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Re: [CF] Gosh, is the "G" (God word) that scary bros.?

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  • Steven Schoeffler
    So what do you believe, Mr. Matter? You re defining yourself entirely in negatives. Propose a positive, and I ll shoot it down for you. Cheers, Steve ...
    Message 1 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
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      So what do you believe, Mr. Matter? You're defining yourself entirely
      in negatives. Propose a positive, and I'll shoot it down for you.

      Cheers,

      Steve


      On Dec 1, 2008, at 1:37 AM, Robert J. Matter wrote:

      > -----Original Message-----
      > From: CarFree@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CarFree@yahoogroups.com] On
      > Behalf Of
      > Steven Schoeffler
      > Sent: Sunday, November 30, 2008 10:49 PM
      > To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
      > Subject: Re: [CF] Gosh, is the "G" (God word) that scary bros.?
      >
      > Hey BM,
      >
      > I'll wager you're clinging to superstitions too.
      >
      > BM: Oh yeah? And what might those be?
      >
      > So why not let
      > everyone cling to their own chosen fairy tale? Have a little
      > tolerance.
      >
      > BM: I have zero tolerance for irrational behavior. Logically
      > extended that
      > means I have zero tolerance for religion. I don't observe the taboo
      > against
      > criticizing religion. Why should religion get a pass barring it from
      > criticism and examination any more than any other irrational claim
      > like
      > clairvoyance, communicating with the dead, etc.?
      >
      > BM: I am firmly in the camp of Sam Harris ("The End of Faith", 2004).
      > September 11th ended the era of tolerating religious moderates. If you
      > tolerate moderates, you will automatically get the fundamentalists
      > that come
      > along with them. After all, a moderate is just a failed
      > fundamentalist. I
      > tolerate no irrational behavior, whether it be Muslim, Christian, Jew,
      > Pagan, or whatever.
      >
      > BM: Those of you onlookers who are rational, freethinking, atheists
      > but feel
      > compelled to keep suffering in silence because of pressure from
      > friends and
      > relatives like shiftgood2 and their enablers like Steven
      > Schoeffler, check
      > the Center for Inquiry's and the Brights' web sites to see if there
      > are any
      > chapters of them near you. Every month in Chicago both groups have
      > meetings
      > and get-togethers. You are not alone in your disbelief!
      >
      > -Bob Matter
      > -----------
      > "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the
      > entrails
      > of the last priest." --Denis Diderot
      >
      >
      >



      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Justice McPherson
      ... like ... Because the people rabidly criticizing religion tend to be just as obnoxious and unpleasant as the more rabidly religious folk are whe they
      Message 2 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
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        --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "Robert J. Matter" <rjmatter@...> wrote:
        >
        > -----Original Message-----
        > Subject: Re: [CF] Gosh, is the "G" (God word) that scary bros.?
        > Why should religion get a pass barring it from
        > criticism and examination any more than any other irrational claim
        like
        > clairvoyance, communicating with the dead, etc.?

        Because the people rabidly criticizing religion tend to be just as
        obnoxious and unpleasant as the more rabidly religious folk are whe
        they criticize other religions or the non-religious. Your post, for
        instance, makes *my* hackles raise, and theoretically i'm on your side!
        Imagine how nonproductively hostile a reaction you should expect from
        the people it was actually targeted to offend.
      • Phil Smith
        Frankly, this thread seems wildly off-topic to this list, and should be ended promptly by letting it die. Phil [Non-text portions of this message have been
        Message 3 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
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          Frankly, this thread seems wildly off-topic to this list, and should be ended promptly by letting it die.
          Phil




          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Forrest Brownell
          Tut, tut! Justice McPherson s hackles have been raised by Bob Matter s recent reflections on religion and unreason. This despite the fact that McPherson is
          Message 4 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
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            Tut, tut! Justice McPherson's hackles have been raised by Bob Matter's recent
            reflections on religion and unreason. This despite the fact that McPherson is
            "theoretically" on Matter's side, whatever that might mean (if anything).

