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Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?

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  • David Gahagan
    Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will look at this groups log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have archives from September
    Message 1 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
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      Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will look at this groups
      log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have archives from
      September where Dan posted problems as well.

      The problems encountered are across the spectrum, from caches that are too
      close together to "by looking at a map, that doesn't look like a good cache
      spot.

      If they want to better manage the cache placement process, then get reliable
      people in each area to volunteer to verify cache placement and location
      before final approval.

      The biggest problem I see with their rules is that a) they can't actually
      verify the cache location, b) the wording used in creating the cache
      placement page is critical to getting approval, and c) anyone can get a
      cache posted with a little effort (changing location, description, etc...
      after approval)


      ----- Original Message -----
      From: "Ken Mikolaj" <stars_fan_2001@...>
      To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
      Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:41 AM
      Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen if they decide
      to pick up their toys and go home?


      > I don't know the details or background of what is
      > being spoken about here.....but I can tell you that I
      > don't like having 4 caches in one park. I like 1
      > (maybe 2 if the park is large enough) per park/area.
      > So, if the only rule that is being enforced is one
      > that limits how close caches can be, then what's the
      > problem? Are people hooked on trying to make it a
      > competition on how many caches they find (therefore,
      > many caches close together is benificial in some
      > strange way...makes those 'find' numbers grow
      > quicker)?
      >
      > I placed my 2 caches about 10 months ago and had no
      > problems.
      >
      > What kind of rules are Jeremy and his minions
      > inforcing?
      >
      > Posting just a "Texas" geocaching site is not the
      > answer. The good part about a central location for
      > all caches is that when you travel, you can find
      > caches in the area traveled to with ease. If every
      > state/city/county had their own site, it would be a
      > nightmare.
      >
      > The solution is to let the people that are lessening
      > your enjoyment of the game know this. Let them know
      > what they are doing wrong. When enough people tell
      > them, they will change. Otherwise, fewer people will
      > play the game on the geocaching site, it (the site)
      > will die, and a new one will start somewhere else.
      >
      > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
      > geocaching ranks?
      >
      > --- David Gahagan <david@...> wrote:
      > > Mark, et al.... I too am growing tired of Jeremy and
      > > his little minions
      > > telling me how to play my game. Jeremy did a good
      > > job and was fair in cache
      > > placements, these little pinheads he has helping him
      > > don't have a clue what
      > > they are doing. If I want to post a cache on the
      > > roof of my house (granted
      > > it meets the non-commercial rules, etc...) then I
      > > should be able to do it.
      > > Who cares if there is another cache 25ft, 50ft,
      > > 200ft or even 2000ft away.
      >
      > __________________________________________________
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      > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
      > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
      >
      >
      >
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      >
      >
    • Eoghan <eoghan@sharawadgi.com>
      ... The issue has been hot since the very beginning (about two and a half years ago). The first person to suggest the idea of a GPS Stash and the first to hide
      Message 2 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
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        > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
        > geocaching ranks?

        The issue has been hot since the very beginning (about two and a half
        years ago). The first person to suggest the idea of a GPS Stash and
        the first to hide one (Dave Ulmer) quit geocaching early on, in large
        part because of the debate over a centralized vs. decentralized
        approach to cache listings.

        (He also had strong reservations about the environmental effects of
        the sport and was vocal about his disagreements with geocaching.com.
        For a while the geocaching.com site gave a brief history of the sport
        saying that a 'gentleman' in Washington placed the first cache, but
        now apparently to avoid the question of WHICH gentleman, the brief
        history paragraph has been completely removed from the site. I'm not
        sure why else the history of the sport would be deemed unworthy of a
        place on the FAQ.)

        The debate has also been a central sticking point between the
        groundspeak team and Ed Hall, the creator of the BEST geocaching maps
        (at Buxley's Geocaching Waypoint, http://www.brillig.com/geocaching/)

        The pro's and con's have been endlessly debated on every forum I've
        seen. If anyone wants to find out what each side has to say they can,
        with a little work, dig it out of:
        the groundspeak forums
        (http://opentopic.groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic),
        the old groundspeak forums archive
        (not all posts migrated to the new forums, not sure how to get to
        these anymore),
        the archive of the usenet group alt.rec.geocaching,
        the original email list "Global Positioning Stash Hunt" archives
        (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsstash/),
        the Navicache forums
        (http://navicache.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi),
        or the Geocaching Worldwide Forums
        (http://www.geocachingworldwide.com/forum.asp)

        Questions about centralized vs. decentralized, open source vs.
        proprietary, single owner vs. organization, cache ownership vs. cache
        stewardship, responsibilities of cache owners and listers,
        cohesiveness of the data set vs. stale data sets, longevity of data
        in the hands of a single entity, the legal status of databases,
        oversight of listings vs. unrestricted listings, single contact point
        for land agencies vs. multiple groups, etc., et al, ad nauseum are
        all there.

        Those who've decided that they don't want anything do do with
        geocaching.com but still enjoy geocaching have typically gone to
        alt.rec.geocaching to discuss the sport, and post their caches to one
        of the alternate listing sites. By doing so their caches still end up
        on Buxley's maps and are available to most cachers.

        My opinions on the issues would probably quadruple (at least) the
        length of this post so I'll just stick a sock in it and keep them to
        myself for now.

        Glad this conversation is still alive.

        Cache on!,
        -Eoghan
      • Daniel McGauley
        My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a copy of the cache hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache, but I still get them rejected. My
        Message 3 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
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          My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a copy of the cache
          hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache, but I still get
          them rejected. My rejections have been for a variety of reasons. One
          was because the virtual cache was too easy to find because part of the
          name was on topographical maps. Two more were from virtual caches where
          they said I had no way of proving a person went to a cache or not even
          though I have a custom CGI script that verifies this. The final one was
          because it was too close to another cache. I know of all the caches in
          Austin and I know my cache was close to another cache, but it wasn't
          close enough to cause confusion. I was very tactful with the geocaching
          admins, but they were rather rude. I finally tried putting pressure on
          them by telling them to either post the cache or I'm not paying an
          annual support fee like I have every year the sport has been around.
          They told me the rules are the rules, which was funny since this wasn't
          in the RULES! I don't like dealing with idiots, and their actions were
          very idiotic, so until I hear the sport is changing for the better I'm
          going to find a new hobby.

          I don't think most people have problems with the geocaching guys though
          because they hide normal sized caches. I like hiding virtual caches
          because they take people to neat places in Austin. I hid the bullet
          hole cache at U.T., a couple of movie caches that take you to places
          where famous movies have been shot, the focault pendulum cache on 35,
          and several others. I was told by the geocache admins that until I can
          PROVE that someone went to those sites, I can't post them any more. I'm
          sure most of you have used my auto-logging system. I think that's proof
          enough, but they wanted more. I suggested they build virtual-checking
          into their site, and they said they might in the future, so until then
          I'm not going to spend the energy hiding stuff only to cross my fingers
          that they'll post it.

          It's a fun sport, and I enjoyed playing it, but whenever politics get
          involved I usually get out.

          -Daniel

          > -----Original Message-----
          > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
          > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:51 AM
          > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
          > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
          > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
          >
          >
          > Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will look
          > at this groups
          > log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have archives from
          > September where Dan posted problems as well.
          >
          > The problems encountered are across the spectrum, from caches
          > that are too close together to "by looking at a map, that
          > doesn't look like a good cache spot.
          >
          > If they want to better manage the cache placement process,
          > then get reliable people in each area to volunteer to verify
          > cache placement and location before final approval.
          >
          > The biggest problem I see with their rules is that a) they
          > can't actually verify the cache location, b) the wording used
          > in creating the cache placement page is critical to getting
          > approval, and c) anyone can get a cache posted with a little
          > effort (changing location, description, etc... after approval)
          >
          >
          > ----- Original Message -----
          > From: "Ken Mikolaj" <stars_fan_2001@...>
          > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
          > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:41 AM
          > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
          > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
          >
          >
          > > I don't know the details or background of what is
          > > being spoken about here.....but I can tell you that I
          > > don't like having 4 caches in one park. I like 1
          > > (maybe 2 if the park is large enough) per park/area.
          > > So, if the only rule that is being enforced is one
          > > that limits how close caches can be, then what's the
          > > problem? Are people hooked on trying to make it a
          > competition on how
          > > many caches they find (therefore, many caches close together is
          > > benificial in some strange way...makes those 'find' numbers grow
          > > quicker)?
          > >
          > > I placed my 2 caches about 10 months ago and had no
          > > problems.
          > >
          > > What kind of rules are Jeremy and his minions
          > > inforcing?
          > >
          > > Posting just a "Texas" geocaching site is not the
          > > answer. The good part about a central location for
          > > all caches is that when you travel, you can find
          > > caches in the area traveled to with ease. If every
          > state/city/county
          > > had their own site, it would be a nightmare.
          > >
          > > The solution is to let the people that are lessening
          > > your enjoyment of the game know this. Let them know
          > > what they are doing wrong. When enough people tell
          > > them, they will change. Otherwise, fewer people will
          > > play the game on the geocaching site, it (the site)
          > > will die, and a new one will start somewhere else.
          > >
          > > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
          > > geocaching ranks?
          > >
          > > --- David Gahagan <david@...> wrote:
          > > > Mark, et al.... I too am growing tired of Jeremy and
          > > > his little minions
          > > > telling me how to play my game. Jeremy did a good
          > > > job and was fair in cache
          > > > placements, these little pinheads he has helping him
          > > > don't have a clue what
          > > > they are doing. If I want to post a cache on the
          > > > roof of my house (granted
          > > > it meets the non-commercial rules, etc...) then I
          > > > should be able to do it.
          > > > Who cares if there is another cache 25ft, 50ft,
          > > > 200ft or even 2000ft away.
          > >
          > > __________________________________________________
          > > Do you Yahoo!?
          > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
          > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
          > >
          > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          > >
          > >
          > >
          > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          > >
          > >
          >
          >
          >
          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
          > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
          >
          >
          >
          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
          > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
          >
          >
        • Ken Mikolaj
          That s very interesting since there is no way prove someone was at ANY cache. The mere scribbling of some notes in a log book does not prove you were there.
          Message 4 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
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            That's very interesting since there is no way 'prove'
            someone was at ANY cache. The mere scribbling of some
            notes in a log book does not prove you were there.
            Someone could have taken the log book to you & then
            returned it after you signed it. I think the whole
            "can't post a cache until you can prove someone was
            there" is totaly bogus. There are no prizes for
            finding a cache. I could go to geocaching.com right
            now and log 1,000 finds and nobody could prove that I
            wasn't there.

