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Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

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  • Swamiji
    Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
    Message 1 of 4 , Nov 10, 2011
      Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN

      <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/opinion/friedman-india-and-america-two-peas-in-a-pod.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212>

      From: gman1149@...
      Date: Nov 9, 2011 07:54:03 PM
      Subject: Any comment?
      To: manavatavadi@...

      November 8, 2011
      Two Peas in a Pod
      By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
      Goa, India

      The world's two biggest democracies, India and the United States, are going through remarkably similar bouts of introspection. Both countries are witnessing grass-roots movements against corruption and excess. The difference is that Indians are protesting what is illegal — a system requiring bribes at every level of governance to get anything done. And Americans are protesting what is legal — a system of Supreme Court-sanctioned bribery in the form of campaign donations that have enabled the financial-services industry to effectively buy the U.S. Congress, and both political parties, and thereby resist curbs on risk-taking.

      But the similarities do not stop there. What has brought millions of Indians into the streets to support the India Against Corruption movement and what seems to have triggered not only the Occupy Wall Street movement but also initiatives like Americanselect.org — a centrist group planning to use the Internet to nominate an independent presidential candidate — is a sense that both countries have democratically elected governments that are so beholden to special interests that they can no longer deliver reform. Therefore, they both need shock therapy from outside.

      The big difference is that, in America, the Occupy Wall Street movement has no leader and no consensus demand. And while it enjoys a lot of passive support, its activist base is small. India Against Corruption has millions of followers and a charismatic leader, the social activist Anna Hazare, who went on a hunger strike until the Indian Parliament agreed to create an independent ombudsman with the staff and powers to investigate and prosecute corruption at every level of Indian governance and to do so in this next session of Parliament. A furious debate is now raging here over how to ensure that such an ombudsman doesn't turn into an Indian "Big Brother," but some new ombudsman position appears likely to be created.

      Arvind Kejriwal, Hazare's top deputy, told me, "Gandhi said that whenever you do any protests, your demands should be very clear, and it should be very clear who is the authority who can fulfill that demand, so your protests should be directed at that authority." If your movement lacks leadership at first, that is not necessarily a problem, he added, "because often leaders evolve. But the demands have to be very clear." A sense of injustice and widening income gaps brought Occupy Wall Street into the street, "but exactly what needs to be done, which law needs to be changed and who are they demanding that from?" asked Kejriwal. "These things have to be answered quickly."

      That said, there are still many parallels between the Indian and American movements. Both seem to have been spurred to action by a sense that corruption or financial excess had crossed some redlines. In the United States, despite the fact that elements of the financial-services industry nearly sank the economy in 2008, that same industry is still managing to blunt sensible reform efforts because it has so much money to sway Congress. It seems to have learned nothing. People are angry.

      Meanwhile, in India, the commodities and telecommunications booms, coupled with urbanization that is driving up land prices, have set loose billions of rupees, and officials who control zoning and mining permits have just been pigging out. Some 50 top officials have been jailed lately for everything from the crony allocation of wireless spectrum, leading to potential losses to the state of up to $38 billion, to illicitly selling Indian iron ore, needed for development here, to China for a higher price. People are fed up.

      Yet, commented the Indian writer Chetan Bhagat in The Times of India on Monday, "our government attacks almost every anti-corruption crusader" and "sadly, even our opposition parties have lots of corrupt people." Sound familiar? Democracy not only needs a decent ruling party, but an intelligent opposition, and neither India nor America has both today.

      Yes, Indians are mad at a system that makes them pay a bribe to get their birth certificate. Americans are mad at a system that has made it legal for unions to bribe the officials who will decide their pay and for bankers to bribe the lawmakers who will decide how much risk they can take. But both are essentially threatened by the same disease, best captured in the title of Robert Kaiser's book about lobbying — "So Damn Much Money" — and it's being thrown around now by so many special interests that these democracies are not only being warped by it but can't fix themselves either.

      Hazare has called this moment India's "second struggle for independence." I think he is on to something for both India and America. I think that repairing our respective dysfunctional democracies — so they are truly enablers for the 21st century and not inhibitors in India's case or "the sum of all lobbies" in America's case — is for our generation what the independence movement in India and the civil rights movement in America were for our parents' generation. Here's hoping we're as successful.


      ==============================================
      MY REPLY FOLLOW THUS:
      =============================================
      Noble Dr. Gunther,
      Humblest Greetings=Namaskar.

      I tend to disagree with the comparision/analysis to the extent that the analyser is idealisticly blindfolded about the natural trends and acts of the ruling system anywhere and everywhere which mean to exist ever by being as permanent parasites. This blind folded idealism is also a permanent material of the pseudo-political thinkers of the human history. Socrates and Marx were not away from this blind folded idealism. Bribing, taxing or corruption are very useless terms. I instead want to term them as mutualisation, robbery and reciprocity. I am in absolute disagreement with the venture of revolutions/massacres/mass killing for all these pseudo-paradising-mania of guised dominion cravers known as mass/folk leaders. Socretes' misconcept of Aristocracy which resulted as majoritarianism wraped as democracy and Marx's misconcept of prolitariatistic massacre transiting to socialism and subsequently would transit to the dreamland of Communism a dream paradise was shadistive idealism and too far from realistic thinking. Reading addictive people influenced from volumnous books are to fall prey of reading and dreaming addictism like the foolish fighter's story. I don't find any dis-similarity in any democracy/majoritarian bully-ism. For me the segments as nations, countries are un-needed burdens on people. The development of technologies has virtually reduced the need of productive labour for any workable youth about to a 2-00 hours engagement and no much labour to produce all livable luxuries for all 7 bellion people of the world. To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a rumour and are mismerizing advertisements and foolmaking. Some thoughtful people are required to escape themselves from the trapping psychology of ruling-must phenomenon and then only some possibility of un-prejudiced and purely human value based concept of co-existence of all people may grow out of that.

      You know, I am an unlearnt,, savage forester at my background so I should beg pardon for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing to oblige me and have sympathy on my position.

      Cordially,
      Swamiji
    • Swamiji
      Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association Commented at THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA as:
      Message 2 of 4 , Nov 13, 2011
        Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association Commented at "THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA" as:

        <http://www.facebook.com/manavatavadi#!/groups/152128794804134/>

        Noble Swamiji,
        thank you for your thoughtful posting.
        I have a question if I dare: did I get it
        right that you are against democracy
        as a social contract?

        ... There are plenty of pitfalls in democracy,
        you are right, as I see it, they are mass rock
        ignorance, hence primitive gullibility (think of conspiracy
        theorists like truthers, birthers etc,

        let alone adherents of religions including the monsters like
        Scientology Church, Hasidic Jews, Wahhabists etc).
        It's all true...

        BUT... But, Swami, what is the alternative?? What would be better?
        As Churchill put it: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except
        for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."

        One thing in your posting that does not quite ring true to me is
        your skeptical view of overpopulation problem; wish you were right...!

        Sophie
        ===========================================
        I replied tto Dr. Sophie there as:
        ==============================================
        Noble Dr. Sophie,
        Humblest Greetings.

        So kind of you for your thoughtful comment here. I have also received a similar comment from Noble Bud in the HAC-Group and I didn't get time to reply him there. I think this reply from my side would be a common answer. I am not against Democracy as a theory but I want to attract attention towards the possibilities of applications of these theories imagined. Like Lincoln defined and imagined Democracy as for the people, of the people and by the people. No doubt the condition showed in the movie 'Appoclypto' does not exist any more but people are still living in chains. I wanted to attract the attention of thoughtful people to imagine about a co-existential life style where no ruling would be needed to tax or seek bribe or manufacture weapons to kill people or conduct massacres in the name of war or national interest or patriotism. To my raw mind bribing, taxing and doing corruption in the behind is the trend of ruling from the very beginning since people started living in groups by consequently transiting from primitively solitary nomadic life of the jungles..

        In India people bribe the politicians and the Bureaucrats to get their works done. Where as in so called developed countries the governances bribe people to support them conducting massacres and terrorism in any other politically different place and their bribed country people would remain silent or would in support of such barbarous actions of their country governance which had long before convinced them as they are their benefactors and do whatever to save their citizens ends.

        To my mind the whole world economy is based on wars and terrorism. As per the theory or definition of Democracy, it is practiced nowhere. Providing a right to vote is actually no Democratic rather post-feudal/monarchical right which is a fool making of transferring individual citizen`s powers in consolidation to domination cravers to rule over them. Voting was a right while the ruling systems were transiting from king's rules and feudal positions to ahead. But to my uncivilized mind the expected rights what the Democracy would transit to would be a global Democracy of the people, getting back the certainty of rights of existence (healthy food, clothing & shelter, security of life and progress with equal facility and opportunity), Right of freethinking and individual sovereignty.

        I see everywhere people are found fooled in the name of right to vote, right to education, right to earning and so on. On the points of Noble Bud bribing rate is lesser in Canada than India and USA. So the amount of satisfaction is to opt lesser evil in voting, bribing, food supply, public health issues and also killing people not one's own citizens also manufacturing weapons for safest killing of people elsewhere and creating safest market for the sell and consumption of those weapons by paying lavishly for their wasteful luxurious life styles.

        My point was never to oppose Democracy or Socialism or Communism. My point was to attract the attention of the thoughtful people to think beyond a stagnancy or an absolutistic ruling-must cage-work of any type any where may it be Monarchy, Feudalism, Democracy or Socialism all in practice and not in theory what they advocate about themselves. I may re-quote my own proposition in my comment to the German Pediatrician Dr. Gunther L. Ruckl living in Atlanta Georgia in USA as: "Some thoughtful people are required to escape themselves from the trapping psychology of ruling-must phenomenon and then only some possibility of un-prejudiced and purely human value based concept of co-existence of all people may grow out of that."

