1. The
                                > > doctrine of unconditional election collapses,
                                > > because Paul is affirming that God elected and
                                > > called having certain types of people in mind.
                                > > [Either that, or he's not really saying anything
                                > > significant, and he might as well have spared the
                                > > ink.]
                                > >
                                > > I say: The doctrine of election is affirmed because
                                > > it is not of man's wisdom, stature, or position, but
                                > > of Him who calls. GOD chooses whom He will.
                                >
                                > gm; Okee-dokee then. It was God's will to not chose
                                > many wise [wisdom]...mighty [stature]...noble
                                > [position]. Conditional choosing (aka, conditional
                                > election). Regardless of v.27-29, it is God's choosing
                                > that makes the determination, right? Right!
                                >
                                > > You say: 2. God's actions described in v.27-29 are
                                > > superfluous and unnecessary. In Reformed thought,
                                > > all spiritual things are foolishness to the
                                > > unregenerate anyway, so how do the foolish things of
                                > > the world have any impact on who believes?
                                > >
                                > > I say: 1. According to the Bible all foolish
                                > > spiritual things are foolishness to the
                                > > unregenerate: 1 Cor 2:14.
                                >
                                > gm: According to an explicit statement by Paul in Acts
                                > 28:28, this is not true. And 1 Cor 2:14 is speaking
                                > about things that only those who have the Spirit can
                                > understand. In the preceding verses Paul made it clear
                                > that these are the deep things of God. Just as only
                                > the spirit in a man knows the thoughts of a man, so
                                > only the Spirit of God knows the thoughts of God.
                                > There are spiritual truths beyond the gospel that can
                                > only be understood by those who are indwelt by the
                                > Spirit. Paul is leading up to chapter 3 where he zings
                                > the church at Corinth for not being able to take solid
                                > spiritual food. The natural man, not indwelt by the
                                > Spirit cannot understand these things, but the
                                > Corinthians have no excuse. And before one can be
                                > indwelt so as to understand these things, they have to
                                > understand and believe the gospel. So the gospel
                                > message per se is excluded from the "things" in v.14.
                                >
                                > gm: Paul nowhere, ever, says that unregenerate man
                                > cannot understand the gospel, he says just the opposite
                                > in Acts 28:28.
                                >
                                > <cut>
                                >
                                > > You said: It is fairly easy to demonstrate the
                                > > absurdity of thinking that Paul's original audience
                                > > would have understood "calling" in the reformed
                                > > sense of "an effectual work of God in the heart". I
                                > > say: Ok, I await your proof.
                                >
                                > gm: Well, here are the facts:
                                >
                                > 1. The Greek word 'klesis' means...um...it means
                                > calling, as in an invitation. That's what Paul's
                                > readers would have understood.
                                >
                                > 2. The Reformed definition of "an effectual work in the
                                > heart" is not articulated anywhere in Scripture. You
                                > can't even find verses to that effect without reading
                                > it into them.
                                >
                                > 3. The church at Corinth was spiritually immature. Paul
                                > said he couldn't speak to them as spiritual, they still
                                > couldn't take solid spiritual food. But somehow you
                                > think they would intuitively understand "calling" in
                                > this Reformed theological sense 1500 years before it
                                > was articulated.
                                >
                                > > You said: It is also easy to show that the apostle
                                > > Paul did not believe that every unregenerate person
                                > > finds the gospel to be foolishness. I say: OK, I
                                > > await your proof.
                                >
                                > gm; Given above in the discussion of Acts 28:28.
                                >
                                > > Please give me about 5 minutes and I'll get back
                                > > with you on that one summary statement.
                                > >
                                > > Thanks for your patience and your tolerance of me,
                                > > as I hold a different view. I know it gets
                                > > frustrating when that happens, and it is so easy to
                                > > get angry. May God continue to work in your heart
                                > > to His Glory.
                                >
                                > gm; Please don't mistake zeal for anger. I'll admit I
                                > get a bit testy when frustrated, and I have a bit of a
                                > tendency toward sarcasm, which I try mightily to
                                > control. I gain from the debate, because I am forced
                                > over and over to examine my position in the light of
                                > Scripture.
                                >
                                > Regards,
                                > Gerry
                                >
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