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Re: [CarFree] getting around in snow

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  • Mark Jaroski
    ... I have to ask how far north or south in Illinois? It makes a big big difference. In Southern Ill. you ll hardly ever have to deal with significant snow,
    Message 1 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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      michelle@... wrote:
      > I have just moved to a small town in Illinois, with no bus service
      > on Sundays. I will occasionally need to travel approx. 7 miles
      > (each way), and winter is just around the corner...
      >
      > Any suggestions on a good carfree way to travel that distance in
      > snow? (Also with having to carry a backpack or musical
      > instrument on my back)?

      I have to ask how far north or south in Illinois? It makes
      a big big difference.

      In Southern Ill. you'll hardly ever have to deal with
      significant snow, but will instead have ice on the road,
      which can be very dangerous.

      In the north you'll be riding through snow which actually
      makes very nice surface to ride on.

      Either way your main problem is not the road surface, but
      the wind. If you are in an open area with few buildings or
      trees you will need a ski mask, or better a head stocking
      (availible at most bike shops) which fits under your helmet.
      If you wear glasses try to come up with an arraingment that
      keeps your breath from fogging them. It can be done, but I
      don't really know how to explain it.

      I used to wear an extreme arctic wear parka durning January
      and February, but I'd find myself opening the front a bit to
      let some of the cold air in after riding a quarter mile or
      so. Still, it's good to have if you wind up walking a bit
      after parking the bike.

      Get *several* pair of good gloves. You don't want to be
      stuck without them if you misplace one.

      Mark

      --
      -- mark at geekhive dot net
      ==================================================================
    • David Hansen
      ... Occasionally is a problem. If you wanted to do it regularly then the obvious solution is a transporter bike, such as http://www.nihola.dk. Trikes are much
      Message 2 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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        On 30 Sep 2001 at 20:07, michelle@... wrote:

        > I will occasionally need to travel approx. 7 miles (each
        > way), and winter is just around the corner...
        >
        > Any suggestions on a good carfree way to travel that distance in snow?
        > (Also with having to carry a backpack or musical instrument on my
        > back)?

        Occasionally is a problem. If you wanted to do it regularly then the obvious solution is a
        transporter bike, such as http://www.nihola.dk Trikes are much better in snow than bikes.

        For an occasional journey such a bike might be an expensive luxury. However, it may be that you
        end up using it all the time, for shopping and the like. It will not be suitable for very hilly areas and
        you will need somewhere to store it.

        Why carry things on yor back when they can be carried in the barrel of a Nihola?


        --
        David Hansen | davidh@... | PGP email preferred
        Edinburgh | CI$ number 100024,3247 | key number F566DA0E
        If I revoke this key, the only circumstance in which I will not be
        prepared to explain my reasons for doing so will be when UK
        government authorities have stipulated that providing such an
        explanation would be unlawful. See RIP Act 2000.
      • Nancy G.
        Cross country skiing can be a good alternative in snowy weather, especially if it is a hilly area and after a big snow. -Nan Minneapolis, Minnesota ...
        Message 3 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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          Cross country skiing can be a good alternative in
          snowy weather, especially if it is a hilly area and
          after a big snow.
          -Nan
          Minneapolis, Minnesota
          --- michelle@... wrote:
          > I have just moved to a small town in Illinois, with
          > no bus service
          > on Sundays. I will occasionally need to travel
          > approx. 7 miles
          > (each way), and winter is just around the corner...
          >
          > Any suggestions on a good carfree way to travel that
          > distance in
          > snow? (Also with having to carry a backpack or
          > musical
          > instrument on my back)?
          >
          > Thanks!
          > Michelle
          >
          >


          __________________________________________________
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        • Bill Volk
          ... Depending on your finanical resources ... you might want to consider a velomobile (human powered enclosed trike or 4 wheeler). http://www.leitra.dk/ Sure
          Message 4 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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            Michelle asks:

            >I have just moved to a small town in Illinois, with no bus service
            >on Sundays. I will occasionally need to travel approx. 7 miles
            >(each way), and winter is just around the corner...

