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global warming

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  • Simon Norton
    The George Monbiot article in today s (UK) Guardian provides evidence in support of the claim that we are on the brink of a mass extinction which could come
    Message 1 of 23 , Jul 1, 2003
      The George Monbiot article in today's (UK) Guardian provides evidence in support
      of the claim that we are on the brink of a mass extinction which could come
      about this century, i.e. within the lifetime of people already born.
      Simon Norton
    • De Clarke
      ... from the article, a perhaps unintentionally pointed passage: The world s surface came to be dominated by just one of these, an animal a bit like a pig. It
      Message 2 of 23 , Jul 1, 2003
        Simon Norton (norton@...) wrote:
        > The George Monbiot article in today's (UK) Guardian provides evidence in support
        > of the claim that we are on the brink of a mass extinction which could come
        > about this century, i.e. within the lifetime of people already born.

        from the article, a perhaps unintentionally pointed passage:

        The world's surface came to be dominated by just one of these,
        an animal a bit like a pig. It became ubiquitous because nothing
        else was left to compete with it or to prey upon it.

        I wonder if it drove an SUV...

        de

        --
        .............................................................................
        :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
        :Mail: de@... | :
        :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins :
        :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:
      • De Clarke
        http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=danews.story&STORY=/www/story/07-01-2003/0001974731&EDATE=TUE+Jul+01+2003,+08:31+AM MERIDEN, Conn., July 1
        Message 3 of 23 , Jul 1, 2003
          http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=danews.story&STORY=/www/story/07-01-2003/0001974731&EDATE=TUE+Jul+01+2003,+08:31+AM

          MERIDEN, Conn., July 1 /PRNewswire/ -- According to an
          analysis by Response Insurance of their national
          driving survey, people who use cell phones when driving
          are more likely to be distracted from the road even
          when they are not talking on a phone. The results
          indicate there may be a "distracted-driver
          personality" type behind the wheel.

          [more]

          I'm sure Pfizer will have a designer pharma product out any
          day now to combat this newly minted pathology :-)

          de

          .............................................................................
          :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
          :Mail: de@... | :
          :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins :
          :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:
        • RIIN GILL
          ... I see people walking all over campus with cell phones glued to their heads, yammering non-stop. They can t walk from Point A to Point B without talking on
          Message 4 of 23 , Jul 1, 2003
            On Tue, 1 Jul 2003, De Clarke wrote:

            >
            > http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=danews.story&STORY=/www/story/07-01-2003/0001974731&EDATE=TUE+Jul+01+2003,+08:31+AM
            >
            > MERIDEN, Conn., July 1 /PRNewswire/ -- According to an
            > analysis by Response Insurance of their national
            > driving survey, people who use cell phones when driving
            > are more likely to be distracted from the road even
            > when they are not talking on a phone. The results
            > indicate there may be a "distracted-driver
            > personality" type behind the wheel.
            >
            > [more]
            >
            > I'm sure Pfizer will have a designer pharma product out any
            > day now to combat this newly minted pathology :-)

            I see people walking all over campus with cell phones glued to their
            heads, yammering non-stop. They can't walk from Point A to Point B
            without talking on the phone the whole way. If they take the bus
            somewhere, they talk the whole time they're waiting for the bus, while
            they're stepping onto the bus, during the whole bus ride, and while they
            step off the bus. I don't think they know how to be alone with their own
            thoughts. Maybe the idea of being alone with their own thoughts is too
            frightening. They have to fill the void. I don't know. I *need* time to
            be alone with my thoughts. I need silence.

            Two of the things that clear my head the best are bicycling and gardening.
            They both can put me into a kind of trance at times. I've seen a few
            cyclists around town talking on cell phones while riding. I so wanted to
            scream "what the hell are you doing?!" but I didn't.

            I've seen my neighbor across the street talking on her cordless phone
            while gardening. All I could think was, ok, we're looking to get very
            different things out of gardening...

            ***********************************************************
            Riin Gill
            Interlibrary Loan 734-615-6168
            Taubman Medical Library fax 734-763-1473
            University of Michigan
            ***********************************************************
            If you were riding your bike, you'd be having fun by now.
          • Simon Norton
            The current hot weather in the UK made me think of the myth of hell fire, alias infernal combustion. The main difference from the myth is that the global
            Message 5 of 23 , Aug 8, 2003
              The current hot weather in the UK made me think of the myth of hell fire, alias
              infernal combustion.

