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Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...

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  • Rebecca Jackson
    Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and family into giving up their cars (I haven t actually tried), but I think the AA motto of one
    Message 1 of 15 , Jul 28, 2007
      Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and family
      into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the AA
      motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
      Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck of
      a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them to
      get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to give
      up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the end,
      people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed, at
      least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
      too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a day
      in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train, enjoys
      each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be watching
      the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and rushing
      isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car will
      get them door to door in less total time).

      That's my two cents,

      Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

      ----- Original Message -----
      From: Sahar
      To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
      Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
      Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)



      in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
      one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
      claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
      wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
      We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
      with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
      My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
      claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
      fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
      gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
      Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
      places without one, despte decent PT.
      Sigh

      Shyrley

      The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
      dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
      life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
      the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

      Hubert H. Humphrey

      ---------------------------------
      Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
      sign up for your freeaccount today.

      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





      Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
      http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240.flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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    • eileen
      Hi Rebecca, thanks for this reasonable response. I ve tried to articulate what you said, but was never able to! I fully agree that helping people to figure
      Message 2 of 15 , Jul 28, 2007
        Hi Rebecca, thanks for this reasonable response. I've tried to articulate what you said, but was never able to! I fully agree that helping people to figure out small steps that fit their life is much more likely to be successful than a whole-hog approach.

        e
        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Rebecca Jackson
        To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
        Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:03 PM
        Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...


        Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and family
        into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the AA
        motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
        Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck of
        a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them to
        get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to give
        up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the end,
        people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed, at
        least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
        too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a day
        in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train, enjoys
        each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be watching
        the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and rushing
        isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car will
        get them door to door in less total time).

        That's my two cents,

        Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

        ----- Original Message -----
        From: Sahar
        To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
        Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)

        in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
        one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
        claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
        wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
        We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
        with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
        My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
        claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
        fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
        gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
        Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
        places without one, despte decent PT.
        Sigh

        Shyrley

        The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
        dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
        life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
        the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

        Hubert H. Humphrey

        ---------------------------------
        Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
        sign up for your freeaccount today.

        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

        Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
        http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Sahar
        MIL does do London trips by PT cos its quicker (we never visit anyhow cos she rejected my disabled daughter) but she drives to walking holidays and cycle rides
        Message 3 of 15 , Jul 28, 2007
          MIL does do London trips by PT cos its quicker (we never visit anyhow cos she rejected my disabled daughter) but she drives to walking holidays and cycle rides almost daily. Even whenw e were both at a home education camp last week she drove into the village 3 or 4 times a day 'for something to do'. Think she's a lost cause.
          In a way, having a wheelchaired child means that we never have to be in a car because 99.9% of poeple's cars cannot take a wheelchair. Daughter must remain in the chair as she's too disabled for a car seat and her wheelchair doesn't fold up small enough to fit in anything.
          I'm trying to remember what made me car free. I used one on and off until we moved to the US where I found I had to use one for too many things. North VA doesn't have pavements (sidewalks) let alone buses. Even though the shops were quarter mile away it meant walking beside an 8 lane highway on the grass verge and then dasing across 8 lanes cos there were no crossings. Gradually I came to loathe cars from being ambivalent. Only time I wished we had one was the last time daughter was in hospital. I had to catch the bus there and back 3 times (couldn't leave the other kids for too long) so spent nearly 5 hours on a bus each day! Then we had to pay 20 quid for a taxi home when she was released. When you're taken off by ambulance they don't give you a ride back home again!
          But it would never be worth having a car just for those inconvenient times as its only a couple of times amonth.

          S
          Rebecca Jackson <teasel@...> wrote:
          Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and family
          into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the AA
          motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
          Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck of
          a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them to
          get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to give
          up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the end,
          people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed, at
          least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
          too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a day
          in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train, enjoys
          each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be watching
          the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and rushing
          isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car will
          get them door to door in less total time).