            Include me out. I am myself deeply, if somewhat unconventionally, religious, yet
            Matter's matter-of-fact account of the follies of faith doesn't raise so much as
            a pin-feather on my righteous breast. Few of us are completely rational.*
            Therein lies the tragedy of the human condition -- and the joy. I strongly
            suspect that tragedy will carry the day in the end, of course, for all the
            reasons which Matter outlines and for many more besides. Still, this has yet to
            make me a convert to pure logic. A pity, that, but such is human nature. We're
            monkeys at heart, whatever we've managed to make of our heads.

            More to the point, McPherson seems to think it's a critic's job to mollify the
            objects of his criticism. Piffle! Critics are goads, and the prick of a goad is
            never pleasant. That doesn't mean it's not necessary, however. (Has anyone here
            read Stevenson's "Travels with a Donkey"? But I digress.) Let the wounded attend
            to their own hurts, McPherson, old son, and leave the critics, "rabid" or
            otherwise, to do their vital work undisturbed.


            I also can't resist a brief response to Phil Smith, whose concern for the purity
            of discourse on CarFree is affronted by this "wildly off-topic" discussion:
            Poppycock! (I can't use piffle twice in one post, can I?). The wrong-headed
            devotion that Americans (and many others) feel for their cars is
            quasi-religious, if it's nothing else, a triumph of feeling and faith over
            reason. Indeed, car-worship may well be America's unacknowledged state religion.
            It has all the trappings: sacrifice (blood-letting to equal anything the Aztecs
            got up to), great cathedrals (the Rouge River Complex), wayside shrines (the
            ser-sta-gro and its successor, the [in]convenience store), rites of passage (the
            road test, the annual vehicle inspection), and a creed (the Gospel of Happy
            Motoring). There's even a Holy Trinity (Ford, GM, and Chrysler, though these Old
            Gods are now sadly diminished) and a Paradise of sorts (the annual Detroit Motor
            Show, complete with celestial lights and vestal virgins). In fact, when you
            think of it, the daily commute is a sort of Pilgrim's Progress in reverse, a
            painful journey from the Celestial City of hearth and home to the dark alleys of
            the City of Destruction -- always assuming that the hapless commuter survives
            his (or her) transit of the Valley of the Shadow of Death, that is.

            Of course religion is relevant to the work of CarFreedom's good evangels! We are
            engaged in a struggle against evil, after all, and ours is the One True Faith,
            is it not? To think otherwise would be rank heresy.


            Ah, well. This has been fun, but I have work of my own to do.

            In the name of Our Ford, go now in peace and preach the Gospel of Liberation
            unto the motor-shackled multitude. Amend.


