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4800Re: [CanadianAtheist] Re: A Vatican Spring?

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  • david danel
    Mar 6, 2013
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      Dear Dan,
      I know it is hard for you (and others here on this forum) to believe, but Atheism in the former communist countries of Eastern Europe was a kind of religion:
      - Atheism was required as a certain type of public behaviour- the leaders of the system on many levels clearly required denouncing any personal attachments to personal belief or its organized forms (Christianity, Judaism) - you had to claim in front of committees, juries, employers that you are an Atheist, a Marxist-Atheist- active religious leaders were persecuted, jailed, executed- Atheism was taught in schools as the only compatible world-view with the scientific approach, people made exams from so called Marxism-Atheism and if you did not pass you were not able to advance- NON-belief and its marxist-atheist form was a kind of official "Credo", or as important as "Liberte-Egalite-Fraternite" statement
      Dan, I am aware that you decided once for all times and you have your reasons why you are an Atheist. I deeply respect that, but I just try to make a point once in a while in this discussion that Atheism CAN be misused, and it was misused many times in history, just as religions were; that things are not as easy and black-and-white as you'd like to see them (religions as source of all evil, atheism as a comfortable private zone not harmful to anyone) and so on. Believe, I have experience the horrors of "applied Atheism" on my own skin, on my family and friends' health, relationships, careers...
      There are plenty of books that prove that Atheism can as simply as anything else can become a kind of cult, religion (btw, New Atheism of Dawkins, Harries and Hitchens shows clear symptoms, signs of a sect), so it is not only my own assumption. I can make a research for you and bring a pile of names of sociologists, philisophers, psychologists who stand in the same line as me.

      So, to your statements I always have a comment or question:
      You should know that the prohibition of religion is not Atheism.- ok, but it was different between 1945 - 1989 here. There was no prohibition of religion, Atheism was just something required to enter jobs, universities. You did the expert tests and then you went through a Marxism-Atheism test followed by an interview. If you admitted you were a Christian you were most probably lost at the very moment, no matter what

      Atheism is the absence of religion. You cannot enforce not believing in something because there is nothing to enforce.
      - you think so. but the reality was very, very different. They were enforcing it to death. Literally.
      Religion on the other hand demands a certain public behaviour, the following of certain rituals and the participation in certain gatherings.- what about the "gatherings of the Brights"? the Beyond Belief sessions etc.?

      The Atheist is an individual who, on a personal level, has recognized the dissonance in religious teachings and has come to the conclusion that the teachings promoted by religion are bogus and amount to no more than superstition..
      --- yes, there are many dissonances in religions, as there are in atheism
      Every Atheist has his own reasons as to why the doubts began but they ultimately arrive at the same conclusion. Atheists may be free from religion but that does not mean they are without a strong set of ethics. The difference is that Atheists ethics are verifiable by experience, independent from arbitrary assumptions of authority or creed.- ok, I fully respect that. I don't doubt the so called Atheist ethics (my own are also not enforced by arbitrary assumptions /creed is something very different, Dan/ ), but please, be able to see the downfall and errors or horrors of "applied Atheism" (I guess you would not associate with it leaving as me in the communist block - perhaps you would convert to Christianity rather than living this dreadful and tragic parody on Atheism here)

      All that I write is not meant to attack any of you, my Atheist "brothers and sisters". I like to read your post, to see what's on the debate panel in Canada etc. I believe some of the Atheist iniciatives are much needed for the health of the "believing world". And yes, in many cases you are RIGHT and even BRIGHTER than the Church guys. Just don't childishly think that your truth is the final Truth. It simply cannot be (so as the religious truth cannot be) ;)
      Best regards,
      david

      --- On Wed, 3/6/13, dicoll3000 <dicoll3000@...> wrote:

      From: dicoll3000 <dicoll3000@...>
      Subject: [CanadianAtheist] Re: A Vatican Spring?
      To: CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com
      Date: Wednesday, March 6, 2013, 3:29 AM
















       









      David,



      You keep making the same assumptions.



      "….Atheism (check up the history of Soviet Union, ex-communist countries in the Eastern Europe, Cambodia, Cuba, China – atheism linked to state system, so called communism)"



      You should know that the prohibition of religion is not Atheism.



