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Re: Sigh ... they still don't get it

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  • Christopher Lauinger
    Curtailment of the use of oil, or fossil fuels in general, is not likely to keep any more C02 from being released into the atmosphere, then would be otherwise.
    Message 1 of 11 , Jul 10, 2006
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      Curtailment of the use of oil, or fossil fuels in general, is not
      likely to keep any more C02 from being released into the atmosphere,
      then would be otherwise. This is based on one simple fact: if you
      don't burn it, then somebody else will. That means it does not matter
      whether you drive a Hummer, or a Prius, or if you ride a bicycle, or
      if you walk (as I do) as your primary from of transport. Every bit of
      C02 bound energy that is extractable is going to be extracted and used
      by somebody at some time. This is based on the premise that there will
      be no viable substitute for fossil energy. And it is with the
      expectaion that there will be no unforeseen catastrophe that wipes out
      the human race of the face of the Earth before we burn all the oil,
      gas & coal. It is therefore pointless to change ones behavior in use
      of energy solely on the desire to change the direction of the flow of
      sequestered carbon.

      IMO, the focus instead should be on how we use hydrocarbons and what
      kind of civilization we build with it. That is a question as to how we
      may re-sequester the spent C02 (if at all possible), how we mitigate
      climate change when it happens and what kind of legacy we leave behind
      when all the easy energy is gone.

      The legacy issue seems to me to be paramount in all of this. Fossil
      energy should be the platform for which humanity could build a more
      permanent form of higher energy-- namely that of renewable solar
      harvesting form. This strategy can insure that industrial civilization
      will go on indefinitely-- well beyond the fossil fuel supply. The next
      issue within the legacy realm would have to do with the way we build
      our oil based development to be in harmony with nature. That means the
      human population should not go beyond a post fossil fuel limit. It
      also means we don't destroy nature as we try to live apart from it.
      And lastly, fossil fuel energy itself should last as long as possible
      in order to have a more careful use of it and to be sure to have it
      when climate change creates the need. (Please note that the car
      culture is a great setback in within all three points regarding
      "legacy" that I just outlined.)

      Now some may say that approach toward civilization is very difficult
      to make happen, due to the central nature of the human animal or our
      cultural & political inertia. That may be debatable. But the notion
      that anybody can redirect the course of C02 induced climate change
      simply by leaving oil for others to burn is an impossible idea.


      --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "Lauren Cooper \(DancesWithCars\)"
      <cyclemedia@...> wrote:
      >
      > Sigh ... they still don't get it...
      > >>> Tom Brokaw, host of "Global Warming: What You Need to Know," ....
      > tried to alter some habits to save fossil fuels: changing light
      fixtures in
      > his homes, for example. He owns a hybrid car, and so do both of his
      > daughters. "It's not affecting our lifestyle at all, not one whit," he
      > said. <<<
      >
      > Sheesh. Talk about a state of denial. We're finally getting
      americans to
      > accept that the global environment is being destroyed: but they're still
      > convinced they can solve it without any significant change in their
      lives.
      >
      >
      > Sometimes I fantasize about a law requiring all auto emissions to be
      piped
      > back inside the offending vehicle. Take about 3 minutes of
      breathing their
      > own fumes to convince them that way!
      >
      > DancesWithCars
      >
      > __________________________________________________
      > Do You Yahoo!?
      > Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around
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    • whistling_lass
      ... I m curious about that. Do you work, and if so, how far do you walk to work? What s the farthest you ve walked one way? And since I m female, please
      Message 2 of 11 , Jul 10, 2006
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        --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Lauinger"
        <dub_scratch@...> wrote:
        >
        > That means it does not matter
        > whether you drive a Hummer, or a Prius, or if you ride a bicycle, or
        > if you walk (as I do) as your primary from of transport.

        I'm curious about that. Do you work, and if so, how far do you walk to
        work? What's the farthest you've walked one way? And since I'm
        female, please give the answer both in miles (male brain) and the time
        it took (female brain).

        What other modes of transport do you use, and what is your criteria for
        using them as opposed to walking?

        Marcy
      • Christopher Lauinger
        ... Yes I work and my job is three blocks away ... I don t know. Perhaps 3 miles, or 45 minuets ... That s funny, my male brain measures my travels on foot by
        Message 3 of 11 , Jul 11, 2006
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          --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "whistling_lass" <bonobo@...> wrote:
          >
          > --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Lauinger"
          > <dub_scratch@> wrote:
          > >
          > > That means it does not matter
          > > whether you drive a Hummer, or a Prius, or if you ride a bicycle, or
          > > if you walk (as I do) as your primary from of transport.
          >
          > I'm curious about that. Do you work, and if so, how far do you walk to
          > work?

