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RE: [ChineseCultureOnline] marry

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  • Danny Freeman
    Being married to a Chinese as well, I think this preference is fairly simple from both sides. Once you take away the cultural and situational aspects of a
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 1, 2005
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      Being married to a Chinese as well, I think this preference is fairly simple from both sides.  Once you take away the cultural and situational aspects of a persons life you find almost all people have the same basic needs and wants.  In this case both the men and the women wish simply to be loved and for that love to be expressed in ways they can both see and appreciate.  Love is a bit less expressive and difficult to see from both Chinese men and western women because of these situational and cultural aspects.  I think you will see many more Chinese/western matches (espeacially with Chinese women/western men) for quite some time because of this. 
       
      The other adjustments are for the most part easy to make to people in love or simply the kind of thing any couple would have to deal with.  If the couples expectations are realistic and they communicate well they will probably do as well (or better) as any couple anywhere.  Statistics aside, maturity, communication, and having realistic expectations are what hold love relationships together in any culture.
       
      Also, you must remember that a new world culture is developing from the world wide change in these situational and cultural settings.  It is no longer so difficult to meet and fall in love with someone from half way around the world.  Virtually every culture in the world is currently in flux.  As these cultures mix and the world becomes smaller it should come as no surprise that some very good matches are found.  We should also not be surprised that people continue to fall in love and defy the odds as they have always done.    Maybe a few of these Chinese women/western guys have found a modern silk road.  Just a thought:).

      Renato Morbach <renato@...> wrote:
      Well, I'm married to a Chinese and in our company we have 3 more cases like that. From what I understand from the ladies, there is a big difference in treatment from a foreigner versus a Chinese. A Western is more attuned to the needs of his companion, while the Chinese are more traditional and independent. Marrying a Chinese, the girl will not be the queen of the household as that position is taken by the guys mother. The Chinese guys tend to spend a lot of time with their male friends, and are reluctant to help with house chores, while Western guys spend more time with the girls and help in the chores. There's a large list of little things that added together make some girls prefer foreigners.
       
      In the other hand many Chinese families oppose such weddings because they are not sure the foreign husband will follow the traditions that Chinese man do. Also many are afraid the Western guys will take them daughters away and sell them to sex trade.
       
      And a foreigner have to adapt himself to the fact that his Chinese wife will put a tight control on his spending. Chinese wives are very saving minded, and all expenses seem unnecessary to them (many really are...). All of the foreign guys I know married to Chinese, have to check with "lou po" before shopping for something, otherwise they will be scolded...
       
      renato


      From: Hyde Park [mailto:hydepark9299@...]
      Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 02:53
      To: ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [ChineseCultureOnline] marry

      Interesting. Why do most Chinese think they would get
      along better or have more in common with a foreigner
      than a fellow Chinese?


      Chinese yearn to marry foreigners: survey
      AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE

      Nearly 63 per cent of Chinese citizens would like to
      marry a foreigner, according to a survey published on
      Thursday of contemporary Chinese attitudes towards
      international marriage.

      The survey by Chinese web portal sina.com showed 62.7
      per cent of the 10,381 people questioned favoured
      marrying someone other than a fellow citizen.

      It did not set out the reasons why, although 12.78 per
      cent of respondants said they felt Chinese
      "worshipped" foreigners and their lifestyle.

      About 75 per cent said that cultural differences would
      be their biggest concern when considering such a
      marriage.

      "Every international marriage is challenged by
      cultural and language differences," Chen Guangyao, an
      official with the Ministry of Civil Affairs, was cited
      as saying by the Beijing Morning Post.

      "Whether it succeeds or not depends to what extent the
      bride and groom are ready to handle these
      differences."

      International marriages in China have experienced two
      distinct periods.

      In the 1980s and 1990s some Chinese people married
      primarily for convenience, either to get visas for
      overseas studies or to be able to move to a foreign
      country.

      But since the turn of the century, such marriages were
      more likely to be based on love, said Chen.

      Marrying a foreigner is no guarantee of long-lasting
      happiness, said the paper, citing a separate survey
      showing that international marriages tend to have high
      divorce rates.

      The survey by the Shanghai municipal government showed
      60 per cent of marriages between Chinese and Canadians
      failed.

      END




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    • ming18ming2003
      hehe... this is all together very interesting. Renato and all, please tell us more. hehe...i mean some sounds a bit funny, excuse me please, :) i mean need to
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 2, 2005
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        hehe... this is all together very interesting. Renato and all, please
        tell us more. hehe...i mean some sounds a bit funny, excuse me
        please, :) i mean need to ask the wife before buying some suff and
        otherwise... sorry, but i didn't know my sisters could be this lihai
        (sai lei in Cantonese, meaning fierce or something) hehe... yea,,
        please do tell us more.

