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  • Ernie Schreiber
    Posted by: enquire25 enquire25@yahoo.com enquire25 on Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:51 pm (PST) I have questioned some information from another site and would be
    Message 1 of 33 , Mar 1 6:16 AM
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      Posted by: "enquire25" enquire25@... enquire25

      on Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:51 pm (PST)


      I have questioned some information from another site and would be pleased to
      have a response from Ernie and/or Klaus or anyone else with the experience.
      Other (atheist) members of the Group have tried to point out that Hitler
      Germany was a Christian State. One person says No! and posted the following
      song to show that Germans were taught anti-Christian messages. Your posts
      would be appreciated. Thanks. Ken.


      Comment from Ernie Schreiber:
      The "song" didn't get through, so I don't know what you are talking about.
      I grew up in Nürnberg, the city of Nazi Party conventions. I had some
      atheist friends and they told me their organization was now forbidden and
      all their assets were confiscated by the state. Hitler himself signed the
      concordat with the Vatican and repeatedly, in his speeches, referred to
      "providence" and of the importance of believing in a higher power that is,
      of course, aligned with the Nazi ideology of racial ("Arian") purity.
      Hitler saw himself as a messenger from God to save the German nation from
      the evil Jews. The SS was like as new racially clean priesthood. Most
      certainly, Hitler and the Nazi movement never ever promoted atheism. Some
      lyrics of some songs were often changed or misrepresented by some groups,
      but that was never sanctioned by the Nazi government. One example: "...und
      Heute gehört und Deutschland und morgen die ganze Welt" (today we own
      Germany and tomorrow the whole world) was a misrepresentation of the
      original lyrics that read: "und heuite da hört uns Deutschland und morgen
      die ganze Welt" (...today Germany hears us, and tomorrow the whole world).
      In German "gehört" und "da hört" sounds very similar and is easily switched
      around. There are numerous examples of such things.

      At any rate, Neither Hitler nor the Nazi movement were atheistic in any
      sense of the word.

      Regards,
      H. E. (Ernie) Schreiber
      EUNACOM Secular Journal: http://eunacom.net
      Discussion List Server at: <eunacom@yahoogroups.com>


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    • enquire25
      ... Ken comment. I would like to thank those who responded to my request for information about religion in wartime Germany. They were posted on another site
      Message 33 of 33 , Mar 8 8:31 PM
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        --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "enquire25" <enquire25@...> wrote:



        Ken comment. I would like to thank those who responded to my request for information about religion in wartime Germany. They were posted on another site and well received. Here is a typical remark:

        "How refreshing to read posts from reasoned and intelligent posters. Their personal experiences tell us more about the War than any historical recorded event.

        Thanks for this.
        Cass"

        >Thanks again. Ken.


