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Re: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?

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  • Bob Matter
    ... Carfree employees = tardy employees. Long headways are a big problem. If a driver is running 5 minutes late, he makes it to work 5 minutes late. If a
    Message 1 of 18 , Dec 27, 2009
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      On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:34 AM, John Mayson <john@...> wrote:
      >
      > On Mon, Dec 28, > <josephwcarrillo@...> wrote:
      > >  How do I reform job requirements so that they can not
      > > require you to drive a stupid car. Should there be a job
      > > search engine just for car free jobs?
      >
      > Unless your job requires you to get from place to place I can't see
      > why an employer would care how you got to work.

      Carfree employees = tardy employees.

      Long headways are a big problem. If a driver is running 5 minutes
      late, he makes it to work 5 minutes late. If a transit user is
      running 5 minutes late, he misses his train or bus and may have to
      wait an hour or more for the next one. Fixed transit schedules, short
      service hours, and long headways also make carfree employees less
      flexible... "I can't work overtime. My bus stops running at 7pm," or
      "If I don't take the 8:40 p.m. train, I have to wait until 11:00 p.m.
      for the next one."

      Transit systems are also notoriously unreliable. For commuter trains,
      weather delays, mechanical breakdowns, and track work delays are
      common, as are delays due to other train traffic. Bus breakdowns are
      also pretty common. And it seems like every year the transit system
      is in a financial crisis and is forced to slash routes and lengthen
      headways.

      Biking is slow in good weather and even slower in bad weather, and
      unlike drivers, cyclists are much more susceptible to flat tires.
      That all adds up to more tardiness. And cyclists are much more
      susceptible to injury (more lost work time).

      All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with
      extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that
      effort.

      -Bob Matter
      Carfree in NW Indiana
    • George Keagle
      Don t know how you re thinking insofar as reforming job requirements -- whether you mean your current job or whether you re looking toward prospective jobs.
      Message 2 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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        Don't know how you're thinking insofar as "reforming job requirements" -- whether you mean your current job or whether you're looking toward prospective jobs. I doubt you'll have a lot of success "reforming" prospective employers. They decide what they want from you and you decide whether your desires and qualifications are such that you should apply for the position as it's advertised.

        My observation is you will perhaps need to reform yourself -- the kind of work for which you're educated and/or trained; possibly even where you live or where you seek employment in terms of proximity to alternative transportation.

        If you're primarily a traveling salesman, I can't see how you could continue in that work unless you ask to be transferred to "inside sales" -- likely at lower up front pay, but possibly with the potential for improving your volume in such a way to make it remunerative without being tied to a car. Then, if you and your job are accessible to public or alternative transportation (commuting by bike, for instance) you've accomplished your goal.

        Good luck in "reforming" others. Generally, reform starts at home I think.

        Regards,

        Geo. Keagle




        ________________________________
        From: Grizzly Bear Handyman <josephwcarrillo@...>
        To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 12:28:47 AM
        Subject: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?


        How do I reform job requirements so that they can not require you to drive a stupid car. Should there be a job search engine just for car free jobs?







        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • George Keagle
        Don t know how you re thinking insofar as reforming job requirements -- whether you mean your current job or whether you re looking toward prospective jobs.
        Message 3 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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          Don't know how you're thinking insofar as "reforming job requirements" -- whether you mean your current job or whether you're looking toward prospective jobs. I doubt you'll have a lot of success "reforming" prospective employers. They decide what they want from you and you decide whether your desires and qualifications are such that you should apply for the position as it's advertised. It will be up to you to figure out if you can do the work car free.

          My observation is you will perhaps need to reform yourself: the kind of work for which you're educated and/or trained; possibly even where you live or where you seek employment in terms of proximity to alternative transportation.

          If you're a traveling salesman I can't see how you would continue in that work unless you ask to be transferred to inside sales -- likely at lower up front pay, but possibly with the potential for improving your volume in such a way to make it remunerative without being tied to a car. Then, if you and your job are accessible to public or alternative transportation (commuting by bike, for instance) you've accomplished your goal.

          I
          retired from teaching in 1998, subbed for a time but discovered it was
          difficult depending upon bike commute to get to some schools on short
          notice and during inclement conditions (Iowa can be a bitcheroo). I
          joined the driving team for MTA and drove city buses, located myself
          3.5 miles from the bus terminal. I just retired from bus driving July
          30th. I never drove to MTA to drive a bus (save a couple or three
          times when I had to pick up grandkids immediately after my morning run
          was over). In 2005 we installed bike racks on all fixed route buses so I could sub teach and bike commute much more easily.