            >Any suggestions on a good carfree way to travel that distance in
            >snow?

            Depending on your finanical resources ... you might want to consider a
            'velomobile' (human powered enclosed trike or 4 wheeler).

            http://www.leitra.dk/

            Sure it's expensive, but it's cheaper than a car!

            Or you could build your own ;-)

            Bill
          • De Clarke
            ... Looks interesting but I find the site completely dysfunctional -- menu items do nothing. presumably it is complete javascripted and inaccessible
            Message 5 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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              >>
              >> Occasionally is a problem. If you wanted to do it regularly then the obvious solution is a
              >> transporter bike, such as http://www.nihola.dk Trikes are much better in snow than bikes.
              >>

              Looks interesting but I find the site completely
              dysfunctional -- menu items do nothing. presumably
              it is complete javascripted and inaccessible otherwise?
              pity.

              de


              .............................................................................
              :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
              :Mail: de@... | :
              :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins :
            • De Clarke
              http://www.truestupidity.com/driving_school.htm could be urban legends, but it s interesting that this kind of thinking is prevalent enough to become a genre
              Message 6 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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                http://www.truestupidity.com/driving_school.htm

                could be urban legends, but it's interesting that this
                kind of thinking is prevalent enough to become a genre
                of humour.

                -------------------

                And for the Department of Life's Little Ironies:

                This weekend there was a triathlon in my area -- Sunday.

                It was a bike/run/swim event. Roads were closed. My
                neighbourhood was, guess what, parked up to the gills with
                people who (a) came to see the event, (b) participated in
                the event. The streets were swarming with cyclists when
                I set out on my own errands for the day -- but they were
                all going back to their cars, trucks, and SUVs to load
                their very expensive racing bikes back on the racks and
                drive who-knows-how-many miles home.

                This "cycling" event tripled or quadrupled the number of
                cars in my neighbourhood for the day.

                After I negotiated the huge traffic jam generated by people
                leaving as the event had terminated, I was taking a teeny
                slice of the vehicle lane on a stretch of road where the
                so-called bike lane has been soft-patched into a torture
                test for suspension fames, *and* is full of smashed liquor
                bottles from motorist tailgate parties. A large white
                van passed me with only inches to spare, and an officious
                young man said (civilly but reprovingly), "There is a bike
                lane right over there, you know."

                With a struggle I matched his semi-polite tone and said,
                "Yes, thank you, I had noticed. And it's full of broken
                glass."

                "Oh. Ummm, oh, OK, sorry," he said, and the van roared off
                -- with three bikes or more in the back, and occupied by
                sweaty, happy recent triathletes.

                Interesting that "cyclists" once they get into their cars
                literally *become* drivers, and start dissing other cyclists.
                If he had been on his bike he would have seen the glitter
                of shattered glass just jumping out at him in the bright
                noonday sun; but as a driver (or passenger in his case)
                he only saw the cyclist "in the wrong place" and felt
                compelled to "correct" the erring peon's behaviour.

                You are what you drive?

                de

                .............................................................................
                :De Clarke, Software Engineer UCO/Lick Observatory, UCSC:
                :Mail: de@... | :
                :Web: www.ucolick.org | Don't Fear the Penguins :
              • John Snyder
                ... Bill, we might add a qualifier, ...cheaper than a new car. John Snyder
                Message 7 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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                  Bill wrote:

                  > Sure it's [a Lietra] expensive, but it's cheaper
                  > than a car!

                  Bill, we might add a qualifier, "...cheaper than a new
                  car."

                  John Snyder
                • Bill Volk
                  Over 10 years ... assuming 5000 miles a year (I do cycle more than that). I d hazard to guess the T.C.O. (Total Cost of Ownership) of the Lietra, even if
                  Message 8 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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                    Over 10 years ... assuming 5000 miles a year (I do cycle more than that).
                    I'd hazard to guess the T.C.O. (Total Cost of Ownership) of the Lietra, even
                    if purchased for full retail with the fuzzy-dice option ... would run less
                    than ANY auto ... run for the same miles.