              The main difference from the myth is that the global warmers not only experience
              the heat themselves, they also force it on the rest of us.

              In fact they are less likely to suffer than the rest of us because they are more
              likely to have air conditioning available. It's like the proverbial rhyme:

              The rain it falls upon the just, and also on the unjust fella
              But chiefly on the just, because the unjust steals the just's umbrella.

              The following letter was written by Judith Hanna, a London transport campaigner,
              to Metro, a free newspaper distributed on public transport in the UK, and
              published on Wed 6 Aug:

              Lunatic Advice: Warm weather arrives, and the sunshine turns exhaust fumes into
              low level ozone, a corrosive chemical that stings the eyes and attacks the
              lungs. So the Government issues a health warning. Does it ask responsible car
              owners to avoid driving ? No, instead it tells everyone to shut themselves
              indoors and avoid outdoor exercise. Are the lunatics running the asylum ?

              The evening news that day included a report from scientists that global warming
              wasn't a threat, it was a fact, and we needed to learn to adapt to it as it is
              now too late to do more than mitigate it. The question is, how will the word
              "adapt" be interpreted ? One possibility is that it should mean retreat into
              air conditioned cars, downgrading of the railways (which had extensive delays
              because of track buckling due to the heat, and would also be in line for
              flooding when sea level rises), and fewer people walking and cycling. Or it
              could mean providing free drinking water in public places which don't close at
              5.30 (as the public toilets do in Ludlow, a town popular with visitors) when the
              temperature is barely down from its peak, ensuring that people had ready access
              to water which is safe for informal swimming (instead of repeatedly issuing
              warnings to people to stay away from rivers and lakes), and creating a social
              climate where people don't feel obliged to swathe themselves in suits for events
              such as funerals (the news showed the Deputy Prime Minister attending a funeral
              that day wearing a suit).

              Simon Norton
            • De Clarke
              ... even the NYT is catching on http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0808-05.htm ... it s been a while since I heard that one. cf the greater
              Message 6 of 23 , Aug 8, 2003
                Simon Norton (norton@...) wrote:
                > The current hot weather in the UK made me think of the myth of hell fire, alias
                > infernal combustion.

                :-)

                > The main difference from the myth is that the global warmers not only experience
                > the heat themselves, they also force it on the rest of us.

                even the NYT is catching on

                http://www.commondreams.org/views03/0808-05.htm

                > The rain it falls upon the just, and also on the unjust fella
                > But chiefly on the just, because the unjust steals the just's umbrella.

                <big grin> it's been a while since I heard that one.

                cf the greater climatic damage done to e.g. Africa, and to tiny Pacific island
                nations, than (so far) to the N hemisphere "first world" -- though o.c. the
                firstworlders are the ones reaping the lion's share of benefits from the
                fossil fuel extravaganza of the last century.

                > Lunatic Advice: Warm weather arrives, and the sunshine turns exhaust fumes into
                > low level ozone, a corrosive chemical that stings the eyes and attacks the
                > lungs. So the Government issues a health warning. Does it ask responsible car
                > owners to avoid driving ? No, instead it tells everyone to shut themselves
                > indoors and avoid outdoor exercise. Are the lunatics running the asylum ?

                but of course. this is the same Gummint thinking that tells us, if people
                drive fast and dangerously on our roads, so that our kids are at risk on
                the street, we should just lock up our kids.

                (sigh) there are always two ways to approach a problem -- one is to slap
                a bandaid or some fresh paint over the damage and stroll away whistling
                and pretending nothing happened. this seems to be the way that human
                nature prefers :-) the other, so much harder, is to dig down to the
                root and really address the problem -- structurally, systematically,
                with attention to causation and responsibility... (yikes, political
                suicide! elected officialdom flees gibbering: exeunt, pursued by a bear)

                I'm sure several mfrg/mktg sectors are delighted that global warming will
                produce a boom in sales of umbrellas, sunscreen, soft drinks, sun hats,
                summer clothing, refrigeration... that's what most people man by "adapt":
                Buy More Stuff.