          Now I think my neighbor will buy my last vehicle before
          today is over. My goal has to be car free by the end of 2009.

          Good luck in "reforming" others. Generally, reform starts at home I think.

          Regards,

          Geo. Keagle




          ________________________________
          From: Grizzly Bear Handyman <josephwcarrillo@...>
          To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
          Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 12:28:47 AM
          Subject: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?


          How do I reform job requirements so that they can not require you to drive a stupid car. Should there be a job search engine just for car free jobs?







          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Whitney Turner
          ... I sit in an office most of the day, occasionally venturing out into the warehouse. Sometimes I have to go off campus , for which I either use my bike or
          Message 4 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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            At 01:28 AM 12/28/2009, Grizzly Bear Handyman wrote:
            >How do I reform job requirements so that they can not require you to
            >drive a stupid car. Should there be a job search engine just for car
            >free jobs?

            I sit in an office most of the day, occasionally venturing out into
            the warehouse. Sometimes I have to go "off campus", for which I
            either use my bike or my Ninja 250 "bike".

            My car is mostly for hauling kayaks around - it's cheaper than buying
            a trailer for the Ninja, and safer as well.

            What jobs are you looking/qualified for?

            Whitney
          • Jym Dyer
            =v= They re all pizza-delivery jobs. ;^) =v= I was shocked to see the Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition advertise a job that required use of a car!
            Message 5 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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              =v= They're all pizza-delivery jobs. ;^)

              =v= I was shocked to see the Silicon Valley Bicycle Coalition
              advertise a job that required use of a car!
              <_Jym_>
            • Jym Dyer
              ... =v= I found an even better solution by combining these two: http://www.bikefriday.com/ http://www.foldingkayaks.org/ I cannot claim credit for this; I met
              Message 6 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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                > My car is mostly for hauling kayaks around - it's cheaper
                > than buying a trailer for the Ninja, and safer as well.

                =v= I found an even better solution by combining these two:

                http://www.bikefriday.com/

                http://www.foldingkayaks.org/

                I cannot claim credit for this; I met a many 30 years my senior
                who combined these two modes.
                <_Jym_>
              • George Keagle
                You can also get yourself a trailer for your bike that will make easy work moving the kayaks -- and it will keep you healthier to boot. Check this site out:
                Message 7 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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                  You can also get yourself a trailer for your bike that will make easy work moving the kayaks -- and it will keep you healthier to boot. Check this site out:

                  http://www.bikesatwork.com/bike-trailers/

                  Geo. Keagle




                  ________________________________
                  From: Jym Dyer <jym@...>
                  To: carfree@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 12:53:06 PM
                  Subject: Re: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?


                  > My car is mostly for hauling kayaks around - it's cheaper
                  > than buying a trailer for the Ninja, and safer as well.

                  =v= I found an even better solution by combining these two:

                  http://www.bikefriday.com/

                  http://www.foldingkayaks.org/

                  I cannot claim credit for this; I met a many 30 years my senior
                  who combined these two modes.
                  <_Jym_>







                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • George Keagle
                  ________________________________ From: John Mayson To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 12:32:02 PM Subject: Re: [CF] Why
                  Message 8 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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                    ________________________________
                    From: John Mayson <john@...>
                    To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 12:32:02 PM
                    Subject: Re: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?


                    "...I've been job searching and I can't get over how many job postings
                    state that a driver's license is required. Okay, this isn't the same
                    as mandating car ownership. But why? I'm a techie. With many of the
                    jobs I could continue riding my bike or take the bus. Do they assume
                    if you don't have a driver's license you're a lazy, incompetent,
                    negligent loser?..."

                    The statists who issue the "drivers licenses" are the "lazy, incompetent, negligent losers" (and parasites to boot). But for a free market anarchist like me it is astounding the percentage of folks who believe you are nobody unless "the state" (government employees) say you are somebody.
                    Geo. Keagle
                    --
                    John Mayson <john@mayson. us>
                    http://www.linkedin.com/in/jmayson






                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • g_keagle
                    ... ...All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that effort... First
                    Message 9 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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                      --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, Bob Matter <rjmatter@...> wrote:

                      "...All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with
                      extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that
                      effort..."

                      First I'll announce to the group I officially became car-free at 3PM
                      today. My goal had been the end of 2009 (license on my last vehicle
                      would have drawn a penalty Jan 1st). I was able to turn in my license
                      plates and wash my hands of automobiles.