                    Yes, you can buy a decent used car for less than this bike. You could also
                    put together your own "velomobile" using one of the cheap trike kits (saw
                    these folks at the People Movers Ride) and build your own.

                    Still, if you want long term low-cost transport ... the Lietra could pay for
                    itself ...

                    Bill
                    -----Original Message-----
                    From: John Snyder [mailto:JCSnyder.studio@...]
                    Sent: Monday, October 01, 2001 1:18 PM
                    To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: RE: [CarFree] getting around in snow


                    Bill wrote:

                    > Sure it's [a Lietra] expensive, but it's cheaper
                    > than a car!

                    Bill, we might add a qualifier, "...cheaper than a new
                    car."

                    John Snyder
                  • nocarsdave@clarityconnect.com
                    Yes- this is a classic phenomenon. Happens here alot. Even the best of intentions becomes secondary when a serious addiction is involved. It might be
                    Message 9 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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                      Yes- this is a classic phenomenon.
                      Happens here alot.
                      Even the best of intentions becomes secondary when a serious
                      addiction is involved.
                      It might be interesting to stage a critical mass just before one of
                      these event! That might be the only way to get though and start some
                      almost-dead (hopefully only almost...) brain cells functioning
                      again....
                      DaveS
                    • nocarsdave@clarityconnect.com
                      ... I guess I should have left the text in here-sorry. I m talking about the phenomenon someone noted in a message back a couple of pages-- that bike events
                      Message 10 of 23 , Oct 1, 2001
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                        --- In CarFree@y..., nocarsdave@c... wrote:
                        > Yes- this is a classic phenomenon.
                        > Happens here alot.
                        > Even the best of intentions becomes secondary when a serious
                        > addiction is involved.
                        > It might be interesting to stage a critical mass just before one of
                        > these event! That might be the only way to get though and start some
                        > almost-dead (hopefully only almost...) brain cells functioning
                        > again....
                        > DaveS

                        I guess I should have left the text in here-sorry. I'm talking about
                        the phenomenon someone noted in a message back a couple of pages-- that
                        "bike events" too often seem to induce MORE traffic, since people put
                        their bikes in their cars and f'ing DRIVE to the starting point...
                      • John Snyder
                        I ve gone through this excercise too many times, comparing the operating costs of a used car to the various upscale HPVs. It s a part of my wishful
                        Message 11 of 23 , Oct 2, 2001
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                          I've gone through this excercise too many times, comparing the
                          operating costs of a used car to the various upscale HPVs. It's
                          a part of my wishful human-powered-centric evangelism. Not a
                          single-one of our fine neighbors has seen glorious light for
                          more than a month at a time. In part this is because the old
                          cars tend too often to do well in terms of manageble
                          out-of-pocket expenses. Rats. Potential money savings is not
                          always the best pry bar to help another person discover the
                          benefits and advantages of self-mobility.

                          Start with a $500 to $1,000 purchase price for a small 10
                          year old automobile with a beat up body but otherwise good
                          mechanical condition. Insurance for an adult driver without
                          prior claims will run approximately $275 per year. Taxes and
                          tags (these are all Montana figures) add in another $30/yr. With
                          fuel selling at $1.30 per gallon, 5,000 miles per year at 35
                          mpg requires about $185.71/yr. Tack in at minimum $200 per
                          year for maintance. The spreadsheet sez'; this scenario
                          results in a highly optimistic $65.80/month average cost, or
                          $7,897 T.C.O. for the ten years. So, for the same number
                          of miles the lovely one-seater Lietra imported from Denmark
                          would likely finish, in terms of costs over ten years, in a
                          near dead heat with an old-beater automobile. However, I
                          suspect a more realistic break even point would happen
                          closer to 7 or 8 years, baring any major accidents.