        It was just an approach to break the stagnancy of an absolutistic thinking style induced in to the mind-set of the people through many means by the ruling net-working including Academia as an Industry to produce voluntary captives of the ruling phenomenon by showing a circus of monkey fighting (wrestling) in the name of competition. Yes! About population rising, I talked about the Global population but not the population of any political segment of land piece and a scarcity of food and other usable commodities. At he present situation 7 billion population is not that problem in relation to food, shelter or other usable commodities as far as technological development or un-employment is concerned. To my mind. Un-employment is an artificial phenomenon created by the ruling systems of the world by making an 5 to 8 hours of work must for a worker is a wrong way of division of productively associate labour pattern.

        So to my raw mind the division of productive labour or production associated labour would to be that the total hours of production associated labour per day devided by the total numbers of workable sound health youths would be the hours of labour/engagement per capita per day and not by engaging few people for 5-8 hours a day by exploiting them to provide facilities or luxuries to parasitic politicians, bureaucrats and so called un-employeds.

        I am quoting my proposition as below which is not a supporting idea to population rise but an exposition of the war based economy conducting ruling segments to create mentality among their citizens to tolerate massacres anywhere, may be through biological bombing or by creating famine like situations in the undeveloped countries or conducting natural disasters like situations to avoid resentments against warfare etc.

        The whole mentality and technological development is dedicated for destructive programmes by the war economist ruling phenomenons. I just want quote my previous saying here as : "The development of technologies has virtually reduced the need of productive labour for any workable youth about to a 2-00 hours engagement and no much labour to produce all livable luxuries for all 7 billion people of the world. To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a rumour and are mesmerizing advertisements and foolmaking."

        The rulings instead of utilizing the technological development in sustainable productive areas are tactfully employed the intelligent people in raising imaginary phobias and paranoia in the mass to keep them distracted towards an unsolvable problem. I am not in thinking in favour of population rise rather I think in favour of positive utilization of technology, development and resources for the real good of the people. Noble Dr. Sophie! I want to remind you one of our discussions in the HAC-list about non-violence, years before and you were the person who argued the most about educating the people to become non-violent. So I mentally stand with yours that point to educate people for raising a sense of adopting every feasible way to germinate an environment and conditions for 'cooperation for co-existence'.

        Kindly excuse me for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing by considering my uncivilized nomadic foresters' background and oblige.

        Cordially,
        Swamiji
        =========================================================================

        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MANAVATAVADI-GROUP/message/3135>

        Re: Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
        This message was pasted in various Discussion Groups. Mr. Bud Skinner is a well
        known Thinker of Toronto based and a member of Canadian Humanist Association
        Discussion Group. He reacted to this Article of Mr. Thomas L. Friedman and my
        reaction on that as below in the HAC Discussion Group is reproduced here as:

        <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Humanist-Discussion/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJydm5hbWd1BF9\
        TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzcyNDc1NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDY0MDg1BG1zZ0lkAzQzNjk2BHNlYwN\
        kbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzMjEwMTEwMzE-?act=reply&messageNum=43696>

        Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
        Posted by: "bud" bud@... billybobbud
        Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:08 am (PST)


        =========
        You know, I am an unlearnt,, savage forester at my background so I should beg
        pardon for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing to oblige me
        and have sympathy on my position.
        ==========

        Me too! I was a high lead logger, and worked at several sawmills, out in the
        Forest! Out in the lumber camps - the forest. Fighting forest fires out of
        helicopters - Heli-tack!

        <http://www.google.ca/images?q=high+lead+logging&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-Sear\
        chBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLG_enCA309&oi=image_result_group&s\
        a=X>

        But, the politicians - well, my impression is that they are fairly directly
        "corrupt" in India, and take cash from individuals and corporations as bribes
        probably more than in the USA, where they have at least some reporting of who
        bribes whom. In Canada, there is probably quite a bit less than either the
        States or India. One reason is, we can usually throw out an unpopular
        government. But, we have more people-oriented laws, than the States, and more
        Observation and Reporting probably than India. If some politician is caught
        taking a direct bribe in Canada, they Probably would have a hard time of it!

        And I don't think there is all That much direct bribery in Canada. However, when
        a corporation gets its way, often there will be money and jobs, so corporations
        often Do get their way with politicians anyway.

        Most of all that Revolution stuff would be in India and the USA rather than
        Canada, I think! In the States, they have some big problems: all their jobs went
        to China and they can't all cook hamburgers for each other. They have no laws
        against corporate bribery, as long as it is done in the proper way. I suppose
        that their government is so huge that individual people don't get thrown out
        very often, and it doesn't matter - there are 10 more just like that one.

        But, the States, they owe 30 years worth of money, as "Debt" - obviously they
        could never repay even a small fraction of it. Also, no work - it all went to
        cheap labour markets. Also, for some people, they can make millions, but other
        people work for $5 an hour. They have a bizarre tax system.

        Right, so it is hard to predict their future - but their unemployed and
        impoverished people aren't very happy! About 45,000 of them die a year just from
        being too poor to pay for Health Insurance. To get a good university degree,
        they need hundreds of thousands of dollars. To get Any degree, they need Many
        thousands of dollars.

        So lots of them are unhappy. Their future looks very dim. Probably they will
        have to join the Army and go pillaging.

        In India - Swamiji knows more than me! A person doesn't hear All that much about
        India over here. It sounds like a complicated business, with castes and clans
        and groupings and all sorts of intrigue.

        I think that the underlying problem is that Dumb people who cannot Do anything
        go into politics and management. People who have brains and skill and education
        go into other fields. So you get a lot of dull-witted people in government,
        often with very little education - useless for running Anything. And those are
        the people that run our countries, provinces, cities, etc. All the educated
        people are off giving lectures at the university.

        Politicians just have to be publicly Likeable - nice - jolly - strong, brave,
        exemplary - no brains needed, and no education needed. Those would be a
        liability, as with Ethics. Also, that will not change. People are chosen for
        Cuteness, not ability to run any show. All things to all voters.

        So there isn't that much point in complaining! You would have to change the
        entire system radically, and many people would not understand and would not
        agree. And it would take decades of focussed, concerted effort and eternal
        vigilance. So no way.

        At this point, it is pretty much Survival, from here on in. Many things cannot
        be changed - a person has to adapt.

        =========
        To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a
        rumour and are mismerizing advertisements and foolmaking.
        =========

        That is why we are doomed - there is a persistent failure to understand our
        situation, these last few decades.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation

        According to the World Health Organization, hunger is the single gravest threat
        to the world's public health. The WHO also states that malnutrition is by far
        the biggest contributor to child mortality, present in half of all cases. Six
        million children die of hunger every year.

        Figures on actual starvation are difficult to come by, but according to the FAO,
        the less severe condition of undernourishment currently affects about 925
        million people, or about 14 % of the world population.
        ===================

        So, for you who has food and shelter - no problem! But for the 6 million
        children a year - big problem! They don't even bother to count adults - only
        children.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation

        1804 | 1 billion
        1927 | 2 billion | 123 years
        1959 | 3 billion | 32 years
        1974 | 4 billion | 15 years
        1987 | 5 billion | 13 years
        1999 | 6 billion | 12 years
        2011 | 7 billion | 12 years

        Nearly half of India's children are malnourished, according to recent government
        data.
        ============

        That should assure you that, unless there is some radical change, there will be
        about a billion new people every 12 years. It could speed up - it can't slow
        down by much, as the absolute numbers are high. It could be 10 or 11 years.

        http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainability

        In March 2009 at a meeting of the Copenhagen Climate Council, 2,500 climate
        experts from 80 countries issued a keynote statement that there is now "no
        excuse" for failing to act on global warming and that without strong carbon
        reduction "abrupt or irreversible" shifts in climate may occur that "will be
        very difficult for contemporary societies to cope with".
        ======================

        These people are so understated, they are like Peter Pan warning Hulk Hogan.

        "Very difficult to cope with" - well, yeah! Probably most life on Earth will be
        gone within decades.

        "without strong carbon reduction "abrupt or irreversible" shifts in climate may
        occur" - well, yeah! And you can't do it - so that is quite a problem.

        "Failing to act" - well, sure, but it is already a lost game. All these things
        model really well on the computer. You CAN'T reduce emissions enough to make any
        difference, and you cannot sequester enough CO2 to make any difference.

        Population rise will be a big problem of the future - it is already a big
        problem - besides people starving to death, millions die from the pollution
        already every year. But in the future, it won't be a problem, because there will
        be no more people. There is no oversight, no limits, and people will just keep
        going as long as they can. There is nothing that can reverse the using up of the
        planet. She's almost done.

        Right, so no point in complaining now! It's all adaptation.