            I'm going to keep my eyes open on this issue. This is
            very disturbing & does not point to a bright future
            for this hobby.


            --- Daniel McGauley <hawkeye@...>
            wrote:
            > My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a
            > copy of the cache
            > hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache,
            > but I still get
            > them rejected. My rejections have been for a
            > variety of reasons. One
            > was because the virtual cache was too easy to find
            > because part of the
            > name was on topographical maps. Two more were from
            > virtual caches where
            > they said I had no way of proving a person went to a
            > cache or not even
            > though I have a custom CGI script that verifies
            > this. The final one was
            > because it was too close to another cache. I know
            > of all the caches in
            > Austin and I know my cache was close to another
            > cache, but it wasn't
            > close enough to cause confusion. I was very tactful
            > with the geocaching
            > admins, but they were rather rude. I finally tried
            > putting pressure on
            > them by telling them to either post the cache or I'm
            > not paying an
            > annual support fee like I have every year the sport
            > has been around.
            > They told me the rules are the rules, which was
            > funny since this wasn't
            > in the RULES! I don't like dealing with idiots, and
            > their actions were
            > very idiotic, so until I hear the sport is changing
            > for the better I'm
            > going to find a new hobby.
            >
            > I don't think most people have problems with the
            > geocaching guys though
            > because they hide normal sized caches. I like
            > hiding virtual caches
            > because they take people to neat places in Austin.
            > I hid the bullet
            > hole cache at U.T., a couple of movie caches that
            > take you to places
            > where famous movies have been shot, the focault
            > pendulum cache on 35,
            > and several others. I was told by the geocache
            > admins that until I can
            > PROVE that someone went to those sites, I can't post
            > them any more. I'm
            > sure most of you have used my auto-logging system.
            > I think that's proof
            > enough, but they wanted more. I suggested they
            > build virtual-checking
            > into their site, and they said they might in the
            > future, so until then
            > I'm not going to spend the energy hiding stuff only
            > to cross my fingers
            > that they'll post it.
            >
            > It's a fun sport, and I enjoyed playing it, but
            > whenever politics get
            > involved I usually get out.
            >
            > -Daniel


            __________________________________________________
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            Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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          • David Gahagan
            Dan, could you post your experiences to the thread I started at Geocaching.com. Maybe Jeremy will find my thread and provide some input. ... From: Daniel
            Message 5 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
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              Dan, could you post your experiences to the thread I started at
              Geocaching.com.

              Maybe Jeremy will find my thread and provide some input.


              ----- Original Message -----
              From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
              To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
              Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:17 PM
              Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen if they decide
              to pick up their toys and go home?


              > My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a copy of the cache
              > hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache, but I still get
              > them rejected. My rejections have been for a variety of reasons. One
              > was because the virtual cache was too easy to find because part of the
              > name was on topographical maps. Two more were from virtual caches where
              > they said I had no way of proving a person went to a cache or not even
              > though I have a custom CGI script that verifies this. The final one was
              > because it was too close to another cache. I know of all the caches in
              > Austin and I know my cache was close to another cache, but it wasn't
              > close enough to cause confusion. I was very tactful with the geocaching
              > admins, but they were rather rude. I finally tried putting pressure on
              > them by telling them to either post the cache or I'm not paying an
              > annual support fee like I have every year the sport has been around.
              > They told me the rules are the rules, which was funny since this wasn't
              > in the RULES! I don't like dealing with idiots, and their actions were
              > very idiotic, so until I hear the sport is changing for the better I'm
              > going to find a new hobby.
              >
              > I don't think most people have problems with the geocaching guys though
              > because they hide normal sized caches. I like hiding virtual caches
              > because they take people to neat places in Austin. I hid the bullet
              > hole cache at U.T., a couple of movie caches that take you to places
              > where famous movies have been shot, the focault pendulum cache on 35,
              > and several others. I was told by the geocache admins that until I can
              > PROVE that someone went to those sites, I can't post them any more. I'm
              > sure most of you have used my auto-logging system. I think that's proof
              > enough, but they wanted more. I suggested they build virtual-checking
              > into their site, and they said they might in the future, so until then
              > I'm not going to spend the energy hiding stuff only to cross my fingers
              > that they'll post it.
              >
              > It's a fun sport, and I enjoyed playing it, but whenever politics get
              > involved I usually get out.
              >
              > -Daniel
              >
              > > -----Original Message-----
              > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:51 AM
              > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
              > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
              > > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
              > >
              > >
              > > Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will look
              > > at this groups
              > > log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have archives from
              > > September where Dan posted problems as well.
              > >
              > > The problems encountered are across the spectrum, from caches
              > > that are too close together to "by looking at a map, that
              > > doesn't look like a good cache spot.
              > >
              > > If they want to better manage the cache placement process,
              > > then get reliable people in each area to volunteer to verify
              > > cache placement and location before final approval.
              > >
              > > The biggest problem I see with their rules is that a) they
              > > can't actually verify the cache location, b) the wording used
              > > in creating the cache placement page is critical to getting
              > > approval, and c) anyone can get a cache posted with a little
              > > effort (changing location, description, etc... after approval)
              > >
              > >
              > > ----- Original Message -----
              > > From: "Ken Mikolaj" <stars_fan_2001@...>
              > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
              > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:41 AM
              > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
              > > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
              > >
              > >
              > > > I don't know the details or background of what is
              > > > being spoken about here.....but I can tell you that I
              > > > don't like having 4 caches in one park. I like 1
              > > > (maybe 2 if the park is large enough) per park/area.
              > > > So, if the only rule that is being enforced is one
              > > > that limits how close caches can be, then what's the
              > > > problem? Are people hooked on trying to make it a
              > > competition on how
              > > > many caches they find (therefore, many caches close together is
              > > > benificial in some strange way...makes those 'find' numbers grow
              > > > quicker)?
              > > >
              > > > I placed my 2 caches about 10 months ago and had no
              > > > problems.
              > > >
              > > > What kind of rules are Jeremy and his minions
              > > > inforcing?
              > > >
              > > > Posting just a "Texas" geocaching site is not the
              > > > answer. The good part about a central location for
              > > > all caches is that when you travel, you can find
              > > > caches in the area traveled to with ease. If every
              > > state/city/county
              > > > had their own site, it would be a nightmare.
              > > >
              > > > The solution is to let the people that are lessening
              > > > your enjoyment of the game know this. Let them know
              > > > what they are doing wrong. When enough people tell
              > > > them, they will change. Otherwise, fewer people will
              > > > play the game on the geocaching site, it (the site)
              > > > will die, and a new one will start somewhere else.
              > > >
              > > > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
              > > > geocaching ranks?
              > > >
              > > > --- David Gahagan <david@...> wrote:
              > > > > Mark, et al.... I too am growing tired of Jeremy and
              > > > > his little minions
              > > > > telling me how to play my game. Jeremy did a good
              > > > > job and was fair in cache
              > > > > placements, these little pinheads he has helping him
              > > > > don't have a clue what
              > > > > they are doing. If I want to post a cache on the
              > > > > roof of my house (granted
              > > > > it meets the non-commercial rules, etc...) then I
              > > > > should be able to do it.
              > > > > Who cares if there is another cache 25ft, 50ft,
              > > > > 200ft or even 2000ft away.
              > > >
              > > > __________________________________________________
              > > > Do you Yahoo!?
              > > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
              > > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
              > > >
              > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > > >
              > > >
              > > >
              > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > > >
              > > >
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              > >
              > >
              > >
              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              > >
              > >
              >
              >
              >
              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
              > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
              >
              >
              >
              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
              >
              >
            • Daniel McGauley
              I don t mind posting it there David, but I ve talked directly with Jeremy (via email), and he s the one who told me all of this, so I didn t really have many
              Message 6 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
              • 0 Attachment
                I don't mind posting it there David, but I've talked directly with
                Jeremy (via email), and he's the one who told me all of this, so I
                didn't really have many more places in which to complain. Just for your
                information "erik88l-r" (Erik) is the one who has cancelled all my
                recent caches. So, if yours gets cancelled by him don't be surprised.