                ...do you ever find yourself, while watching some scary movie or other,
                muttering under your breath, "no, stupid, *don't* go into that dark,
                abandoned warehouse. no, *don't* open that door. oh no, *don't* go
                down those dim and rusty stairs, and *don't* drop the bloody flashlight
                and break it! trust me, I've seen a lot of these movies, I know the
                rules... oh blast, you dropped the flashlight. now you're for it."

                lately I seem to feel like this all the time :-) sure wish there were a
                remote control.

                de

                --
                .............................................................................
                :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
                :Mail: de@... | :
                :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins :
                :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:
              • De Clarke
                ... a phrase has just come to me that sums up the Buy More Bandaids approach to serious problems (or to any problem). the phrase is lucratively correct. a
                Message 7 of 23 , Aug 8, 2003
                  Simon Norton (norton@...) wrote:
                  >
                  > In fact they are less likely to suffer than the rest of us because they are more
                  > likely to have air conditioning available. It's like the proverbial rhyme:

                  a phrase has just come to me that sums up the "Buy More Bandaids" approach
                  to serious problems (or to any problem). the phrase is "lucratively correct."

                  a solution is only "lucratively correct" if someone, somewhere can make
                  a quick buck off of it. a solution is "lucratively incorrect," and will
                  therefore never be taken seriously by Experts, mainstream media, Gummint,
                  etc., if it means living more simply, spending less, simplifying any
                  expensive system, reducing the number of middlemen, investing in the commons,
                  etc.

                  the Lucratively Correct solution to global warming is selling more air
                  conditioners and painting parking lots white.

                  the Lucratively Incorrect solution is burning less fossil fuel.

                  the Lucratively Correct solution to traffic jams is to build more and
                  wider roads.

                  the Lucratively Incorrect solution is to drive less.

                  I'm sure several more examples will suggest themselves :-)

                  de

                  --
                  .............................................................................
                  :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
                  :Mail: de@... | :
                  :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins :
                  :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:
                • Steven Schoeffler
                  I studied this in artificial intelligence, and I didn t get it 100%, so don t quote me exactly but.... The simplest solution search for a program is the
                  Message 8 of 23 , Aug 9, 2003
                    I studied this in artificial intelligence, and I didn't get it 100%, so
                    don't quote me exactly but....

                    The simplest solution search for a program is the so-called greedy search.
                    Thus, for navigation from one city to another by means of intermediate legs,
                    the program with inferior planning will take the leg that initially brings
                    it closest to the destination regardless of the many detours and delays that
                    will crop up later on that route, rather than the other option which doesn't
                    get so close on the initial leg but is more direct on later legs.

                    In human terms, in the present example, this looks like this: problem
                    presents itself, most direct (lowest thought processing) route to a solution
                    is? build more lanes, drill more oil, etc. etc. No need to take a step back
                    and look at the larger picture that might offer a different solution.

                    Also known as the local maximum in hill-climbing problems.

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: "De Clarke" <de@...>
                    To: <CarFree@yahoogroups.com>
                    Sent: Saturday, August 09, 2003 1:30 AM
                    Subject: Re: [CF] global warming


                    > Simon Norton (norton@...) wrote:
                    > >
                    > > In fact they are less likely to suffer than the rest of us because they
                    are more
                    > > likely to have air conditioning available. It's like the proverbial
                    rhyme:
                    >
                    > a phrase has just come to me that sums up the "Buy More Bandaids" approach
                    > to serious problems (or to any problem). the phrase is "lucratively
                    correct."
                    >
                    > a solution is only "lucratively correct" if someone, somewhere can make
                    > a quick buck off of it. a solution is "lucratively incorrect," and will
                    > therefore never be taken seriously by Experts, mainstream media, Gummint,
                    > etc., if it means living more simply, spending less, simplifying any
                    > expensive system, reducing the number of middlemen, investing in the
                    commons,
                    > etc.
                    >
                    > the Lucratively Correct solution to global warming is selling more air
                    > conditioners and painting parking lots white.
                    >
                    > the Lucratively Incorrect solution is burning less fossil fuel.
                    >
                    > the Lucratively Correct solution to traffic jams is to build more and
                    > wider roads.
                    >
                    > the Lucratively Incorrect solution is to drive less.
                    >
                    > I'm sure several more examples will suggest themselves :-)
                    >
                    > de
                    >
                    > --
                    >
                    ............................................................................
                    .
                    > :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory,
                    UCSC:
                    > :Mail: de@... |
                    :
                    > :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins
                    :
                    > :1024D/B9C9E76E F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9
                    E76E:
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    > To change your settings (such as receiving CarFree in digest form or read
                    the archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarFree
                    > To Unsubscribe by email; CarFree-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                    > For problems email; CarFree-owners@yahoogroups.com
                    >
                    >
                    > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                    >
                    >
                    >
                    >
                  • tomfrostjr
                    ... approach ... lucratively correct. ... make ... will ... Gummint, ... the commons, ... air ... and ... TF: Oh boy, this is rich! The Lucratively Correct
                    Message 9 of 23 , Aug 9, 2003
                      --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, De Clarke <de@u...> wrote:
                      > a phrase has just come to me that sums up the "Buy More Bandaids"
                      approach
                      > to serious problems (or to any problem). the phrase is
                      "lucratively correct."
                      >
                      > a solution is only "lucratively correct" if someone, somewhere can
                      make
                      > a quick buck off of it. a solution is "lucratively incorrect," and
                      will
                      > therefore never be taken seriously by Experts, mainstream media,
                      Gummint,
                      > etc., if it means living more simply, spending less, simplifying any
                      > expensive system, reducing the number of middlemen, investing in
                      the commons,
                      > etc.
                      >
                      > the Lucratively Correct solution to global warming is selling more
                      air
                      > conditioners and painting parking lots white.
                      >
                      > the Lucratively Incorrect solution is burning less fossil fuel.
                      >
                      > the Lucratively Correct solution to traffic jams is to build more
                      and
                      > wider roads.
                      >
                      > the Lucratively Incorrect solution is to drive less.
                      >
                      > I'm sure several more examples will suggest themselves :-)