        Bud Skinner
        =====================================================================
        --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Swamiji" <manavatavadi@...> wrote:
        >
        > Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
        >
        > <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/opinion/friedman-india-and-america-two-peas-in-a-pod.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212>
        >
        > From: gman1149@...
        > Date: Nov 9, 2011 07:54:03 PM
        > Subject: Any comment?
        > To: manavatavadi@...
        >
        > November 8, 2011
        > Two Peas in a Pod
        > By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
        > Goa, India
        >
        > The world's two biggest democracies, India and the United States, are going through remarkably similar bouts of introspection. Both countries are witnessing grass-roots movements against corruption and excess. The difference is that Indians are protesting what is illegal — a system requiring bribes at every level of governance to get anything done. And Americans are protesting what is legal — a system of Supreme Court-sanctioned bribery in the form of campaign donations that have enabled the financial-services industry to effectively buy the U.S. Congress, and both political parties, and thereby resist curbs on risk-taking.
        >
        > But the similarities do not stop there. What has brought millions of Indians into the streets to support the India Against Corruption movement and what seems to have triggered not only the Occupy Wall Street movement but also initiatives like Americanselect.org — a centrist group planning to use the Internet to nominate an independent presidential candidate — is a sense that both countries have democratically elected governments that are so beholden to special interests that they can no longer deliver reform. Therefore, they both need shock therapy from outside.
        >
        > The big difference is that, in America, the Occupy Wall Street movement has no leader and no consensus demand. And while it enjoys a lot of passive support, its activist base is small. India Against Corruption has millions of followers and a charismatic leader, the social activist Anna Hazare, who went on a hunger strike until the Indian Parliament agreed to create an independent ombudsman with the staff and powers to investigate and prosecute corruption at every level of Indian governance and to do so in this next session of Parliament. A furious debate is now raging here over how to ensure that such an ombudsman doesn't turn into an Indian "Big Brother," but some new ombudsman position appears likely to be created.
        >
        > Arvind Kejriwal, Hazare's top deputy, told me, "Gandhi said that whenever you do any protests, your demands should be very clear, and it should be very clear who is the authority who can fulfill that demand, so your protests should be directed at that authority." If your movement lacks leadership at first, that is not necessarily a problem, he added, "because often leaders evolve. But the demands have to be very clear." A sense of injustice and widening income gaps brought Occupy Wall Street into the street, "but exactly what needs to be done, which law needs to be changed and who are they demanding that from?" asked Kejriwal. "These things have to be answered quickly."
        >
        > That said, there are still many parallels between the Indian and American movements. Both seem to have been spurred to action by a sense that corruption or financial excess had crossed some redlines. In the United States, despite the fact that elements of the financial-services industry nearly sank the economy in 2008, that same industry is still managing to blunt sensible reform efforts because it has so much money to sway Congress. It seems to have learned nothing. People are angry.
        >
        > Meanwhile, in India, the commodities and telecommunications booms, coupled with urbanization that is driving up land prices, have set loose billions of rupees, and officials who control zoning and mining permits have just been pigging out. Some 50 top officials have been jailed lately for everything from the crony allocation of wireless spectrum, leading to potential losses to the state of up to $38 billion, to illicitly selling Indian iron ore, needed for development here, to China for a higher price. People are fed up.
        >
        > Yet, commented the Indian writer Chetan Bhagat in The Times of India on Monday, "our government attacks almost every anti-corruption crusader" and "sadly, even our opposition parties have lots of corrupt people." Sound familiar? Democracy not only needs a decent ruling party, but an intelligent opposition, and neither India nor America has both today.
        >
        > Yes, Indians are mad at a system that makes them pay a bribe to get their birth certificate. Americans are mad at a system that has made it legal for unions to bribe the officials who will decide their pay and for bankers to bribe the lawmakers who will decide how much risk they can take. But both are essentially threatened by the same disease, best captured in the title of Robert Kaiser's book about lobbying — "So Damn Much Money" — and it's being thrown around now by so many special interests that these democracies are not only being warped by it but can't fix themselves either.
        >
        > Hazare has called this moment India's "second struggle for independence." I think he is on to something for both India and America. I think that repairing our respective dysfunctional democracies — so they are truly enablers for the 21st century and not inhibitors in India's case or "the sum of all lobbies" in America's case — is for our generation what the independence movement in India and the civil rights movement in America were for our parents' generation. Here's hoping we're as successful.
        >
        >
        > ==============================================
        > MY REPLY FOLLOW THUS:
        > =============================================
        > Noble Dr. Gunther,
        > Humblest Greetings=Namaskar.
        >
        > I tend to disagree with the comparision/analysis to the extent that the analyser is idealisticly blindfolded about the natural trends and acts of the ruling system anywhere and everywhere which mean to exist ever by being as permanent parasites. This blind folded idealism is also a permanent material of the pseudo-political thinkers of the human history. Socrates and Marx were not away from this blind folded idealism. Bribing, taxing or corruption are very useless terms. I instead want to term them as mutualisation, robbery and reciprocity. I am in absolute disagreement with the venture of revolutions/massacres/mass killing for all these pseudo-paradising-mania of guised dominion cravers known as mass/folk leaders. Socretes' misconcept of Aristocracy which resulted as majoritarianism wraped as democracy and Marx's misconcept of prolitariatistic massacre transiting to socialism and subsequently would transit to the dreamland of Communism a dream paradise was shadistive idealism and too far from realistic thinking. Reading addictive people influenced from volumnous books are to fall prey of reading and dreaming addictism like the foolish fighter's story. I don't find any dis-similarity in any democracy/majoritarian bully-ism. For me the segments as nations, countries are un-needed burdens on people. The development of technologies has virtually reduced the need of productive labour for any workable youth about to a 2-00 hours engagement and no much labour to produce all livable luxuries for all 7 bellion people of the world. To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a rumour and are mismerizing advertisements and foolmaking. Some thoughtful people are required to escape themselves from the trapping psychology of ruling-must phenomenon and then only some possibility of un-prejudiced and purely human value based concept of co-existence of all people may grow out of that.
        >
        > You know, I am an unlearnt,, savage forester at my background so I should beg pardon for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing to oblige me and have sympathy on my position.
        >
        > Cordially,
        > Swamiji
        >
      • Swamiji
        Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association reacted to my reply to her in the THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA as:
        Message 3 of 4 , Nov 15, 2011
          Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association reacted to my reply to her in the THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA as:

          <http://www.facebook.com/manavatavadi#!/groups/152128794804134/>

          Noble Swamiji,
          thank you for your exhaustive treatise.
          I think, you are mostly right, democracy is not ShangriLa, by far not
          perfect and voting rights do not bring bread to the starved.
          ... Yet, the undeniable fact is that in the countries that we call democratic, oppression, exploitation, abuse of rights and neglect of the vulnerable are all incomparably lower than in the autocracies, be they theocratic or secular.
          No social contract better than democracy has so far been invented by the humans :-) .

          Warmly,
          Sophie

          On 11/13/2011 3:26 PM, Swami Manavatavadi wrote:
          ========================================================

          I, Swami Manavatavadi replied to her there as:

          I don't want to disagree with you Noble Doctor Sophie. But why to compare something old fashioned, outdated and proved useless with the present one? Why the thoughtful people are not searching a new way to have a better livable social order for all humans? Is it not just keeping people arrested to some rotten situations and forcing them to remain satisfied there with the excuse that the past was worse ?

          It is the American Governance way to keep their citizens fooled by showing movies of the miserable conditions of the slum dwellers of the third world countries to show that their condition is better than all others in the world and to tactfully bring their human reasoning to a sedation situation to keep them permanently fools for ever for the remaining world. Is it not pushing people to a state of un-progressing stagnancy and the sufferers would remain naturalized to suffering by believing that it is their fate to remain suffering?

          In India hunger matter it is artificially created because of policy matters of the politicians. Millions of tons of wheat and rice get rotten in states like Punjab, Haryana and Uttar Pradesh and people in southern states die with hunger or live half eaten. The politicians take away the rotten grains to their Brewery industries to produce costly alcohol out of them for free of cost. It is a good strategy to get everything by investing nothing. Same thing is seen in African continent, the richest continent with all rich natural resources but poorest people dying with hunger and genocide.

          Democracy in practice is no solution for the humanity at all.

          George W. Bush's or American foreign policy of pre-emptive wars on countries and massacring is a good excuse of this leading democracy of the world. All social theorists including Socrates and Marx attract the masses by showing a dream paradise by hypnotizing the folks and put people in to a very un-amendable and helpless conditions.

          I just talked about to search a right way in consideration of the past and present ruling systems to liberate people from the chains and let them live a free, peaceful, progressive, healthy and happy life. At the present time population is not the cause of hunger or malnutrition but intentional mal-management and artificial creation of hunger so that the dominants can remain as the dominants for ever and show a pseudo compassion in lectures or writing books or providing waste materials to the victims as relief or help to keep them miserable fools and captives.

          To my raw mind the present day problems with the humanity is artificial and rather invented or fabricated problems.

          Kindly excuse me for the probable flaws in my thinking, expression, language and typing and oblige.