          That's my two cents,

          Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

          ----- Original Message -----
          From: Sahar
          To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
          Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
          Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)

          in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
          one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
          claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
          wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
          We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
          with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
          My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
          claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
          fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
          gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
          Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
          places without one, despte decent PT.
          Sigh

          Shyrley

          The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
          dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
          life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
          the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

          Hubert H. Humphrey

          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
          sign up for your freeaccount today.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

          Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
          http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240.flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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          The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . . the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

          Hubert H. Humphrey

          ---------------------------------
          Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Sahar
          But don t you think if its not there it wont be used but if a car is sitting outside it would be too tempting to say oh, just this once... S eileen
          Message 4 of 15 , Jul 28, 2007
            But don't you think if its not there it wont be used but if a car is sitting outside it would be too tempting to say 'oh, just this once...'

            S

            eileen <eileenbyrnes@...> wrote:
            Hi Rebecca, thanks for this reasonable response. I've tried to articulate what you said, but was never able to! I fully agree that helping people to figure out small steps that fit their life is much more likely to be successful than a whole-hog approach.

            e
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Rebecca Jackson
            To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:03 PM
            Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...

            Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and family
            into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the AA
            motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
            Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck of
            a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them to
            get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to give
            up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the end,
            people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed, at
            least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
            too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a day
            in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train, enjoys
            each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be watching
            the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and rushing
            isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car will
            get them door to door in less total time).

            That's my two cents,

            Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Sahar
            To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
            Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
            Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)

            in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
            one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
            claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
            wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
            We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
            with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
            My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
            claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
            fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
            gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
            Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
            places without one, despte decent PT.
            Sigh

            Shyrley

            The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
            dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
            life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
            the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

            Hubert H. Humphrey

            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
            sign up for your freeaccount today.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
            http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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            Get a FREE E-mail Account Today - Choose From 100+ Domains

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






            The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . . the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

            Hubert H. Humphrey

            ---------------------------------
            Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • eileen
            Yes, that is certainly true. BUT - you have to get people to a starting point; few are willing to even consider giving up a car since the idea is so very
            Message 5 of 15 , Jul 28, 2007
              Yes, that is certainly true. BUT - you have to get people to a starting point; few are willing to even consider giving up a car since the idea is so very impossible to them. If they realize that they can still live their life without a car by giving it a try in small ways, they may be willing to do it. Some people can go "cold turkey", but most of us need a more conservative approach. This is true for most things in life, I have found.

              e

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sahar
              To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:52 PM
              Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...


              But don't you think if its not there it wont be used but if a car is sitting outside it would be too tempting to say 'oh, just this once...'

              S

              eileen <eileenbyrnes@...> wrote:
              Hi Rebecca, thanks for this reasonable response. I've tried to articulate what you said, but was never able to! I fully agree that helping people to figure out small steps that fit their life is much more likely to be successful than a whole-hog approach.

              e
              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Rebecca Jackson
              To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
              Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:03 PM
              Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...

              Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and family
              into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the AA
              motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
              Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck of
              a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them to
              get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to give
              up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the end,
              people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed, at
              least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
              too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a day
              in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train, enjoys
              each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be watching
              the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and rushing
              isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car will
              get them door to door in less total time).

              That's my two cents,

              Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

              ----- Original Message -----
              From: Sahar
              To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
              Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
              Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)

              in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
              one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
              claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
              wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
              We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
              with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
              My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
              claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
              fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
              gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
              Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
              places without one, despte decent PT.
              Sigh

              Shyrley

              The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
              dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
              life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
              the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

              Hubert H. Humphrey

              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
              sign up for your freeaccount today.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
              http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

              The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of life . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . . the sick . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

              Hubert H. Humphrey

              ---------------------------------
              Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your freeaccount today.

              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





              [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
            • Rebecca Jackson
              There, I certainly agree: people who don t have access to cars don t use them. But I can t (and don t want to) take cars from people without their consent,
              Message 6 of 15 , Jul 28, 2007
                There, I certainly agree: people who don't have access to cars don't use
                them. But I can't (and don't want to) take cars from people without
                their consent, and it's really hard to convince people to give things up
                when they think they need them. I'm not arguing that it's better to own
                a car and try to resist the temptation to use it; I'm arguing that the
                most effective way to show people that they don't actually _need_
                something is to ask them to try giving it up temporarily. So I love bike
                to work week, and Chicago's BikeWinter workshops that teach people how to
                bike in wet weather on slick streets. I give preference in my shopping
                to businesses with bike racks and small or no parking lot, and I tell
                them so. When I am invited to an event for which driving directions are
                provided, I often respond by offering directions on local transit/ bike
                paths. I favor tolls and gasoline taxes high enough to bear the full
                cost of maintaining the road system (and would favor taxes high enough to
                bear the costs of asthma disease deaths and global warming if I had any
                idea how to quantify such tragedies)...