                      TF: Oh boy, this is rich!

                      The Lucratively Correct way of cycling advocacy is to sell more bikes
                      (complete with Thule car-top racks), pay a $50,000. salary to a
                      "bicycle planner", and make sure he or she also has another
                      $1,000,000. per town for line paint, asphalt and bigoted signs.

                      The Lucratively Incorrect way is to spend five cents per cyclist
                      distributing copies of the Bicyclists' Rights Triad
                      http://www.newmilfordbike.com/Triad.htm

                      The Lucratively Moderate way is to spend I guess $50. per traffic
                      light to properly adjust the detector loop to detect bikes, $25. per
                      town engineer for a copy of Bicycle Transportation by John Forester,
                      $25. per cyclist for a copy of Effective Cycling by John Forester,
                      and $100. per school to train the Gym teacher to be an Effective
                      Cycling Instructor.


                      - Tom Frost Jr., Editor of the Bicyclists' Rights Triad.
                    • Simon Norton
                      Would the global warming = hell fire analogy appeal to the What would Jesus Drive brigade ? Anyone know them well enough to suggest it to them ? Simon Norton
                      Message 10 of 23 , Aug 11, 2003
                        Would the global warming = hell fire analogy appeal to the What would Jesus
                        Drive brigade ? Anyone know them well enough to suggest it to them ?
                        Simon Norton
                      • JamesJFitz@Juno.com
                        ... Jesus ... THEY SAY WHATEVER DOESN T KILL YOU MAKES YOU STRONGER ...BUT THEY NEVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT KILLS YOU Mister Boffo by Joe
                        Message 11 of 23 , Aug 11, 2003
                          Simon Norton writes:

                          > Would the global warming = hell fire analogy appeal to the What would
                          Jesus
                          > Drive brigade ? Anyone know them well enough to suggest it to them?
                          > Simon Norton
                          >

                          THEY SAY "WHATEVER DOESN'T KILL YOU MAKES YOU STRONGER"...BUT THEY
                          NEVER SAY ANYTHING ABOUT WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT KILLS YOU

                          Mister Boffo by Joe Martin 7-18-03

                          ________________________________________________________________
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                        • Simon Norton
                          Reference to population in Lenard s last message reminds me of the space/population debate we had some time ago. I don t want to reopen that debate, but I
                          Message 12 of 23 , Sep 4 2:13 PM
                            Reference to population in Lenard's last message reminds me of the
                            space/population debate we had some time ago. I don't want to reopen that
                            debate, but I would like to refer to a speculation in Arthur Clarke's book
                            "The Fountains of Paradise" that the Maldivian island of Gan might be the 22nd
                            century's most valuable piece of real estate, because it would be the most
                            suitable earth terminal for a space elevator, which would enable people and
                            goods to get to/from space without the enormous energy expenditure of today's
                            rockets. But not if the island has been submerged by sea level rise by then...