                          Even seven years is long time to gamble on having such an
                          investment pay off, obviously not an entry level option.
                          When comparing against an older used car (or small motor
                          scooter) as basic transportation, even the HPVs in the
                          $2,000 to $3,000 range will ask for approximately two to
                          three years before begining to pass on savings to the
                          owner. The money situation with the high end bikes and
                          trikes is not unlike converting a house to solar
                          electricity, e.g., a long term commitment mixed
                          in with a bit of luck. In my opinion if a person
                          wants an expensive or better than average item,
                          desire is the only rational needed to be given.

                          A constrast point; The WalMart flyer that came in this week's
                          mail, advertises adult 18-speed, front suspension bikes for $75.
                          This has been a grumble of sorts, because I've been typically
                          spending conciderably more than $100 per year per bike in our
                          stable on replacement parts and the other whatnots which wear
                          out constantly. Ah, but a good fitting cycle with butter-smooth
                          components is a fine enjoyable thing, well worth the
                          extra effort.

                          You Bill have been a prime inspiration for a very good
                          option, if it's strictly a matter of minimizing cost and
                          maximizing quality. Building one's own bike, like your recumbent
                          Heavy Metal, is something that reflects very old and honorable
                          traditions of self-reliance and can-do innovation. Historically,
                          this current trend of buying every thing a person uses instead
                          of making or growing to satisfy needs and wants is an
                          exceptionally recent phenomena.

                          Cheers,

                          John Snyder
                        • David Hansen
                          ... I had not noticed this before. ... I took a look at the source and you are correct. It s silly and pointless not to put a HTML link in. A triumph of those
                          Message 12 of 23 , Oct 2, 2001
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                            On 1 Oct 2001 at 11:57, De Clarke wrote:

                            > >> http://www.nihola.dk
                            >
                            > Looks interesting but I find the site completely
                            > dysfunctional -- menu items do nothing.

                            I had not noticed this before.

                            > presumably
                            > it is complete javascripted and inaccessible otherwise?
                            > pity.

                            I took a look at the source and you are correct. It's silly and pointless not to put a HTML link in. A
                            triumph of those who think they know what they are doing. Complaints to nihola@....

                            A similar trike in some ways is the Christiania. This should be on http://www.christianiabikes.com,
                            though it didn't work for me this morning (likely to be something here, it has worked before). This
                            will I suspect work without Javascript.

                            http://www.christiania.org has some older pictures of the same thing.
                            http://www.workbike.org/zero/Sales2.html is also navigable without Javascript and has pictures of
                            both trikes.


                            --
                            David Hansen | davidh@... | PGP email preferred
                            Edinburgh | CI$ number 100024,3247 | key number F566DA0E
                            If I revoke this key, the only circumstance in which I will not be
                            prepared to explain my reasons for doing so will be when UK
                            government authorities have stipulated that providing such an
                            explanation would be unlawful. See RIP Act 2000.
                          • Bill Volk
                            ... Ah, for the days of 35 hour weeks, 33 mile bike commutes, and regular FAT paychecks .... I didn t build HM to save $$$, but you are right ... it s very
                            Message 13 of 23 , Oct 2, 2001
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                              John writes:

                              >You Bill have been a prime inspiration for a very good
                              >option, if it's strictly a matter of minimizing cost and
                              >maximizing quality. Building one's own bike, like your recumbent
                              >Heavy Metal, is something that reflects very old and honorable
                              >traditions of self-reliance and can-do innovation. Historically,
                              >this current trend of buying every thing a person uses instead
                              >of making or growing to satisfy needs and wants is an
                              >exceptionally recent phenomena.

                              Ah, for the days of 35 hour weeks, 33 mile bike commutes, and regular FAT
                              paychecks ....

                              I didn't build HM to save $$$, but you are right ... it's very cheap if you
                              don't go crazy on equipment. I did love riding my own design and
                              construction.

                              The only thing I built as of late, was the luggage rack on the ZOX 26
                              (harder than building a bike frame, really).

                              Now with my own company to run I don't have the time to build anything ....
                              but I really want to build the best recumbent folder in the world.

                              Bill
                            • Bill Volk
                              I also forgot this ... A $500 to $1000 used car is bound to have major repair needs over a 7 year period. Heck even a $10,000 Shiny Lease Turn In might need
                              Message 14 of 23 , Oct 2, 2001
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                                I also forgot this ...