          Yes I work and my job is three blocks away

          >What's the farthest you've walked one way?

          I don't know. Perhaps 3 miles, or 45 minuets

          > And since I'm
          > female, please give the answer both in miles (male brain) and the time
          > it took (female brain).

          That's funny, my male brain measures my travels on foot by the time while I ignore the
          distance.



          > What other modes of transport do you use, and what is your criteria for
          > using them as opposed to walking?

          I travel primarily by walking-- about 95% of my trips. I do use bike a little but not much. If
          I have to go far or if I have to carry a heavy load then I have a car.

          Some on this board think that makes me not carfree. I disagree because the main
          functions of my life's travels are 100% dependent on my own feet. The very little I do drive
          (last year 500 miles) I could live without if I had to.


          > Marcy
          >
        • ensignaurora
          ... somewhat ... cling ... planet? ... A couple of things. First of all, it s your definition that they are putting their ego and status above the planet. It
          Message 4 of 11 , Jul 12, 2006
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            --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "whistling_lass" <bonobo@...> wrote:
            >
            > --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "Jim Gagnepain"
            > <oil_free_and_happy@> wrote:
            > >
            > << Although I'm not ready to do cartwheels in my backyard, I'm
            somewhat
            > encouraged by Brokaw's comments. >>
            >
            > Me. too. I mean, a hybrid is better than an SUV. So many people
            cling
            > stubbornly to their SUV's. It's like how bad can a person's self-
            > esteem be that they're putting their ego and status above the
            planet?
            >
            > Marcy
            >

            A couple of things.

            First of all, it's your definition that they are putting their ego
            and status above the planet. It may not be theirs. Ie, they may be
            driving a small SUV because they figured that was all they needed
            for their life, their requirements, and ego and status had very
            little to do with it. Yet, by the simple fact that it is a SUV, they
            are condemned with those who drive the ones you can hunt elephants
            with. At that point, heaping everyone together, one isn't likely to
            change their mind but rather, steel them against.

            Secondly, let's say I do give up my car, SUV or otherwise. I forego
            all my responsibilities to save the planet, the much greater good. I
            am not able to respond to my mother's needs, I perhaps watch her die
            an early death. The world is not likely to respond to me by enabling
            me to get trained the way I see that my life can make a difference.
            I'm there to help the planet ............ but in return, the planet
            is not there to help me (does Earth really need humans, after all?).
            But I can rest assure that even though my life will probably be much
            bitterly different, my contribution will be helpful to another
            perhaps somewhere else ........... even if that another isn't
            helpful to me in turn.

            Giving up the car is one way (taken as a given) to help the planet
            but from my standpoint, being the best I can be, working my way into
            a position of power in environmental law enforcement, is another.

            Third, keep in mind that the alternate means of transportation
            probably wouldn't be there or wouldn't be as nice if cars weren't
            there. We may like to ride our bikes but would we like to ride them,
            night or day, if there wasn't a smooth roadbed there, if there
            weren't street lights in place? But why build these things if cars
            aren't there? Sure, there are trails but riding along a trail in the
            daylight is one thing ....... it's tempting disaster at night and
            night is when I do most of my riding.

            We still might not get it, in an interpretation, but for a lot of
            us, it is very hard to exist in this world without the car.

            -Traci
            ("I can't do it (give you the Keeper codes), Doctor. I swore an oath
            to keep them safe."--Tremius
            "Well, that's okay, Tremius. In the time to come, when Melkur rules
            as a tyrant, you can rest assure that you kept your oath and honor
            and did not give up the codes that could have stopped him."--The
            Doctor, (w,stte), Dr. Who "The Keeper of Traken")
          • whistling_lass
            ... Man, that s a sweet deal. Although, you can t call off when it s a blizzard and claim you can t get there. :-) ... Well, the classic joke is that a man
            Message 5 of 11 , Jul 12, 2006
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              --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "Christopher Lauinger"
              <dub_scratch@...> wrote:

              > Yes I work and my job is three blocks away

              Man, that's a sweet deal. Although, you can't call off when it's a
              blizzard and claim you can't get there. :-)

              > That's funny, my male brain measures my travels on foot by the time
              > while I ignore the
              > distance.

              Well, the classic joke is that a man will give directions thusly: You
              want drive about 3.5 miles and make a left on Rt. 5, go another 5.2
              miles and turn right on 22nd street. And a woman will give
              directions thusly: You want to drive for about 5 minutes and you'll
              see a big church with stained glass windows on the right hand side of
              the road. Make a left there, and then go for about 7 more minutes and
              make a right by the McDonalds.

              Mileage means nothing to me. I convert it to time (if I can).