        >
        >
        > --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Ernie Schreiber" <eunacom@> wrote:
        > >
        >
        > (Copy/paste)Comment from Ernie Schreiber: I have snipped most of the text from Dicoll"
        > > and Ken to save space, but I wish to add some things to David's reply that
        > > seems to need mentioning, at least in my own opinion; so I have repeated
        > > only David's posting here and interspersed my comments
        >
        >
        >
        > Ken comment. Thank you, Ernie, for a wonderful post. Your comments confirm many stories I have heard from other servicemen. I visited Moscow several times during the "Cold War" with the express purpose of placing flowers on the tomb of the unknown soldier. Over the years I met many ordinary Russians and found them to be really nice, warm people.
        >
        > You spoke of your father in the army. My brother was in the British infantry and spoke of the German army with the greatest of respect. He mentioned how hurtful it was to do house to house fighting and when the fighting had died down after great resistance, they would enter the houses to find that---as he put it, "We had been fighting old men, older than father". Another thing he found hard to take, was when they came across Hitler Youth defending a place. He said they were fearless fighters and hard to defeat, but it was terrible to see young fine youths lying dead after such a battle.
        >
        > Thank you Ernie, you brought back many memories of the fine people that exist in all walks of life---atheist; Christian; Moslem; Hindu; Communist, Fascist; Palestinians, I have walked with all of them and wonder why we are so easily led to believe ill of them. As you say; there are bad people on all sides. Unfortunately, too many of them are in the West. I am glad your Dad lived to a good age. Ken.
        >
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        >
        > >
        > > ---------------------
        >
        >
        >
        > > Posted by: "enquire25" enquire25@ enquire25
        > > on Fri Mar 5, 2010 12:44 am PST--
        > >
        > > In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "enquire25" <enquire25@> wrote:
        > >
        > > Ken comment. There are some excellent posts from this Group. Does anyone
        > > mind if I copy and paste some of them to another site? Ken.
        > >
        > > >
        > > > --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, "Dicoll" <dicoll@> wrote:
        > > > >
        > > > > Does it really matter whether or why an historical figure was Atheist or
        > > > > not?
        > >
        > > > > ---
        > >
        > > In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, david danel <david_danel@> wrote
        > >
        > > --------------------:
        > >
        > > Comment from Ernie Schreiber: I have snipped most of the text from Dicoll"
        > > and Ken to save space, but I wish to add some things to David's reply that
        > > seems to need mentioning, at least in my own opinion; so I have repeated
        > > only David's posting here and interspersed my comments
        > >
        > > ---------------------
        > > David wrote: > > Dear Ken,
        > > > > >
        > > > > > let me reply shortly, if you don't mind:
        > > > > >
        > > > > > Ken comment. Thank you, David, but I am not after BELIEF, I am after
        > > > > > FACTS.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > - let me just remind that "a fact" is not a once for all decided
        > > > > > category. if you browse history the facts change so often according
        > > > > > the interpret/the speaker. if you go to the physics there's a lot of
        > > > > > so called facts demanding belief... if you are within a realm of
        > > > > > philosophy there's clash after clash in ideas what a fact is actually.
        > > > > > I remember what I have been told about evolution and darwinism at
        > > > > > school: half of it today is not valid or is totally reinterpreted. So,
        > > > > > Ken, where's the clear black and white line where the belief ends and
        > > > > > fact starts? Or where the fact stops and belief takes over?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > YOU: We know what damage "belief" has done to the minds of many
        > > > > > people who have BELIEVED in the Christian religion without question.
        > > > > > Do
        > > > > > you KNOW from personal experience?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- I witnessed it the other way round. Personally, very firsthand, I
        > > > > > saw what DAMAGE the so called non-belief (the communists called it
        > > > > > "scientific-materialism") did to people individually and to the
        > > > > > society in whole during the Communism. In my surroundings that time,
        > > > > > it was the Christians who were the intellectual, brilliant minds
        > > > > > opposing the totalitarism, and it was the Christian individuals who
        > > > > > were not scared, who were generous, open minded, healthy
        > > > > > mentally...What do you say to that? > > >
        > > > > > YOU: Do you know a person who was in the
        > > > > > German armed forces who was ordered to sing it? Were you personally in
        > > > > > the German armed forces and obliged to sing it? Or are you like so
        > > > > > many
        > > > > > people who propagate information from other sources, having not
        > > > > > bothered to verify it. Were you told by another Christian who, like so
        > > > > > many, will repeat anything if it helps to cover up the disgusting
        > > > > > history of the Christian Church. Ken.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > --- Yes, I know a person who was in the German armed forces and I have
        > > > > > heard from him many striking and scaring stories. Furthermore, in my
        > > > > > grandma's garden during the last days of German occupation there was
        > > > > > this German soldier on his knees and praying to God to forgive him
        > > > > > that he didn't have enough courage to flee the army, he wept and
        > > > > > apologized to my grandma's family for all the Germans did and was
        > > > > > convinced that God would never approve it.... Soon after the Germans
        > > > > > fled, there came the Russians, "the liberators", who in a barbaric
        > > > > > manner raped women, stole and destroyed all there was left. They never
        > > > > > prayed nor apologized to anyone around, as I heard.
        > > ------------------------
        > > Comment from Ernie:
        > > I, too, try to stick to facts and sometimes these are hard to dig up. I have
        > > the Grolier Multimedia Reference Suite of 1999 (5 CDs) that include an
        > > encyclopaedia, I also have the 12 volume Brockhaus, and I get info from the
        > > Internet, and then I have my own, personal experiences and those of my
        > > father who was drafted into the German Army when they were getting desperate
        > > for people (my father, a banker, was 41 years old then, while I was only
        > > 14). My father was at the Russian front while my mother and I were being