          Cordially,
          Swamiji


          ===================================
          --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Swamiji" <manavatavadi@...> wrote:
          >
          > Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association Commented at "THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA" as:
          >
          > <http://www.facebook.com/manavatavadi#!/groups/152128794804134/>
          >
          > Noble Swamiji,
          > thank you for your thoughtful posting.
          > I have a question if I dare: did I get it
          > right that you are against democracy
          > as a social contract?
          >
          > ... There are plenty of pitfalls in democracy,
          > you are right, as I see it, they are mass rock
          > ignorance, hence primitive gullibility (think of conspiracy
          > theorists like truthers, birthers etc,
          >
          > let alone adherents of religions including the monsters like
          > Scientology Church, Hasidic Jews, Wahhabists etc).
          > It's all true...
          >
          > BUT... But, Swami, what is the alternative?? What would be better?
          > As Churchill put it: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except
          > for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
          >
          > One thing in your posting that does not quite ring true to me is
          > your skeptical view of overpopulation problem; wish you were right...!
          >
          > Sophie
          > ===========================================
          > I replied tto Dr. Sophie there as:
          > ==============================================
          > Noble Dr. Sophie,
          > Humblest Greetings.
          >
          > So kind of you for your thoughtful comment here. I have also received a similar comment from Noble Bud in the HAC-Group and I didn't get time to reply him there. I think this reply from my side would be a common answer. I am not against Democracy as a theory but I want to attract attention towards the possibilities of applications of these theories imagined. Like Lincoln defined and imagined Democracy as for the people, of the people and by the people. No doubt the condition showed in the movie 'Appoclypto' does not exist any more but people are still living in chains. I wanted to attract the attention of thoughtful people to imagine about a co-existential life style where no ruling would be needed to tax or seek bribe or manufacture weapons to kill people or conduct massacres in the name of war or national interest or patriotism. To my raw mind bribing, taxing and doing corruption in the behind is the trend of ruling from the very beginning since people started living in groups by consequently transiting from primitively solitary nomadic life of the jungles..
          >
          > In India people bribe the politicians and the Bureaucrats to get their works done. Where as in so called developed countries the governances bribe people to support them conducting massacres and terrorism in any other politically different place and their bribed country people would remain silent or would in support of such barbarous actions of their country governance which had long before convinced them as they are their benefactors and do whatever to save their citizens ends.
          >
          > To my mind the whole world economy is based on wars and terrorism. As per the theory or definition of Democracy, it is practiced nowhere. Providing a right to vote is actually no Democratic rather post-feudal/monarchical right which is a fool making of transferring individual citizen`s powers in consolidation to domination cravers to rule over them. Voting was a right while the ruling systems were transiting from king's rules and feudal positions to ahead. But to my uncivilized mind the expected rights what the Democracy would transit to would be a global Democracy of the people, getting back the certainty of rights of existence (healthy food, clothing & shelter, security of life and progress with equal facility and opportunity), Right of freethinking and individual sovereignty.
          >
          > I see everywhere people are found fooled in the name of right to vote, right to education, right to earning and so on. On the points of Noble Bud bribing rate is lesser in Canada than India and USA. So the amount of satisfaction is to opt lesser evil in voting, bribing, food supply, public health issues and also killing people not one's own citizens also manufacturing weapons for safest killing of people elsewhere and creating safest market for the sell and consumption of those weapons by paying lavishly for their wasteful luxurious life styles.
          >
          > My point was never to oppose Democracy or Socialism or Communism. My point was to attract the attention of the thoughtful people to think beyond a stagnancy or an absolutistic ruling-must cage-work of any type any where may it be Monarchy, Feudalism, Democracy or Socialism all in practice and not in theory what they advocate about themselves. I may re-quote my own proposition in my comment to the German Pediatrician Dr. Gunther L. Ruckl living in Atlanta Georgia in USA as: "Some thoughtful people are required to escape themselves from the trapping psychology of ruling-must phenomenon and then only some possibility of un-prejudiced and purely human value based concept of co-existence of all people may grow out of that."
          >
          > It was just an approach to break the stagnancy of an absolutistic thinking style induced in to the mind-set of the people through many means by the ruling net-working including Academia as an Industry to produce voluntary captives of the ruling phenomenon by showing a circus of monkey fighting (wrestling) in the name of competition. Yes! About population rising, I talked about the Global population but not the population of any political segment of land piece and a scarcity of food and other usable commodities. At he present situation 7 billion population is not that problem in relation to food, shelter or other usable commodities as far as technological development or un-employment is concerned. To my mind. Un-employment is an artificial phenomenon created by the ruling systems of the world by making an 5 to 8 hours of work must for a worker is a wrong way of division of productively associate labour pattern.
          >
          > So to my raw mind the division of productive labour or production associated labour would to be that the total hours of production associated labour per day devided by the total numbers of workable sound health youths would be the hours of labour/engagement per capita per day and not by engaging few people for 5-8 hours a day by exploiting them to provide facilities or luxuries to parasitic politicians, bureaucrats and so called un-employeds.
          >
          > I am quoting my proposition as below which is not a supporting idea to population rise but an exposition of the war based economy conducting ruling segments to create mentality among their citizens to tolerate massacres anywhere, may be through biological bombing or by creating famine like situations in the undeveloped countries or conducting natural disasters like situations to avoid resentments against warfare etc.
          >
          > The whole mentality and technological development is dedicated for destructive programmes by the war economist ruling phenomenons. I just want quote my previous saying here as : "The development of technologies has virtually reduced the need of productive labour for any workable youth about to a 2-00 hours engagement and no much labour to produce all livable luxuries for all 7 billion people of the world. To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a rumour and are mesmerizing advertisements and foolmaking."
          >
          > The rulings instead of utilizing the technological development in sustainable productive areas are tactfully employed the intelligent people in raising imaginary phobias and paranoia in the mass to keep them distracted towards an unsolvable problem. I am not in thinking in favour of population rise rather I think in favour of positive utilization of technology, development and resources for the real good of the people. Noble Dr. Sophie! I want to remind you one of our discussions in the HAC-list about non-violence, years before and you were the person who argued the most about educating the people to become non-violent. So I mentally stand with yours that point to educate people for raising a sense of adopting every feasible way to germinate an environment and conditions for 'cooperation for co-existence'.
          >
          > Kindly excuse me for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing by considering my uncivilized nomadic foresters' background and oblige.
          >
          > Cordially,
          > Swamiji
          > =========================================================================
          >
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MANAVATAVADI-GROUP/message/3135>
          >
          > Re: Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
          > This message was pasted in various Discussion Groups. Mr. Bud Skinner is a well
          > known Thinker of Toronto based and a member of Canadian Humanist Association
          > Discussion Group. He reacted to this Article of Mr. Thomas L. Friedman and my
          > reaction on that as below in the HAC Discussion Group is reproduced here as:
          >
          > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Humanist-Discussion/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJydm5hbWd1BF9\
          > TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzcyNDc1NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDY0MDg1BG1zZ0lkAzQzNjk2BHNlYwN\
          > kbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzMjEwMTEwMzE-?act=reply&messageNum=43696>
          >
          > Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
          > Posted by: "bud" bud@... billybobbud
          > Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:08 am (PST)
          >
          >
          > =========
          > You know, I am an unlearnt,, savage forester at my background so I should beg
          > pardon for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing to oblige me
          > and have sympathy on my position.
          > ==========
          >
          > Me too! I was a high lead logger, and worked at several sawmills, out in the
          > Forest! Out in the lumber camps - the forest. Fighting forest fires out of
          > helicopters - Heli-tack!
          >
          > <http://www.google.ca/images?q=high+lead+logging&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-Sear\
          > chBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLG_enCA309&oi=image_result_group&s\
          > a=X>
          >
          > But, the politicians - well, my impression is that they are fairly directly
          > "corrupt" in India, and take cash from individuals and corporations as bribes
          > probably more than in the USA, where they have at least some reporting of who
          > bribes whom. In Canada, there is probably quite a bit less than either the
          > States or India. One reason is, we can usually throw out an unpopular
          > government. But, we have more people-oriented laws, than the States, and more
          > Observation and Reporting probably than India. If some politician is caught
          > taking a direct bribe in Canada, they Probably would have a hard time of it!
          >
          > And I don't think there is all That much direct bribery in Canada. However, when
          > a corporation gets its way, often there will be money and jobs, so corporations
          > often Do get their way with politicians anyway.
          >
          > Most of all that Revolution stuff would be in India and the USA rather than
          > Canada, I think! In the States, they have some big problems: all their jobs went
          > to China and they can't all cook hamburgers for each other. They have no laws
          > against corporate bribery, as long as it is done in the proper way. I suppose
          > that their government is so huge that individual people don't get thrown out
          > very often, and it doesn't matter - there are 10 more just like that one.
          >
          > But, the States, they owe 30 years worth of money, as "Debt" - obviously they
          > could never repay even a small fraction of it. Also, no work - it all went to
          > cheap labour markets. Also, for some people, they can make millions, but other
          > people work for $5 an hour. They have a bizarre tax system.
          >
          > Right, so it is hard to predict their future - but their unemployed and
          > impoverished people aren't very happy! About 45,000 of them die a year just from
          > being too poor to pay for Health Insurance. To get a good university degree,
          > they need hundreds of thousands of dollars. To get Any degree, they need Many
          > thousands of dollars.
          >
          > So lots of them are unhappy. Their future looks very dim. Probably they will
          > have to join the Army and go pillaging.
          >
          > In India - Swamiji knows more than me! A person doesn't hear All that much about
          > India over here. It sounds like a complicated business, with castes and clans
          > and groupings and all sorts of intrigue.
          >
          > I think that the underlying problem is that Dumb people who cannot Do anything
          > go into politics and management. People who have brains and skill and education