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sahar
                To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
                Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:52:49 +0100 (BST)

                But don't you think if its not there it wont be used but if a car is
                sitting outside it would be too tempting to say 'oh, just this
                once...'

                S

                eileen <eileenbyrnes@...> wrote:
                Hi Rebecca, thanks for this reasonable response. I've tried to
                articulate what you said, but was never able to! I fully agree that
                helping people to figure out small steps that fit their life is much
                more likely to be successful than a whole-hog approach.

                e
                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Rebecca Jackson
                To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:03 PM
                Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...

                Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and
                family
                into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the
                AA
                motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
                Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck
                of
                a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them
                to
                get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to
                give
                up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the
                end,
                people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed,
                at
                least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
                too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a
                day
                in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train,
                enjoys
                each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be
                watching
                the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and
                rushing
                isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car
                will
                get them door to door in less total time).

                That's my two cents,

                Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

                ----- Original Message -----
                From: Sahar
                To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
                Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)

                in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
                one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
                claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
                wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
                We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
                with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
                My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
                claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
                fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
                gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
                Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
                places without one, despte decent PT.
                Sigh

                Shyrley

                The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
                dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
                life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
                the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                Hubert H. Humphrey

                ---------------------------------
                Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
                sign up for your freeaccount today.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from
                CourtTV:
                http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
                dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
                life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
                the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                Hubert H. Humphrey

                ---------------------------------
                Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
                sign up for your freeaccount today.

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
                http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240.flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              • Sahar
                Maybe cars are an addiction like any other? You wouldn t leave heroin witha drug addict and then try and convince them not to use it. Sometimes I think the
                Message 7 of 15 , Jul 28, 2007
                  Maybe cars are an addiction like any other? You wouldn't leave heroin witha drug addict and then try and convince them not to use it.
                  Sometimes I think the only way to decrease car use is through draconian measures. Car use is still rising. How long can this go on?

                  S

                  Rebecca Jackson <teasel@...> wrote:
                  There, I certainly agree: people who don't have access to cars don't use
                  them. But I can't (and don't want to) take cars from people without
                  their consent, and it's really hard to convince people to give things up
                  when they think they need them. I'm not arguing that it's better to own
                  a car and try to resist the temptation to use it; I'm arguing that the
                  most effective way to show people that they don't actually _need_
                  something is to ask them to try giving it up temporarily. So I love bike
                  to work week, and Chicago's BikeWinter workshops that teach people how to
                  bike in wet weather on slick streets. I give preference in my shopping
                  to businesses with bike racks and small or no parking lot, and I tell
                  them so. When I am invited to an event for which driving directions are
                  provided, I often respond by offering directions on local transit/ bike
                  paths. I favor tolls and gasoline taxes high enough to bear the full
                  cost of maintaining the road system (and would favor taxes high enough to
                  bear the costs of asthma disease deaths and global warming if I had any
                  idea how to quantify such tragedies)...

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sahar
                  To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
                  Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:52:49 +0100 (BST)

                  But don't you think if its not there it wont be used but if a car is
                  sitting outside it would be too tempting to say 'oh, just this
                  once...'

                  S

                  eileen <eileenbyrnes@...> wrote:
                  Hi Rebecca, thanks for this reasonable response. I've tried to
                  articulate what you said, but was never able to! I fully agree that
                  helping people to figure out small steps that fit their life is much
                  more likely to be successful than a whole-hog approach.

                  e
                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Rebecca Jackson
                  To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                  Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:03 PM
                  Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...

                  Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and
                  family
                  into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the
                  AA
                  motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
                  Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck
                  of
                  a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them
                  to
                  get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to
                  give
                  up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the
                  end,
                  people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed,
                  at
                  least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
                  too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a
                  day
                  in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train,
                  enjoys
                  each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be
                  watching
                  the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and
                  rushing
                  isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car
                  will
                  get them door to door in less total time).