                      I had been moving this direction for years. Only in the last year did I
                      get down to one vehicle, the pickup being relegated to the farm operated
                      by my son and grandsons earlier. The car I sold today only logged 2,335
                      miles in the past calendar year. I had commuted winter and summer for
                      15 years or more (slowly weaning myself of the "emergency" necessity to
                      crank up the car).

                      Bob is absolutely correct. The challenges can be met "with
                      extraordinary effort". But the rewards are well worth the
                      "extraordinary effort". For instance I fought flat tires early in my
                      commute career -- like Old Murphy and his Law: always when least
                      expected, at the worst possible time. I discovered there are some good
                      tires on the market if you look hard enough -- and pay the price. But
                      upgrading tires and tubes turned out to probably cost less than the
                      motor fuel for one week's commute had I taken the "easier, softer way".

                      There is no way to calculate the value of being in top physical
                      condition, free of doctors and medications, at age 73. Medical savings
                      and excellent health alone will pay for a lifetime of the very best,
                      durable, puncture free tires and tubes -- and several high-end, reliable
                      bikes.

                      I biked to work many times when schools were closed due to ice and snow.
                      More than once I was able to glide around traffic that was snarled
                      behind a driver or two who whined and spun and burned their tires
                      attempting to clear a slick hill. How people can grow up in this
                      rigorous climate (Iowa) and still have no idea of basic laws of traction
                      is beyond me. I grew up where there was no snow (South Texas) -- well,
                      last week they had a skiff that frightened the whole population -- and
                      most of them figure it out when necessary.

                      For the last 12 years I drove for MTA -- zero tolerance for drivers
                      arriving to work late. It's hard enough to maintain a bus schedule
                      without dealing with drivers who couldn't get to work on time. People
                      would ask how I made it through the ice and snow and cold faster than I
                      could have driven. I always told 'em that I never once had to waste
                      time scraping ice off the windshield of my bike [8-|] .

                      So my "security blanket" (car) is gone. I'll have to lean on your
                      expertise to cope.* Regards,

                      Geo. Keagle

                      *Really -- I'm looking forward to it.


                      > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:34 AM, John Mayson john@... wrote:
                      > >
                      > > On Mon, Dec 28, > josephwcarrillo@... wrote:
                      > > > How do I reform job requirements so that they can not
                      > > > require you to drive a stupid car. Should there be a job
                      > > > search engine just for car free jobs?
                      > >
                      > > Unless your job requires you to get from place to place I can't see
                      > > why an employer would care how you got to work.
                      >
                      > Carfree employees = tardy employees.
                      >
                      > Long headways are a big problem. If a driver is running 5 minutes
                      > late, he makes it to work 5 minutes late. If a transit user is
                      > running 5 minutes late, he misses his train or bus and may have to
                      > wait an hour or more for the next one. Fixed transit schedules, short
                      > service hours, and long headways also make carfree employees less
                      > flexible... "I can't work overtime. My bus stops running at 7pm," or
                      > "If I don't take the 8:40 p.m. train, I have to wait until 11:00 p.m.
                      > for the next one."
                      >
                      > Transit systems are also notoriously unreliable. For commuter trains,
                      > weather delays, mechanical breakdowns, and track work delays are
                      > common, as are delays due to other train traffic. Bus breakdowns are
                      > also pretty common. And it seems like every year the transit system
                      > is in a financial crisis and is forced to slash routes and lengthen
                      > headways.
                      >
                      > Biking is slow in good weather and even slower in bad weather, and
                      > unlike drivers, cyclists are much more susceptible to flat tires.
                      > That all adds up to more tardiness. And cyclists are much more
                      > susceptible to injury (more lost work time).
                      >
                      > All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with
                      > extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that
                      > effort.
                      >
                      > -Bob Matter
                      > Carfree in NW Indiana
                      >



                      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                    • Joseph Carrillo
                       Could bringing back the works progress administration to build public transit get people to stop using cars?                       
                      Message 10 of 18 , Dec 28, 2009
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                         Could bringing back the works progress administration to build public transit get people to stop using cars?                       




                        ________________________________
                        From: g_keagle <g_keagle@...>
                        To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                        Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 7:48:03 PM
                        Subject: Re: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?

                         

                        --- In CarFree@yahoogroups .com, Bob Matter <rjmatter@.. .> wrote:

                        "...All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with
                        extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that
                        effort..."

                        First I'll announce to the group I officially became car-free at 3PM
                        today. My goal had been the end of 2009 (license on my last vehicle
                        would have drawn a penalty Jan 1st). I was able to turn in my license
                        plates and wash my hands of automobiles.