      Atheism is the absence of religion. You cannot enforce not believing in something because there is nothing to enforce.



      Religion on the other hand demands a certain public behaviour, the following of certain rituals and the participation in certain gatherings.



      The Atheist is an individual who, on a personal level, has recognized the dissonance in religious teachings and has come to the conclusion that the teachings promoted by religion are bogus and amount to no more than superstition..



      Every Atheist has his own reasons as to why the doubts began but they ultimately arrive at the same conclusion. Atheists may be free from religion but that does not mean they are without a strong set of ethics. The difference is that Atheists ethics are verifiable by experience, independent from arbitrary assumptions of authority or creed.



      Regards, Dan Roper

      ------------------------------------



      --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, david danel wrote:

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      > Dan,

      > thanks for your post. Yes, I know that well. Christianity was a sect, indeed. Perhaps, its founder, say Jesus, never meant it to be so overgrown, so attached to secular power, perhaps it was supposed to be a kind of personal meditation path, a practice of humbliness and deeds of mercy etc. Ok. 

      > BUT: the same what you state on the violent dimension of Christianity spread can be said about Islam, certain types of Buddhism, Hinduism, Atheism (check up the history of Soviet Union, ex-communist countries in the Eastern Europe, Cambodia, Cuba, China - atheism linked to state system, so called communism)

      > SO, if you went honest and studied the history careful, you could well see how Christianity was changing invividual lives, how it changed whole societies (stopping cannibalism, slavery, violence against women etc. etc. etc.) There are plenty of examples how individual people adopted Christianity or Christian world-view - be it scientists, artists, politicians, average citizen...

      > and BY THE WAY, the history showed already that homo sapiens somehow needs religion (of any kind) anyway. Once people tried to cut off links to organized religion (French Revolution, communist societies, nazi communities) they easily, and with even more disastrous results, adopt other destructive types of cults and then even atheism becomes a monstrous cult, sect, brain-washing system deforming science, culture and history. Sad, sad, sad. 

      >

      > I don't want to convert anyone, I have many atheist friends, I see much of your point, but let's try not to be biased, both sides. By the way, try to read the book by Tomas Halik (Czech philosopher and sociologist) "The Patience with God" (Doubleday) and tell me what you think honestly.

      > the spring is coming back to us here. how about Canada?

      > greetings, david

      >

      > --- On Tue, 3/5/13, dicoll3000 wrote:

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      > From: dicoll3000

      > Subject: [CanadianAtheist] Re: A Vatican Spring?

      > To: CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com

      > Date: Tuesday, March 5, 2013, 2:57 PM

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      > David,

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      > I see the growth of the RC church more as a violent conquest.

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      > In the early days, Christianity was indeed just a sect, until the Roman Emperor Constantin declared it as state religion. From that moment on, the growth of the RC church became exponential. It was however through force, intimidation and coercion that the 'Heathens' were brought into the religious fold.

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      > Goes to demonstrate that the difference between a sect and a religion is government support.

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      > Regards, Dan Roper

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      > --------------------------------------

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      > --- In CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com, david danel wrote:

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      > > Ernie,

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      > > I guess irrelevant sects don't tend to not only survive 2000 yrs, but also build societies, make scientific milestones, leave flourishing culture behind, make people better... (of course, making many many failures on the way too)

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      > > just my humble opinion

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      > > david

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      > > --- On Sun, 3/3/13, sam wrote:

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      > > From: sam

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      > > Subject: Re: [CanadianAtheist] A Vatican Spring?

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      > > To: CanadianAtheist@yahoogroups.com

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      > > Date: Sunday, March 3, 2013, 6:00 PM

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      > > On Sat, 2 Mar 2013 10:38:49 -0500

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      > > Ernie Schreiber eunacom@> wrote:

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      > > > Could the resignation of Pope Benedict be the critical point of

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      > > > either a reformation of the church or else a sinking into oblivion

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      > > > of just another irrelevant sect? What do you think?

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      > > 'Twill be very interesting to see...

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      > > outcome of St. Malachy's prophecy.

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      > > http://www.biblebelievers.org.au/malachy.htm

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      > > imo,

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      > > sam*

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      > > --

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      > > Religions are Bronze Age phantasy,

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      > > time to consign them to History.

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