                            Simon Norton
                          • Steven Schoeffler
                            Space elevator? I think it was Japan that reinforced a tiny rock way out in the Pacific to keep it from being lost to the ocean, in order to ensure its fishing
                            Message 13 of 23 , Sep 4 4:08 PM
                              Space elevator?

                              I think it was Japan that reinforced a tiny rock way out in the Pacific to
                              keep it from being lost to the ocean, in order to ensure its fishing rights
                              in a 200-mile (I think) radius.

                              Steve


                              ----- Original Message -----
                              From: "Simon Norton" <norton@...>
                              To: <carfree@yahoogroups.com>
                              Sent: Thursday, September 04, 2003 4:13 PM
                              Subject: [CF] global warming


                              > Reference to population in Lenard's last message reminds me of the
                              > space/population debate we had some time ago. I don't want to reopen that
                              > debate, but I would like to refer to a speculation in Arthur Clarke's book
                              > "The Fountains of Paradise" that the Maldivian island of Gan might be the
                              22nd
                              > century's most valuable piece of real estate, because it would be the most
                              > suitable earth terminal for a space elevator, which would enable people
                              and
                              > goods to get to/from space without the enormous energy expenditure of
                              today's
                              > rockets. But not if the island has been submerged by sea level rise by
                              then...
                              >
                              > Simon Norton
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              > To change your settings (such as receiving CarFree in digest form or read
                              the archive: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarFree
                              > To Unsubscribe by email; CarFree-unsubscribe@yahoogroups.com
                              > For problems email; CarFree-owners@yahoogroups.com
                              >
                              >
                              > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
                              >
                              >
                              >
                              >
                            • tomfrostjr
                              ... reopen that ... Clarke s book ... be the 22nd ... the most ... people and ... of today s ... by then... TF: I thought of the concept of a space elevator
                              Message 14 of 23 , Sep 4 5:27 PM
                                --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, Simon Norton <norton@m...> wrote:
                                > Reference to population in Lenard's last message reminds me of the
                                > space/population debate we had some time ago. I don't want to
                                reopen that
                                > debate, but I would like to refer to a speculation in Arthur
                                Clarke's book
                                > "The Fountains of Paradise" that the Maldivian island of Gan might
                                be the 22nd
                                > century's most valuable piece of real estate, because it would be
                                the most
                                > suitable earth terminal for a space elevator, which would enable
                                people and
                                > goods to get to/from space without the enormous energy expenditure
                                of today's
                                > rockets. But not if the island has been submerged by sea level rise
                                by then...


                                TF: I thought of the concept of a space elevator many years ago and
                                often egotistically fancied myself building one. But more recently, I
                                learned that other people will beat me to it: Check out
                                groups.yahoo.com/group/Space-Elevator


                                - Tom Frost Jr., who's forgotten the many calculations he made about
                                how long it'd take to pedal up it.
                              • De Clarke
                                Segways on sidewalks wasn t enough, now they want sports cars on rivers and lakes? http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_815852.html The ultimate boy s toy -
                                Message 15 of 23 , Sep 4 7:09 PM
                                  Segways on sidewalks wasn't enough, now they want sports
                                  cars on rivers and lakes?

                                  http://www.ananova.com/news/story/sm_815852.html

                                  The ultimate "boy's toy" - a high-speed land and water
                                  vehicle - has been launched on the River Thames.

                                  The amphibious vehicle is designed to reach speeds of
                                  100mph on land and over 30mph on water and can switch
                                  between the two surfaces at the switch of a button...

                                  so now we will have rich yobs using rivers as alternative
                                  roadways? if you've ever been on a crowded waterway in a small
                                  craft you will know how terrifying the idea is of some
                                  aggressive spoilt brat roaring around at 30 mph. 10 kts is an
                                  aggressive speed on the water. 30 is totally reckless. the
                                  wake alone could capsize smaller craft.

                                  the invasion of all possible public spaces by the automobile:
                                  it just never stops.

                                  de

                                  .............................................................................
                                  :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
                                  :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid :
                                  :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut :
                                  :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:
                                • De Clarke
                                  http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=342515&group=webcast Indymedia op/ed debunks media-stoked public ire about record gas prices: Gasoline prices
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Sep 4 7:16 PM
                                    http://www.indymedia.org/front.php3?article_id=342515&group=webcast

                                    Indymedia op/ed debunks media-stoked public ire about "record"
                                    gas prices:

                                    Gasoline prices have recently hit almost $2.00 per
                                    gallon across the United States. For a consumer culture
                                    that drives gas guzzling sport utility vehicles (SUVs),
                                    that $2.00 price tag makes many people believe that
                                    prices are at an all-time high. These recent price
                                    spikes have led to renewed calls calls for government
                                    regulation.