                                A $500 to $1000 used car is bound to have major repair needs over a 7 year
                                period. Heck even a $10,000 Shiny Lease Turn In might need $1000's of
                                repairs over 7 years.

                                Unless the car market is much cheaper where you live...

                                I also believe, and I'm sure to get flamed for this, that if you had ANY
                                real volume in the velomobile business .... something akin to a Lietra would
                                sell for $999.95.

                                Bill
                                -----Original Message-----
                                From: John Snyder [mailto:JCSnyder.studio@...]
                                Sent: Tuesday, October 02, 2001 1:01 AM
                                To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                                Subject: RE: [CarFree] getting around in snow


                                I've gone through this excercise too many times, comparing the
                                operating costs of a used car to the various upscale HPVs. It's
                                a part of my wishful human-powered-centric evangelism. Not a
                                single-one of our fine neighbors has seen glorious light for
                                more than a month at a time. In part this is because the old
                                cars tend too often to do well in terms of manageble
                                out-of-pocket expenses. Rats. Potential money savings is not
                                always the best pry bar to help another person discover the
                                benefits and advantages of self-mobility.

                                Start with a $500 to $1,000 purchase price for a small 10
                                year old automobile with a beat up body but otherwise good
                                mechanical condition. Insurance for an adult driver without
                                prior claims will run approximately $275 per year. Taxes and
                                tags (these are all Montana figures) add in another $30/yr. With
                                fuel selling at $1.30 per gallon, 5,000 miles per year at 35
                                mpg requires about $185.71/yr. Tack in at minimum $200 per
                                year for maintance. The spreadsheet sez'; this scenario
                                results in a highly optimistic $65.80/month average cost, or
                                $7,897 T.C.O. for the ten years. So, for the same number
                                of miles the lovely one-seater Lietra imported from Denmark
                                would likely finish, in terms of costs over ten years, in a
                                near dead heat with an old-beater automobile. However, I
                                suspect a more realistic break even point would happen
                                closer to 7 or 8 years, baring any major accidents.

                                Even seven years is long time to gamble on having such an
                                investment pay off, obviously not an entry level option.
                                When comparing against an older used car (or small motor
                                scooter) as basic transportation, even the HPVs in the
                                $2,000 to $3,000 range will ask for approximately two to
                                three years before begining to pass on savings to the
                                owner. The money situation with the high end bikes and
                                trikes is not unlike converting a house to solar
                                electricity, e.g., a long term commitment mixed
                                in with a bit of luck. In my opinion if a person
                                wants an expensive or better than average item,
                                desire is the only rational needed to be given.
                              • John Snyder
                                ... That is true. As you figured the market does produce inexpensive used cars in Central Montana relative to other places in the US with higher average wages.
                                Message 15 of 23 , Oct 2, 2001
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                                  Bill wrote:

                                  > A $500 to $1000 used car is bound to have major repair needs over a 7 year
                                  > period. Heck even a $10,000 Shiny Lease Turn In might need $1000's of
                                  > repairs over 7 years.

                                  That is true.

                                  As you figured the market does produce inexpensive used
                                  cars in Central Montana relative to other places in the US
                                  with higher average wages. Some folks can and do treat used
                                  cars like they do paper plates. If the $500 automobile conks
                                  out, instead of spending $1,000 in repairs or parts they
                                  scrape enough together for another $500 car. In context,
                                  this practice translates into reduced incentives to explore
                                  overall lower-cost alternatives which require a higher intial
                                  investment.

                                  > I also believe, and I'm sure to get flamed for this, that if you had ANY
                                  > real volume in the velomobile business .... something akin to a Lietra would
                                  > sell for $999.95.

                                  No heat from this corner. The infamous IMHO asserts, there's room,
                                  and a strong need, for a wide range of prices on multi-track
                                  HPVs just as now exists with upright bicycles.

                                  Volume will be one of the keys towards more affordable velomobiles
                                  becoming a reality some day. Preceptions are another.

