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Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] Re: Cachers helping cachers on puzzle caches.

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  • Mrs. Captain Picard
    Here are my thoughts on this subject. The one thing I know to be true is that geocaches take on a life of their own. You can t control them. You can t
    Message 1 of 9 , Oct 3, 2010
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      Here are my thoughts on this subject.

      The one thing I know to be true is that geocaches take on a life of their own.  You can't control them.  You can't dictate when or if people will look for them.  You can't FORCE them to read the cache pages, and often they don't for whatever reason, and there are lots of reasons.  You can't force them to park at your parking coordinates, and you can't force them to be stealthy or sign with a happy face, or write wonderful things about your cache in their log.  You just can't, and you could drive yourself insane trying!

      I have a series called Cycle Central Texas, and I don't think that more than 1% of the finders have ever ridden their bicycles to them, but putting out the series made ME happy, and I offer cachers the OPPORTUNITY to have a nice bike ride to a cache. If they don't take me up on it, that's their choice, and I'm ok with it.

      The next thing I know to be true is that not everyone who logs your puzzle will have solved it.  If my beloved husband and geocacher Footnotes Coach solved a puzzle, is it wrong for him to have solved it for "us" and we go together to find it? I would say no.  Now, if we weren't married, would  it be ok if he solved it for us as a "couple" and we went and found it together?  What if we're regular caching partners and went and found it together?  What if we didn't know each other, but met at an event and went caching and found it together?  Where exactly is the point where it's no longer "fair" that only one of us solved the puzzle?  

      I frown when I hear the words "fair" and "cheat" used in discussing the "rules" of geocaching because there pretty much are no rules.  There is no prize, not a single thing to be gained by having more finds than anyone else.  The website clearly does nothing to prevent a member from logging as many finds as one wants from their living room.  They don't dictate how many sets of eyes can be in your group and still log a cache as a "find" even though only one person spotted it first.  And you don't have to prove you solved the puzzle before you can log.  Why is that?

      I believe Groundspeak purposely leaves their system "open" because they want geocaching to be whatever each member wants it to be.  There are a zillion different experiences you can have geocaching, and if someone enjoys "finding" caches from their living room, well, it takes nothing away from how I myself enjoy my sport.

      My advice to you, Hilton, is to create your puzzles for the pure joy of creating, of contributing to the caching community, and then step back and celebrate with those who love the challenge of the puzzles and wish all the rest your best with a smile on your face.

      Cache On!

      Julie
      Mrs. Captain Picard




      On Sun, Oct 3, 2010 at 10:07 AM, poofy1369 <Hilton@...> wrote:
       

      Sorry group - forgot to sign - the last tirade was brought to you by TheFoods



      --- In CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com, wrote:
      >
      > Yes, you may call this whining but we are very frustrated.
      >
      > We enjoy spending time making puzzle caches and placing them. We don't enjoy when the answers are given out to people at will. We know this is happening because we have cachers logging a find without even visiting the cache site. Some of our caches take you to another page and on both pages we know how many times and who visit the page.
      >
      > It's frustrating to get logs from people who do not read the cache, do not follow the steps and then log or do not log what we have requested in the puzzle.
      >
      > At this point - we are ready to archive the puzzle caches we have out and stop making them.
      >
      > We know everyone plays the game differently but if a cache owner takes the time to make special steps, we feel they should be at least attempted. Also, if you need help with a cache - go to the cache owner first!
      >
      > Please voice your opinion and let us know your thoughts.
      >


    • Carlin
      Since you have asked the community.... here are my two cents. I have solved some puzzles without help, I have solved some puzzles with help, I have found
      Message 2 of 9 , Oct 3, 2010
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        Since you have asked the community.... here are my two cents. 
         
        I have solved some puzzles without help, I have solved some puzzles with help, I have "found" some puzzle caches that I never solved because I cached with someone who did solve them.  I don't feel that the last two scenarios were "cheating", but you may think differently.   As for solving a puzzle and logging a find without visiting the cache, well, that puts a new twist on it and, as the cache owner, you may choose to delete those found logs.
         
        Page visits, if a pocket query is run, then opened and viewed a zillion times in GSAK, would you have any input as to how many times your cache page was visited?  I usually print puzzle cache pages and work from the print out, so I may not visit the actual web page until I log the cache find.
         
        Please don't get frustrated.  Some cachers do it your way, some do it their way, it is still all good.  I put a couple of caches out so that folks can enjoy what I think is a beautiful path, if they find a less scenic, short cut path to the cache, oh well.
         
        Think about the sense of self gratification a cacher gets from solving your puzzlesSmile emoticon !  That seems like reason enough to keep them active and put out more!
         