                                    While the mass media is out to tell you the same story
                                    over and over, that gas prices are too high --
                                    especially for labor day when Americans traditionally
                                    set the yearly record for travel by car -- the reality
                                    is that gas prices are nowhere near record levels. When
                                    adjusted for inflation, 1981 set the most recent record
                                    at $1.35 which is $2.69 adjusted to year 2000 prices
                                    (the most recent year for which numbers are easily
                                    available). In fact, the all-time high was set in 1918,
                                    which would be $3.00 per gallon in 2000 prices, and
                                    prices have been falling ever-since. For the "official"
                                    industry numbers visit the pro-Petrol American
                                    Petroleum Institute, and download this PDF.

                                    These falling prices are a direct result of social
                                    subsidization of the oil industry and they keep people
                                    in the U.S. in a state of denial about the true costs
                                    of gasoline. These currently "high" prices don't even
                                    begin to address the real price of gasoline, which
                                    according to a report by the International Center for
                                    Technology Assessment, could be as high as $15 per
                                    gallon.... [more]

                                    de

                                    .............................................................................
                                    :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
                                    :Mail: de@... | Your planet's immune system is trying to get rid :
                                    :Web: www.ucolick.org | of you. --Kurt Vonnegut :
                                    :1024D/B9C9E76E | F892 5F17 8E0A F095 05CD EE8B D169 EDAA B9C9 E76E:
                                  • Simon Norton
                                    The biggest disservice which contrarians are doing in the global warming debate is to confuse the burden of proof. I think that even those who believe that
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Dec 23, 2004
                                      The biggest disservice which contrarians are doing in the global warming debate
                                      is to confuse the burden of proof.

                                      I think that even those who believe that they may be right should admit that
                                      catastrophic global warming is a possibility -- and if so, we need to take
                                      action before it is on us (if it isn't already too late).

                                      In some countries denial of the Nazi Holocaust is a crime. However, this doesn't
                                      really do more harm than offend those who have associations with its victims.
                                      But denial of global warming -- our future holocaust -- does real harm.

                                      This doesn't mean I want to stifle debate -- but, with mainstream scientists
                                      having presented a prima facie case, it is up to the contrarians to present
                                      absolute proof that it won't happen before they campaign against the
                                      preventative action we need to take.

                                      Simon Norton
                                    • Jym Dyer
                                      ... =v= Indeed, though of course there are well-funded contrarians devoted to misplacing the burden of proof through nothing but sheer repetition. ... =v= Also
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Dec 23, 2004
                                        > The biggest disservice which contrarians are doing in the
                                        > global warming debate is to confuse the burden of proof.

                                        =v= Indeed, though of course there are well-funded contrarians
                                        devoted to misplacing the burden of proof through nothing but
                                        sheer repetition.

                                        > ... with mainstream scientists having presented a prima facie
                                        > case, it is up to the contrarians to present absolute proof
                                        > that it won't happen before they campaign against the
                                        > preventative action we need to take.

                                        =v= Also agreed, and again, scientists involved in climatology
                                        and relevant fields have reached this point more than once and
                                        have had to contend with the Big Lie tactics.
                                        <_Jym_>
                                      • Steven Schoeffler
                                        Global warming: passing the tipping point Our special investigation reveals that critical rise in world temperatures is now unavoidable By Michael McCarthy,
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Feb 11, 2006
                                          Global warming: passing the 'tipping point'
                                          Our special investigation reveals that critical rise in world temperatures
                                          is now unavoidable
                                          By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
                                          Published: 11 February 2006

                                          A crucial global warming "tipping point" for the Earth, highlighted only
                                          last week by the British Government, has already been passed, with
                                          devastating consequences.

                                          Research commissioned by The Independent reveals that the accumulation of
                                          greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has now crossed a threshold, set down by
                                          scientists from around the world at a conference in Britain last year,
                                          beyond which really dangerous climate change is likely to be unstoppable. .
                                          . .