          > go into other fields. So you get a lot of dull-witted people in government,
          > often with very little education - useless for running Anything. And those are
          > the people that run our countries, provinces, cities, etc. All the educated
          > people are off giving lectures at the university.
          >
          > Politicians just have to be publicly Likeable - nice - jolly - strong, brave,
          > exemplary - no brains needed, and no education needed. Those would be a
          > liability, as with Ethics. Also, that will not change. People are chosen for
          > Cuteness, not ability to run any show. All things to all voters.
          >
          > So there isn't that much point in complaining! You would have to change the
          > entire system radically, and many people would not understand and would not
          > agree. And it would take decades of focussed, concerted effort and eternal
          > vigilance. So no way.
          >
          > At this point, it is pretty much Survival, from here on in. Many things cannot
          > be changed - a person has to adapt.
          >
          > =========
          > To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a
          > rumour and are mismerizing advertisements and foolmaking.
          > =========
          >
          > That is why we are doomed - there is a persistent failure to understand our
          > situation, these last few decades.
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation
          >
          > According to the World Health Organization, hunger is the single gravest threat
          > to the world's public health. The WHO also states that malnutrition is by far
          > the biggest contributor to child mortality, present in half of all cases. Six
          > million children die of hunger every year.
          >
          > Figures on actual starvation are difficult to come by, but according to the FAO,
          > the less severe condition of undernourishment currently affects about 925
          > million people, or about 14 % of the world population.
          > ===================
          >
          > So, for you who has food and shelter - no problem! But for the 6 million
          > children a year - big problem! They don't even bother to count adults - only
          > children.
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation
          >
          > 1804 | 1 billion
          > 1927 | 2 billion | 123 years
          > 1959 | 3 billion | 32 years
          > 1974 | 4 billion | 15 years
          > 1987 | 5 billion | 13 years
          > 1999 | 6 billion | 12 years
          > 2011 | 7 billion | 12 years
          >
          > Nearly half of India's children are malnourished, according to recent government
          > data.
          > ============
          >
          > That should assure you that, unless there is some radical change, there will be
          > about a billion new people every 12 years. It could speed up - it can't slow
          > down by much, as the absolute numbers are high. It could be 10 or 11 years.
          >
          > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainability
          >
          > In March 2009 at a meeting of the Copenhagen Climate Council, 2,500 climate
          > experts from 80 countries issued a keynote statement that there is now "no
          > excuse" for failing to act on global warming and that without strong carbon
          > reduction "abrupt or irreversible" shifts in climate may occur that "will be
          > very difficult for contemporary societies to cope with".
          > ======================
          >
          > These people are so understated, they are like Peter Pan warning Hulk Hogan.
          >
          > "Very difficult to cope with" - well, yeah! Probably most life on Earth will be
          > gone within decades.
          >
          > "without strong carbon reduction "abrupt or irreversible" shifts in climate may
          > occur" - well, yeah! And you can't do it - so that is quite a problem.
          >
          > "Failing to act" - well, sure, but it is already a lost game. All these things
          > model really well on the computer. You CAN'T reduce emissions enough to make any
          > difference, and you cannot sequester enough CO2 to make any difference.
          >
          > Population rise will be a big problem of the future - it is already a big
          > problem - besides people starving to death, millions die from the pollution
          > already every year. But in the future, it won't be a problem, because there will
          > be no more people. There is no oversight, no limits, and people will just keep
          > going as long as they can. There is nothing that can reverse the using up of the
          > planet. She's almost done.
          >
          > Right, so no point in complaining now! It's all adaptation.
          >
          > Bud Skinner
          > =====================================================================
          > --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Swamiji" <manavatavadi@> wrote:
          > >
          > > Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
          > >
          > > <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/opinion/friedman-india-and-america-two-peas-in-a-pod.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212>
          > >
          > > From: gman1149@
          > > Date: Nov 9, 2011 07:54:03 PM
          > > Subject: Any comment?
          > > To: manavatavadi@
          > >
          > > November 8, 2011
          > > Two Peas in a Pod
          > > By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
          > > Goa, India
          > >
          > > The world's two biggest democracies, India and the United States, are going through remarkably similar bouts of introspection. Both countries are witnessing grass-roots movements against corruption and excess. The difference is that Indians are protesting what is illegal — a system requiring bribes at every level of governance to get anything done. And Americans are protesting what is legal — a system of Supreme Court-sanctioned bribery in the form of campaign donations that have enabled the financial-services industry to effectively buy the U.S. Congress, and both political parties, and thereby resist curbs on risk-taking.
          > >
          > > But the similarities do not stop there. What has brought millions of Indians into the streets to support the India Against Corruption movement and what seems to have triggered not only the Occupy Wall Street movement but also initiatives like Americanselect.org — a centrist group planning to use the Internet to nominate an independent presidential candidate — is a sense that both countries have democratically elected governments that are so beholden to special interests that they can no longer deliver reform. Therefore, they both need shock therapy from outside.
          > >
          > > The big difference is that, in America, the Occupy Wall Street movement has no leader and no consensus demand. And while it enjoys a lot of passive support, its activist base is small. India Against Corruption has millions of followers and a charismatic leader, the social activist Anna Hazare, who went on a hunger strike until the Indian Parliament agreed to create an independent ombudsman with the staff and powers to investigate and prosecute corruption at every level of Indian governance and to do so in this next session of Parliament. A furious debate is now raging here over how to ensure that such an ombudsman doesn't turn into an Indian "Big Brother," but some new ombudsman position appears likely to be created.
          > >
          > > Arvind Kejriwal, Hazare's top deputy, told me, "Gandhi said that whenever you do any protests, your demands should be very clear, and it should be very clear who is the authority who can fulfill that demand, so your protests should be directed at that authority." If your movement lacks leadership at first, that is not necessarily a problem, he added, "because often leaders evolve. But the demands have to be very clear." A sense of injustice and widening income gaps brought Occupy Wall Street into the street, "but exactly what needs to be done, which law needs to be changed and who are they demanding that from?" asked Kejriwal. "These things have to be answered quickly."
          > >
          > > That said, there are still many parallels between the Indian and American movements. Both seem to have been spurred to action by a sense that corruption or financial excess had crossed some redlines. In the United States, despite the fact that elements of the financial-services industry nearly sank the economy in 2008, that same industry is still managing to blunt sensible reform efforts because it has so much money to sway Congress. It seems to have learned nothing. People are angry.
          > >
          > > Meanwhile, in India, the commodities and telecommunications booms, coupled with urbanization that is driving up land prices, have set loose billions of rupees, and officials who control zoning and mining permits have just been pigging out. Some 50 top officials have been jailed lately for everything from the crony allocation of wireless spectrum, leading to potential losses to the state of up to $38 billion, to illicitly selling Indian iron ore, needed for development here, to China for a higher price. People are fed up.
          > >
          > > Yet, commented the Indian writer Chetan Bhagat in The Times of India on Monday, "our government attacks almost every anti-corruption crusader" and "sadly, even our opposition parties have lots of corrupt people." Sound familiar? Democracy not only needs a decent ruling party, but an intelligent opposition, and neither India nor America has both today.
          > >
          > > Yes, Indians are mad at a system that makes them pay a bribe to get their birth certificate. Americans are mad at a system that has made it legal for unions to bribe the officials who will decide their pay and for bankers to bribe the lawmakers who will decide how much risk they can take. But both are essentially threatened by the same disease, best captured in the title of Robert Kaiser's book about lobbying — "So Damn Much Money" — and it's being thrown around now by so many special interests that these democracies are not only being warped by it but can't fix themselves either.
          > >
          > > Hazare has called this moment India's "second struggle for independence." I think he is on to something for both India and America. I think that repairing our respective dysfunctional democracies — so they are truly enablers for the 21st century and not inhibitors in India's case or "the sum of all lobbies" in America's case — is for our generation what the independence movement in India and the civil rights movement in America were for our parents' generation. Here's hoping we're as successful.
          > >
          > >
          > > ==============================================
          > > MY REPLY FOLLOW THUS:
          > > =============================================
          > > Noble Dr. Gunther,
          > > Humblest Greetings=Namaskar.
          > >
          > > I tend to disagree with the comparision/analysis to the extent that the analyser is idealisticly blindfolded about the natural trends and acts of the ruling system anywhere and everywhere which mean to exist ever by being as permanent parasites. This blind folded idealism is also a permanent material of the pseudo-political thinkers of the human history. Socrates and Marx were not away from this blind folded idealism. Bribing, taxing or corruption are very useless terms. I instead want to term them as mutualisation, robbery and reciprocity. I am in absolute disagreement with the venture of revolutions/massacres/mass killing for all these pseudo-paradising-mania of guised dominion cravers known as mass/folk leaders. Socretes' misconcept of Aristocracy which resulted as majoritarianism wraped as democracy and Marx's misconcept of prolitariatistic massacre transiting to socialism and subsequently would transit to the dreamland of Communism a dream paradise was shadistive idealism and too far from realistic thinking. Reading addictive people influenced from volumnous books are to fall prey of reading and dreaming addictism like the foolish fighter's story. I don't find any dis-similarity in any democracy/majoritarian bully-ism. For me the segments as nations, countries are un-needed burdens on people. The development of technologies has virtually reduced the need of productive labour for any workable youth about to a 2-00 hours engagement and no much labour to produce all livable luxuries for all 7 bellion people of the world. To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a rumour and are mismerizing advertisements and foolmaking. Some thoughtful people are required to escape themselves from the trapping psychology of ruling-must phenomenon and then only some possibility of un-prejudiced and purely human value based concept of co-existence of all people may grow out of that.
          > >
          > > You know, I am an unlearnt,, savage forester at my background so I should beg pardon for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing to oblige me and have sympathy on my position.
          > >
          > > Cordially,
          > > Swamiji
          > >
          >
        • Swamiji
          Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association wrote at THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA as:
          Message 4 of 4 , Nov 15, 2011
            Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association wrote at THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA as:

            <http://www.facebook.com/manavatavadi#!/groups/152128794804134/>

            I don't think we have disagreement here, noble Swamiji.
            You are hundred percent right in what you have said which
            I read as your passionate call to turn from old imperfect
            patterns to, as you say, "searching a new way to have a
            better livable social order for all humans". I'm all for it but
            today it seems an ideal solution with no obvious ways re:
            how to achieve it even in theory. What you call for can be
            labeled as a distant goal.
            At our times though it seems beyond argument that the
            more democracy the better common people live. Yes,
            India, Africa, even US are imperfect democracies; yet,
            what is the alternative? Horrors of Iran or of Saudi Arabia?
            Stalin's (or even Putin's) lawless Russia or China?
            64 years ago India and Pakistan both started equally with
            the ruined economies and broken societies; both peoples
            are of the same kin ethnically. Compare them now even
            with all the flaws of Indian democracy!
            So, more democracy and better democracy TODAY is
            clearly better than anything people have tried otherwise...
            A goal worth fighting for!
            Thank you for this discussion,
            Sophie

            ====================================================
            I, Swami Manavatavadi wrote there for her as:
            =========================================================
            Noble Dr. Sophie,
            Humblest Greetings.

            Your voice looks tired and disappointed to my uncivilized mind. A demand of a social order may not be perfect creation but just a craving for at least a transiting process towards equality may it be named as democracy or socialism or communism or any name which is not yet invented, but what it is a need. I am talking about the need and every concept before practice happens to be idealistic and hypothetical. An application only becomes capable in showing the feasibility aspects and unfeasible aspects in the concept/hypothesis.

            Always the concept of an alternative imagined as a cherry cake instead of a plum cake, is the basic limitation of the human brains which had been keeping this species arrested in to the zoo cages of all those types of rulings created and operated by the dominating fellow men/women of our own species. For any ruling system always the people were get fooled while tempted to change the existing one with an other one just like substituting the cherry cake with the old plum cake. Might it be theocracy, or any other autocracy, democracy or socialism or communism the main thing is that dominion cravers enslaved people and treated them as captives. Elite people and academically trained people rely on papers and printed materials for they used to be lavishly bribed by the ruling system either directly or indirectly. Therefore they always imply their sharply intelligent capabilities in creating methods in defending any ruling system in its original position. No question what the ruling system may/might be?

            Would you kindly like to walk with me in India or in Pakistan or in Bangladesh to survey the opinion of the lay people? Still today the old people talk about the bitterness of the British ruling period and would curse the present one. Always the courtier elites liked the ruling because they lived in luxuries and comforts and enjoyed the upper class status.

            What happened after the French revolution? What is the position of a layman/woman in France? The proportion of the gap between the elites and a lay person remained the same moreover somewhere the gap proportion is higher than the past system. To my myopic eyes I don't see any change at the base. The lay person is like an insect and at anytime can be sprayed missiles over it and would under go carpet bombing to be killed or can be also the victim of silent biological bombing to die cold-bloodedly or as an insect. The elites are to show a paper sympathy on their miserable conditions.

            Noble Dr. Sophie, I am not talking in favour of any known political system or not imagining about any utopia or idealistic ruling system but asking thoughtful people to think how a stagnant cage-work could be in transition towards an equal and humane society my be in any name or wrapping on it. I am not interested in, who created the system and who brought it to practice as application? My concern is to see thoughtful people are not thinking as caged zoo/circus animals or their ring-masters but as free human beings for a rational co-existence of all people by utilizing all ultra-modern development of the technologies. I am not at all an idealistic person rather a man from the jungles, but not even like Noble Bud Skinner who, in his foresters hard life had been using most sophisticated modern equipments and tools for working there and earning as per the scheduled waging system. I was just a wanderer, a nomad and a aimless and uncertainly roaming vagabond. With me a thinking is not like imagining things making the literary base of big writers and academic elites but thinking on the materially realistic grounds. Not like Marx or Ingersoll or Bertrand Russell but as a rural peasant who lost his crop because of his wrong selection of seeds for the field or season or couldn't irrigate in time or couldn't remove the weed in time and at the consequent of his negligence out of laziness or ignorance thinks and decides to make up the flaws next-time in the next crop.

            To my raw mind the human needs derived through trials and errors developed technologies for progress, which is being tactfully regulated by the ruling groups, corporate heads and academic framework and successfully resisting its flow of benefits to lay people by keeping them unprivileged and marginalized for ever so that their drama of compassion could be played for ever on them. To my short sighted eyes, as the catholic mother teresa once told to the media people in Kolkata (Calcutta) that her god wanted to keep the poors the poors so that her missionary of charities could get work and could show their compassion towards them. So the ruling system which ever it may be want to design problems for ever so that they can remain busy and could make their allies and admirers `busy for nothing to become important for everything`.

            I know I don't talk civilized and fortunately I never learnt to talk civilized but in this way I think and for me a thinking could be of two types. The one is problem creation supporting thinking and the second is solution ways searching thinking.

            I mingle with the children especially the street ones, the marginalized ones and unprivileged ones and try to raise ample of reasoning in them so that they wouldn't be victims of ruling plottings and can be survived being uninfluenced of rumours/propagandas/advertisements/temptations so that their lives would be less disturbed with scants and amidst all disturbed situations of this un-even society and could gladly die if at anytime they were to become the prey of any bully democratizer global or local prosecutor (police/armed slaves) and could enjoy a real freedom of life.