        jane


        --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, "Renato Morbach"
        <renato@d...> wrote:
        > Well, I'm married to a Chinese and in our company we have 3 more
        cases like
        > that. From what I understand from the ladies, there is a big
        difference in
        > treatment from a foreigner versus a Chinese. A Western is more
        attuned to
        > the needs of his companion, while the Chinese are more traditional
        and
        > independent. Marrying a Chinese, the girl will not be the queen of
        the
        > household as that position is taken by the guys mother. The Chinese
        guys
        > tend to spend a lot of time with their male friends, and are
        reluctant to
        > help with house chores, while Western guys spend more time with the
        girls
        > and help in the chores. There's a large list of little things that
        added
        > together make some girls prefer foreigners.
        >
        > In the other hand many Chinese families oppose such weddings
        because they
        > are not sure the foreign husband will follow the traditions that
        Chinese man
        > do. Also many are afraid the Western guys will take them daughters
        away and
        > sell them to sex trade.
        >
        > And a foreigner have to adapt himself to the fact that his Chinese
        wife will
        > put a tight control on his spending. Chinese wives are very saving
        minded,
        > and all expenses seem unnecessary to them (many really are...). All
        of the
        > foreign guys I know married to Chinese, have to check with "lou po"
        before
        > shopping for something, otherwise they will be scolded...
        >
        > renato
        >
        > _____
        >
        > From: Hyde Park [mailto:hydepark9299@y...]
        > Sent: Friday, April 01, 2005 02:53
        > To: ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com
        > Subject: [ChineseCultureOnline] marry
        >
        >
        > Interesting. Why do most Chinese think they would get
        > along better or have more in common with a foreigner
        > than a fellow Chinese?
        >
        >
        > Chinese yearn to marry foreigners: survey
        > AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE
        >
        > Nearly 63 per cent of Chinese citizens would like to
        > marry a foreigner, according to a survey published on
        > Thursday of contemporary Chinese attitudes towards
        > international marriage.
        >
        > The survey by Chinese web portal sina.com showed 62.7
        > per cent of the 10,381 people questioned favoured
        > marrying someone other than a fellow citizen.
        >
        > It did not set out the reasons why, although 12.78 per
        > cent of respondants said they felt Chinese
        > "worshipped" foreigners and their lifestyle.
        >
        > About 75 per cent said that cultural differences would
        > be their biggest concern when considering such a
        > marriage.
        >
        > "Every international marriage is challenged by
        > cultural and language differences," Chen Guangyao, an
        > official with the Ministry of Civil Affairs, was cited
        > as saying by the Beijing Morning Post.
        >
        > "Whether it succeeds or not depends to what extent the
        > bride and groom are ready to handle these
        > differences."
        >
        > International marriages in China have experienced two
        > distinct periods.
        >
        > In the 1980s and 1990s some Chinese people married
        > primarily for convenience, either to get visas for
        > overseas studies or to be able to move to a foreign
        > country.
        >
        > But since the turn of the century, such marriages were
        > more likely to be based on love, said Chen.
        >
        > Marrying a foreigner is no guarantee of long-lasting
        > happiness, said the paper, citing a separate survey
        > showing that international marriages tend to have high
        > divorce rates.
        >
        > The survey by the Shanghai municipal government showed
        > 60 per cent of marriages between Chinese and Canadians
        > failed.
        >
        > END
        >
        >
        >
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      • liang_jieming
        Chinese yearn to marry foreigners: survey Thu Mar 31,10:57 AM ET BEIJING (AFP) - Nearly 63 percent of Chinese citizens would like to marry a foreigner,
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 3, 2005
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          Chinese yearn to marry foreigners: survey
          Thu Mar 31,10:57 AM ET

          BEIJING (AFP) - Nearly 63 percent of Chinese citizens would like to
          marry a foreigner, according to a survey of contemporary Chinese
          attitudes towards international marriage.

          The survey by Chinese web portal sina.com showed 62.7 percent of the
          10,381 people questioned favoured marrying someone other than a fellow
          citizen.

          It did not set out the reasons why, although 12.78 percent of
          respondants said they felt Chinese "worshipped" foreigners and their
          lifestyle.

          About 75 percent said that cultural differences would be their biggest
          concern when considering such a marriage.

          "Every international marriage is challenged by cultural and language
          differences," Chen Guangyao, an official with the Ministry of Civil
          Affairs, was cited as saying by the Beijing Morning Post.

          "Whether it succeeds or not depends to what extent the bride and groom
          are ready to handle these differences."

          International marriages in China have experienced two distinct periods.

          In the 1980s and 1990s some Chinese people married primarily for
          convenience, either to get visas for overseas studies or to be able to
          move to a foreign country.

          But since the turn of the century, such marriages were more likely to
          be based on love, said Chen.

          Marrying a foreigner is no guarantee of long-lasting happiness, said
          the paper, citing a separate survey showing that international
          marriages tend to have high divorce rates.

          The survey by the Shanghai municipal government showed 60 percent of
          marriages between Chinese and Canadians failed.
        • JJ Dr
          Dear Liang, Article is very interesting. I am a foreigner but of Chinese origin and fourth generation overseas Chinese so I am considered a foreigner. My
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 3, 2005
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            Dear Liang,
             
            Article is very interesting. I am a foreigner but of Chinese origin and fourth generation overseas Chinese so I am considered a foreigner. My lifestyle is to all intensive purposes a mixture of a Pan Asiana lifestyle which has incorporated certain Western traits. If I marry a Chinese girl from the mainland I would also be concerned about the cultural differences in terms of expression since I speak English and the ancient dialects of Min nan Hua and Cantonese. I am glad that now marriages are based on love otherwise it must be unbearable if it is out of convenience. I do agree that divorce rates are high because expectations may be different especially if it is of a different ethnic origin. I wonder if there is a study done about marriages between mainlanders and overseas Chinese.
             
            Regards
             
            Dr Zheng


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          • liang_jieming
            Hi Dr. Zheng, We are seeing the same phenomenon here in Singapore. The article is correct in that the earlier marriages in the 80s and 90s were marriages of
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 3, 2005
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              Hi Dr. Zheng,

              We are seeing the same phenomenon here in Singapore. The article is
              correct in that the earlier marriages in the 80s and 90s were
              marriages of convenience and they more often than not resulted in
              divorce right after the citizenship in the foreign country is obtained.

              These days this is increasingly less and less so though the number of
              China chinese coming over to work illegally as well as legally is on
              the rise and many of them make it fairly obvious that they want to stay.

              Many issues remain even in a marriage with an overseas chinese. The
              difference in attitudes, practices and norms presents large problems
              to such couples let alone marriage with someone of a different ethnic
              group. Much sacriface must be made in both parties in order for the
              marriage to come to a basic understanding and to work. Westerners are
              more incline to marry for love alone, but this is not usual for
              chinese. Chinese women usually rate love not much further above other
              considerations if at all. Security, lifestyle, prestige/face, money,
              etc. are all considerations in marriage. Many women I know often
              chorus that "love is not enough" and they would be foolish to marry
              just for love.