                What's sad is that they came up with posting rules to follow and I've
                followed all of them, but the caches were still cancelled. I asked
                Jeremy for the location where proximity is listed in the posting rules
                and he responded on my cache page with "This cache will not be approved.
                It is entirely too close to an existing cache" and that's it. After
                threatening to not support the sport any more and being as tactful as
                possible, this was a giant middle-finger to me and fellow cachers, so my
                only recourse was to stop the sport entirely. That's worked well for me
                because now I don't have to deal with these immature people. If they
                came up with better guidelines and adjusted their page slightly to
                support "proof" of virtual cache finds that would be one thing, but to
                pay $30+ per year for very few features and then to have horrible
                customer service, I'll treat them like any other bad business and take
                my business elsewhere .. like the arcade. I really liked the sport
                though, and I still subscribe to this mailing list because I made some
                good friends caching and this is the best way to keep in touch with them
                since I'm not running into them on the 'field' any more.

                I hope things change in the future for the sport, but it's unlikely.

                -Dan

                > -----Original Message-----
                > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 1:53 PM
                > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                >
                >
                > Dan, could you post your experiences to the thread I started
                > at Geocaching.com.
                >
                > Maybe Jeremy will find my thread and provide some input.
                >
                >
                > ----- Original Message -----
                > From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:17 PM
                > Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                >
                >
                > > My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a copy
                > of the cache
                > > hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache, but I
                > still get
                > > them rejected. My rejections have been for a variety of
                > reasons. One
                > > was because the virtual cache was too easy to find because
                > part of the
                > > name was on topographical maps. Two more were from virtual caches
                > > where they said I had no way of proving a person went to a cache or
                > > not even though I have a custom CGI script that verifies this. The
                > > final one was because it was too close to another cache. I know of
                > > all the caches in Austin and I know my cache was close to another
                > > cache, but it wasn't close enough to cause confusion. I was very
                > > tactful with the geocaching admins, but they were rather rude. I
                > > finally tried putting pressure on them by telling them to
                > either post
                > > the cache or I'm not paying an annual support fee like I have every
                > > year the sport has been around. They told me the rules are
                > the rules,
                > > which was funny since this wasn't in the RULES! I don't
                > like dealing
                > > with idiots, and their actions were very idiotic, so until
                > I hear the
                > > sport is changing for the better I'm going to find a new hobby.
                > >
                > > I don't think most people have problems with the geocaching guys
                > > though because they hide normal sized caches. I like
                > hiding virtual
                > > caches because they take people to neat places in Austin.
                > I hid the
                > > bullet hole cache at U.T., a couple of movie caches that
                > take you to
                > > places where famous movies have been shot, the focault
                > pendulum cache
                > > on 35, and several others. I was told by the geocache admins that
                > > until I can PROVE that someone went to those sites, I can't
                > post them
                > > any more. I'm sure most of you have used my auto-logging
                > system. I
                > > think that's proof enough, but they wanted more. I suggested they
                > > build virtual-checking into their site, and they said they might in
                > > the future, so until then I'm not going to spend the energy hiding
                > > stuff only to cross my fingers that they'll post it.
                > >
                > > It's a fun sport, and I enjoyed playing it, but whenever
                > politics get
                > > involved I usually get out.
                > >
                > > -Daniel
                > >
                > > > -----Original Message-----
                > > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:51 AM
                > > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                > happen if they
                > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will
                > look at this
                > > > groups
                > > > log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have
                > archives from
                > > > September where Dan posted problems as well.
                > > >
                > > > The problems encountered are across the spectrum, from
                > caches that
                > > > are too close together to "by looking at a map, that doesn't look
                > > > like a good cache spot.
                > > >
                > > > If they want to better manage the cache placement
                > process, then get
                > > > reliable people in each area to volunteer to verify cache
                > placement
                > > > and location before final approval.
                > > >
                > > > The biggest problem I see with their rules is that a) they can't
                > > > actually verify the cache location, b) the wording used
                > in creating
                > > > the cache placement page is critical to getting approval, and c)
                > > > anyone can get a cache posted with a little effort (changing
                > > > location, description, etc... after approval)
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > ----- Original Message -----
                > > > From: "Ken Mikolaj" <stars_fan_2001@...>
                > > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:41 AM
                > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                > happen if they
                > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > > I don't know the details or background of what is
                > > > > being spoken about here.....but I can tell you that I
                > don't like
                > > > > having 4 caches in one park. I like 1 (maybe 2 if the park is
                > > > > large enough) per park/area. So, if the only rule that is being
                > > > > enforced is one that limits how close caches can be,
                > then what's
                > > > > the problem? Are people hooked on trying to make it a
                > > > competition on how
                > > > > many caches they find (therefore, many caches close together is
                > > > > benificial in some strange way...makes those 'find'
                > numbers grow
                > > > > quicker)?
                > > > >
                > > > > I placed my 2 caches about 10 months ago and had no problems.
                > > > >
                > > > > What kind of rules are Jeremy and his minions
                > > > > inforcing?
                > > > >
                > > > > Posting just a "Texas" geocaching site is not the answer. The
                > > > > good part about a central location for all caches is
                > that when you
                > > > > travel, you can find caches in the area traveled to
                > with ease. If
                > > > > every
                > > > state/city/county
                > > > > had their own site, it would be a nightmare.
                > > > >
                > > > > The solution is to let the people that are lessening
                > > > > your enjoyment of the game know this. Let them know
                > > > > what they are doing wrong. When enough people tell
                > > > > them, they will change. Otherwise, fewer people will play the
                > > > > game on the geocaching site, it (the site) will die,
                > and a new one
                > > > > will start somewhere else.
                > > > >
                > > > > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
                > geocaching ranks?
                > > > >
                > > > > --- David Gahagan <david@...> wrote:
                > > > > > Mark, et al.... I too am growing tired of Jeremy and
                > his little
                > > > > > minions telling me how to play my game. Jeremy did a good
                > > > > > job and was fair in cache
                > > > > > placements, these little pinheads he has helping him
                > > > > > don't have a clue what
                > > > > > they are doing. If I want to post a cache on the
                > > > > > roof of my house (granted
                > > > > > it meets the non-commercial rules, etc...) then I
                > > > > > should be able to do it.
                > > > > > Who cares if there is another cache 25ft, 50ft,
                > > > > > 200ft or even 2000ft away.
                > > > >
                > > > > __________________________________________________
                > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                > > > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                > > > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                > > > >
                > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > > >
                > > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > > >
                > > >
                > > >
                > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > > >
                > > >
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                > >
                > >
                > >
                > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                > >
                > >
                >
                >
                >
                > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                >
                >
                >
                > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                >
                >
                >
              • GPS Dude
                Actually, there IS a way to prove that people have been to a webcam cache, or at least my webcam caches because I make people post an image of themselves doing
                Message 7 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
                • 0 Attachment
                  Actually, there IS a way to prove that people have been to a webcam
                  cache, or at least my webcam caches because I make people post an image
                  of themselves doing something silly (and they all seem to enjoy
                  that....go figure). I realize that webcams are an exception to the
                  "prove it" rule.

                  However, on the topic of the maximum number of caches in a park, I think
                  everyone would agree it totally depends on the size of the park. Take
                  the Austin Barton Creek Greenbelt, I think there are around 10 caches in
                  there and it could easily hold a few more. Personally, I like being
                  able to park my car in one place and then hike for 3-5 hours to find a
                  series of caches. Although I have done my share of park...find URP in
                  20 minutes, get back in car and drive to another park, find URP, etc...
                  I still prefer more caches in the parks in general. I'm not concerned
                  too much with my number of finds as I am in having a wide diversity of
                  GOOD caches.

                  I'm not against virtuals either, as I have hidden some and found many,
                  but I do get a bit tired of "what is the last word on named Historical
                  plaque". Actually, the geocaching.com website says "although many
                  locations are interesting, a virtual cache should be out of the ordinary
                  enough to warrant logging a visit". Now everyone can interpret that
                  statement how they want to but I read "out of the ordinary" as things
                  you don't just find everywhere (like historical plaques). Although I
                  enjoy history, I'd rather not visit every historical plaque in Austin.
                  Don't get me wrong, I have done some of Daniel's virtuals and really
                  loved them (I attended UT and never could find that bullet hole until
                  Daniel's virtual came along).

                  I guess what I'm trying to say is that they may be scrutinizing virtuals
                  more than regular caches because of the proliferation of historical
                  plaque type virtuals.

                  Scott Robuck
                  Team GeoDillo

                  "Trying is the first step towards failure."
                  -- Homer Simpson
                • David Gahagan
                  What do you mean Erik cancelled all your recent caches? Ones that you places or ones that you claimed to find? Well if you have talked to Jeremy, then so be
                  Message 8 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
                  • 0 Attachment
                    What do you mean Erik cancelled all your recent caches? Ones that you
                    places or ones that you claimed to find?

                    Well if you have talked to Jeremy, then so be it. I moving in the direction
                    of your boat at this point. These tools have made the site, and thus the
                    sport nothing but a political quagmire of unlisted rules, regulations and
                    pie in the sky dreams of how they want the sport to work.

                    In the words of Homer Simpson, they can "cram it with walnuts".


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                    To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:16 PM
                    Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen if they decide
                    to pick up their toys and go home?