                        I had been moving this direction for years. Only in the last year did I
                        get down to one vehicle, the pickup being relegated to the farm operated
                        by my son and grandsons earlier. The car I sold today only logged 2,335
                        miles in the past calendar year. I had commuted winter and summer for
                        15 years or more (slowly weaning myself of the "emergency" necessity to
                        crank up the car).

                        Bob is absolutely correct. The challenges can be met "with
                        extraordinary effort". But the rewards are well worth the
                        "extraordinary effort". For instance I fought flat tires early in my
                        commute career -- like Old Murphy and his Law: always when least
                        expected, at the worst possible time. I discovered there are some good
                        tires on the market if you look hard enough -- and pay the price. But
                        upgrading tires and tubes turned out to probably cost less than the
                        motor fuel for one week's commute had I taken the "easier, softer way".

                        There is no way to calculate the value of being in top physical
                        condition, free of doctors and medications, at age 73. Medical savings
                        and excellent health alone will pay for a lifetime of the very best,
                        durable, puncture free tires and tubes -- and several high-end, reliable
                        bikes.

                        I biked to work many times when schools were closed due to ice and snow.
                        More than once I was able to glide around traffic that was snarled
                        behind a driver or two who whined and spun and burned their tires
                        attempting to clear a slick hill. How people can grow up in this
                        rigorous climate (Iowa) and still have no idea of basic laws of traction
                        is beyond me. I grew up where there was no snow (South Texas) -- well,
                        last week they had a skiff that frightened the whole population -- and
                        most of them figure it out when necessary.

                        For the last 12 years I drove for MTA -- zero tolerance for drivers
                        arriving to work late. It's hard enough to maintain a bus schedule
                        without dealing with drivers who couldn't get to work on time. People
                        would ask how I made it through the ice and snow and cold faster than I
                        could have driven. I always told 'em that I never once had to waste
                        time scraping ice off the windshield of my bike [8-|] .

                        So my "security blanket" (car) is gone. I'll have to lean on your
                        expertise to cope.* Regards,

                        Geo. Keagle

                        *Really -- I'm looking forward to it.

                        > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:34 AM, John Mayson john@... wrote:
                        > >
                        > > On Mon, Dec 28, > josephwcarrillo@ ... wrote:
                        > > > How do I reform job requirements so that they can not
                        > > > require you to drive a stupid car. Should there be a job
                        > > > search engine just for car free jobs?
                        > >
                        > > Unless your job requires you to get from place to place I can't see
                        > > why an employer would care how you got to work.
                        >
                        > Carfree employees = tardy employees.
                        >
                        > Long headways are a big problem. If a driver is running 5 minutes
                        > late, he makes it to work 5 minutes late. If a transit user is
                        > running 5 minutes late, he misses his train or bus and may have to
                        > wait an hour or more for the next one. Fixed transit schedules, short
                        > service hours, and long headways also make carfree employees less
                        > flexible... "I can't work overtime. My bus stops running at 7pm," or
                        > "If I don't take the 8:40 p.m. train, I have to wait until 11:00 p.m.
                        > for the next one."
                        >
                        > Transit systems are also notoriously unreliable. For commuter trains,
                        > weather delays, mechanical breakdowns, and track work delays are
                        > common, as are delays due to other train traffic. Bus breakdowns are
                        > also pretty common. And it seems like every year the transit system
                        > is in a financial crisis and is forced to slash routes and lengthen
                        > headways.
                        >
                        > Biking is slow in good weather and even slower in bad weather, and
                        > unlike drivers, cyclists are much more susceptible to flat tires.
                        > That all adds up to more tardiness. And cyclists are much more
                        > susceptible to injury (more lost work time).
                        >
                        > All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with
                        > extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that
                        > effort.
                        >
                        > -Bob Matter
                        > Carfree in NW Indiana
                        >

                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                      • George Keagle
                        ________________________________ From: Joseph Carrillo To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com Cc: Joseph Carrillo
                        Message 11 of 18 , Dec 29, 2009
                        • 0 Attachment
                          ________________________________
                          From: Joseph Carrillo <josephwcarrillo@...>
                          To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                          Cc: Joseph Carrillo <josephwcarrillo@...>
                          Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 11:32:46 PM
                          Subject: Re: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?


                          Could bringing back the works progress administration to build public transit get people to stop using cars?

                          No, but the socialists in the District of Collectivism...er, Columbia would love to explore the idea.

                          My fellow Americans
                          Biking is a privilege

                          Not a right!


                          ____________ _________ _________ __
                          From: g_keagle <g_keagle@yahoo. com>
                          To: CarFree@yahoogroups .com
                          Sent: Mon, December 28, 2009 7:48:03 PM
                          Subject: Re: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?