        Carlin/1Carlin

        From: poofy1369
        Sent: Sunday, October 03, 2010 10:03 AM
        Subject: [CentralTexasGeocachers] Cachers helping cachers on puzzle caches.

         

        Yes, you may call this whining but we are very frustrated.

        We enjoy spending time making puzzle caches and placing them. We don't enjoy when the answers are given out to people at will. We know this is happening because we have cachers logging a find without even visiting the cache site. Some of our caches take you to another page and on both pages we know how many times and who visit the page.

        It's frustrating to get logs from people who do not read the cache, do not follow the steps and then log or do not log what we have requested in the puzzle.

        At this point - we are ready to archive the puzzle caches we have out and stop making them.

        We know everyone plays the game differently but if a cache owner takes the time to make special steps, we feel they should be at least attempted. Also, if you need help with a cache - go to the cache owner first!

        Please voice your opinion and let us know your thoughts.

      • gumbietygress@juno.com
        -- Original Message ---------- From: poofy1369 To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com Subject: [CentralTexasGeocachers] Cachers
        Message 3 of 9 , Oct 3, 2010
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          -- Original Message ----------
          From: "poofy1369" <Hilton@...>
          To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [CentralTexasGeocachers] Cachers helping cachers on puzzle caches.
          Date: Sun, 03 Oct 2010 15:03:04 -0000

          Yes, you may call this whining but we are very frustrated.

          We enjoy spending time making puzzle caches and placing them.  We don't enjoy when the answers are given out to people at will.  We know this is happening because we have cachers logging a find without even visiting the cache site.    Some of our caches take you to another page and on both pages we know how many times and who visit the page.

          It's frustrating to get logs from people who do not read the cache, do not follow the steps and then log or do not log what we have requested in the puzzle.

          At this point - we are ready to archive the puzzle caches we have out and stop making them.  

          We know everyone plays the game differently but if a cache owner takes the time to make special steps, we feel they should be at least attempted.  Also, if you need help with a cache - go to the cache owner first!

          Please voice your opinion and let us know your thoughts.



          ------------------------------------

          Everyone's going to play the game their way regardless -- and not everyone is into the whole puzzle thing, but WOULD like to get that smile. Though it's frustrating for you, is it really any more skin off your nose than a cryptic "TFTC" log?

          That said, if you have requirements for the puzzle that aren't being met -- or if people are logging without physically visiting, YOU  have cache owner recourse.

          As Earthcache placers, Waterweasel & I occasionally get folks who log the cache without doing the requirements.
          Here is what we do:
          Step 1: A gentle email reminding them that an Earthcache is a special sort of cache, and it's not enough that you simply visit the site. [After all, we have in capital letters: IN ORDER TO LOG THIS CACHE....]
          Step 2: If there is no response -- we give them time -- we delete the log, with a regretful email saying: "We're sorry, and did contact you, but you did not fulfill the requirements of this cache. Should you care to resubmit, you are welcome to do so, but you do need to follow the cache logging instructions. Regretfully.... <signed>"

          Certainly if you are sure someone has logged a cache without visiting it -- delete the log. It's your cache, after all, and that's why you have that power.
          If you have puzzle steps that you know aren't being met -- call them on it, gently, reminding them that you spent a fair deal of time creating this experience, so it only seems fair to be met most of the way.

          On the other hand, since we're still getting logs worried about our first Sunburned Zebra's location being rather, um, crumpled, AND IT TELLS YOU THAT THE SITE IS BEAT UP ON THE CACHE PAGE (Someone ran into GZ the week after we placed the cache); I'm convinced that a lot of people don't read cache pages.
          But me? I'll continue writing them for the people who do, and let the rest be noise. Just like the TFTC only logs. They haven't harmed the cache, and if they don't feel the inclination to make the effort we'd wish for, ah well.  Encourage those who do.

          You must, of course, ultimately decide what is worth it for you.
          But I would ask that you don't take down your puzzles because some cachers shortcut them -- after all, the people who love puzzle solving get the enjoyment you intentioned. Do it for THEM and just let the rest... be the rest. YOU know they're slackers =WINK!!!!=  but some will be slackers always.

          That's my mileage.

          As for who to go to for help, not every cache owner is helpful or responsive. People go first to who they know. Others hate to admit ignorance. =shrug= That's just human nature -- try to be forgiving.


          BarbJ/Tygress





          ____________________________________________________________
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        • teamtroglodyte
          A wonderful outlook, wonderfully presented! Gary/Team Troglodyte
          Message 4 of 9 , Oct 4, 2010
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            A wonderful outlook, wonderfully presented!