              Jieming
              DragonSeedLegacy
              ChineseCultureOnline

              --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, JJ Dr <sribayu88@y...> wrote:
              > Dear Liang,
              >
              > Article is very interesting. I am a foreigner but of Chinese origin
              and fourth generation overseas Chinese so I am considered a foreigner.
              My lifestyle is to all intensive purposes a mixture of a Pan Asiana
              lifestyle which has incorporated certain Western traits. If I marry a
              Chinese girl from the mainland I would also be concerned about the
              cultural differences in terms of expression since I speak English and
              the ancient dialects of Min nan Hua and Cantonese. I am glad that now
              marriages are based on love otherwise it must be unbearable if it is
              out of convenience. I do agree that divorce rates are high because
              expectations may be different especially if it is of a different
              ethnic origin. I wonder if there is a study done about marriages
              between mainlanders and overseas Chinese.
              >
              > Regards
              >
              > Dr Zheng
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > ---------------------------------
              > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
              today! Download Messenger Now
            • ming18ming2003
              I just saw from a local TV program 12 Chinese guys being interviewed at their choice of girlfriends and wives. On Choosing girlfriends 6 voted that they were
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 6, 2005
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                I just saw from a local TV program 12 Chinese guys being interviewed
                at their choice of girlfriends and wives. On Choosing girlfriends 6
                voted that they were looking for both physical beauty and inner
                beauty. On choosing wives, surprisingly, all 12, (the same 12 guys)
                voted that they would look for inner beauties only.

                One young guy's explanation was: he needs to make sure his children
                would be reasonably educated, and because of this, he wants his
                future wife to be able to educate the children reasonably well, and
                that's why he put the inner beauty as his only criteria for a wife.

                I did hear before that guys here look for beautiful girlfriends but
                not beautiful wives. Someone said to me some guys don't really feel
                secure if they have beautiful wives.

                jane

                --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, "Renato Morbach"
                <renato@d...> wrote:
                > Well, I'm married to a Chinese and in our company we have 3 more
                cases like
                > that. From what I understand from the ladies, there is a big
                difference in
                > treatment from a foreigner versus a Chinese. A Western is more
                attuned to
                > the needs of his companion, while the Chinese are more traditional
                and
                > independent. Marrying a Chinese, the girl will not be the queen of
                the
                > household as that position is taken by the guys mother. The Chinese
                guys
                > tend to spend a lot of time with their male friends, and are
                reluctant to
                > help with house chores, while Western guys spend more time with the
                girls
                > and help in the chores. There's a large list of little things that
                added
                > together make some girls prefer foreigners.
                >
                > In the other hand many Chinese families oppose such weddings
                because they
                > are not sure the foreign husband will follow the traditions that
                Chinese man
                > do. Also many are afraid the Western guys will take them daughters
                away and
                > sell them to sex trade.
                >
                > And a foreigner have to adapt himself to the fact that his Chinese
                wife will
                > put a tight control on his spending. Chinese wives are very saving
                minded,
                > and all expenses seem unnecessary to them (many really are...). All
                of the
                > foreign guys I know married to Chinese, have to check with "lou po"
                before
                > shopping for something, otherwise they will be scolded...
                >
                > renato
                >
                > _____
                > /terms/> .
              • ming18ming2003
                I agree, a lot of Chinese women don t marry for love. Traditionally and culturally many Chinese women marry for good for the rest of her life, that means she
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 6, 2005
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                  I agree, a lot of Chinese women don't marry for love. Traditionally
                  and culturally many Chinese women marry for good for the rest of her
                  life, that means she looks for a marriage that she will be more or
                  less finacially secured for the rest of her life> the marrige
                  provides her a home by which she 'll be protected . with this
                  traditional or cultural mentality, the Chinese women are mostly very
                  much dependant. They are dependant naturally, and vice versa, many
                  Chinese men traditionally like taht they are dependant onto them. (A
                  scenario of two way streets as in many other things. ) I know this
                  case from a friend. The girl just started dating and falling in love
                  with the guy. It was still at the stage when they met not too long
                  ago. But the girl was falling for the guy somewhat hopelessly. She
                  was thinking of her one night and she could not sleep until early
                  morning. It wsa probably 2am, i remember that's what she said,
                  hopelessly she just could not stop thinking of him, so finally she
                  picked up all the courage and made a phone call to the guy. well, the
                  guy was sleeping sound, and apparently he was not pleased by this
                  girl by reccieving this phone call at that wrong time. While the girl
                  was enthusiastically asking him questions about him what a person he
                  was, he hanged up the phone and that was , according to the girl, the
                  thing that resulted the end of their relationship. The guy thought
                  the girl was too baby, hehe.. if you know what I mean, he thought the
                  girl was probably not mature enough or too dependant.

                  I recently had a conversation with some friends about those many
                  divorce cases between a Chinese woman and a non-Chinese man. One
                  friend actually said it's partly because the Chinese women have high
                  expectations out of marriage. I agree. Another thing I believe got to
                  be the cultural difference.

                  For example, I know this case. This Chinese girl was dating a
                  westerner. The first date the westerner was attracted to the girl and
                  same went to the girl. The westerner was trying to hold her hand but
                  the girl could not do that comfortably. The westerner was also
                  wanting to have intimate relationship with the girl a few days after
                  they first met. The westerner was probably sincere with the girl,
                  according to her, but the thing was this was not right by the girl's
                  culture. She didn't feel it right to have the physical relationship
                  with a guy say only a few days after they met, although she was in
                  love with the man. In the Chinese girl's culture, she wanted to test
                  on her man if he was truly interested in her or only in her body by
                  giving it a fair amount of time. Later I knew from this girl she felt
                  the western guy thought she was playing games on him. To him, it
                  didn't make sense that they had to wait since it was clear that they
                  were both in love. See this is how the cultural difference can
                  confuse people. I am not sure if the way I understand the situatioin
                  is true or not. Some of you may correct me.