                                  As an example, the Worksman standard single-speed Industrial trike
                                  which is welded together in NYC, _retails_ for $250. Their "recumbent"
                                  version, highly similar in manufacture, retails for $729.
                                  http://www/highwheel.com or http://www.worksman.com Worksman is a
                                  large firm. They can buy raw materials in volume, which is reflected
                                  in the end pricing. However, we customers go looking for ideas,
                                  emotions, and attitudes, as much as we do tangible items -- maybe
                                  more so.

                                  Cheers,

                                  John Snyder
                                • Michel Gagnon
                                  ... While I m not in favour of carrying things on my back, I consider the musical instrument to be an exception. Acoustic instruments like violins or guitars
                                  Message 16 of 23 , Oct 2, 2001
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                                    > On 30 Sep 2001 at 20:07, michelle@... wrote:
                                    >
                                    >
                                    >>I will occasionally need to travel approx. 7 miles (each
                                    >>way), and winter is just around the corner...
                                    >>
                                    >>Any suggestions on a good carfree way to travel that distance in snow?
                                    >>(Also with having to carry a backpack or musical instrument on my
                                    >>back)?
                                    >


                                    >
                                    > David Hansen answered:
                                    >
                                    > Occasionally is a problem. If you wanted to do it regularly then the obvious solution is a
                                    > transporter bike, such as http://www.nihola.dk Trikes are much better in snow than bikes.
                                    >
                                    > .....



                                    While I'm not in favour of carrying things on my back, I consider the
                                    musical instrument to be an exception. Acoustic instruments like violins or
                                    guitars need some shock protection that one either gets from perfectly
                                    smooth roads or from a rack or trailer with suspension and lots of padding.
                                    It might be worthwile to go that way for a cello or double-base, but not for
                                    an alto or standard violin.

                                    --


                                    Michel Gagnon -- mailto:MichelGagnon@...
                                    Montréal (Québec, Canada)
                                  • FolderPete@aol.com
                                    In a message dated 10/3/2001 1:09:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, ... Yes, perhaps, but a slightly better car (~$2000) might last hassle-free quite a while. That
                                    Message 17 of 23 , Oct 3, 2001
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                                      In a message dated 10/3/2001 1:09:39 AM Pacific Daylight Time, CarFree@yahoogroups.com writes:

                                      A $500 to $1000 used car is bound to have major repair needs over a 7 year
                                      period.  Heck even a $10,000 Shiny Lease Turn In might need $1000's of
                                      repairs over 7 years.


                                      Yes, perhaps, but a slightly better car (~$2000) might last hassle-free quite a while.

                                      That was my strategy for buying used.  Pay well for an older vehicle from a one owner source that has be regularly maintained.  I had a 10yr old Celica, and a 15yr old Chevy C-10 PU.   The only other caveat would be to not put too many miles on them.  I'd put typically half the average annual mileage (~4000-8000).  [Used] tires were my main replacement parts.  Also a 1 yr old Nissan PU, which, during 8 yrs, needed -- again, tires.

                                      I'm sure this calculus would have changed if I had had a pressing NEED for each vehicle.  As I always had (inconvenient) alternatives, the Car God eased up on me a bit, I believe.  YMMV.

                                      Its amazing how absolutely cheap it can be to run a death-monster in this country.  Many in CA never even registre (let alone insure) so costs are literally 'gas-n-oil'.  Of course most people pay significantly more; through need, or lack of inconvenience, or safety, or vanity.

                                      But then I imagine its possible to pull an old Schwinn out of the creek, repatch, repatch, and scavenge bike parts for the "non-buttery-smooth ride".  Is this the equivalent of the no-cost  jalopy?
                                      FP
                                    • John Snyder
                                      ... That s a great option. I d suggest though that the butter gets churned to perfection more by what mechanic does than the cost or source of the parts.
                                      Message 18 of 23 , Oct 3, 2001
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                                        Folder Pete wrote:

                                        > But then I imagine its possible to pull an old Schwinn out of the creek,
                                        > repatch, repatch, and scavenge bike parts for the "non-buttery-smooth ride".
                                        > Is this the equivalent of the no-cost jalopy?