                    > I don't mind posting it there David, but I've talked directly with
                    > Jeremy (via email), and he's the one who told me all of this, so I
                    > didn't really have many more places in which to complain. Just for your
                    > information "erik88l-r" (Erik) is the one who has cancelled all my
                    > recent caches. So, if yours gets cancelled by him don't be surprised.
                    >
                    > What's sad is that they came up with posting rules to follow and I've
                    > followed all of them, but the caches were still cancelled. I asked
                    > Jeremy for the location where proximity is listed in the posting rules
                    > and he responded on my cache page with "This cache will not be approved.
                    > It is entirely too close to an existing cache" and that's it. After
                    > threatening to not support the sport any more and being as tactful as
                    > possible, this was a giant middle-finger to me and fellow cachers, so my
                    > only recourse was to stop the sport entirely. That's worked well for me
                    > because now I don't have to deal with these immature people. If they
                    > came up with better guidelines and adjusted their page slightly to
                    > support "proof" of virtual cache finds that would be one thing, but to
                    > pay $30+ per year for very few features and then to have horrible
                    > customer service, I'll treat them like any other bad business and take
                    > my business elsewhere .. like the arcade. I really liked the sport
                    > though, and I still subscribe to this mailing list because I made some
                    > good friends caching and this is the best way to keep in touch with them
                    > since I'm not running into them on the 'field' any more.
                    >
                    > I hope things change in the future for the sport, but it's unlikely.
                    >
                    > -Dan
                    >
                    > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 1:53 PM
                    > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                    > > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Dan, could you post your experiences to the thread I started
                    > > at Geocaching.com.
                    > >
                    > > Maybe Jeremy will find my thread and provide some input.
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                    > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:17 PM
                    > > Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                    > > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > > My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a copy
                    > > of the cache
                    > > > hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache, but I
                    > > still get
                    > > > them rejected. My rejections have been for a variety of
                    > > reasons. One
                    > > > was because the virtual cache was too easy to find because
                    > > part of the
                    > > > name was on topographical maps. Two more were from virtual caches
                    > > > where they said I had no way of proving a person went to a cache or
                    > > > not even though I have a custom CGI script that verifies this. The
                    > > > final one was because it was too close to another cache. I know of
                    > > > all the caches in Austin and I know my cache was close to another
                    > > > cache, but it wasn't close enough to cause confusion. I was very
                    > > > tactful with the geocaching admins, but they were rather rude. I
                    > > > finally tried putting pressure on them by telling them to
                    > > either post
                    > > > the cache or I'm not paying an annual support fee like I have every
                    > > > year the sport has been around. They told me the rules are
                    > > the rules,
                    > > > which was funny since this wasn't in the RULES! I don't
                    > > like dealing
                    > > > with idiots, and their actions were very idiotic, so until
                    > > I hear the
                    > > > sport is changing for the better I'm going to find a new hobby.
                    > > >
                    > > > I don't think most people have problems with the geocaching guys
                    > > > though because they hide normal sized caches. I like
                    > > hiding virtual
                    > > > caches because they take people to neat places in Austin.
                    > > I hid the
                    > > > bullet hole cache at U.T., a couple of movie caches that
                    > > take you to
                    > > > places where famous movies have been shot, the focault
                    > > pendulum cache
                    > > > on 35, and several others. I was told by the geocache admins that
                    > > > until I can PROVE that someone went to those sites, I can't
                    > > post them
                    > > > any more. I'm sure most of you have used my auto-logging
                    > > system. I
                    > > > think that's proof enough, but they wanted more. I suggested they
                    > > > build virtual-checking into their site, and they said they might in
                    > > > the future, so until then I'm not going to spend the energy hiding
                    > > > stuff only to cross my fingers that they'll post it.
                    > > >
                    > > > It's a fun sport, and I enjoyed playing it, but whenever
                    > > politics get
                    > > > involved I usually get out.
                    > > >
                    > > > -Daniel
                    > > >
                    > > > > -----Original Message-----
                    > > > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:51 AM
                    > > > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                    > > happen if they
                    > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will
                    > > look at this
                    > > > > groups
                    > > > > log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have
                    > > archives from
                    > > > > September where Dan posted problems as well.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The problems encountered are across the spectrum, from
                    > > caches that
                    > > > > are too close together to "by looking at a map, that doesn't look
                    > > > > like a good cache spot.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > If they want to better manage the cache placement
                    > > process, then get
                    > > > > reliable people in each area to volunteer to verify cache
                    > > placement
                    > > > > and location before final approval.
                    > > > >
                    > > > > The biggest problem I see with their rules is that a) they can't
                    > > > > actually verify the cache location, b) the wording used
                    > > in creating
                    > > > > the cache placement page is critical to getting approval, and c)
                    > > > > anyone can get a cache posted with a little effort (changing
                    > > > > location, description, etc... after approval)
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                    > > > > From: "Ken Mikolaj" <stars_fan_2001@...>
                    > > > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                    > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:41 AM
                    > > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                    > > happen if they
                    > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > > I don't know the details or background of what is
                    > > > > > being spoken about here.....but I can tell you that I
                    > > don't like
                    > > > > > having 4 caches in one park. I like 1 (maybe 2 if the park is
                    > > > > > large enough) per park/area. So, if the only rule that is being
                    > > > > > enforced is one that limits how close caches can be,
                    > > then what's
                    > > > > > the problem? Are people hooked on trying to make it a
                    > > > > competition on how
                    > > > > > many caches they find (therefore, many caches close together is
                    > > > > > benificial in some strange way...makes those 'find'
                    > > numbers grow
                    > > > > > quicker)?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > I placed my 2 caches about 10 months ago and had no problems.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > What kind of rules are Jeremy and his minions
                    > > > > > inforcing?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Posting just a "Texas" geocaching site is not the answer. The
                    > > > > > good part about a central location for all caches is
                    > > that when you
                    > > > > > travel, you can find caches in the area traveled to
                    > > with ease. If
                    > > > > > every
                    > > > > state/city/county
                    > > > > > had their own site, it would be a nightmare.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > The solution is to let the people that are lessening
                    > > > > > your enjoyment of the game know this. Let them know
                    > > > > > what they are doing wrong. When enough people tell
                    > > > > > them, they will change. Otherwise, fewer people will play the
                    > > > > > game on the geocaching site, it (the site) will die,
                    > > and a new one
                    > > > > > will start somewhere else.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
                    > > geocaching ranks?
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > --- David Gahagan <david@...> wrote:
                    > > > > > > Mark, et al.... I too am growing tired of Jeremy and
                    > > his little
                    > > > > > > minions telling me how to play my game. Jeremy did a good
                    > > > > > > job and was fair in cache
                    > > > > > > placements, these little pinheads he has helping him
                    > > > > > > don't have a clue what
                    > > > > > > they are doing. If I want to post a cache on the
                    > > > > > > roof of my house (granted
                    > > > > > > it meets the non-commercial rules, etc...) then I
                    > > > > > > should be able to do it.
                    > > > > > > Who cares if there is another cache 25ft, 50ft,
                    > > > > > > 200ft or even 2000ft away.
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > __________________________________________________
                    > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                    > > > > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                    > > > > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > > > >
                    > > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > > >
                    > > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > > >
                    > > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                    > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    > >
                    > >
                    > >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                    > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                  • Daniel McGauley
                    I ve never had a find cancelled, only hides. I know they are only doing it to try to make the sport better in their eyes, but when one of their original
                    Message 9 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
                    • 0 Attachment
                      I've never had a 'find' cancelled, only 'hides.' I know they are only
                      doing it to try to make the sport better in their eyes, but when one of
                      their original cachers with a high-find count who pays dues every year
                      asks for an audience with the pope and gets brushed off, I realize this
                      sport isn't for me.