                          --- In CarFree@yahoogroups .com, Bob Matter <rjmatter@.. .> wrote:

                          "...All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with
                          extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that
                          effort..."

                          First I'll announce to the group I officially became car-free at 3PM
                          today. My goal had been the end of 2009 (license on my last vehicle
                          would have drawn a penalty Jan 1st). I was able to turn in my license
                          plates and wash my hands of automobiles.

                          I had been moving this direction for years. Only in the last year did I
                          get down to one vehicle, the pickup being relegated to the farm operated
                          by my son and grandsons earlier. The car I sold today only logged 2,335
                          miles in the past calendar year. I had commuted winter and summer for
                          15 years or more (slowly weaning myself of the "emergency" necessity to
                          crank up the car).

                          Bob is absolutely correct. The challenges can be met "with
                          extraordinary effort". But the rewards are well worth the
                          "extraordinary effort". For instance I fought flat tires early in my
                          commute career -- like Old Murphy and his Law: always when least
                          expected, at the worst possible time. I discovered there are some good
                          tires on the market if you look hard enough -- and pay the price. But
                          upgrading tires and tubes turned out to probably cost less than the
                          motor fuel for one week's commute had I taken the "easier, softer way".

                          There is no way to calculate the value of being in top physical
                          condition, free of doctors and medications, at age 73. Medical savings
                          and excellent health alone will pay for a lifetime of the very best,
                          durable, puncture free tires and tubes -- and several high-end, reliable
                          bikes.

                          I biked to work many times when schools were closed due to ice and snow.
                          More than once I was able to glide around traffic that was snarled
                          behind a driver or two who whined and spun and burned their tires
                          attempting to clear a slick hill. How people can grow up in this
                          rigorous climate (Iowa) and still have no idea of basic laws of traction
                          is beyond me. I grew up where there was no snow (South Texas) -- well,
                          last week they had a skiff that frightened the whole population -- and
                          most of them figure it out when necessary.

                          For the last 12 years I drove for MTA -- zero tolerance for drivers
                          arriving to work late. It's hard enough to maintain a bus schedule
                          without dealing with drivers who couldn't get to work on time. People
                          would ask how I made it through the ice and snow and cold faster than I
                          could have driven. I always told 'em that I never once had to waste
                          time scraping ice off the windshield of my bike [8-|] .

                          So my "security blanket" (car) is gone. I'll have to lean on your
                          expertise to cope.* Regards,

                          Geo. Keagle

                          *Really -- I'm looking forward to it.

                          > On Mon, Dec 28, 2009 at 12:34 AM, John Mayson john@... wrote:
                          > >
                          > > On Mon, Dec 28, > josephwcarrillo@ ... wrote:
                          > > > How do I reform job requirements so that they can not
                          > > > require you to drive a stupid car. Should there be a job
                          > > > search engine just for car free jobs?
                          > >
                          > > Unless your job requires you to get from place to place I can't see
                          > > why an employer would care how you got to work.
                          >
                          > Carfree employees = tardy employees.
                          >
                          > Long headways are a big problem. If a driver is running 5 minutes
                          > late, he makes it to work 5 minutes late. If a transit user is
                          > running 5 minutes late, he misses his train or bus and may have to
                          > wait an hour or more for the next one. Fixed transit schedules, short
                          > service hours, and long headways also make carfree employees less
                          > flexible... "I can't work overtime. My bus stops running at 7pm," or
                          > "If I don't take the 8:40 p.m. train, I have to wait until 11:00 p.m.
                          > for the next one."
                          >
                          > Transit systems are also notoriously unreliable. For commuter trains,
                          > weather delays, mechanical breakdowns, and track work delays are
                          > common, as are delays due to other train traffic. Bus breakdowns are
                          > also pretty common. And it seems like every year the transit system
                          > is in a financial crisis and is forced to slash routes and lengthen
                          > headways.
                          >
                          > Biking is slow in good weather and even slower in bad weather, and
                          > unlike drivers, cyclists are much more susceptible to flat tires.
                          > That all adds up to more tardiness. And cyclists are much more
                          > susceptible to injury (more lost work time).
                          >
                          > All of these challenges can be somewhat successfully met with
                          > extraordinary effort, but the average person will not put forth that
                          > effort.
                          >
                          > -Bob Matter
                          > Carfree in NW Indiana
                          >

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]







                          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                        • Jym Dyer
                          ... =v= Gosh, there s that word again. The last time you misused the s-word, you were called on it and you begged off. If you re going to keep using it, I m
                          Message 12 of 18 , Dec 29, 2009
                          • 0 Attachment
                            Joseph Carrillo wrote:
                            >> Could bringing back the works progress administration to
                            >> build public transit get people to stop using cars?