                  Another issue has to do with the parents. Teh Chinese women are
                  usually great "order takers" from their mothers. Not meant for true
                  for all the people, as is the case for everything, but probably you
                  guys who are having a Chinese wife might need to watch out the
                  Chinese mother-in-law a bit. hehe.. They can be tough, allbecause ,
                  if I may say so, they love too much of the daughters and want to
                  protect the daughters and to the point to annoy their son-in-laws as
                  youw would well know it could be viewed as interference or its sort.
                  ahehe... You know, A lot of times, These old mothers can be their
                  daughters advisor. The same friend told me his friend ended up
                  breaking up with his girlfriend coz he simply could not handle the
                  too much pressure from the girl's parents.

                  Maybe you guys can advise what's the important things for a couple to
                  work out fine from a relationship or a marriage. What are the
                  difficulties? I mean I know there surely are lots of merits, hehe...

                  jane



                  --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, "liang_jieming"
                  <kitmengleong@y...> wrote:
                  >
                  > Hi Dr. Zheng,
                  >
                  > We are seeing the same phenomenon here in Singapore. The article
                  is
                  > correct in that the earlier marriages in the 80s and 90s were
                  > marriages of convenience and they more often than not resulted in
                  > divorce right after the citizenship in the foreign country is
                  obtained.
                  >
                  > These days this is increasingly less and less so though the number
                  of
                  > China chinese coming over to work illegally as well as legally is on
                  > the rise and many of them make it fairly obvious that they want to
                  stay.
                  >
                  > Many issues remain even in a marriage with an overseas chinese. The
                  > difference in attitudes, practices and norms presents large problems
                  > to such couples let alone marriage with someone of a different
                  ethnic
                  > group. Much sacriface must be made in both parties in order for the
                  > marriage to come to a basic understanding and to work. Westerners
                  are
                  > more incline to marry for love alone, but this is not usual for
                  > chinese. Chinese women usually rate love not much further above
                  other
                  > considerations if at all. Security, lifestyle, prestige/face,
                  money,
                  > etc. are all considerations in marriage. Many women I know often
                  > chorus that "love is not enough" and they would be foolish to marry
                  > just for love.
                  >
                  > Jieming
                  > DragonSeedLegacy
                  > ChineseCultureOnline
                  >
                  > --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, JJ Dr <sribayu88@y...>
                  wrote:
                  > > Dear Liang,
                  > >
                  > > Article is very interesting. I am a foreigner but of Chinese
                  origin
                  > and fourth generation overseas Chinese so I am considered a
                  foreigner.
                  > My lifestyle is to all intensive purposes a mixture of a Pan Asiana
                  > lifestyle which has incorporated certain Western traits. If I marry
                  a
                  > Chinese girl from the mainland I would also be concerned about the
                  > cultural differences in terms of expression since I speak English
                  and
                  > the ancient dialects of Min nan Hua and Cantonese. I am glad that
                  now
                  > marriages are based on love otherwise it must be unbearable if it is
                  > out of convenience. I do agree that divorce rates are high because
                  > expectations may be different especially if it is of a different
                  > ethnic origin. I wonder if there is a study done about marriages
                  > between mainlanders and overseas Chinese.
                  > >
                  > > Regards
                  > >
                  > > Dr Zheng
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > >
                  > > ---------------------------------
                  > > Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
                  > today! Download Messenger Now
                • ming18ming2003
                  No doubt, this has been changing, as told by the survey. The reason, I think, is obvious to me. The women today have been more and more financially
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 6, 2005
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                    No doubt, this has been changing, as told by the survey. The reason,
                    I think, is obvious to me. The women today have been more and more
                    financially independant, so they don't really have the necessity to
                    find a home that provides them financial security or that only.

                    Many modern Chinese women today are looking for more from life, love
                    is included for sure. things that their mothers and grandmothers were
                    only able to think/dream of but not able to obtain. '

                    And actually their ideal of love, that they are willing to do
                    evertying for true love, even including something like if they have
                    to wait until 60 - the HK female star Anita Mui who tragically passed
                    away a few years ago had this famous quote, she was looking for love
                    and marriage until the last day of her life, if love will come, it
                    won't be too late even if one is 60 years old - well, these "love
                    idealists " usually end up with what they consider tragedy, because
                    true love is usually too obscure in real life, yet blame themselves
                    if there have to be someone to be blamed of - no one asks them to
                    hold true love if there is such thing as their ideal, hehe...

                    Quite several HK female friends of mine actually have somewhat made
                    it clear that they are not going to marry this life.

                    So practically, this looking for love above everything else out of a
                    marriage is actually causing some females problems and there is a
                    trend towards taht among many modern Chinese women.

                    Interestingly, on a same day i saw the 12 men show, I saw these three
                    ladies who were voted by 10 guys on a prospect wife. One girl was a
                    career-minded and she had plans to do further study.. Another girl
                    was an active, modern looking girl who was independant, and she
                    stated she had a hobby of drinking. The other was a very traditional
                    thinking girl, she was dressing also quite modern and was actually a
                    pretty girl as well. And she was very willing to sacrifice herself
                    for the husband, and even when she was asked if she found out one day
                    her husband had a fair what she would do, she said she would see
                    first if her hubby was willing to come back to her, and if yes, she
                    would think the man was only being confused for the temporary time
                    being and she would forgive him. Now guess what votes these three
                    girls got from the 10 guys. The career-minded girl got 2 votes as a
                    prospect wife, and the independant girl got also 2 votes, the other
                    traditional girl got 6 votes and all 6 men highly praised the girl
                    for her spirit of self-sacrifice.