                      -Daniel

                      > -----Original Message-----
                      > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                      > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:43 PM
                      > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                      > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                      > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                      >
                      >
                      > What do you mean Erik cancelled all your recent caches? Ones
                      > that you places or ones that you claimed to find?
                      >
                      > Well if you have talked to Jeremy, then so be it. I moving
                      > in the direction of your boat at this point. These tools
                      > have made the site, and thus the sport nothing but a
                      > political quagmire of unlisted rules, regulations and pie in
                      > the sky dreams of how they want the sport to work.
                      >
                      > In the words of Homer Simpson, they can "cram it with walnuts".
                      >
                      >
                      > ----- Original Message -----
                      > From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                      > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                      > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:16 PM
                      > Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                      > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                      >
                      >
                      > > I don't mind posting it there David, but I've talked directly with
                      > > Jeremy (via email), and he's the one who told me all of this, so I
                      > > didn't really have many more places in which to complain. Just for
                      > > your information "erik88l-r" (Erik) is the one who has
                      > cancelled all
                      > > my recent caches. So, if yours gets cancelled by him don't be
                      > > surprised.
                      > >
                      > > What's sad is that they came up with posting rules to
                      > follow and I've
                      > > followed all of them, but the caches were still cancelled. I asked
                      > > Jeremy for the location where proximity is listed in the
                      > posting rules
                      > > and he responded on my cache page with "This cache will not be
                      > > approved. It is entirely too close to an existing cache" and that's
                      > > it. After threatening to not support the sport any more
                      > and being as
                      > > tactful as possible, this was a giant middle-finger to me
                      > and fellow
                      > > cachers, so my only recourse was to stop the sport
                      > entirely. That's
                      > > worked well for me because now I don't have to deal with these
                      > > immature people. If they came up with better guidelines
                      > and adjusted
                      > > their page slightly to support "proof" of virtual cache finds that
                      > > would be one thing, but to pay $30+ per year for very few
                      > features and
                      > > then to have horrible customer service, I'll treat them
                      > like any other
                      > > bad business and take my business elsewhere .. like the arcade. I
                      > > really liked the sport though, and I still subscribe to
                      > this mailing
                      > > list because I made some good friends caching and this is
                      > the best way
                      > > to keep in touch with them since I'm not running into them on the
                      > > 'field' any more.
                      > >
                      > > I hope things change in the future for the sport, but it's unlikely.
                      > >
                      > > -Dan
                      > >
                      > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 1:53 PM
                      > > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                      > happen if they
                      > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Dan, could you post your experiences to the thread I started at
                      > > > Geocaching.com.
                      > > >
                      > > > Maybe Jeremy will find my thread and provide some input.
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                      > > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:17 PM
                      > > > Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                      > happen if they
                      > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > > My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a copy
                      > > > of the cache
                      > > > > hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache, but I
                      > > > still get
                      > > > > them rejected. My rejections have been for a variety of
                      > > > reasons. One
                      > > > > was because the virtual cache was too easy to find because
                      > > > part of the
                      > > > > name was on topographical maps. Two more were from
                      > virtual caches
                      > > > > where they said I had no way of proving a person went
                      > to a cache
                      > > > > or not even though I have a custom CGI script that
                      > verifies this.
                      > > > > The final one was because it was too close to another cache. I
                      > > > > know of all the caches in Austin and I know my cache
                      > was close to
                      > > > > another cache, but it wasn't close enough to cause
                      > confusion. I
                      > > > > was very tactful with the geocaching admins, but they
                      > were rather
                      > > > > rude. I finally tried putting pressure on them by
                      > telling them to
                      > > > either post
                      > > > > the cache or I'm not paying an annual support fee like I have
                      > > > > every year the sport has been around. They told me the rules are
                      > > > the rules,
                      > > > > which was funny since this wasn't in the RULES! I don't
                      > > > like dealing
                      > > > > with idiots, and their actions were very idiotic, so until
                      > > > I hear the
                      > > > > sport is changing for the better I'm going to find a new hobby.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > I don't think most people have problems with the
                      > geocaching guys
                      > > > > though because they hide normal sized caches. I like
                      > > > hiding virtual
                      > > > > caches because they take people to neat places in Austin.
                      > > > I hid the
                      > > > > bullet hole cache at U.T., a couple of movie caches that
                      > > > take you to
                      > > > > places where famous movies have been shot, the focault
                      > > > pendulum cache
                      > > > > on 35, and several others. I was told by the geocache
                      > admins that
                      > > > > until I can PROVE that someone went to those sites, I can't
                      > > > post them
                      > > > > any more. I'm sure most of you have used my auto-logging
                      > > > system. I
                      > > > > think that's proof enough, but they wanted more. I
                      > suggested they
                      > > > > build virtual-checking into their site, and they said
                      > they might
                      > > > > in the future, so until then I'm not going to spend the energy
                      > > > > hiding stuff only to cross my fingers that they'll post it.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > It's a fun sport, and I enjoyed playing it, but whenever
                      > > > politics get
                      > > > > involved I usually get out.
                      > > > >
                      > > > > -Daniel
                      > > > >
                      > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                      > > > > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:51 AM
                      > > > > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                      > > > happen if they
                      > > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will
                      > > > look at this
                      > > > > > groups
                      > > > > > log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have
                      > > > archives from
                      > > > > > September where Dan posted problems as well.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The problems encountered are across the spectrum, from
                      > > > caches that
                      > > > > > are too close together to "by looking at a map, that doesn't
                      > > > > > look like a good cache spot.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > If they want to better manage the cache placement
                      > > > process, then get
                      > > > > > reliable people in each area to volunteer to verify cache
                      > > > placement
                      > > > > > and location before final approval.
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > The biggest problem I see with their rules is that a)
                      > they can't
                      > > > > > actually verify the cache location, b) the wording used
                      > > > in creating
                      > > > > > the cache placement page is critical to getting
                      > approval, and c)
                      > > > > > anyone can get a cache posted with a little effort (changing
                      > > > > > location, description, etc... after approval)
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                      > > > > > From: "Ken Mikolaj" <stars_fan_2001@...>
                      > > > > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                      > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:41 AM
                      > > > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                      > > > happen if they
                      > > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I don't know the details or background of what is
                      > being spoken
                      > > > > > > about here.....but I can tell you that I
                      > > > don't like
                      > > > > > > having 4 caches in one park. I like 1 (maybe 2 if
                      > the park is
                      > > > > > > large enough) per park/area. So, if the only rule that is
                      > > > > > > being enforced is one that limits how close caches can be,
                      > > > then what's
                      > > > > > > the problem? Are people hooked on trying to make it a
                      > > > > > competition on how
                      > > > > > > many caches they find (therefore, many caches close
                      > together
                      > > > > > > is benificial in some strange way...makes those 'find'
                      > > > numbers grow
                      > > > > > > quicker)?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > I placed my 2 caches about 10 months ago and had no
                      > problems.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > What kind of rules are Jeremy and his minions inforcing?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Posting just a "Texas" geocaching site is not the answer.
                      > > > > > > The good part about a central location for all caches is
                      > > > that when you
                      > > > > > > travel, you can find caches in the area traveled to
                      > > > with ease. If
                      > > > > > > every
                      > > > > > state/city/county
                      > > > > > > had their own site, it would be a nightmare.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > The solution is to let the people that are lessening your
                      > > > > > > enjoyment of the game know this. Let them know
                      > what they are
                      > > > > > > doing wrong. When enough people tell them, they
                      > will change.
                      > > > > > > Otherwise, fewer people will play the game on the
                      > geocaching
                      > > > > > > site, it (the site) will die,
                      > > > and a new one
                      > > > > > > will start somewhere else.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
                      > > > geocaching ranks?
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > --- David Gahagan <david@...> wrote:
                      > > > > > > > Mark, et al.... I too am growing tired of Jeremy and
                      > > > his little
                      > > > > > > > minions telling me how to play my game. Jeremy
                      > did a good
                      > > > > > > > job and was fair in cache placements, these
                      > little pinheads
                      > > > > > > > he has helping him don't have a clue what
                      > > > > > > > they are doing. If I want to post a cache on the
                      > > > > > > > roof of my house (granted
                      > > > > > > > it meets the non-commercial rules, etc...) then I
                      > > > > > > > should be able to do it.
                      > > > > > > > Who cares if there is another cache 25ft, 50ft,
                      > > > > > > > 200ft or even 2000ft away.
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > __________________________________________________
                      > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                      > > > > > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
                      > > > > > > http://mailplus.yahoo.com
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > > >
                      > > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > > >
                      > > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      > >
                      > >
                      > >
                      > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      > >
                      > >
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                      > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                      >
                      >
                      >
                      > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                      > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                      >
                      >
                      >
                    • David Gahagan
                      Based on the replies for my post at geocaching.com it sounds as though we are in the minority. Most of those people can t think outside the box, so anything
                      Message 10 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
                      • 0 Attachment
                        Based on the replies for my post at geocaching.com it sounds as though we
                        are in the minority. Most of those people can't think outside the box, so
                        anything out of the ordinary is foreign and thus against the rules.

                        What fools to eliminate so many wonderful places with such stupid rules.
                        They haven't even thought about those who may be physically disabled and
                        enjoy this sport. Tragic is the best word I can find to explain it.

                        See you on a trail in the future, maybe.

                        Looks like I'll have more time for homebrewing beer again..... :-) I guess
                        it isn't all bad!

                        Later
                        FireCacher


                        ----- Original Message -----
                        From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                        To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                        Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 3:13 PM
                        Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen if they decide
                        to pick up their toys and go home?