                            George Keagle writes:
                            > No, but the socialists in the District of Collectivism...er,
                            > Columbia would love to explore the idea.

                            =v= Gosh, there's that word again. The last time you misused
                            the s-word, you were called on it and you begged off. If you're
                            going to keep using it, I'm going to have to repeat my question
                            that you sidestepped the last time:

                            http://groups.yahoo.com/group/CarFree/message/19665

                            You write as if cars on roads are somehow "just there" and any
                            alternative to their use is eeevil so-shul-izm. Cars on roads
                            are the most resource-intensive form of grand transportation
                            ever devised and thus require more subsidy than all the others,
                            so that argument makes no sense.

                            =v= Your previous sidestepping -- that you're retired so it's
                            got nothing to do with you -- doesn't make sense, either. Your
                            tax dollars saddled all of us with the staggeringly high cost
                            of maintaining all these roads and it's time to face the facts.

                            > My fellow Americans
                            > Biking is a privilege
                            >
                            > Not a right!

                            =v= Exactly backwards. Mobility is the right, and since cars
                            interfere with other forms of mobility, their use is the
                            privilege.

                            =v= Mobility has been our right since the dawn of human
                            existence. Our eyes and feet face forward. In the U.S. that
                            right has been codified since at least the Magna Carta, the
                            nation's oldest legal precedent that has the force of law in
                            49 of our 50 states.
                            <_Jym_>
                          • George Keagle
                            ________________________________ From: Jym Dyer To: carfree@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 12:56:10 PM Subject: Re: [CF] Why do
                            Message 13 of 18 , Dec 29, 2009
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                              ________________________________
                              From: Jym Dyer <jym@...>
                              To: carfree@yahoogroups.com
                              Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 12:56:10 PM
                              Subject: Re: [CF] Why do most jobs require use of a car?


                              Joseph Carrillo wrote:
                              >> Could bringing back the works progress administration to
                              >> build public transit get people to stop using cars?

                              George Keagle writes:
                              > No, but the socialists in the District of Collectivism. ..er,
                              > Columbia would love to explore the idea.

                              =v= Gosh, there's that word again. The last time you misused
                              the s-word, you were called on it and you begged off. If you're
                              going to keep using it, I'm going to have to repeat my question
                              that you sidestepped the last time:

                              Aw, Jym. Don't be so serious!
                              What's an old 73 year-old got to do but ruffle feathers on the web???
                              If you think I hassle lefties with my crude rhetoric, you should see how I torture the "religious right". Unconscionable. But I'm addicted. Sorry.
                              (OK. I'll withdraw the S word again). Genuine regards,
                              Geo. Keagle


                              http://groups. yahoo.com/ group/CarFree/ message/19665

                              You write as if cars on roads are somehow "just there" and any
                              alternative to their use is eeevil so-shul-izm. Cars on roads
                              are the most resource-intensive form of grand transportation
                              ever devised and thus require more subsidy than all the others,
                              so that argument makes no sense.

                              =v= Your previous sidestepping -- that you're retired so it's
                              got nothing to do with you -- doesn't make sense, either. Your
                              tax dollars saddled all of us with the staggeringly high cost
                              of maintaining all these roads and it's time to face the facts.

                              > My fellow Americans
                              > Biking is a privilege
                              >
                              > Not a right!

                              =v= Exactly backwards. Mobility is the right, and since cars
                              interfere with other forms of mobility, their use is the
                              privilege.

                              =v= Mobility has been our right since the dawn of human
                              existence. Our eyes and feet face forward. In the U.S. that
                              right has been codified since at least the Magna Carta, the
                              nation's oldest legal precedent that has the force of law in
                              49 of our 50 states.
                              <_Jym_>







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                            • justice99645
                              ... Not in my experience. ... Except that that hasn t been how it happens. If I run late to catch the bus, I call a taxi. When I take the bus, I get there
                              Message 14 of 18 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, Bob Matter <rjmatter@...> wrote:
                                > Carfree employees = tardy employees.

                                Not in my experience.

                                > Long headways are a big problem. If a driver is running 5 minutes
                                > late, he makes it to work 5 minutes late. If a transit user is
                                > running 5 minutes late, he misses his train or bus and may have to
                                > wait an hour or more for the next one.