                  That's my two cents,

                  Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

                  ----- Original Message -----
                  From: Sahar
                  To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
                  Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)

                  in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
                  one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
                  claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
                  wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
                  We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
                  with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
                  My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
                  claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
                  fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
                  gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
                  Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
                  places without one, despte decent PT.
                  Sigh

                  Shyrley

                  The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
                  dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
                  life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
                  the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                  Hubert H. Humphrey

                  ---------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
                  dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
                  life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
                  the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                  Hubert H. Humphrey

                  ---------------------------------
                  Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
                  sign up for your freeaccount today.

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
                  http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240.flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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                  The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . . the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                  Hubert H. Humphrey

                  ---------------------------------
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                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                • eileen
                  And like any other addiction, the user will not stop using until THEY decide to stop. So why not try an approach that is more effective than draconian
                  Message 8 of 15 , Jul 29, 2007
                    And like any other addiction, the user will not stop using until THEY decide to stop. So why not try an approach that is more effective than draconian measures: teach people how to live without a car? Encourage our governments to make it easier to live without a car, and change the perception that driving a car is the norm, to living *without* a car is the norm. There are lots of things that we can do, but it is going to take time. Here in the US, there are plenty of people who absolutely cannot live without a car, since they live in suburbs that are too dangerous to walk or bike in. So we can encourage better land use, better transit, and insist on bike lanes for all roads and off street bike paths. I think that this approach is a lot more likely to work.

                    I don't have a car, but I do use the car share occasionally, and I don't apologize for that. Like you say, S, having the car in the driveway does make it more likely that I will use it. I'm happy with my choice, and tell others that it might work for them as well. It is reasonable accommodation.

                    e


                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sahar
                    To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Sunday, July 29, 2007 2:43 AM
                    Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...


                    Maybe cars are an addiction like any other? You wouldn't leave heroin witha drug addict and then try and convince them not to use it.
                    Sometimes I think the only way to decrease car use is through draconian measures. Car use is still rising. How long can this go on?

                    S

                    Rebecca Jackson <teasel@...> wrote:
                    There, I certainly agree: people who don't have access to cars don't use
                    them. But I can't (and don't want to) take cars from people without
                    their consent, and it's really hard to convince people to give things up
                    when they think they need them. I'm not arguing that it's better to own
                    a car and try to resist the temptation to use it; I'm arguing that the
                    most effective way to show people that they don't actually _need_
                    something is to ask them to try giving it up temporarily. So I love bike
                    to work week, and Chicago's BikeWinter workshops that teach people how to
                    bike in wet weather on slick streets. I give preference in my shopping
                    to businesses with bike racks and small or no parking lot, and I tell
                    them so. When I am invited to an event for which driving directions are
                    provided, I often respond by offering directions on local transit/ bike
                    paths. I favor tolls and gasoline taxes high enough to bear the full
                    cost of maintaining the road system (and would favor taxes high enough to
                    bear the costs of asthma disease deaths and global warming if I had any
                    idea how to quantify such tragedies)...

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sahar
                    To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
                    Date: Sat, 28 Jul 2007 19:52:49 +0100 (BST)

                    But don't you think if its not there it wont be used but if a car is
                    sitting outside it would be too tempting to say 'oh, just this
                    once...'

                    S

                    eileen <eileenbyrnes@...> wrote:
                    Hi Rebecca, thanks for this reasonable response. I've tried to
                    articulate what you said, but was never able to! I fully agree that
                    helping people to figure out small steps that fit their life is much
                    more likely to be successful than a whole-hog approach.

                    e
                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Rebecca Jackson
                    To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                    Sent: Saturday, July 28, 2007 2:03 PM
                    Subject: Re: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...

                    Not that I personally have had any success talking my friends and
                    family
                    into giving up their cars (I haven't actually tried), but I think the
                    AA
                    motto of "one day at a time" is the way to go. The Great American
                    Smoke-Out doesn't ask people to quit smoking forever (which is a heck
                    of
                    a commitment to make when you're addicted) but just challenges them
                    to
                    get through one day. The Buy Local Challenge doesn't ask people to
                    give
                    up long-distance foods forever, just to try it for a week. In the
                    end,
                    people figure out HOW to do without this thing they thought needed,
                    at
                    least temporarily, and maybe get a feel for what the advantages were,
                    too. So maybe, next time you visit the in-laws in London, you plan a
                    day
                    in which the whole family takes a trip to several stops by train,
                    enjoys
                    each other's company during the trip (because no one has to be
                    watching
                    the road, or sober, or whatever it is that will appeal...) and
                    rushing
                    isn't necessary (because they're probably right that a private car
                    will
                    get them door to door in less total time).