                        > I've never had a 'find' cancelled, only 'hides.' I know they are only
                        > doing it to try to make the sport better in their eyes, but when one of
                        > their original cachers with a high-find count who pays dues every year
                        > asks for an audience with the pope and gets brushed off, I realize this
                        > sport isn't for me.
                        >
                        > -Daniel
                        >
                        > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:43 PM
                        > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                        > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                        > > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > What do you mean Erik cancelled all your recent caches? Ones
                        > > that you places or ones that you claimed to find?
                        > >
                        > > Well if you have talked to Jeremy, then so be it. I moving
                        > > in the direction of your boat at this point. These tools
                        > > have made the site, and thus the sport nothing but a
                        > > political quagmire of unlisted rules, regulations and pie in
                        > > the sky dreams of how they want the sport to work.
                        > >
                        > > In the words of Homer Simpson, they can "cram it with walnuts".
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                        > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 2:16 PM
                        > > Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to happen
                        > > if they decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                        > >
                        > >
                        > > > I don't mind posting it there David, but I've talked directly with
                        > > > Jeremy (via email), and he's the one who told me all of this, so I
                        > > > didn't really have many more places in which to complain. Just for
                        > > > your information "erik88l-r" (Erik) is the one who has
                        > > cancelled all
                        > > > my recent caches. So, if yours gets cancelled by him don't be
                        > > > surprised.
                        > > >
                        > > > What's sad is that they came up with posting rules to
                        > > follow and I've
                        > > > followed all of them, but the caches were still cancelled. I asked
                        > > > Jeremy for the location where proximity is listed in the
                        > > posting rules
                        > > > and he responded on my cache page with "This cache will not be
                        > > > approved. It is entirely too close to an existing cache" and that's
                        > > > it. After threatening to not support the sport any more
                        > > and being as
                        > > > tactful as possible, this was a giant middle-finger to me
                        > > and fellow
                        > > > cachers, so my only recourse was to stop the sport
                        > > entirely. That's
                        > > > worked well for me because now I don't have to deal with these
                        > > > immature people. If they came up with better guidelines
                        > > and adjusted
                        > > > their page slightly to support "proof" of virtual cache finds that
                        > > > would be one thing, but to pay $30+ per year for very few
                        > > features and
                        > > > then to have horrible customer service, I'll treat them
                        > > like any other
                        > > > bad business and take my business elsewhere .. like the arcade. I
                        > > > really liked the sport though, and I still subscribe to
                        > > this mailing
                        > > > list because I made some good friends caching and this is
                        > > the best way
                        > > > to keep in touch with them since I'm not running into them on the
                        > > > 'field' any more.
                        > > >
                        > > > I hope things change in the future for the sport, but it's unlikely.
                        > > >
                        > > > -Dan
                        > > >
                        > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 1:53 PM
                        > > > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                        > > happen if they
                        > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Dan, could you post your experiences to the thread I started at
                        > > > > Geocaching.com.
                        > > > >
                        > > > > Maybe Jeremy will find my thread and provide some input.
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > From: "Daniel McGauley" <hawkeye@...>
                        > > > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 12:17 PM
                        > > > > Subject: RE: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                        > > happen if they
                        > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                        > > > >
                        > > > >
                        > > > > > My problem with the geocaching guys is that I have a copy
                        > > > > of the cache
                        > > > > > hiding rules and I follow them when I place a cache, but I
                        > > > > still get
                        > > > > > them rejected. My rejections have been for a variety of
                        > > > > reasons. One
                        > > > > > was because the virtual cache was too easy to find because
                        > > > > part of the
                        > > > > > name was on topographical maps. Two more were from
                        > > virtual caches
                        > > > > > where they said I had no way of proving a person went
                        > > to a cache
                        > > > > > or not even though I have a custom CGI script that
                        > > verifies this.
                        > > > > > The final one was because it was too close to another cache. I
                        > > > > > know of all the caches in Austin and I know my cache
                        > > was close to
                        > > > > > another cache, but it wasn't close enough to cause
                        > > confusion. I
                        > > > > > was very tactful with the geocaching admins, but they
                        > > were rather
                        > > > > > rude. I finally tried putting pressure on them by
                        > > telling them to
                        > > > > either post
                        > > > > > the cache or I'm not paying an annual support fee like I have
                        > > > > > every year the sport has been around. They told me the rules are
                        > > > > the rules,
                        > > > > > which was funny since this wasn't in the RULES! I don't
                        > > > > like dealing
                        > > > > > with idiots, and their actions were very idiotic, so until
                        > > > > I hear the
                        > > > > > sport is changing for the better I'm going to find a new hobby.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > I don't think most people have problems with the
                        > > geocaching guys
                        > > > > > though because they hide normal sized caches. I like
                        > > > > hiding virtual
                        > > > > > caches because they take people to neat places in Austin.
                        > > > > I hid the
                        > > > > > bullet hole cache at U.T., a couple of movie caches that
                        > > > > take you to
                        > > > > > places where famous movies have been shot, the focault
                        > > > > pendulum cache
                        > > > > > on 35, and several others. I was told by the geocache
                        > > admins that
                        > > > > > until I can PROVE that someone went to those sites, I can't
                        > > > > post them
                        > > > > > any more. I'm sure most of you have used my auto-logging
                        > > > > system. I
                        > > > > > think that's proof enough, but they wanted more. I
                        > > suggested they
                        > > > > > build virtual-checking into their site, and they said
                        > > they might
                        > > > > > in the future, so until then I'm not going to spend the energy
                        > > > > > hiding stuff only to cross my fingers that they'll post it.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > It's a fun sport, and I enjoyed playing it, but whenever
                        > > > > politics get
                        > > > > > involved I usually get out.
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > -Daniel
                        > > > > >
                        > > > > > > -----Original Message-----
                        > > > > > > From: David Gahagan [mailto:david@...]
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:51 AM
                        > > > > > > To: CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                        > > > > happen if they
                        > > > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > Mine has been brewing for months. I think if you will
                        > > > > look at this
                        > > > > > > groups
                        > > > > > > log, Dan posted something back in early summer. I have
                        > > > > archives from
                        > > > > > > September where Dan posted problems as well.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > The problems encountered are across the spectrum, from
                        > > > > caches that
                        > > > > > > are too close together to "by looking at a map, that doesn't
                        > > > > > > look like a good cache spot.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > If they want to better manage the cache placement
                        > > > > process, then get
                        > > > > > > reliable people in each area to volunteer to verify cache
                        > > > > placement
                        > > > > > > and location before final approval.
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > The biggest problem I see with their rules is that a)
                        > > they can't
                        > > > > > > actually verify the cache location, b) the wording used
                        > > > > in creating
                        > > > > > > the cache placement page is critical to getting
                        > > approval, and c)
                        > > > > > > anyone can get a cache posted with a little effort (changing
                        > > > > > > location, description, etc... after approval)
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > ----- Original Message -----
                        > > > > > > From: "Ken Mikolaj" <stars_fan_2001@...>
                        > > > > > > To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                        > > > > > > Sent: Tuesday, December 31, 2002 10:41 AM
                        > > > > > > Subject: Re: [CentralTexasGeocachers] What's going to
                        > > > > happen if they
                        > > > > > > decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I don't know the details or background of what is
                        > > being spoken
                        > > > > > > > about here.....but I can tell you that I
                        > > > > don't like
                        > > > > > > > having 4 caches in one park. I like 1 (maybe 2 if
                        > > the park is
                        > > > > > > > large enough) per park/area. So, if the only rule that is
                        > > > > > > > being enforced is one that limits how close caches can be,
                        > > > > then what's
                        > > > > > > > the problem? Are people hooked on trying to make it a
                        > > > > > > competition on how
                        > > > > > > > many caches they find (therefore, many caches close
                        > > together
                        > > > > > > > is benificial in some strange way...makes those 'find'
                        > > > > numbers grow
                        > > > > > > > quicker)?
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > I placed my 2 caches about 10 months ago and had no
                        > > problems.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > What kind of rules are Jeremy and his minions inforcing?
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Posting just a "Texas" geocaching site is not the answer.
                        > > > > > > > The good part about a central location for all caches is
                        > > > > that when you
                        > > > > > > > travel, you can find caches in the area traveled to
                        > > > > with ease. If
                        > > > > > > > every
                        > > > > > > state/city/county
                        > > > > > > > had their own site, it would be a nightmare.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > The solution is to let the people that are lessening your
                        > > > > > > > enjoyment of the game know this. Let them know
                        > > what they are
                        > > > > > > > doing wrong. When enough people tell them, they
                        > > will change.
                        > > > > > > > Otherwise, fewer people will play the game on the
                        > > geocaching
                        > > > > > > > site, it (the site) will die,
                        > > > > and a new one
                        > > > > > > > will start somewhere else.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
                        > > > > geocaching ranks?
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > --- David Gahagan <david@...> wrote:
                        > > > > > > > > Mark, et al.... I too am growing tired of Jeremy and
                        > > > > his little
                        > > > > > > > > minions telling me how to play my game. Jeremy
                        > > did a good
                        > > > > > > > > job and was fair in cache placements, these
                        > > little pinheads
                        > > > > > > > > he has helping him don't have a clue what
                        > > > > > > > > they are doing. If I want to post a cache on the
                        > > > > > > > > roof of my house (granted
                        > > > > > > > > it meets the non-commercial rules, etc...) then I
                        > > > > > > > > should be able to do it.
                        > > > > > > > > Who cares if there is another cache 25ft, 50ft,
                        > > > > > > > > 200ft or even 2000ft away.
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > __________________________________________________
                        > > > > > > > Do you Yahoo!?
                        > > > > > > > Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
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                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                        > > > > > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > >
                        > > > > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                        > > > > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
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                      • The Diver
                        Mark, What were the reasons for The Cheerful Dead being rejected? Based on the so called guidelines , I don t see why it should be rejected? alan aka The
                        Message 11 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
                        • 0 Attachment
                          Mark,

                          What were the reasons for "The Cheerful Dead" being rejected? Based on
                          the so called "guidelines", I don't see why it should be rejected?