                                Except that that hasn't been how it happens. If I run late to catch the bus, I call a taxi. When I take the bus, I get there early. The only time i've been late to work was the time when wires got crossed and I showed up at work 10 minutes early only to find that I was at the wrong location and needed to be on the other side of town.. I was 10 minutes late to work.

                                < long rant about how much a badly designed and maintained transit system behaves in a worst case scenario >

                                On occasion, sure. Sometimes cars suffer mechanical failures, sometimes wrecks lock up traffic for hours, and then there's the times that the car driver doesn't make it to work for inactivity-related illnesses..

                                > Biking is slow in good weather and even slower in bad weather

                                In an urban area like a downtown, bicycles are almost universally faster than cars. And in any case, if you moved 10 minutes further from your place of work so that your car trip was 10 minutes longer, would you start being 10 minutes late to work every day?? No, you would leave 10 minutes earlier.

                                > unlike drivers, cyclists are much more susceptible to flat tires.

                                I've been riding my bike for a couple years. I haven't had any real trouble with flat tires in spite of rolling over broken glass, nails, curbs, and all manner of other hazards. Maybe that's because I use heavy duty tires and thick inner tubes, rather than the little paperthin things that the wannabe TdF crowd prefers. If I do get a flat, i'll have had a better record of mechanical problems getting to work than I ever had in a car.

                                > cyclists are much more
                                > susceptible to injury (more lost work time).

                                Not according to insurance agencies and other organizations that have a vested interest in figuring out exactly how to predict how often employees are going to be sick.
                              • Whitney Turner
                                ... Citations, please! This is a useful bit of data, but I can t just drag it in off the top of my head, I must be able to give references. Thanks! Whitney
                                Message 15 of 18 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                  At 02:46 PM 12/29/2009, justice99645 wrote:
                                  > > cyclists are much more
                                  > > susceptible to injury (more lost work time).
                                  >
                                  >Not according to insurance agencies and other organizations that
                                  >have a vested interest in figuring out exactly how to predict how
                                  >often employees are going to be sick.


                                  Citations, please!

                                  This is a useful bit of data, but I can't just drag it in off the top
                                  of my head, I must be able to give references.

                                  Thanks!
                                  Whitney
                                • George Keagle
                                  The bottom line boils down to responsibility. If I am responsible to myself I will count the cost of biking against public transit against driving and make
                                  Message 16 of 18 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                    The bottom line boils down to responsibility.

                                    If I am responsible to myself I will count the cost of biking against public transit against driving and make decisions based upon my findings. I will not "take the easier, softer way" if I want to appropriately augment my resources.

                                    But prior to that I will keep promises agreed and implied to employers, clients, patients and customers. I will make timeliness a major part of my regimen. I'll get to work and appointments on time no matter how far or what means I use to get there.

                                    Priorities interface with responsible decisions: in my case I was just too tight to spend .35 on gasoline. And it was rumored that gas would eventually go as high as 1.00 per gallon! That was my first motivation to bike back in the 70's and 80's. My pat response to those jokesters who ask me about the mileage on my bike: "One bowl of corn flakes!"

                                    Almost as an afterthought after I had started using my bicycle more and my car less I discovered I was healthier -- I felt better, and other than some charley- horses, abrasions and bruises from carelessness and lack of "stick time" on the trail, I was in much better physical condition. I was still in my 40's and had lung damage from the military, but my breathing was much stronger and I was no longer needing anti pneumonia medication -- much to the VA physicians' chagrin. (I tend to observe medical types with the same disdain as I see government types [politicians] -- I accuse 'em all of having "victim mentality". They come across as if we individuals cannot survive without their magnanimous input).

                                    Responsible folks get to work on time. I think most of us here seeking to become car free fit the responsible category.

                                    Geo. Keagle




                                    ________________________________
                                    From: justice99645 <JusticeZero@...>
                                    To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                                    Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 1:46:28 PM
                                    Subject: [CF] Re: Why do most jobs require use of a car?


                                    --- In CarFree@yahoogroups .com, Bob Matter <rjmatter@.. .> wrote:
                                    > Carfree employees = tardy employees.

                                    Not in my experience.

                                    > Long headways are a big problem. If a driver is running 5 minutes
                                    > late, he makes it to work 5 minutes late. If a transit user is
                                    > running 5 minutes late, he misses his train or bus and may have to
                                    > wait an hour or more for the next one.

                                    Except that that hasn't been how it happens. If I run late to catch the bus, I call a taxi. When I take the bus, I get there early. The only time i've been late to work was the time when wires got crossed and I showed up at work 10 minutes early only to find that I was at the wrong location and needed to be on the other side of town.. I was 10 minutes late to work.