            Gary/Team Troglodyte

            --- In CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com, "Mrs. Captain Picard" <mrscaptainpicard@...> wrote:
            >
            > Here are my thoughts on this subject.
            >
            > The one thing I know to be true is that geocaches take on a life of their
            > own. You can't control them. You can't dictate when or if people will look
            > for them. You can't FORCE them to read the cache pages, and often they
            > don't for whatever reason, and there are lots of reasons. You can't force
            > them to park at your parking coordinates, and you can't force them to be
            > stealthy or sign with a happy face, or write wonderful things about your
            > cache in their log. You just can't, and you could drive yourself insane
            > trying!
            >
            > I have a series called Cycle Central Texas, and I don't think that more than
            > 1% of the finders have ever ridden their bicycles to them, but putting out
            > the series made ME happy, and I offer cachers the OPPORTUNITY to have a nice
            > bike ride to a cache. If they don't take me up on it, that's their choice,
            > and I'm ok with it.
            >
            > The next thing I know to be true is that not everyone who logs your puzzle
            > will have solved it. If my beloved husband and geocacher Footnotes Coach
            > solved a puzzle, is it wrong for him to have solved it for "us" and we go
            > together to find it? I would say no. Now, if we weren't married, would it
            > be ok if he solved it for us as a "couple" and we went and found it
            > together? What if we're regular caching partners and went and found it
            > together? What if we didn't know each other, but met at an event and went
            > caching and found it together? Where exactly is the point where it's no
            > longer "fair" that only one of us solved the puzzle?
            >
            > I frown when I hear the words "fair" and "cheat" used in discussing the
            > "rules" of geocaching because there pretty much are no rules. There is no
            > prize, not a single thing to be gained by having more finds than anyone
            > else. The website clearly does nothing to prevent a member from logging as
            > many finds as one wants from their living room. They don't dictate how many
            > sets of eyes can be in your group and still log a cache as a "find" even
            > though only one person spotted it first. And you don't have to prove you
            > solved the puzzle before you can log. Why is that?
            >
            > I believe Groundspeak purposely leaves their system "open" because they want
            > geocaching to be whatever each member wants it to be. There are a zillion
            > different experiences you can have geocaching, and if someone enjoys
            > "finding" caches from their living room, well, it takes nothing away from
            > how I myself enjoy my sport.
            >
            > My advice to you, Hilton, is to create your puzzles for the pure joy of
            > creating, of contributing to the caching community, and then step back and
            > celebrate with those who love the challenge of the puzzles and wish all the
            > rest your best with a smile on your face.
            >
            > Cache On!
            >
            > Julie
            > Mrs. Captain Picard
            >
          • Indigo Parrish
            ... Since you asked, here are my thoughts -- Puzzle caches are not everyone s cup of tea. Some people assiduously avoid them. Also, no matter how much effort
            Message 5 of 9 , Oct 4, 2010
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              --- In CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com, "poofy1369" <Hilton@...> wrote:
              >
              > Yes, you may call this whining but we are very frustrated.
              >
              > We enjoy spending time making puzzle caches and placing them. We don't enjoy when the answers are given out to people at will. We know this is happening because we have cachers logging a find without even visiting the cache site. Some of our caches take you to another page and on both pages we know how many times and who visit the page.
              >
              > It's frustrating to get logs from people who do not read the cache, do not follow the steps and then log or do not log what we have requested in the puzzle.
              >
              > At this point - we are ready to archive the puzzle caches we have out and stop making them.
              >
              > We know everyone plays the game differently but if a cache owner takes the time to make special steps, we feel they should be at least attempted. Also, if you need help with a cache - go to the cache owner first!
              >
              > Please voice your opinion and let us know your thoughts.

              Since you asked, here are my thoughts --

              Puzzle caches are not everyone's cup of tea. Some people assiduously avoid them. Also, no matter how much effort one puts into creating them they simply won't attract finders like a traditional cache. I hide caches because I WANT people to find them. I have a cool location for them to see or a fun or silly or interesting puzzle for them to solve. Sure, anyone can come up with an impenetrable puzzle that basically requires the finder to read the hider's mind (*cough* National Treasure *cough*) but where's the fun in that? What's the point?

              Therefore I prefer to hide puzzle caches that are either explicitly stated to be solve-on-site or where everything is completely presented on the page or I make it clear they can ask me for hints. I want them to know that the puzzle is doable and worth the effort and encourage them to DO IT rather than take the easy way out either by skipping it or phoning a friend for the final location. I think that's a healthier, more encouraging attitude to take: "I will HELP you appreciate my puzzle" rather than "how DARE anyone cheat past my masterpiece."