                    Also one guy commented about the rational thinking girl, the career
                    minded one, as well as the other girl who had the hobit of drinking
                    eetc. He said the reason he didn't like the rational thinking girl
                    was because it would be rather difficult for him to change the girl's
                    thinking as she seemed to be all set. Yet with the other girl whom he
                    thought was a bit less mature and had something he didn't agree with,
                    he said it's still possible for the girl to shape or being shaped.

                    jane


                    --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, "ming18ming2003"
                    <yijane01@m...> wrote:
                    >
                    > I agree, a lot of Chinese women don't marry for love. Traditionally
                    > and culturally many Chinese women marry for good for the rest of
                    her
                    > life, that means she looks for a marriage that she will be more or
                    > less finacially secured for the rest of her life> the marrige
                    > provides her a home by which she 'll be protected . with this
                    > traditional or cultural mentality, the Chinese women are mostly
                    very
                    > much dependant. They are dependant naturally, and vice versa, many
                    > Chinese men traditionally like taht they are dependant onto them.
                    (A
                    > scenario of two way streets as in many other things. ) I know this
                    > case from a friend. The girl just started dating and falling in
                    love
                    > with the guy. It was still at the stage when they met not too long
                    > ago. But the girl was falling for the guy somewhat hopelessly. She
                    > was thinking of her one night and she could not sleep until early
                    > morning. It wsa probably 2am, i remember that's what she said,
                    > hopelessly she just could not stop thinking of him, so finally she
                    > picked up all the courage and made a phone call to the guy. well,
                    the
                    > guy was sleeping sound, and apparently he was not pleased by this
                    > girl by reccieving this phone call at that wrong time. While the
                    girl
                    > was enthusiastically asking him questions about him what a person
                    he
                    > was, he hanged up the phone and that was , according to the girl,
                    the
                    > thing that resulted the end of their relationship. The guy thought
                    > the girl was too baby, hehe.. if you know what I mean, he thought
                    the
                    > girl was probably not mature enough or too dependant.
                    >
                    > I recently had a conversation with some friends about those many
                    > divorce cases between a Chinese woman and a non-Chinese man. One
                    > friend actually said it's partly because the Chinese women have
                    high
                    > expectations out of marriage. I agree. Another thing I believe got
                    to
                    > be the cultural difference.
                    >
                    > For example, I know this case. This Chinese girl was dating a
                    > westerner. The first date the westerner was attracted to the girl
                    and
                    > same went to the girl. The westerner was trying to hold her hand
                    but
                    > the girl could not do that comfortably. The westerner was also
                    > wanting to have intimate relationship with the girl a few days
                    after
                    > they first met. The westerner was probably sincere with the girl,
                    > according to her, but the thing was this was not right by the
                    girl's
                    > culture. She didn't feel it right to have the physical relationship
                    > with a guy say only a few days after they met, although she was in
                    > love with the man. In the Chinese girl's culture, she wanted to
                    test
                    > on her man if he was truly interested in her or only in her body by
                    > giving it a fair amount of time. Later I knew from this girl she
                    felt
                    > the western guy thought she was playing games on him. To him, it
                    > didn't make sense that they had to wait since it was clear that
                    they
                    > were both in love. See this is how the cultural difference can
                    > confuse people. I am not sure if the way I understand the
                    situatioin
                    > is true or not. Some of you may correct me.
                    >
                    > Another issue has to do with the parents. Teh Chinese women are
                    > usually great "order takers" from their mothers. Not meant for true
                    > for all the people, as is the case for everything, but probably you
                    > guys who are having a Chinese wife might need to watch out the
                    > Chinese mother-in-law a bit. hehe.. They can be tough, allbecause ,
                    > if I may say so, they love too much of the daughters and want to
                    > protect the daughters and to the point to annoy their son-in-laws
                    as
                    > youw would well know it could be viewed as interference or its
                    sort.
                    > ahehe... You know, A lot of times, These old mothers can be their
                    > daughters advisor. The same friend told me his friend ended up
                    > breaking up with his girlfriend coz he simply could not handle the
                    > too much pressure from the girl's parents.
                    >
                    > Maybe you guys can advise what's the important things for a couple
                    to
                    > work out fine from a relationship or a marriage. What are the
                    > difficulties? I mean I know there surely are lots of merits,
                    hehe...
                    >
                    > jane
                    >
                    >
                  • John Gerlach
                    Jane - Hi Believe me, western women have the same high expectations from their marriage, and we certainly have the same tradition of interference and trouble
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 7, 2005
                    • 0 Attachment
                      Jane - Hi
                       
                      Believe me, western women have the same high expectations from their marriage, and we certainly have the same tradition of interference and trouble with mother-in-law! Western culture has a strong tradition of mother-in-law jokes - ha ha!
                       
                      I have been so surprised to find so many Chinese women married to Chinese men are getting divorced - it actually seems more than Hong Kong Chinese women although I have no statistics to prove this - then they are looking for western men to re-marry (so many on AFF - Asia Friend Finder).
                       
                      Most western men who look for a Chinese wife admire the myth of the Chinese woman's natural subservience to her husband and believe she will cater to his every need and comfort. Western people also have the strong feeling that men who marry outside their culture and race can't get a wife from their own culture and race - and there may be some truth in this especially for older men, since western women tend to stay much closer to their own age when attracted to a man. Age seems less important as a factor when asian women choose a mate.
                       
                      So, one reason for many western men Chinese women divorcing may be that both have misconceptions and incompatible reasons for marrying the other. Western men are looking for 'easy' love and someone who will take care of them without giving them any hassle about their personal life, and Chinese women are often looking for some kind of security with a man they think must be refined and cultured compared to the stereotype of many Chinese men.
                       
                      The sad truth is that most of these people are disillusioned very quickly once they get married because many of them are initially connected through long-distance internet romances - a most dangerous and unreliable way to find a mate! On the other hand, western men who come to China to live and work have far greater success in finding a compatible Chinese mate without many of the illusions (and outright lies) of internet romance. In my observation, such marriages seem much more stable and happy.
                       
                      Finally, let me say that many men (both Chinese and western) are players. Chinese men are just more subtle and follow the norms of their culture to have an outwardly stable marriage while they go and play in secret. It seems to me that there are far more chances for Chinese men to have a secret woman on the side then there are for western men. Many western women will not tolerate being number two for very long, and using the sex industry in the west is far more risky of exposure than in China. So many western men looking for asian women are really not ready to give the commitment to a stable love marriage that they know western women will demand of them and thus they are not a good choice for a Chinese woman either.
                       