                                    < long rant about how much a badly designed and maintained transit system behaves in a worst case scenario >

                                    On occasion, sure. Sometimes cars suffer mechanical failures, sometimes wrecks lock up traffic for hours, and then there's the times that the car driver doesn't make it to work for inactivity-related illnesses..

                                    > Biking is slow in good weather and even slower in bad weather

                                    In an urban area like a downtown, bicycles are almost universally faster than cars. And in any case, if you moved 10 minutes further from your place of work so that your car trip was 10 minutes longer, would you start being 10 minutes late to work every day?? No, you would leave 10 minutes earlier.

                                    > unlike drivers, cyclists are much more susceptible to flat tires.

                                    I've been riding my bike for a couple years. I haven't had any real trouble with flat tires in spite of rolling over broken glass, nails, curbs, and all manner of other hazards. Maybe that's because I use heavy duty tires and thick inner tubes, rather than the little paperthin things that the wannabe TdF crowd prefers. If I do get a flat, i'll have had a better record of mechanical problems getting to work than I ever had in a car.

                                    > cyclists are much more
                                    > susceptible to injury (more lost work time).

                                    Not according to insurance agencies and other organizations that have a vested interest in figuring out exactly how to predict how often employees are going to be sick.







                                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                                  • George Keagle
                                    ________________________________ From: John Mayson To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 4:46:02 PM Subject: Re: [CF] Re:
                                    Message 17 of 18 , Dec 29, 2009
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                                      ________________________________
                                      From: John Mayson <john@...>
                                      To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                                      Sent: Tue, December 29, 2009 4:46:02 PM
                                      Subject: Re: [CF] Re: Why do most jobs require use of a car?


                                      Roads, jobs, socialism, etc.
                                      John Mayson wrote:

                                      "...Usually as soon as someone tosses out "socialism", "right-winger" ,
                                      "hate-monger" , "globalist", etc. the discussion is over. The participant
                                      has nothing else to add to the conversation and defaults to the bag of
                                      stereotypes and buzz words...."
                                      George responds:
                                      John, believe it or not I agree totally with your statement. If and when you see me post one of those "pet labels" it is important to understand I do so with a jaundiced brow -- labels are meaningless in serious conversation (I'm seldom very serious).
                                      Back in my drinking days (35+ years ago) a judge diagnosed me "pathological nonconformist" -- then sentenced me to 30 days in jail, the rat. Later he came into a program we had for guys and gals who want to stop drinking and I became his sponsor until he died some years back. We often laughed about the futility of labels and letting ourselves be outraged by the statements or beliefs of others.

                                      Anybody who takes me seriously has a fool for a foe. Regards,
                                      Geo. Keagle

                                      PS: As I posted recently, avid bike commuters tend to be responsible people.

                                      I would go to an interview if I felt qualified for and interested in the job. If the subject of car ownership is broached by the interviewer I'll say, "I am an avid bike commuter. I will be biking to work." ...and leave it at that. Throw the ball back at the interviewer. If car ownership is a "requirement" let her be responsible for bringing up the issue. The job is not for you anyhow if you are true to your mission of being a bike commuter and car free, and she insists you gotta have a car to take the employment.
                                      ****************************************************************
                                      I strongly disagree not owning a car makes someone a late employee. If
                                      that were the case workers in New York and across Europe would always be
                                      late. I rode my bike part-time for 5 years and full-time for a year and
                                      never was I late. In fact it only took me a few minutes more to get to
                                      work. Minutes. And I remember coworkers missing morning meetings because
                                      of traffic or car problems. Neither were an issue for me.

                                      Usually as soon as someone tosses out "socialism", "right-winger" ,
                                      "hate-monger" , "globalist", etc. the discussion is over. The participant
                                      has nothing else to add to the conversation and defaults to the bag of
                                      stereotypes and buzz words.

                                      I know several recruiters and they have told me too often an admin
                                      assistant in HR will simply cut and paste a job description and add and
                                      delete the critical parts and leave the rest. This is how you end up with
                                      job descriptions insisting a software engineer own a car, or a warehouse
                                      worker have a Master's degree. It's probably not really part of the job
                                      description. An employer shouldn't care HOW you get to work, as long as
                                      you're there on time. Owning a car doesn't guarantee you'll be on time.
                                      Not only is traffic an issue, but many people cannot manage their lives
                                      well enough to be anywhere on time. And what is the expectation anyway?
                                      A late employee run red lights and zip through school zones to be at work
                                      on time?

                                      John

                                      --
                                      John Mayson <john@mayson. us>
                                      http://www.linkedin.com/in/jmayson






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