                    That's my two cents,

                    Rebecca (who just ended more than a decade of being car free)

                    ----- Original Message -----
                    From: Sahar
                    To: CarFree@yahoogroups.com
                    Subject: [CF] Anyone ever had any sucess...
                    Date: Fri, 27 Jul 2007 08:05:22 +0100 (BST)

                    in getting anyone to go car free? Despite a year of car-freeness not
                    one of my friends or family has even considered it. Sigh. They all
                    claim its impossible yet if I can do it with 4 kids, one in a
                    wheelchair and me disabled then anyone can!
                    We even went ona family holiday across the country using the train
                    with wheelchair child plus piles of camping gear.
                    My mum is 72, lives with her sister in a city with lots of buses but
                    claims she needs a car. The in-laws live in London yet drive daily to
                    fetch things that are less than a mile away (Mother in law says she
                    gets impatient on buses cos they are slow)
                    Its like they are welded to their cars and can't envisage how to get
                    places without one, despte decent PT.
                    Sigh

                    Shyrley

                    The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
                    dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
                    life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
                    the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                    Hubert H. Humphrey

                    ---------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
                    sign up for your freeaccount today.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from
                    CourtTV:
                    http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the
                    dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of
                    life . . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . .
                    the sick . . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                    Hubert H. Humphrey

                    ---------------------------------
                    Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less,
                    sign up for your freeaccount today.

                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    Still think you live in a democracy? Check out this clip from CourtTV:
                    http://bradblog.com/video/flvplayer/FlvPlayer.html?file=http://www.ameratsu.com/media/2006/0607/w2/crt_ccl_bilbray_busby_rigging_060711a_320x240flv&width=320&height=240&OrigWidth=320&OrigHeight=240

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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                    The moral test of government is how it treats those who are in the dawn of life . . . the children; those who are in the twilight of life . . the elderly; and those who are in the shadow of life . . . the sick . . the needy . . . and the disabled.

                    Hubert H. Humphrey

                    ---------------------------------
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                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]





                    [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                  • Jym Dyer
                    ... =v= Or find a substitute. So I guess bicycles are methadone for car addicts. Car-sharing services, supposedly-eco-cars, etc. are codeine, I guess. =v=
                    Message 9 of 15 , Jul 29, 2007
                      > And like any other addiction, the user will not stop using
                      > until THEY decide to stop.

                      =v= Or find a substitute. So I guess bicycles are methadone
                      for car addicts. Car-sharing services, supposedly-eco-cars,
                      etc. are codeine, I guess.

                      =v= But seriously, the "addiction" metaphor and tropes about
                      personal choice only address a small piece of the puzzle. What
                      we're actually dealing with is a society that shoves cars down
                      our throats at every turn and actively discourages other modes.
                      <_Jym_>
                    • John A. Ardelli
                      ... http://tinyurl.com/2o2jpe John A. Ardelli http://pedalingprince.blogspot.com
                      Message 10 of 15 , Aug 21, 2007
                        On Jul 28, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Sahar wrote:

                        > [My daughter's] wheelchair doesn't fold up small enough to fit in
                        > anything.

                        http://tinyurl.com/2o2jpe

                        John A. Ardelli
                        http://pedalingprince.blogspot.com
                      • John A. Ardelli
                        ... As a former heavy drinker, I can vouch for that. ... And get cyclists killed... http://www.cyclelicio.us/2007/05/dangers-of-bike-lanes.html John A. Ardelli
                        Message 11 of 15 , Aug 21, 2007
                          On Jul 29, 2007, at 9:19 AM, eileen wrote:

                          > And like any other addiction, the user will not stop using until THEY
                          > decide to stop.

                          As a former heavy drinker, I can vouch for that.

                          > [W]e can . . . insist on bike lanes for all roads . . . I think that
                          > this approach is a lot more likely to work.

                          And get cyclists killed...