                      John
                      ----- Original Message -----
                      Sent: Wednesday, 6 April 2005 6:40 PM
                      Subject: [ChineseCultureOnline] Chinese yearn to marry foreigners: survey (Re: marry)


                      I agree, a lot of Chinese women don't marry for love. Traditionally
                      and culturally many Chinese women marry for good for the rest of her
                      life, that means she looks for a marriage that she will be more or
                      less finacially secured for the rest of her life> the marrige
                      provides her a home by which she 'll be protected . with this
                      traditional or cultural mentality, the Chinese women are mostly very
                      much dependant. They are dependant naturally, and vice versa, many
                      Chinese men traditionally like taht they are dependant onto them. (A
                      scenario of two way streets as in many other things. ) I know this
                      case from a friend. The girl just started dating and falling in love
                      with the guy. It was still at the stage when they met not too long
                      ago. But the girl was falling for the guy somewhat hopelessly. She
                      was thinking of her one night and she could not sleep until early
                      morning. It wsa probably 2am, i remember that's what she said,
                      hopelessly she just could not stop thinking of him, so finally she
                      picked up all the courage and made a phone call to the guy. well, the
                      guy was sleeping sound, and apparently he was not pleased by this
                      girl by reccieving this phone call at that wrong time. While the girl
                      was enthusiastically asking him questions about him what a person he
                      was, he hanged up the phone and that was , according to the girl, the
                      thing that resulted the end of their relationship. The guy thought
                      the girl was too baby, hehe.. if you know what I mean, he thought the
                      girl was probably not mature enough or too dependant.

                      I recently had a conversation with some friends about those many
                      divorce cases between a Chinese woman and a non-Chinese man. One
                      friend actually said it's partly because the Chinese women have high
                      expectations out of marriage. I agree. Another thing I believe got to
                      be the cultural difference.

                      For example, I know this case. This Chinese girl was dating a
                      westerner. The first date the westerner was attracted to the girl and
                      same went to the girl. The westerner was trying to hold her hand but
                      the girl could not do that comfortably. The westerner was also
                      wanting to have intimate relationship with the girl a few days after
                      they first met. The westerner was probably sincere with the girl,
                      according to her, but the thing was this was not right by the girl's
                      culture. She didn't feel it right to have the physical relationship
                      with a guy say only a few days after they met, although she was in
                      love with the man. In the Chinese girl's culture, she wanted to test
                      on her man if he was truly interested in her or only in her body by
                      giving it a fair amount of time. Later I knew from this girl she felt
                      the western guy thought she was playing games on him. To him, it
                      didn't make sense that they had to wait since it was clear that they
                      were both in love. See this is how the cultural difference can
                      confuse people. I am not sure if the way I understand the situatioin
                      is true or not. Some of you may correct me.

                      Another issue has to do with the parents. Teh Chinese women are
                      usually great "order takers" from their mothers. Not meant for true
                      for all the people, as is the case for everything, but probably you
                      guys who are having a Chinese wife might need to watch out the
                      Chinese mother-in-law a bit. hehe.. They can be tough, allbecause ,
                      if I may say so, they love too much of the daughters and want to
                      protect the daughters and to the point to annoy their son-in-laws as
                      youw would well know it could be viewed as interference or its sort.
                      ahehe... You know, A lot of times, These old mothers can be their
                      daughters advisor. The same friend told me his friend ended up
                      breaking up with his girlfriend coz he simply could not handle the
                      too much pressure from the girl's parents.

                      Maybe you guys can advise what's the important things for a couple to
                      work out fine from a relationship or a marriage. What are the
                      difficulties? I mean I know there surely are lots of merits, hehe...

                      jane



                      --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, "liang_jieming"
                      <kitmengleong@y...> wrote:
                      >
                      > Hi Dr. Zheng,
                      >
                      >   We are seeing the same phenomenon here in Singapore.  The article
                      is
                      > correct in that the earlier marriages in the 80s and 90s were
                      > marriages of convenience and they more often than not resulted in
                      > divorce right after the citizenship in the foreign country is
                      obtained.
                      >
                      > These days this is increasingly less and less so though the number
                      of
                      > China chinese coming over to work illegally as well as legally is on
                      > the rise and many of them make it fairly obvious that they want to
                      stay.
                      >
                      > Many issues remain even in a marriage with an overseas chinese.  The
                      > difference in attitudes, practices and norms presents large problems
                      > to such couples let alone marriage with someone of a different
                      ethnic
                      > group.  Much sacriface must be made in both parties in order for the
                      > marriage to come to a basic understanding and to work.  Westerners
                      are
                      > more incline to marry for love alone, but this is not usual for
                      > chinese.  Chinese women usually rate love not much further above
                      other
                      > considerations if at all.  Security, lifestyle, prestige/face,
                      money,
                      > etc. are all considerations in marriage.  Many women I know often
                      > chorus that "love is not enough" and they would be foolish to marry
                      > just for love.
                      >
                      > Jieming
                      > DragonSeedLegacy
                      > ChineseCultureOnline
                      >
                      > --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, JJ Dr <sribayu88@y...>
                      wrote:
                      > > Dear Liang,
                      > > 
                      > > Article is very interesting. I am a foreigner but of Chinese
                      origin
                      > and fourth generation overseas Chinese so I am considered a
                      foreigner.
                      > My lifestyle is to all intensive purposes a mixture of a Pan Asiana
                      > lifestyle which has incorporated certain Western traits. If I marry
                      a
                      > Chinese girl from the mainland I would also be concerned about the
                      > cultural differences in terms of expression since I speak English
                      and
                      > the ancient dialects of Min nan Hua and Cantonese. I am glad that
                      now
                      > marriages are based on love otherwise it must be unbearable if it is
                      > out of convenience. I do agree that divorce rates are high because
                      > expectations may be different especially if it is of a different
                      > ethnic origin. I wonder if there is a study done about marriages
                      > between mainlanders and overseas Chinese.
                      > > 
                      > > Regards
                      > > 
                      > > Dr Zheng
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > ---------------------------------
                      > >   Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
                      > today! Download Messenger Now



                    • Danny Freeman
                      Hi John n Jane, I have been watching this thread with some interest lately:). I haven t had time to reply, but I also wasn t sure how to reply and am not sure
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 7, 2005
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Hi John n Jane,
                        I have been watching this thread with some interest lately:).  I haven't had time to reply, but I also wasn't sure how to reply and am not sure this reply is sufficient for the topic either.  I will try to shed a little light from my recent experience on the subject.  Some of what I say is hard to say without sounding a bit adversarial, I think, but bear with me.  I am not trying to be that way.
                         