            Kindly excuse me for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing and oblige.
            Cordially,
            Swamiji
            =================================
            --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Swamiji" <manavatavadi@...> wrote:
            >
            > Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association reacted to my reply to her in the THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA as:
            >
            > <http://www.facebook.com/manavatavadi#!/groups/152128794804134/>
            >
            > Noble Swamiji,
            > thank you for your exhaustive treatise.
            > I think, you are mostly right, democracy is not ShangriLa, by far not
            > perfect and voting rights do not bring bread to the starved.
            > ... Yet, the undeniable fact is that in the countries that we call democratic, oppression, exploitation, abuse of rights and neglect of the vulnerable are all incomparably lower than in the autocracies, be they theocratic or secular.
            > No social contract better than democracy has so far been invented by the humans :-) .
            >
            > Warmly,
            > Sophie
            >
            > On 11/13/2011 3:26 PM, Swami Manavatavadi wrote:
            > ========================================================
            > 
            > I, Swami Manavatavadi replied to her there as:
            >
            > I don't want to disagree with you Noble Doctor Sophie. But why to compare something old fashioned, outdated and proved useless with the present one? Why the thoughtful people are not searching a new way to have a better livable social order for all humans? Is it not just keeping people arrested to some rotten situations and forcing them to remain satisfied there with the excuse that the past was worse ?
            >
            > It is the American Governance way to keep their citizens fooled by showing movies of the miserable conditions of the slum dwellers of the third world countries to show that their condition is better than all others in the world and to tactfully bring their human reasoning to a sedation situation to keep them permanently fools for ever for the remaining world. Is it not pushing people to a state of un-progressing stagnancy and the sufferers would remain naturalized to suffering by believing that it is their fate to remain suffering?
            >
            > In India hunger matter it is artificially created because of policy matters of the politicians. Millions of tons of wheat and rice get rotten in states like Punjab, Haryana and Uttar Pradesh and people in southern states die with hunger or live half eaten. The politicians take away the rotten grains to their Brewery industries to produce costly alcohol out of them for free of cost. It is a good strategy to get everything by investing nothing. Same thing is seen in African continent, the richest continent with all rich natural resources but poorest people dying with hunger and genocide.
            >
            > Democracy in practice is no solution for the humanity at all.
            >
            > George W. Bush's or American foreign policy of pre-emptive wars on countries and massacring is a good excuse of this leading democracy of the world. All social theorists including Socrates and Marx attract the masses by showing a dream paradise by hypnotizing the folks and put people in to a very un-amendable and helpless conditions.
            >
            > I just talked about to search a right way in consideration of the past and present ruling systems to liberate people from the chains and let them live a free, peaceful, progressive, healthy and happy life. At the present time population is not the cause of hunger or malnutrition but intentional mal-management and artificial creation of hunger so that the dominants can remain as the dominants for ever and show a pseudo compassion in lectures or writing books or providing waste materials to the victims as relief or help to keep them miserable fools and captives.
            >
            > To my raw mind the present day problems with the humanity is artificial and rather invented or fabricated problems.
            >
            > Kindly excuse me for the probable flaws in my thinking, expression, language and typing and oblige.
            >
            > Cordially,
            > Swamiji
            >
            >
            > ===================================
            > --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Swamiji" <manavatavadi@> wrote:
            > >
            > > Noble Doctor Sophie Shulman of Canadian Humanist Association Commented at "THE GLOBAL FORUM TO HELP RECOVERING FROM SCHIZOPHRENIA" as:
            > >
            > > <http://www.facebook.com/manavatavadi#!/groups/152128794804134/>
            > >
            > > Noble Swamiji,
            > > thank you for your thoughtful posting.
            > > I have a question if I dare: did I get it
            > > right that you are against democracy
            > > as a social contract?
            > >
            > > ... There are plenty of pitfalls in democracy,
            > > you are right, as I see it, they are mass rock
            > > ignorance, hence primitive gullibility (think of conspiracy
            > > theorists like truthers, birthers etc,
            > >
            > > let alone adherents of religions including the monsters like
            > > Scientology Church, Hasidic Jews, Wahhabists etc).
            > > It's all true...
            > >
            > > BUT... But, Swami, what is the alternative?? What would be better?
            > > As Churchill put it: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except
            > > for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
            > >
            > > One thing in your posting that does not quite ring true to me is
            > > your skeptical view of overpopulation problem; wish you were right...!
            > >
            > > Sophie
            > > ===========================================
            > > I replied tto Dr. Sophie there as:
            > > ==============================================
            > > Noble Dr. Sophie,
            > > Humblest Greetings.
            > >
            > > So kind of you for your thoughtful comment here. I have also received a similar comment from Noble Bud in the HAC-Group and I didn't get time to reply him there. I think this reply from my side would be a common answer. I am not against Democracy as a theory but I want to attract attention towards the possibilities of applications of these theories imagined. Like Lincoln defined and imagined Democracy as for the people, of the people and by the people. No doubt the condition showed in the movie 'Appoclypto' does not exist any more but people are still living in chains. I wanted to attract the attention of thoughtful people to imagine about a co-existential life style where no ruling would be needed to tax or seek bribe or manufacture weapons to kill people or conduct massacres in the name of war or national interest or patriotism. To my raw mind bribing, taxing and doing corruption in the behind is the trend of ruling from the very beginning since people started living in groups by consequently transiting from primitively solitary nomadic life of the jungles..
            > >
            > > In India people bribe the politicians and the Bureaucrats to get their works done. Where as in so called developed countries the governances bribe people to support them conducting massacres and terrorism in any other politically different place and their bribed country people would remain silent or would in support of such barbarous actions of their country governance which had long before convinced them as they are their benefactors and do whatever to save their citizens ends.
            > >
            > > To my mind the whole world economy is based on wars and terrorism. As per the theory or definition of Democracy, it is practiced nowhere. Providing a right to vote is actually no Democratic rather post-feudal/monarchical right which is a fool making of transferring individual citizen`s powers in consolidation to domination cravers to rule over them. Voting was a right while the ruling systems were transiting from king's rules and feudal positions to ahead. But to my uncivilized mind the expected rights what the Democracy would transit to would be a global Democracy of the people, getting back the certainty of rights of existence (healthy food, clothing & shelter, security of life and progress with equal facility and opportunity), Right of freethinking and individual sovereignty.
            > >
            > > I see everywhere people are found fooled in the name of right to vote, right to education, right to earning and so on. On the points of Noble Bud bribing rate is lesser in Canada than India and USA. So the amount of satisfaction is to opt lesser evil in voting, bribing, food supply, public health issues and also killing people not one's own citizens also manufacturing weapons for safest killing of people elsewhere and creating safest market for the sell and consumption of those weapons by paying lavishly for their wasteful luxurious life styles.
            > >
            > > My point was never to oppose Democracy or Socialism or Communism. My point was to attract the attention of the thoughtful people to think beyond a stagnancy or an absolutistic ruling-must cage-work of any type any where may it be Monarchy, Feudalism, Democracy or Socialism all in practice and not in theory what they advocate about themselves. I may re-quote my own proposition in my comment to the German Pediatrician Dr. Gunther L. Ruckl living in Atlanta Georgia in USA as: "Some thoughtful people are required to escape themselves from the trapping psychology of ruling-must phenomenon and then only some possibility of un-prejudiced and purely human value based concept of co-existence of all people may grow out of that."
            > >
            > > It was just an approach to break the stagnancy of an absolutistic thinking style induced in to the mind-set of the people through many means by the ruling net-working including Academia as an Industry to produce voluntary captives of the ruling phenomenon by showing a circus of monkey fighting (wrestling) in the name of competition. Yes! About population rising, I talked about the Global population but not the population of any political segment of land piece and a scarcity of food and other usable commodities. At he present situation 7 billion population is not that problem in relation to food, shelter or other usable commodities as far as technological development or un-employment is concerned. To my mind. Un-employment is an artificial phenomenon created by the ruling systems of the world by making an 5 to 8 hours of work must for a worker is a wrong way of division of productively associate labour pattern.
            > >
            > > So to my raw mind the division of productive labour or production associated labour would to be that the total hours of production associated labour per day devided by the total numbers of workable sound health youths would be the hours of labour/engagement per capita per day and not by engaging few people for 5-8 hours a day by exploiting them to provide facilities or luxuries to parasitic politicians, bureaucrats and so called un-employeds.
            > >
            > > I am quoting my proposition as below which is not a supporting idea to population rise but an exposition of the war based economy conducting ruling segments to create mentality among their citizens to tolerate massacres anywhere, may be through biological bombing or by creating famine like situations in the undeveloped countries or conducting natural disasters like situations to avoid resentments against warfare etc.
            > >
            > > The whole mentality and technological development is dedicated for destructive programmes by the war economist ruling phenomenons. I just want quote my previous saying here as : "The development of technologies has virtually reduced the need of productive labour for any workable youth about to a 2-00 hours engagement and no much labour to produce all livable luxuries for all 7 billion people of the world. To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a rumour and are mesmerizing advertisements and foolmaking."
            > >
            > > The rulings instead of utilizing the technological development in sustainable productive areas are tactfully employed the intelligent people in raising imaginary phobias and paranoia in the mass to keep them distracted towards an unsolvable problem. I am not in thinking in favour of population rise rather I think in favour of positive utilization of technology, development and resources for the real good of the people. Noble Dr. Sophie! I want to remind you one of our discussions in the HAC-list about non-violence, years before and you were the person who argued the most about educating the people to become non-violent. So I mentally stand with yours that point to educate people for raising a sense of adopting every feasible way to germinate an environment and conditions for 'cooperation for co-existence'.
            > >
            > > Kindly excuse me for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing by considering my uncivilized nomadic foresters' background and oblige.
            > >
            > > Cordially,
            > > Swamiji
            > > =========================================================================
            > >
            > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MANAVATAVADI-GROUP/message/3135>
            > >
            > > Re: Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
            > > This message was pasted in various Discussion Groups. Mr. Bud Skinner is a well
            > > known Thinker of Toronto based and a member of Canadian Humanist Association
            > > Discussion Group. He reacted to this Article of Mr. Thomas L. Friedman and my
            > > reaction on that as below in the HAC Discussion Group is reproduced here as:
            > >
            > > <http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Humanist-Discussion/post;_ylc=X3oDMTJydm5hbWd1BF9\
            > > TAzk3MzU5NzE1BGdycElkAzcyNDc1NzcEZ3Jwc3BJZAMxNzA1MDY0MDg1BG1zZ0lkAzQzNjk2BHNlYwN\
            > > kbXNnBHNsawNycGx5BHN0aW1lAzEzMjEwMTEwMzE-?act=reply&messageNum=43696>
            > >
            > > Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
            > > Posted by: "bud" bud@ billybobbud
            > > Fri Nov 11, 2011 1:08 am (PST)
            > >
            > >
            > > =========
            > > You know, I am an unlearnt,, savage forester at my background so I should beg
            > > pardon for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing to oblige me
            > > and have sympathy on my position.
            > > ==========
            > >
            > > Me too! I was a high lead logger, and worked at several sawmills, out in the
            > > Forest! Out in the lumber camps - the forest. Fighting forest fires out of
            > > helicopters - Heli-tack!
            > >
            > > <http://www.google.ca/images?q=high+lead+logging&rls=com.microsoft%3A*%3AIE-Sear\
            > > chBox&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&sourceid=ie7&rlz=1I7GGLG_enCA309&oi=image_result_group&s\
            > > a=X>
            > >
            > > But, the politicians - well, my impression is that they are fairly directly
            > > "corrupt" in India, and take cash from individuals and corporations as bribes
            > > probably more than in the USA, where they have at least some reporting of who
            > > bribes whom. In Canada, there is probably quite a bit less than either the
            > > States or India. One reason is, we can usually throw out an unpopular
            > > government. But, we have more people-oriented laws, than the States, and more
            > > Observation and Reporting probably than India. If some politician is caught
            > > taking a direct bribe in Canada, they Probably would have a hard time of it!
            > >