                          http://www.cyclelicio.us/2007/05/dangers-of-bike-lanes.html

                          John A. Ardelli
                          http://pedalingprince.blogspot.com
                        • Jym Dyer
                          ... =v= The car use = addiction model has some value, but in this regard the metaphor completely falls apart. People are not addicted to cars because of a
                          Message 12 of 15 , Aug 21, 2007
                            >> And like any other addiction, the user will not stop using
                            >> until THEY decide to stop.
                            > As a former heavy drinker, I can vouch for that.

                            =v= The "car use = addiction" model has some value, but in
                            this regard the metaphor completely falls apart. People are
                            not "addicted" to cars because of a lack of will so much as
                            a society structured around them.
                            <_Jym_>
                          • Sahar
                            Thanks John but she couldn t sit in that. Her wheelchair is for complex seating needs with headrest and body strap because she can t actually sit as she s
                            Message 13 of 15 , Aug 22, 2007
                              Thanks John but she couldn't sit in that. Her wheelchair is for complex seating needs with headrest and body strap because she can't actually sit as she's severely disabled. Those sort don't fold up. She can't even hold her head up.

                              S

                              "John A. Ardelli" <gelfling@...> wrote:
                              On Jul 28, 2007, at 3:51 PM, Sahar wrote:

                              > [My daughter's] wheelchair doesn't fold up small enough to fit in
                              > anything.

                              http://tinyurl.com/2o2jpe

                              John A. Ardelli
                              http://pedalingprince.blogspot.com


                              Problem? Email: CarFree-owners@yahoogroups.com

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                              "Whoever has two coats must share with anyone who has none; and whoever has food must do likewise."
                              Luke 3:11

                              ---------------------------------
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                            • Sahar
                              Jym Dyer wrote: =v= The car use = addiction model has some value, but in this regard the metaphor completely falls apart. People are not
                              Message 14 of 15 , Aug 22, 2007
                                Jym Dyer <jym@...> wrote:

                                =v= The "car use = addiction" model has some value, but in
                                this regard the metaphor completely falls apart. People are
                                not "addicted" to cars because of a lack of will so much as
                                a society structured around them.
                                <_Jym_>



                                Its like everything is set up to make your addiction easier. Poor public transport, more roads being built, all your mates going 'go on, get another car....'
                                But I think there are car addicts too. Young men who go cruising around in them rather than just using the machine to get from A to B. Those who talk about speed and get that glazed look when discussing torque (I've no idea what that is but blokes always discuss it with regard to cars)
                                Then there are those who couldn't imagine walking a mile and taking the car. They come up with 'but I have a child' or 'but walking is dangerous' and if you demolsih their excuses they get all panicky and defensive. Thats a sign of addiction.

                                S


                                "Whoever has two coats must share with anyone who has none; and whoever has food must do likewise."
                                Luke 3:11

                                ---------------------------------
                                For ideas on reducing your carbon footprint visit Yahoo! For Good this month.

                                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
                              • John A. Ardelli
                                ... Hm... I guess that makes me addicted to my bike, then, because I like to cruise around on my BIKE rather than just using it to get from A to B (though it
                                Message 15 of 15 , Aug 22, 2007
                                  On Aug 22, 2007, at 4:44 AM, Sahar wrote:

                                  > I think there are car addicts too. Young men who go cruising around in
                                  > them rather than just using the machine to get from A to B.

                                  Hm... I guess that makes me addicted to my bike, then, because I like
                                  to cruise around on my BIKE rather than just using it to get from A to
                                  B (though it does plenty of THAT, too).

                                  Better addicted to the bike than addicted to the alcohol, I guess.

                                  > Those who talk about speed and get that glazed look when discussing
                                  > torque (I've no idea what that is but blokes always discuss it with
                                  > regard to cars)

                                  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Torque

                                  In layman's terms, torque is the amount of driving force applied to the
                                  drive wheel or wheels of a vehicle. Bicycles, too, have torque. The
                                  more torque you have, the greater the force the wheel of the vehicle
                                  can deliver.

                                  To understand torque, think of it this way. On a bicycle, the lower
                                  you shift your gears, the more torque you have available which allows
                                  you to pull more weight or climb a steeper grade. In higher gears, you
                                  have less torque so, although your wheel will turn faster for a given
                                  cadence, it takes much more force on the pedals to get the wheel to
                                  turn.

                                  Clear as mud? :)

                                  John A. Ardelli
                                  http://pedalingprince.blogspot.com
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