                        First of all, I can see that much of what is said here is probably based on conjecture born of an interest in the subject, but not really based on facts.  There are statistics available on different kinds of marriages and sometimes they are hard to use to get a good picture of how things actually are.  If you look in China daily and other sources you will find ways to get to the statistics and articles concerning these topics.  They appear regularly there and in other places.  For instance, the divorce rate John spoke of is primarily in the separate economic zones and has always been high.  The current mainland divorce rate increase is an anomoly that will fall soon because many Chinese women are currently divorcing because of the recent change in divorce laws.  Many older mainland women are getting divorced now who would have divorced long ago under the new laws.  When this has run its course the divorce rate will stabilize again.
                         
                        Also, that divorce rate only recently broke 10%.  Still very low compared to western divorce rates (the u.s. is consitantly over 50%).  In the economic zones transnational marriages are increasing every year, but the divorce rates are staying about the same.  60% for Shanghai, 50% for Hong Kong, And around 40% for Macau as I recall.  These rates are for western men who marry women who are from the zones, though.  The rates for Western men who marry Chinese women from the mainland run about the same as the mainland divorce rates.  Generally under 10%.  Far better than comparible western marriages.
                         
                        It is also true that men who stay in China to work and live have a far lower divorce rate with Chinese women.  Age and previous marital status are a factor as well.  Chinese women over 30 who have never been married and marry western men over 40 who stay in China tend to do the best of all demographics.  There is much more, but i'll stop here.  I usually don't get technical on this subject, but I am a buisnessman who has stayed in China with his Chinese wife and have access to a lot of demographic information.  Needless to say, I got curious to see how my own marriage would fare and took a look at the statistics:).
                         
                        As far as the comments about love, security, and expectations are concerned I am not so sure they are as relevant as one might at first think in this context.  These things play out in all cultures one way or another and are common problems both within and between cultures.  Love is not a guarantee of a happy marriage.  Security cannot guarantee a happy marriage.  Bad expectations doom relationships every day both in and between cultures.  The world is full of players... etc..  The truth is that a man who is looking for a slave or a woman looking for a fairy tale prince (what is what most really want to say but are afraid to) are both doomed to failure.  It always has and always will take work, patience, and maturity to keep love and security in a lasting marriage.
                         
                        I, for one, did not marry a Chinese woman or go looking for a Chinese woman.  I am simply a hard working man who married a woman he fell in love with.  She just happened to be Chinese.  I think we have some advantages in our cultural differences that we do take advantage of.  There are also a few disadvantages we work through and minimize in our marriage.  Overall, however, I think that each marriage has to be taken on its' own merits.  The trend towards transnational marriage will probably increase for many reasons.  Some good and some bad.  The divorce rates and who succeeds or fails will be reflected in those reasons.  There are many reasons to be skeptical or hopeful regarding this kind of relationship, but it is still marriage and will continue to develop as marriage and relationships always have regarding love, maturity, and understanding regardless and in spite of culture or misconception.
                         
                        I know it is not what many want to hear, but common sense, maturity, and realistic expectations will always be the best route in a successful marriage and always has been.  There is no magic bullet.  Cultural or otherwise.  In the end, real love and a willingness to apply these things are what work.  The rest is just fluff around the heart of the matter that will be dealt with if you have and care for these basics.

                        John Gerlach <firedog_hk@...> wrote:
                        Jane - Hi
                         
                        Believe me, western women have the same high expectations from their marriage, and we certainly have the same tradition of interference and trouble with mother-in-law! Western culture has a strong tradition of mother-in-law jokes - ha ha!
                         
                        I have been so surprised to find so many Chinese women married to Chinese men are getting divorced - it actually seems more than Hong Kong Chinese women although I have no statistics to prove this - then they are looking for western men to re-marry (so many on AFF - Asia Friend Finder).
                         
                        Most western men who look for a Chinese wife admire the myth of the Chinese woman's natural subservience to her husband and believe she will cater to his every need and comfort. Western people also have the strong feeling that men who marry outside their culture and race can't get a wife from their own culture and race - and there may be some truth in this especially for older men, since western women tend to stay much closer to their own age when attracted to a man. Age seems less important as a factor when asian women choose a mate.
                         
                        So, one reason for many western men Chinese women divorcing may be that both have misconceptions and incompatible reasons for marrying the other. Western men are looking for 'easy' love and someone who will take care of them without giving them any hassle about their personal life, and Chinese women are often looking for some kind of security with a man they think must be refined and cultured compared to the stereotype of many Chinese men.
                         
                        The sad truth is that most of these people are disillusioned very quickly once they get married because many of them are initially connected through long-distance internet romances - a most dangerous and unreliable way to find a mate! On the other hand, western men who come to China to live and work have far greater success in finding a compatible Chinese mate without many of the illusions (and outright lies) of internet romance. In my observation, such marriages seem much more stable and happy.
                         
                        Finally, let me say that many men (both Chinese and western) are players. Chinese men are just more subtle and follow the norms of their culture to have an outwardly stable marriage while they go and play in secret. It seems to me that there are far more chances for Chinese men to have a secret woman on the side then there are for western men. Many western women will not tolerate being number two for very long, and using the sex industry in the west is far more risky of exposure than in China. So many western men looking for asian women are really not ready to give the commitment to a stable love marriage that they know western women will demand of them and thus they are not a good choice for a Chinese woman either.
                         