                          alan
                          aka The Diver

                          On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 08:11, Mark Gessner wrote:
                          > I've been thinking about geocaching.com lately. I've had a perfectly
                          > legitimate virtual cache (GCB841, "The Cheerful Dead") on hold for a
                          > week while trying to convince the 'approver' that it is legitimate.
                          >
                          > Brings me to the subject point: what happens when the owners of
                          > geocaching.com decide to pick up their toys and go home? Seems like
                          > the whole game is played on their board with their pieces, by their
                          > rules, at their whim.
                          >
                          > I guess I'm wondering if there is some way to make this game 'open
                          > source.' Instead of a central geocaching.com site, have a more
                          > peer-to-peer arrangement with the cache pages spread out over many
                          > unrelated servers with perhaps a search engine or yahoo-like portal
                          > helping to tie them together.
                          >
                          > I would be a sad camper indeed if they ever shut down geocaching.com
                          > (on purpose or by accident). Anyone backing up their cache pages to a
                          > local machine?
                          >
                          > Could we recover if the powers that be got bored of geocaching.com and
                          > shut 'er down?
                          >
                          > -mark
                          > aka lowracer
                          >
                          >
                          > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                          > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                          >
                          >
                        • Mark Gessner
                          The secret guidelines now include: 1) I (the approver) personally don t like virtuals. 2) If you can at all possible place a small container with a logbook, do
                          Message 12 of 22 , Dec 31, 2002
                          • 0 Attachment
                            The secret guidelines now include:

                            1) I (the approver) personally don't like virtuals.
                            2) If you can at all possible place a small container with a logbook,
                            do so, because (see #1).
                            3) This just isn't unique enough, even though I (the approver) have
                            never even seen the place
                            4) The rules for virtuals are changing, we (the approving class) are
                            approving less of them because (see #1).
                            5) I (the approver) am letting this go to my head, I have the power, my
                            game: "Neener neener neener."

                            From now on all my caches are starting out as 50 cal ammo boxes with a
                            logbook inside, hidden in a state park. Immediately after approval,
                            some may secretly turn into virtuals and the coordinates may change
                            --well... more than a little bit. :-)

                            -mark
                            aka lowracer

                            On Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 01:50 AM, The Diver wrote:

                            > Mark,
                            >
                            > What were the reasons for "The Cheerful Dead" being rejected? Based on
                            > the so called "guidelines", I don't see why it should be rejected?
                            >
                            > alan
                            > aka The Diver
                            >
                            > On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 08:11, Mark Gessner wrote:
                            >> I've been thinking about geocaching.com lately. I've had a perfectly
                            >> legitimate virtual cache (GCB841, "The Cheerful Dead") on hold for a
                            >> week while trying to convince the 'approver' that it is legitimate.
                            >>
                            >> Brings me to the subject point: what happens when the owners of
                            >> geocaching.com decide to pick up their toys and go home? Seems like
                            >> the whole game is played on their board with their pieces, by their
                            >> rules, at their whim.
                            >>
                            >> I guess I'm wondering if there is some way to make this game 'open
                            >> source.' Instead of a central geocaching.com site, have a more
                            >> peer-to-peer arrangement with the cache pages spread out over many
                            >> unrelated servers with perhaps a search engine or yahoo-like portal
                            >> helping to tie them together.
                            >>
                            >> I would be a sad camper indeed if they ever shut down geocaching.com
                            >> (on purpose or by accident). Anyone backing up their cache pages to a
                            >> local machine?
                            >>
                            >> Could we recover if the powers that be got bored of geocaching.com and
                            >> shut 'er down?
                            >>
                            >> -mark
                            >> aka lowracer
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            >> CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >>
                            >>
                            >>
                            >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >>
                            >>
                            >
                            >
                            > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                            > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                            > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            -mark
                          • The Diver
                            Well then, I guess that I must be weird or something because I actually like virtuals. So I guess if your virtual is associated with a historical marker, then
                            Message 13 of 22 , Jan 1, 2003
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                              Well then, I guess that I must be weird or something because I actually
                              like virtuals. So I guess if your virtual is associated with a
                              historical marker, then you must attach a magnetic box on the back for a
                              log book? To me, virtuals are just points of interest. Take for instance
                              my virtual, GCA946 - Golden-cheeked Warbler, I could really care less
                              that someone emailed the answers or even emailed the correct answers. To
                              me, it's just a POI and I hope they enjoyed the location.

                              alan


                              On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 01:58, Mark Gessner wrote:
                              > The secret guidelines now include:
                              >
                              > 1) I (the approver) personally don't like virtuals.
                              > 2) If you can at all possible place a small container with a logbook,
                              > do so, because (see #1).
                              > 3) This just isn't unique enough, even though I (the approver) have
                              > never even seen the place
                              > 4) The rules for virtuals are changing, we (the approving class) are
                              > approving less of them because (see #1).
                              > 5) I (the approver) am letting this go to my head, I have the power, my
                              > game: "Neener neener neener."
                              >
                              > From now on all my caches are starting out as 50 cal ammo boxes with a
                              > logbook inside, hidden in a state park. Immediately after approval,
                              > some may secretly turn into virtuals and the coordinates may change
                              > --well... more than a little bit. :-)
                              >
                              > -mark
                              > aka lowracer
                              >
                              > On Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 01:50 AM, The Diver wrote:
                              >
                              > > Mark,
                              > >
                              > > What were the reasons for "The Cheerful Dead" being rejected? Based on
                              > > the so called "guidelines", I don't see why it should be rejected?
                              > >
                              > > alan
                              > > aka The Diver
                              > >
                              > > On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 08:11, Mark Gessner wrote:
                              > >> I've been thinking about geocaching.com lately. I've had a perfectly
                              > >> legitimate virtual cache (GCB841, "The Cheerful Dead") on hold for a
                              > >> week while trying to convince the 'approver' that it is legitimate.
                              > >>
                              > >> Brings me to the subject point: what happens when the owners of
                              > >> geocaching.com decide to pick up their toys and go home? Seems like
                              > >> the whole game is played on their board with their pieces, by their
                              > >> rules, at their whim.
                              > >>
                              > >> I guess I'm wondering if there is some way to make this game 'open
                              > >> source.' Instead of a central geocaching.com site, have a more
                              > >> peer-to-peer arrangement with the cache pages spread out over many
                              > >> unrelated servers with perhaps a search engine or yahoo-like portal
                              > >> helping to tie them together.
                              > >>
                              > >> I would be a sad camper indeed if they ever shut down geocaching.com
                              > >> (on purpose or by accident). Anyone backing up their cache pages to a
                              > >> local machine?
                              > >>
                              > >> Could we recover if the powers that be got bored of geocaching.com and
                              > >> shut 'er down?
                              > >>
                              > >> -mark
                              > >> aka lowracer
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > >> CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >>
                              > >>
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                              > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              > >
                              > >
                              > >
                              > -mark
                              >
                              >
                              > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                              > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                            • Eoghan <eoghan@sharawadgi.com>
                              Posted this yesterday but it never showed up in my email box, only the archives, so I m resending it since it seems to have gotten lost somewhere on the way
                              Message 14 of 22 , Jan 1, 2003
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                                Posted this yesterday but it never showed up in my email box, only
                                the archives, so I'm resending it since it seems to have gotten lost
                                somewhere on the way to distribution.

                                --- In CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com, "Eoghan <eoghan@s...>"
                                <eoghan@s...> wrote:

                                > > How long has thie discontent been brewing in the
                                > > geocaching ranks?
                                >
                                > The issue has been hot since the very beginning (about two and a
                                half
                                > years ago). The first person to suggest the idea of a GPS Stash and
                                > the first to hide one (Dave Ulmer) quit geocaching early on, in
                                large
                                > part because of the debate over a centralized vs. decentralized
                                > approach to cache listings.
                                >
                                > (He also had strong reservations about the environmental effects of
                                > the sport and was vocal about his disagreements with
                                geocaching.com.
                                > For a while the geocaching.com site gave a brief history of the
                                sport
                                > saying that a 'gentleman' in Washington placed the first cache, but
                                > now apparently to avoid the question of WHICH gentleman, the brief
                                > history paragraph has been completely removed from the site. I'm
                                not
                                > sure why else the history of the sport would be deemed unworthy of
                                a
                                > place on the FAQ.)
                                >
                                > The debate has also been a central sticking point between the
                                > groundspeak team and Ed Hall, the creator of the BEST geocaching
                                maps
                                > (at Buxley's Geocaching Waypoint,
                                http://www.brillig.com/geocaching/)
                                >
                                > The pro's and con's have been endlessly debated on every forum I've
                                > seen. If anyone wants to find out what each side has to say they
                                can,
                                > with a little work, dig it out of:
                                > the groundspeak forums
                                > (http://opentopic.groundspeak.com/0/OpenTopic),
                                > the old groundspeak forums archive
                                > (not all posts migrated to the new forums, not sure how to get to
                                > these anymore),
                                > the archive of the usenet group alt.rec.geocaching,
                                > the original email list "Global Positioning Stash Hunt" archives
                                > (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/gpsstash/),
                                > the Navicache forums
                                > (http://navicache.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard/ikonboard.cgi),
                                > or the Geocaching Worldwide Forums
                                > (http://www.geocachingworldwide.com/forum.asp)
                                >
                                > Questions about centralized vs. decentralized, open source vs.
                                > proprietary, single owner vs. organization, cache ownership vs.
                                cache
                                > stewardship, responsibilities of cache owners and listers,
                                > cohesiveness of the data set vs. stale data sets, longevity of data
                                > in the hands of a single entity, the legal status of databases,
                                > oversight of listings vs. unrestricted listings, single contact
                                point
                                > for land agencies vs. multiple groups, etc., et al, ad nauseum are
                                > all there.
                                >
                                > Those who've decided that they don't want anything do do with
                                > geocaching.com but still enjoy geocaching have typically gone to
                                > alt.rec.geocaching to discuss the sport, and post their caches to
                                one
                                > of the alternate listing sites. By doing so their caches still end
                                up
                                > on Buxley's maps and are available to most cachers.
                                >
                                > My opinions on the issues would probably quadruple (at least) the
                                > length of this post so I'll just stick a sock in it and keep them
                                to
                                > myself for now.
                                >
                                > Glad this conversation is still alive.
                                >
                                > Cache on!,
                                > -Eoghan
                              • Will Nienke <nienke@nienke.com>
                                Hi, As a newbie geocaching.com admin, I can tell you that there is no specific bias, posted or not, against virtuals. Hang in there folks! Its not as bad as it
                                Message 15 of 22 , Jan 6, 2003
                                • 0 Attachment
                                  Hi,
                                  As a newbie geocaching.com admin, I can tell you that there is no
                                  specific bias, posted or not, against virtuals.