        > > bombed at home in Nuernberg, never knowing if any of us were going to see
        > > the next morning. I remember when Dr. Josef Goebbels, minister of propaganda
        > > and enlightenment in the Nazi government, some years earlier, introduced
        > > Hitler at one of his speeches as: "the greatest field marshal of all times!"
        > > That was after Hitler started invading the Soviet Union with which
        > > Ribbentrop had signed a peace pact just a few years earlier. Even I, at my
        > > young age, was wondering then why such a great field marshal gets himself
        > > into a two-fronts war at both sides of the country and I already feared we'd
        > > have to pay for that dearly. Of course, Goebbels earned his Ph.D. in
        > > literature and history at Heidelberg and attended a Jesuit College earlier
        > > where he learned how to lie and to propagandize. We actually thought none of
        > > us would survive this.
        > >
        > > On the other end of the scale there was a ruthless dictator, the Georgian
        > > (from Gori) Josef Vissarionovich Djugashvili, better known as Josef Stalin
        > > (the man of steel). His mother, Ekatarina, sent him to the Tiflis
        > > Theological Seminary in the hope that he would become a priest. By his own
        > > words, the discipline at the seminary provided him with an impetus toward
        > > revolutionary activism. The Russian people were used to being brutalized by
        > > the aristocratic government that was supported by the Russian Orthodox
        > > Church. Stalin was always worried about being assassinated, thus his
        > > frequent purges and his strict control of religion and churches (not all
        > > churches were torn down or prohibited; the Soviet Union was never totally
        > > atheistic just as it was never really communist in accordance with all of
        > > Marx's principles).
        > >
        > > My father was taken prisoner at the end of the war in Lithuania at the time
        > > of the unconditional capitulation of Germany. He was expecting to be beaten
        > > or killed. Instead, he was surprised to be transported by rail to Moscow
        > > where, his troop was told, they will help re-build war damage. In Moscow
        > > everybody was given a medical to see if they were fit for work. Many,
        > > including my father, were found to be undernourished and not strong enough
        > > for heavy work. So they received extra rations and marched to minor work
        > > details. My father told us that he was surprised how well they were treated
        > > after all that had happened and the hardships the Russian people had to
        > > endure. He recalled one incident where the guards asked them to sing a
        > > German marching song (O du schoener Westerwald,ueber Deine Hoehen weht der
        > > Wind so kalt....) and my father was, again, surprised to see tears running
        > > down a guard's face. Perhaps it has something to do with the Russian psyche
        > > (some might call it soul) but it shows that not everybody was ruthless and
        > > brutal, religion or no religion. My father returned home in reasonably good
        > > health (he even still had his golden wedding ring on his finger!) by the end
        > > of 1945, and even our apartment had survived. Father died at age 85 of
        > > natural causes. We were lucky.
        > >
        > >
        > > The whole World War !! experience has taught me that you don't need religion
        > > to be good, and you certainly don't need any God to be moral. You just need
        > > humanity, critical thinking, and compassion, and you have to beware falling
        > > for cheap propaganda tricks used by all those who want to manipulate you to
        > > do their dirty work.
        > >
        > >
        > > To give just one more example: We are told Muslims are dangerous and evil
        > > terrorists, and we have to defeat them. In my neighbourhood, many Muslim
        > > families have moved in over the last few years. A friend of mine, a
        > > physician, has married a Muslim woman and seems to be Ok and happy with
        > > that. Our crime rate has not increased, no bombs have been thrown, and I
        > > converse regularly with Muslim neighbours. Nobody has threatened me or my
        > > family, nobody has insulted us; yet, we constantly hear warning about these
        > > troublesome Muslims. No Muslim has come to our house trying to convert us to
        > > Islam; however, the Watchtower people stopped showing up now. Is another
        > > propaganda campaign in the making??? Does somebody want another war? Sure,
        > > there are bad apples among all groups of people, that's quite normal, but
        > > our jails are not full of atheist as far as I can tell...
        > >
        > > [end of Ernie's comment]
        > >
        > >
        > > > > > Ken, living in Europe is living with a painful history still present
        > > > > > somehow. Arguing, what was worse whether the Catholic and other
        > > > > > churches that deformed and discredit the idea of Christianity while in
        > > > > > power or whether atheism in its totalitaristic politics of Communism
        > > > > > and partly Nazism, has no point for me. I don't wish you nor Gio,
        > > > > > Ernie, Horst and others the brutal brainwash and total absence of
        > > > > > tolerance and respect that there was during the reign of Communism in
        > > > > > our Eastern Europe countries. But if you want, come and see. Interview
        > > > > > the people who still remember, read the propaganda books, the atheist
        > > > > > "scientific" works, see the damage yourself. the damage on humanity.
        > > > > >
        > > > > > I think the time has come when we should not argue whether "belief" or
        > > > > > "belief-free" attitude is better, let's leave this onto everyone's
        > > > > > choice and his/her private sphere. But let's work together towards the
        > > > > > future which is more "human" and more "godly" at the same time - where
        > > > > > people are respected in their uniqueness, their rights, where we are
        > > > > > not abused by systems and politicians or corporations etc. etc. Do you
        > > > > > agree?
        > > > > >
        > > > > > david
        > >
        > > ---------------------------
        > >
        > > Final comment from Ernie:I agree with your final paragraph if you'd leave
        > > out "godly." There is no possible proof that God exists. Our world will
        > > exist as it is today for a while longer, regardless if any "God" exists.
        > > Eventually it will go poof from natural causes and exterminate all life if
        > > human beings don't destroy it's life-promoting environment prematurely, and
        > > without any "godly" help or action.
        > >
        > >
        > > Regards,
        > >
        > > H. E. (Ernie) Schreiber
        > > EUNACOM Secular Journal: http://eunacom.net
        > > Discussion List Server at: <eunacom@yahoogroups.com>
        > >
        > >
        > >
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