                        John
                        ----- Original Message -----
                        Sent: Wednesday, 6 April 2005 6:40 PM
                        Subject: [ChineseCultureOnline] Chinese yearn to marry foreigners: survey (Re: marry)


                        I agree, a lot of Chinese women don't marry for love. Traditionally
                        and culturally many Chinese women marry for good for the rest of her
                        life, that means she looks for a marriage that she will be more or
                        less finacially secured for the rest of her life> the marrige
                        provides her a home by which she 'll be protected . with this
                        traditional or cultural mentality, the Chinese women are mostly very
                        much dependant. They are dependant naturally, and vice versa, many
                        Chinese men traditionally like taht they are dependant onto them. (A
                        scenario of two way streets as in many other things. ) I know this
                        case from a friend. The girl just started dating and falling in love
                        with the guy. It was still at the stage when they met not too long
                        ago. But the girl was falling for the guy somewhat hopelessly. She
                        was thinking of her one night and she could not sleep until early
                        morning. It wsa probably 2am, i remember that's what she said,
                        hopelessly she just could not stop thinking of him, so finally she
                        picked up all the courage and made a phone call to the guy. well, the
                        guy was sleeping sound, and apparently he was not pleased by this
                        girl by reccieving this phone call at that wrong time. While the girl
                        was enthusiastically asking him questions about him what a person he
                        was, he hanged up the phone and that was , according to the girl, the
                        thing that resulted the end of their relationship. The guy thought
                        the girl was too baby, hehe.. if you know what I mean, he thought the
                        girl was probably not mature enough or too dependant.

                        I recently had a conversation with some friends about those many
                        divorce cases between a Chinese woman and a non-Chinese man. One
                        friend actually said it's partly because the Chinese women have high
                        expectations out of marriage. I agree. Another thing I believe got to
                        be the cultural difference.

                        For example, I know this case. This Chinese girl was dating a
                        westerner. The first date the westerner was attracted to the girl and
                        same went to the girl. The westerner was trying to hold her hand but
                        the girl could not do that comfortably. The westerner was also
                        wanting to have intimate relationship with the girl a few days after
                        they first met. The westerner was probably sincere with the girl,
                        according to her, but the thing was this was not right by the girl's
                        culture. She didn't feel it right to have the physical relationship
                        with a guy say only a few days after they met, although she was in
                        love with the man. In the Chinese girl's culture, she wanted to test
                        on her man if he was truly interested in her or only in her body by
                        giving it a fair amount of time. Later I knew from this girl she felt
                        the western guy thought she was playing games on him. To him, it
                        didn't make sense that they had to wait since it was clear that they
                        were both in love. See this is how the cultural difference can
                        confuse people. I am not sure if the way I understand the situatioin
                        is true or not. Some of you may correct me.

                        Another issue has to do with the parents. Teh Chinese women are
                        usually great "order takers" from their mothers. Not meant for true
                        for all the people, as is the case for everything, but probably you
                        guys who are having a Chinese wife might need to watch out the
                        Chinese mother-in-law a bit. hehe.. They can be tough, allbecause ,
                        if I may say so, they love too much of the daughters and want to
                        protect the daughters and to the point to annoy their son-in-laws as
                        youw would well know it could be viewed as interference or its sort.
                        ahehe... You know, A lot of times, These old mothers can be their
                        daughters advisor. The same friend told me his friend ended up
                        breaking up with his girlfriend coz he simply could not handle the
                        too much pressure from the girl's parents.

                        Maybe you guys can advise what's the important things for a couple to
                        work out fine from a relationship or a marriage. What are the
                        difficulties? I mean I know there surely are lots of merits, hehe...

                        jane



                        --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, "liang_jieming"
                        <kitmengleong@y...> wrote:
                        >
                        > Hi Dr. Zheng,
                        >
                        >   We are seeing the same phenomenon here in Singapore.  The article
                        is
                        > correct in that the earlier marriages in the 80s and 90s were
                        > marriages of convenience and they more often than not resulted in
                        > divorce right after the citizenship in the foreign country is
                        obtained.
                        >
                        > These days this is increasingly less and less so though the number
                        of
                        > China chinese coming over to work illegally as well as legally is on
                        > the rise and many of them make it fairly obvious that they want to
                        stay.
                        >
                        > Many issues remain even in a marriage with an overseas chinese.  The
                        > difference in attitudes, practices and norms presents large problems
                        > to such couples let alone marriage with someone of a different
                        ethnic
                        > group.  Much sacriface must be made in both parties in order for the
                        > marriage to come to a basic understanding and to work.  Westerners
                        are
                        > more incline to marry for love alone, but this is not usual for
                        > chinese.  Chinese women usually rate love not much further above
                        other
                        > considerations if at all.  Security, lifestyle, prestige/face,
                        money,
                        > etc. are all considerations in marriage.  Many women I know often
                        > chorus that "love is not enough" and they would be foolish to marry
                        > just for love.
                        >
                        > Jieming
                        > DragonSeedLegacy
                        > ChineseCultureOnline
                        >
                        > --- In ChineseCultureOnline@yahoogroups.com, JJ Dr <sribayu88@y...>
                        wrote:
                        > > Dear Liang,
                        > > 
                        > > Article is very interesting. I am a foreigner but of Chinese
                        origin
                        > and fourth generation overseas Chinese so I am considered a
                        foreigner.
                        > My lifestyle is to all intensive purposes a mixture of a Pan Asiana
                        > lifestyle which has incorporated certain Western traits. If I marry
                        a
                        > Chinese girl from the mainland I would also be concerned about the
                        > cultural differences in terms of expression since I speak English
                        and
                        > the ancient dialects of Min nan Hua and Cantonese. I am glad that
                        now
                        > marriages are based on love otherwise it must be unbearable if it is
                        > out of convenience. I do agree that divorce rates are high because
                        > expectations may be different especially if it is of a different
                        > ethnic origin. I wonder if there is a study done about marriages
                        > between mainlanders and overseas Chinese.
                        > > 
                        > > Regards
                        > > 
                        > > Dr Zheng
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ---------------------------------
                        > >   Yahoo! Messenger - Communicate instantly..."Ping" your friends
                        > today! Download Messenger Now




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