              Marcy
              Marcy
            • Tom Frost Jr.
              ... [snip] ... they ... TF: Although Ensignaurora is among the more-intelligent members of this list, her writing could use some polishing up sometimes. Above,
              Message 6 of 11 , Jul 12, 2006
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                --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "ensignaurora" <tappants@...> wrote:
                >
                > --- In CarFree@yahoogroups.com, "whistling_lass" <bonobo@> wrote:
                [snip]
                > > It's like how bad can a person's self-
                > > esteem be that they're putting their ego and status above the
                > planet?
                > >
                > > Marcy
                > >
                >
                > A couple of things.
                >
                > First of all, it's your definition that they are putting their ego
                > and status above the planet. It may not be theirs. Ie, they may be
                > driving a small SUV because they figured that was all they needed
                > for their life, their requirements, and ego and status had very
                > little to do with it. Yet, by the simple fact that it is a SUV,
                they
                > are condemned with those who drive the ones you can hunt elephants
                > with. At that point, heaping everyone together, one isn't likely to
                > change their mind but rather, steel them against.


                TF: Although Ensignaurora is among the more-intelligent members of
                this list, her writing could use some polishing up sometimes. Above,
                I'm sure she means that she won't heap _me_ together with all owners
                of vehicles capable of hauling a hind quarter, or more, of an
                elephant, when I tell her that one of my vehicles is capable of
                hauling a _whole_ elephant-carcass but that I selected it for
                purposes other than ego or road-rage-derby survivability (and indeed,
                than hauling elephant carcasses, although that's only because there
                are no elephants around here _to_ hunt).


                [snip]
                > Giving up the car is one way (taken as a given) to help the planet
                > but from my standpoint, being the best I can be, working my way
                into
                > a position of power in environmental law enforcement, is another.


                TF: There are good kinds and bad kinds of "environmental law
                enforcement". Would you care to entertain us with specifics about
                which of those two kinds you do? Please clarify that you're not like
                the Accomac County, Virginia, bureaucrats who once made me dig up a
                whole bunch of piping plover habitat (to the tune of many hundreds of
                percent of what my environmental footprint otherwise was, with my
                16'x16' house that I'd built with rickshawed-up-the-beach materials
                on Cedar Island there), for a stupid drainfield with which to pollute
                the groundwater (instead of _properly_ fertilizing the _top_ of the
                ground as is my usual procedure) with a few turds' worth of
                nitrogen.

                - Tom Frost Jr.
              • Jim Gagnepain
                Having a small roadway or bike path is a far cry for the massive road infrastructure in the US. County roads are built primarily from real estate taxes.
                Message 7 of 11 , Jul 12, 2006
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                  Having a small roadway or bike path is a far cry for the massive road
                  infrastructure in the US. County roads are built primarily from real
                  estate taxes. Neighborhood roads are built primarily from
                  Homeowner's Association dues. And State roads and highways are built
                  from a combination of gas taxes and General Fund revenue (sales tax).

                  My point here is that cyclists pay a lot more taxes to build/repair
                  roads, lighting, etc than you might think. And don't let anybody
                  tell you different.
                  ----
                  Jim Gagnepain
                  http://home.comcast.net/~oil_free_and_happy/

                  > Third, keep in mind that the alternate means of transportation
                  > probably wouldn't be there or wouldn't be as nice if cars weren't
                  > there. We may like to ride our bikes but would we like to ride
                  them,
                  > night or day, if there wasn't a smooth roadbed there, if there
                  > weren't street lights in place? But why build these things if cars
                  > aren't there? Sure, there are trails but riding along a trail in
                  the
                  > daylight is one thing ....... it's tempting disaster at night and
                  > night is when I do most of my riding.
                  >
                  > We still might not get it, in an interpretation, but for a lot of
                  > us, it is very hard to exist in this world without the car.
                  >
                  > -Traci
                  > ("I can't do it (give you the Keeper codes), Doctor. I swore an
                  oath
                  > to keep them safe."--Tremius
                  > "Well, that's okay, Tremius. In the time to come, when Melkur rules
                  > as a tyrant, you can rest assure that you kept your oath and honor
                  > and did not give up the codes that could have stopped him."--The
                  > Doctor, (w,stte), Dr. Who "The Keeper of Traken")
                  >
                • Bling Williams
                  Just spent 3 weeks camping at various home Education gatherings. English campgrounds are of average size and you re never morethan 400 yards from the toilet
                  Message 8 of 11 , Jul 13, 2006
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                    Just spent 3 weeks camping at various home Education gatherings. English campgrounds are of average size and you're never morethan 400 yards from the toilet block. Yet people would drive down there. Some people drove at night after drinking. Despite hundreds of children wandering around.
                    What have we come to if we can't stroll a few yards to the toilets?

                    Shyrley


                    War is terrorism with a bigger budget

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