              I also agree with Mrs. Captain Picard's points about teams of people working together to solve puzzles. I've been on the phone for hours with my buddy Vinyl Slider trying to wrap our heads around a new puzzle when it got published. When one of us finally solved it, it's difficult NOT to share the result with each other after all that shared effort. But both of us view the point of any puzzle cache to be *solving the puzzle*, so one really should be either solving it themself or at least breaking a mental sweat helping to solve it. Therefore, I'd try not to fret about people helping each other to solve a puzzle. At least they are showing interest. To paraphrase Oscar Wilde, the only thing worse than a puzzle cache being talked about is a puzzle cache not being talked about.

              I draw the line at Challenge caches however. In my mind it is flat out unethical to log a Challenge cache without personally doing the challenge as intended. Life is too short to discard one's ethics for a single smiley on a challenge cache. I will not allow bogus logs on "Nine Princes in Amber" and it is reasonable to expect other Challenge hiders to maintain similar vigilance. If you don't like that, then challenge caches are simply not the type for you. GC.com gives the "Delete Log" option for a reason, and bogus challenge cache logs are one of the very few cases I think where it is warranted. Even then I'd give the logger a fair, friendly warning and plenty of notice for them to change it to a "Note" instead.

              So make the puzzle caches doable and enjoyable and then just let the community appreciate them for what they are. Some will cheat, most won't, live and let live. And save your strength to righteously defend challenge caches :)

              -Keith (Indigo Parrish)
            • electric_water_boy
              I ll start with where I ll end. Play your own game. Do it for yourself. And when it isn t fun anymore, don t do it. If you worry about how everyone else
              Message 6 of 9 , Oct 5, 2010
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                I'll start with where I'll end. Play your own game. Do it for yourself. And when it isn't fun anymore, don't do it. If you worry about how everyone else does it you'll quit a lot sooner.

                I share the frustration from time to time, but I get over it.

                Am I frustrated that people who haven't solved my puzzles find them? No. As others have stated, sometimes the non-solvers are with a group. Some of these people could have solved the puzzle had they worked on it. Some would have even tried. Some are just new. But regardless, it's not their finding that bothers me.

                What ticks me off, and I'm assuming what is getting you as well, as when some people find your puzzle cache without solving the puzzle, they do possibly two things.

                1. They don't even look at the puzzle when they go to log the thing. If you log my puzzle without solving, at least take a minute or two to look at the thing. Tell me that you think you could have solved it, or that it was way over your head, or it looked interesting, or something. And some puzzles ask for you to log them a certain way. Even if you didn't solve the puzzle you could at least log it as asked.

                2. Your log makes it sound like you found the solution to global warming, created world peace, and you did it all on your coffee break. Some puzzle caches have tough hides, and I think it is okay to say something about that - "I didn't solve your puzzle (though I have since looked at it and it's over my head), but I did find your cache it was a tough one to find." But I would venture to say that the majority of puzzle caches have "normal" hides and the majority of us could find them with little difficulty. The finding of the cache is just meant to be verification that you solved the puzzle correctly. So, if you didn't solve the puzzle and didn't even look at it or read how to log it if there was a special way, don't make a big deal out of having found it - especially if you were with a group and you weren't the one to find it.

                So yeah, it does get to me a bit. But if I were to let those few people who don't "play like I think they should" get to me, I'd be doing something else. I create puzzles for me, for those who I know love to solve them, and for those who might eventually getthe puzzle solving bug. I can't waste my time and effort for the rest of you.

                So, to end where I started. Play your own game. Do it for yourself. And when it isn't fun anymore, don't do it. If you worry about how everyone else does it you'll quit a lot sooner.

                Electric Water Boy
                Tom

                --- In CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com, "poofy1369" <Hilton@...> wrote:
                >
                > Yes, you may call this whining but we are very frustrated.
                >
                > We enjoy spending time making puzzle caches and placing them. We don't enjoy when the answers are given out to people at will. We know this is happening because we have cachers logging a find without even visiting the cache site. Some of our caches take you to another page and on both pages we know how many times and who visit the page.
                >
                > It's frustrating to get logs from people who do not read the cache, do not follow the steps and then log or do not log what we have requested in the puzzle.
                >
                > At this point - we are ready to archive the puzzle caches we have out and stop making them.
                >
                > We know everyone plays the game differently but if a cache owner takes the time to make special steps, we feel they should be at least attempted. Also, if you need help with a cache - go to the cache owner first!
                >
                > Please voice your opinion and let us know your thoughts.
                >
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