            * Matter may be the rare exception here. If so, more power to him, and may his
            tribe increase.
          • shiftgood2
            ... be ended promptly by letting it die. ... normally bicker about. The only difference between leaders and the ones led, is; today they cannot make
            Message 5 of 11 , Dec 1, 2008
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              --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, Phil Smith <philrobertovich@...> wrote:
              >
              > Frankly, this thread seems wildly off-topic to this list, and should
              be ended promptly by letting it die.
              > Phil
              >
              > Phil, I agree, except that the die part is also a thing to
              normally "bicker" about. "The only difference between leaders and the
              ones led, is; today they cannot make promises without conditions" -
              Shiftgood2 If I am a good leader as are, the bicycle people, we will
              get a few extra problems. Good job, again, Phil. (Oh...a..by the way,
              Phil, you can expect a few little extra problems for this lead).
              Again, I am not being cynical or sarcastic. No freeky geeky- PTL.
              >
              > *******
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
            • shiftgood2
              ... Matter s recent ... McPherson is ... anything). ... religious, yet ... raise so much as ... rational.* ... strongly ... all the ... this has yet to ...
              Message 6 of 11 , Dec 7, 2008
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                --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, Forrest Brownell <forrest@...> wrote:
                >
                > Tut, tut! Justice McPherson's hackles have been raised by Bob
                Matter's recent
                > reflections on religion and unreason. This despite the fact that
                McPherson is
                > "theoretically" on Matter's side, whatever that might mean (if
                anything).
                >
                > Include me out. I am myself deeply, if somewhat unconventionally,
                religious, yet
                > Matter's matter-of-fact account of the follies of faith doesn't
                raise so much as
                > a pin-feather on my righteous breast. Few of us are completely
                rational.*
                > Therein lies the tragedy of the human condition -- and the joy. I
                strongly
                > suspect that tragedy will carry the day in the end, of course, for
                all the
                > reasons which Matter outlines and for many more besides. Still,
                this has yet to
                > make me a convert to pure logic. A pity, that, but such is human
                nature. We're
                > monkeys at heart, whatever we've managed to make of our heads.
                >
                > More to the point, McPherson seems to think it's a critic's job to
                mollify the
                > objects of his criticism. Piffle! Critics are goads, and the prick
                of a goad is
                > never pleasant. That doesn't mean it's not necessary, however. (Has
                anyone here
                > read Stevenson's "Travels with a Donkey"? But I digress.) Let the
                wounded attend
                > to their own hurts, McPherson, old son, and leave the
                critics, "rabid" or
                > otherwise, to do their vital work undisturbed.
                >
                >
                > I also can't resist a brief response to Phil Smith, whose concern
                for the purity
                > of discourse on CarFree is affronted by this "wildly off-topic"
                discussion:
                > Poppycock! (I can't use piffle twice in one post, can I?). The
                wrong-headed
                > devotion that Americans (and many others) feel for their cars is
                > quasi-religious, if it's nothing else, a triumph of feeling and
                faith over
                > reason. Indeed, car-worship may well be America's unacknowledged
                state religion.
                > It has all the trappings: sacrifice (blood-letting to equal
                anything the Aztecs
                > got up to), great cathedrals (the Rouge River Complex), wayside
                shrines (the
                > ser-sta-gro and its successor, the [in]convenience store), rites of
                passage (the
                > road test, the annual vehicle inspection), and a creed (the Gospel
                of Happy
                > Motoring). There's even a Holy Trinity (Ford, GM, and Chrysler,
                though these Old
                > Gods are now sadly diminished) and a Paradise of sorts (the annual
                Detroit Motor
                > Show, complete with celestial lights and vestal virgins). In fact,
                when you
                > think of it, the daily commute is a sort of Pilgrim's Progress in
                reverse, a
                > painful journey from the Celestial City of hearth and home to the
                dark alleys of
                > the City of Destruction -- always assuming that the hapless
                commuter survives
                > his (or her) transit of the Valley of the Shadow of Death, that is.
                >
                > Of course religion is relevant to the work of CarFreedom's good
                evangels! We are
                > engaged in a struggle against evil, after all, and ours is the One
                True Faith,
                > is it not? To think otherwise would be rank heresy.
                >
                >
                > Ah, well. This has been fun, but I have work of my own to do.
                >
                > In the name of Our Ford, go now in peace and preach the Gospel of
                Liberation
                > unto the motor-shackled multitude. Amend.
                >
                >
                > * Matter may be the rare exception here. If so, more power to him,
                and may his
                > tribe increase.
                >
                >
                > If leaders can lead anywhere, ESPECAILLY US SLOW GUYS, without
                >getting it a little, let me know, I will follow you anywhere.
                > As leaders, Bikes are NO. 1! No other means of transportation is
                >truely better for lack of illusions, damage, and taking it from each
                >other while maintaining love for each other. What does that have to
                >do with the return by Forrest? You got to get a little bit of flack
                >for that good return Forrest- YOU no. 1 too bro. :O) ptL. no freeky
                >geeky. :O)
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
                >
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