                                  Hang in there folks! Its not as bad as it seems, and it IS just a
                                  game! :-)

                                  9Key

                                  --- In CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com, The Diver
                                  <thediver@a...> wrote:
                                  > Well then, I guess that I must be weird or something because I
                                  actually
                                  > like virtuals. So I guess if your virtual is associated with a
                                  > historical marker, then you must attach a magnetic box on the back
                                  for a
                                  > log book? To me, virtuals are just points of interest. Take for
                                  instance
                                  > my virtual, GCA946 - Golden-cheeked Warbler, I could really care
                                  less
                                  > that someone emailed the answers or even emailed the correct
                                  answers. To
                                  > me, it's just a POI and I hope they enjoyed the location.
                                  >
                                  > alan
                                  >
                                  >
                                  > On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 01:58, Mark Gessner wrote:
                                  > > The secret guidelines now include:
                                  > >
                                  > > 1) I (the approver) personally don't like virtuals.
                                  > > 2) If you can at all possible place a small container with a
                                  logbook,
                                  > > do so, because (see #1).
                                  > > 3) This just isn't unique enough, even though I (the approver)
                                  have
                                  > > never even seen the place
                                  > > 4) The rules for virtuals are changing, we (the approving class)
                                  are
                                  > > approving less of them because (see #1).
                                  > > 5) I (the approver) am letting this go to my head, I have the
                                  power, my
                                  > > game: "Neener neener neener."
                                  > >
                                  > > From now on all my caches are starting out as 50 cal ammo boxes
                                  with a
                                  > > logbook inside, hidden in a state park. Immediately after
                                  approval,
                                  > > some may secretly turn into virtuals and the coordinates may
                                  change
                                  > > --well... more than a little bit. :-)
                                  > >
                                  > > -mark
                                  > > aka lowracer
                                  > >
                                  > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 01:50 AM, The Diver wrote:
                                  > >
                                  > > > Mark,
                                  > > >
                                  > > > What were the reasons for "The Cheerful Dead" being rejected?
                                  Based on
                                  > > > the so called "guidelines", I don't see why it should be
                                  rejected?
                                  > > >
                                  > > > alan
                                  > > > aka The Diver
                                  > > >
                                  > > > On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 08:11, Mark Gessner wrote:
                                  > > >> I've been thinking about geocaching.com lately. I've had a
                                  perfectly
                                  > > >> legitimate virtual cache (GCB841, "The Cheerful Dead") on hold
                                  for a
                                  > > >> week while trying to convince the 'approver' that it is
                                  legitimate.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Brings me to the subject point: what happens when the owners of
                                  > > >> geocaching.com decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                                  Seems like
                                  > > >> the whole game is played on their board with their pieces, by
                                  their
                                  > > >> rules, at their whim.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> I guess I'm wondering if there is some way to make this
                                  game 'open
                                  > > >> source.' Instead of a central geocaching.com site, have a more
                                  > > >> peer-to-peer arrangement with the cache pages spread out over
                                  many
                                  > > >> unrelated servers with perhaps a search engine or yahoo-like
                                  portal
                                  > > >> helping to tie them together.
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> I would be a sad camper indeed if they ever shut down
                                  geocaching.com
                                  > > >> (on purpose or by accident). Anyone backing up their cache
                                  pages to a
                                  > > >> local machine?
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Could we recover if the powers that be got bored of
                                  geocaching.com and
                                  > > >> shut 'er down?
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> -mark
                                  > > >> aka lowracer
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > >> CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >> Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > > >> http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >>
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > >
                                  > > -mark
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
                                  > > CentralTexasGeocachers-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                  > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                  http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                  > >
                                  > >
                                • David Gahagan
                                  Will, glad to see you re on board and I know you ll always be fair. The problem seems centered around one paticular admin and virtual caches. If you ve been
                                  Message 16 of 22 , Jan 7, 2003
                                  • 0 Attachment
                                    Will, glad to see you're on board and I know you'll always be fair. The
                                    problem seems centered around one paticular admin and virtual caches. If
                                    you've been on this list long, or have read the archives, you know who I'm
                                    talking about. Quite frankly, I would like to see him gone for good. In my
                                    opinion, he brings nothing to the sport. I'll be over at navicache and
                                    austinexplorer's site from now on. I got nothing for my "Charter
                                    Membership" but grief and a few poorly constructed features.

                                    FireCacher


                                    ----- Original Message -----
                                    From: <nienke@...>
                                    To: <CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com>
                                    Sent: Monday, January 06, 2003 9:46 PM
                                    Subject: [CentralTexasGeocachers] Re: What's going to happen if they decide
                                    to pick up their toys and go home?


                                    > Hi,
                                    > As a newbie geocaching.com admin, I can tell you that there is no
                                    > specific bias, posted or not, against virtuals.
                                    >
                                    > Hang in there folks! Its not as bad as it seems, and it IS just a
                                    > game! :-)
                                    >
                                    > 9Key
                                    >
                                    > --- In CentralTexasGeocachers@yahoogroups.com, The Diver
                                    > <thediver@a...> wrote:
                                    > > Well then, I guess that I must be weird or something because I
                                    > actually
                                    > > like virtuals. So I guess if your virtual is associated with a
                                    > > historical marker, then you must attach a magnetic box on the back
                                    > for a
                                    > > log book? To me, virtuals are just points of interest. Take for
                                    > instance
                                    > > my virtual, GCA946 - Golden-cheeked Warbler, I could really care
                                    > less
                                    > > that someone emailed the answers or even emailed the correct
                                    > answers. To
                                    > > me, it's just a POI and I hope they enjoyed the location.
                                    > >
                                    > > alan
                                    > >
                                    > >
                                    > > On Wed, 2003-01-01 at 01:58, Mark Gessner wrote:
                                    > > > The secret guidelines now include:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > 1) I (the approver) personally don't like virtuals.
                                    > > > 2) If you can at all possible place a small container with a
                                    > logbook,
                                    > > > do so, because (see #1).
                                    > > > 3) This just isn't unique enough, even though I (the approver)
                                    > have
                                    > > > never even seen the place
                                    > > > 4) The rules for virtuals are changing, we (the approving class)
                                    > are
                                    > > > approving less of them because (see #1).
                                    > > > 5) I (the approver) am letting this go to my head, I have the
                                    > power, my
                                    > > > game: "Neener neener neener."
                                    > > >
                                    > > > From now on all my caches are starting out as 50 cal ammo boxes
                                    > with a
                                    > > > logbook inside, hidden in a state park. Immediately after
                                    > approval,
                                    > > > some may secretly turn into virtuals and the coordinates may
                                    > change
                                    > > > --well... more than a little bit. :-)
                                    > > >
                                    > > > -mark
                                    > > > aka lowracer
                                    > > >
                                    > > > On Wednesday, January 1, 2003, at 01:50 AM, The Diver wrote:
                                    > > >
                                    > > > > Mark,
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > What were the reasons for "The Cheerful Dead" being rejected?
                                    > Based on
                                    > > > > the so called "guidelines", I don't see why it should be
                                    > rejected?
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > alan
                                    > > > > aka The Diver
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > On Tue, 2002-12-31 at 08:11, Mark Gessner wrote:
                                    > > > >> I've been thinking about geocaching.com lately. I've had a
                                    > perfectly
                                    > > > >> legitimate virtual cache (GCB841, "The Cheerful Dead") on hold
                                    > for a
                                    > > > >> week while trying to convince the 'approver' that it is
                                    > legitimate.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> Brings me to the subject point: what happens when the owners of
                                    > > > >> geocaching.com decide to pick up their toys and go home?
                                    > Seems like
                                    > > > >> the whole game is played on their board with their pieces, by
                                    > their
                                    > > > >> rules, at their whim.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> I guess I'm wondering if there is some way to make this
                                    > game 'open
                                    > > > >> source.' Instead of a central geocaching.com site, have a more
                                    > > > >> peer-to-peer arrangement with the cache pages spread out over
                                    > many
                                    > > > >> unrelated servers with perhaps a search engine or yahoo-like
                                    > portal
                                    > > > >> helping to tie them together.
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> I would be a sad camper indeed if they ever shut down
                                    > geocaching.com
                                    > > > >> (on purpose or by accident). Anyone backing up their cache
                                    > pages to a
                                    > > > >> local machine?
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> Could we recover if the powers that be got bored of
                                    > geocaching.com and
                                    > > > >> shut 'er down?
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> -mark
                                    > > > >> aka lowracer
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >>
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                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >>
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to
                                    > > > > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > >
                                    > > > -mark
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to:
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                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
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                                    > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                                    > > >
                                    > > >
                                    >
                                    >
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