            > > And I don't think there is all That much direct bribery in Canada. However, when
            > > a corporation gets its way, often there will be money and jobs, so corporations
            > > often Do get their way with politicians anyway.
            > >
            > > Most of all that Revolution stuff would be in India and the USA rather than
            > > Canada, I think! In the States, they have some big problems: all their jobs went
            > > to China and they can't all cook hamburgers for each other. They have no laws
            > > against corporate bribery, as long as it is done in the proper way. I suppose
            > > that their government is so huge that individual people don't get thrown out
            > > very often, and it doesn't matter - there are 10 more just like that one.
            > >
            > > But, the States, they owe 30 years worth of money, as "Debt" - obviously they
            > > could never repay even a small fraction of it. Also, no work - it all went to
            > > cheap labour markets. Also, for some people, they can make millions, but other
            > > people work for $5 an hour. They have a bizarre tax system.
            > >
            > > Right, so it is hard to predict their future - but their unemployed and
            > > impoverished people aren't very happy! About 45,000 of them die a year just from
            > > being too poor to pay for Health Insurance. To get a good university degree,
            > > they need hundreds of thousands of dollars. To get Any degree, they need Many
            > > thousands of dollars.
            > >
            > > So lots of them are unhappy. Their future looks very dim. Probably they will
            > > have to join the Army and go pillaging.
            > >
            > > In India - Swamiji knows more than me! A person doesn't hear All that much about
            > > India over here. It sounds like a complicated business, with castes and clans
            > > and groupings and all sorts of intrigue.
            > >
            > > I think that the underlying problem is that Dumb people who cannot Do anything
            > > go into politics and management. People who have brains and skill and education
            > > go into other fields. So you get a lot of dull-witted people in government,
            > > often with very little education - useless for running Anything. And those are
            > > the people that run our countries, provinces, cities, etc. All the educated
            > > people are off giving lectures at the university.
            > >
            > > Politicians just have to be publicly Likeable - nice - jolly - strong, brave,
            > > exemplary - no brains needed, and no education needed. Those would be a
            > > liability, as with Ethics. Also, that will not change. People are chosen for
            > > Cuteness, not ability to run any show. All things to all voters.
            > >
            > > So there isn't that much point in complaining! You would have to change the
            > > entire system radically, and many people would not understand and would not
            > > agree. And it would take decades of focussed, concerted effort and eternal
            > > vigilance. So no way.
            > >
            > > At this point, it is pretty much Survival, from here on in. Many things cannot
            > > be changed - a person has to adapt.
            > >
            > > =========
            > > To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a
            > > rumour and are mismerizing advertisements and foolmaking.
            > > =========
            > >
            > > That is why we are doomed - there is a persistent failure to understand our
            > > situation, these last few decades.
            > >
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Starvation
            > >
            > > According to the World Health Organization, hunger is the single gravest threat
            > > to the world's public health. The WHO also states that malnutrition is by far
            > > the biggest contributor to child mortality, present in half of all cases. Six
            > > million children die of hunger every year.
            > >
            > > Figures on actual starvation are difficult to come by, but according to the FAO,
            > > the less severe condition of undernourishment currently affects about 925
            > > million people, or about 14 % of the world population.
            > > ===================
            > >
            > > So, for you who has food and shelter - no problem! But for the 6 million
            > > children a year - big problem! They don't even bother to count adults - only
            > > children.
            > >
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Overpopulation
            > >
            > > 1804 | 1 billion
            > > 1927 | 2 billion | 123 years
            > > 1959 | 3 billion | 32 years
            > > 1974 | 4 billion | 15 years
            > > 1987 | 5 billion | 13 years
            > > 1999 | 6 billion | 12 years
            > > 2011 | 7 billion | 12 years
            > >
            > > Nearly half of India's children are malnourished, according to recent government
            > > data.
            > > ============
            > >
            > > That should assure you that, unless there is some radical change, there will be
            > > about a billion new people every 12 years. It could speed up - it can't slow
            > > down by much, as the absolute numbers are high. It could be 10 or 11 years.
            > >
            > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sustainability
            > >
            > > In March 2009 at a meeting of the Copenhagen Climate Council, 2,500 climate
            > > experts from 80 countries issued a keynote statement that there is now "no
            > > excuse" for failing to act on global warming and that without strong carbon
            > > reduction "abrupt or irreversible" shifts in climate may occur that "will be
            > > very difficult for contemporary societies to cope with".
            > > ======================
            > >
            > > These people are so understated, they are like Peter Pan warning Hulk Hogan.
            > >
            > > "Very difficult to cope with" - well, yeah! Probably most life on Earth will be
            > > gone within decades.
            > >
            > > "without strong carbon reduction "abrupt or irreversible" shifts in climate may
            > > occur" - well, yeah! And you can't do it - so that is quite a problem.
            > >
            > > "Failing to act" - well, sure, but it is already a lost game. All these things
            > > model really well on the computer. You CAN'T reduce emissions enough to make any
            > > difference, and you cannot sequester enough CO2 to make any difference.
            > >
            > > Population rise will be a big problem of the future - it is already a big
            > > problem - besides people starving to death, millions die from the pollution
            > > already every year. But in the future, it won't be a problem, because there will
            > > be no more people. There is no oversight, no limits, and people will just keep
            > > going as long as they can. There is nothing that can reverse the using up of the
            > > planet. She's almost done.
            > >
            > > Right, so no point in complaining now! It's all adaptation.
            > >
            > > Bud Skinner
            > > =====================================================================
            > > --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Swamiji" <manavatavadi@> wrote:
            > > >
            > > > Two Peas in a Pod,: By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
            > > >
            > > > <http://www.nytimes.com/2011/11/09/opinion/friedman-india-and-america-two-peas-in-a-pod.html?_r=1&nl=todaysheadlines&emc=tha212>
            > > >
            > > > From: gman1149@
            > > > Date: Nov 9, 2011 07:54:03 PM
            > > > Subject: Any comment?
            > > > To: manavatavadi@
            > > >
            > > > November 8, 2011
            > > > Two Peas in a Pod
            > > > By THOMAS L. FRIEDMAN
            > > > Goa, India
            > > >
            > > > The world's two biggest democracies, India and the United States, are going through remarkably similar bouts of introspection. Both countries are witnessing grass-roots movements against corruption and excess. The difference is that Indians are protesting what is illegal — a system requiring bribes at every level of governance to get anything done. And Americans are protesting what is legal — a system of Supreme Court-sanctioned bribery in the form of campaign donations that have enabled the financial-services industry to effectively buy the U.S. Congress, and both political parties, and thereby resist curbs on risk-taking.
            > > >
            > > > But the similarities do not stop there. What has brought millions of Indians into the streets to support the India Against Corruption movement and what seems to have triggered not only the Occupy Wall Street movement but also initiatives like Americanselect.org — a centrist group planning to use the Internet to nominate an independent presidential candidate — is a sense that both countries have democratically elected governments that are so beholden to special interests that they can no longer deliver reform. Therefore, they both need shock therapy from outside.
            > > >
            > > > The big difference is that, in America, the Occupy Wall Street movement has no leader and no consensus demand. And while it enjoys a lot of passive support, its activist base is small. India Against Corruption has millions of followers and a charismatic leader, the social activist Anna Hazare, who went on a hunger strike until the Indian Parliament agreed to create an independent ombudsman with the staff and powers to investigate and prosecute corruption at every level of Indian governance and to do so in this next session of Parliament. A furious debate is now raging here over how to ensure that such an ombudsman doesn't turn into an Indian "Big Brother," but some new ombudsman position appears likely to be created.
            > > >
            > > > Arvind Kejriwal, Hazare's top deputy, told me, "Gandhi said that whenever you do any protests, your demands should be very clear, and it should be very clear who is the authority who can fulfill that demand, so your protests should be directed at that authority." If your movement lacks leadership at first, that is not necessarily a problem, he added, "because often leaders evolve. But the demands have to be very clear." A sense of injustice and widening income gaps brought Occupy Wall Street into the street, "but exactly what needs to be done, which law needs to be changed and who are they demanding that from?" asked Kejriwal. "These things have to be answered quickly."
            > > >
            > > > That said, there are still many parallels between the Indian and American movements. Both seem to have been spurred to action by a sense that corruption or financial excess had crossed some redlines. In the United States, despite the fact that elements of the financial-services industry nearly sank the economy in 2008, that same industry is still managing to blunt sensible reform efforts because it has so much money to sway Congress. It seems to have learned nothing. People are angry.
            > > >
            > > > Meanwhile, in India, the commodities and telecommunications booms, coupled with urbanization that is driving up land prices, have set loose billions of rupees, and officials who control zoning and mining permits have just been pigging out. Some 50 top officials have been jailed lately for everything from the crony allocation of wireless spectrum, leading to potential losses to the state of up to $38 billion, to illicitly selling Indian iron ore, needed for development here, to China for a higher price. People are fed up.
            > > >
            > > > Yet, commented the Indian writer Chetan Bhagat in The Times of India on Monday, "our government attacks almost every anti-corruption crusader" and "sadly, even our opposition parties have lots of corrupt people." Sound familiar? Democracy not only needs a decent ruling party, but an intelligent opposition, and neither India nor America has both today.
            > > >
            > > > Yes, Indians are mad at a system that makes them pay a bribe to get their birth certificate. Americans are mad at a system that has made it legal for unions to bribe the officials who will decide their pay and for bankers to bribe the lawmakers who will decide how much risk they can take. But both are essentially threatened by the same disease, best captured in the title of Robert Kaiser's book about lobbying — "So Damn Much Money" — and it's being thrown around now by so many special interests that these democracies are not only being warped by it but can't fix themselves either.
            > > >
            > > > Hazare has called this moment India's "second struggle for independence." I think he is on to something for both India and America. I think that repairing our respective dysfunctional democracies — so they are truly enablers for the 21st century and not inhibitors in India's case or "the sum of all lobbies" in America's case — is for our generation what the independence movement in India and the civil rights movement in America were for our parents' generation. Here's hoping we're as successful.
            > > >
            > > >
            > > > ==============================================
            > > > MY REPLY FOLLOW THUS:
            > > > =============================================
            > > > Noble Dr. Gunther,
            > > > Humblest Greetings=Namaskar.
            > > >
            > > > I tend to disagree with the comparision/analysis to the extent that the analyser is idealisticly blindfolded about the natural trends and acts of the ruling system anywhere and everywhere which mean to exist ever by being as permanent parasites. This blind folded idealism is also a permanent material of the pseudo-political thinkers of the human history. Socrates and Marx were not away from this blind folded idealism. Bribing, taxing or corruption are very useless terms. I instead want to term them as mutualisation, robbery and reciprocity. I am in absolute disagreement with the venture of revolutions/massacres/mass killing for all these pseudo-paradising-mania of guised dominion cravers known as mass/folk leaders. Socretes' misconcept of Aristocracy which resulted as majoritarianism wraped as democracy and Marx's misconcept of prolitariatistic massacre transiting to socialism and subsequently would transit to the dreamland of Communism a dream paradise was shadistive idealism and too far from realistic thinking. Reading addictive people influenced from volumnous books are to fall prey of reading and dreaming addictism like the foolish fighter's story. I don't find any dis-similarity in any democracy/majoritarian bully-ism. For me the segments as nations, countries are un-needed burdens on people. The development of technologies has virtually reduced the need of productive labour for any workable youth about to a 2-00 hours engagement and no much labour to produce all livable luxuries for all 7 bellion people of the world. To my mind population rise may be a problem of the future but at present it is a rumour and are mismerizing advertisements and foolmaking. Some thoughtful people are required to escape themselves from the trapping psychology of ruling-must phenomenon and then only some possibility of un-prejudiced and purely human value based concept of co-existence of all people may grow out of that.
            > > >
            > > > You know, I am an unlearnt,, savage forester at my background so I should beg pardon for my flaws in thinking, expression, language and typing to oblige me and have sympathy on my position.
            > > >
            > > > Cordially,
            > > > Swamiji
            > > >
            > >
            >
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