                                        That's a great option. I'd suggest though that "the
                                        butter gets churned to perfection" more by what mechanic
                                        does than the cost or source of the parts. Scavenged
                                        components can be tweaked with a dash of love and
                                        thought to enhance their performance.

                                        My wife has the unexplainable talent of being able to walk
                                        into a second hand shop or garage sale then spot a five-dollar
                                        bicycle in near show room condition. It's obviously some sort
                                        of magical ability because I've never had the same sort of
                                        luck when out hunting for parts. :)

                                        There is another route open for some.

                                        My home town and a few other communities around the world have
                                        begun Free Bikes programs, sponsored by one of the service
                                        clubs in conjunction with the citys' police department.

                                        Unclaimed stolen bicycles, or even donated ones, are refurbished
                                        if needed to working condition by volunteers. Temporary ownership
                                        of a bike is then transfered to anyone who asks for it. The
                                        only stipulation being that the vehicle be eventually
                                        returned. Custody can be a matter of hours or decades, depending
                                        on each individual's situation. If the cycle breaks down, it can
                                        go back the police station or service club to trade in for another
                                        one or get fixed. This tact seems to be running more smoothly than
                                        the previous Yellow Bikes program* which was plagued to extinction
                                        with vandalism. Evolution!

                                        The idea sure puts a nice new twist on the slogan, "to serve
                                        and to protect."

                                        Cheers,

                                        John Snyder

                                        (* The Yellow bikes concept was born several years ago in
                                        Holland. Community-shared bicycles set out at random, allowed
                                        anyone lucky enough to find a yellow-painted bicycle in
                                        operating condition to pedal from one point to another.)
                                      • Fahrion, Jason L
                                        My home town and a few other communities around the world have begun Free Bikes programs, sponsored by one of the service clubs in conjunction with the citys
                                        Message 19 of 23 , Oct 3, 2001
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                                          My home town and a few other communities around the world have
                                          begun Free Bikes programs, sponsored by one of the service
                                          clubs in conjunction with the citys' police department.

                                          Unclaimed stolen bicycles, or even donated ones, are refurbished
                                          if needed to working condition by volunteers. Temporary ownership
                                          of a bike is then transfered to anyone who asks for it. The
                                          only stipulation being that the vehicle be eventually
                                          returned. Custody can be a matter of hours or decades, depending
                                          on each individual's situation. If the cycle breaks down, it can
                                          go back the police station or service club to trade in for another
                                          one or get fixed. This tact seems to be running more smoothly than
                                          the previous Yellow Bikes program* which was plagued to extinction
                                          with vandalism. Evolution!

                                          The idea sure puts a nice new twist on the slogan, "to serve
                                          and to protect."

                                          very cool, I wonder if they have something like that here. do you have a
                                          list of participating cities? Is it one organized effort or simply
                                          different citties trying the same general thing?



                                          Jason Fahrion
                                        • John Snyder
                                          ... As far as I know the free bikes programs are always implimented on the local level. In our town I believe the Kiawanis club got the idea rolling to start
                                          Message 20 of 23 , Oct 3, 2001
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                                            Jason wrote:

                                            > very cool, I wonder if they have something like that here. do you > have a
                                            > list of participating cities? Is it one organized effort or simply
                                            > different citties trying the same general thing?

                                            As far as I know the free bikes programs are always
                                            implimented on the local level. In our town I believe
                                            the Kiawanis club got the idea rolling to start with. It's
                                            likely something that has to be tailor fit to each
                                            community's attitudes and unique quirks.

                                            Here's a web page for a similar project in Missoula, Montana.
                                            http://members.spree.com/missoula/freebikes.htm

                                            Ah, neat! Here's a better page, discussing bike sharing
                                            in different parts of the world. It includes a bunch of links
                                            at the bottom. http://www.ibike.org/freebike.htm

                                            John Snyder
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