                                          http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article344690.ece
                                        • Bling Williams
                                          Sometimes you wonder if there s any point trying now. Shyrley Steven Schoeffler wrote: Global warming: passing the tipping point Our
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Feb 12, 2006
                                            Sometimes you wonder if there's any point trying now.

                                            Shyrley

                                            Steven Schoeffler <steve@...> wrote:
                                            Global warming: passing the 'tipping point'
                                            Our special investigation reveals that critical rise in world temperatures
                                            is now unavoidable
                                            By Michael McCarthy, Environment Editor
                                            Published: 11 February 2006

                                            A crucial global warming "tipping point" for the Earth, highlighted only
                                            last week by the British Government, has already been passed, with
                                            devastating consequences.

                                            Research commissioned by The Independent reveals that the accumulation of
                                            greenhouse gases in the atmosphere has now crossed a threshold, set down by
                                            scientists from around the world at a conference in Britain last year,
                                            beyond which really dangerous climate change is likely to be unstoppable. .
                                            . .

                                            http://news.independent.co.uk/environment/article344690.ece






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                                          • Simon Norton
                                            Shyrley, that s what they want you to think (that there s no point in trying because it s already too late). I recommend that members of this group should
                                            Message 21 of 23 , Feb 12, 2006
                                              Shyrley, that's what they want you to think (that there's no point in trying
                                              because it's already too late).

                                              I recommend that members of this group should re-read Ben Elton's "Stark", where
                                              the super-rich deliberately confuse the issues and allow the world to destroy
                                              itself in order to maintain "business as usual" for long enough to accumulate
                                              the money to fit out a spaceship to escape from it. I remember reading that the
                                              author said something like "this book expresses how I see the world".

                                              I suspect that the kind of mentality which rules the super-rich is such that
                                              they would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven. If we move away from
                                              business as usual towards the type of policy that might save the world, then
                                              they would no longer be on top. Whereas if they upset the ecological balance in
                                              such a way that only a small proportion of people now on earth can survive, you
                                              can bet that they will ensure that they are among the few and will rule over the
                                              remnants of humanity. In other words, it is in their perceived interest to allow
                                              the world to go to hell.

                                              Simon Norton
                                            • Bling Williams
                                              My daughter, who is 13, and I had a discussion about the global warming article. She seemed resigned and said it would be exciting like Tank Girl and way
                                              Message 22 of 23 , Feb 12, 2006
                                                My daughter, who is 13, and I had a discussion about the global warming article. She seemed resigned and said it would be exciting like Tank Girl and way better than her boring life. Of course in her scenario, she hasn't straved to death or died in a nuclear war or been enslaved by the elite.
                                                Sigh

                                                Shyrley

                                                Simon Norton <S.Norton@...> wrote:
                                                Shyrley, that's what they want you to think (that there's no point in trying
                                                because it's already too late).

                                                I recommend that members of this group should re-read Ben Elton's "Stark", where
                                                the super-rich deliberately confuse the issues and allow the world to destroy
                                                itself in order to maintain "business as usual" for long enough to accumulate
                                                the money to fit out a spaceship to escape from it. I remember reading that the
                                                author said something like "this book expresses how I see the world".

                                                I suspect that the kind of mentality which rules the super-rich is such that
                                                they would rather reign in hell than serve in heaven. If we move away from
                                                business as usual towards the type of policy that might save the world, then
                                                they would no longer be on top. Whereas if they upset the ecological balance in
                                                such a way that only a small proportion of people now on earth can survive, you
                                                can bet that they will ensure that they are among the few and will rule over the
                                                remnants of humanity. In other words, it is in their perceived interest to allow
                                                the world to go to hell.

                                                Simon Norton



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                                              • Simon Norton
                                                Well, Shyrley, if it s available anywhere I suggest you buy Stark for your daughter. Incidentally I ve often been thankful that I escaped World War II and
                                                Message 23 of 23 , Feb 12, 2006
                                                  Well, Shyrley, if it's available anywhere I suggest you buy "Stark" for your
                                                  daughter.

                                                  Incidentally I've often been thankful that I escaped World War II and military
                                                  service; this probably offset what I've lost through increasing car domination.
                                                  Indeed maybe I was born at the best possible time, late enough to avoid wars and
                                                  early enough to avoid environmental destruction. But if we'd done things
                                                  properly, this window of opportunity would not be about to close, AND I'd have
                                                  escaped car domination.

                                                  Simon Norton
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