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Troika & Other dances sent to the farm

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  • Tsire Tuzevo
    Christian and List argh! star trek! I spit hot coffee! Too funny. and now for the serious portion of our show.... To send a dance out to the farm where it can
    Message 1 of 12 , Apr 22, 2008
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      Christian and List

      argh! star trek! I spit hot coffee! Too funny.

      and now for the serious portion of our show....

      To send a dance out to the farm where it can play out it's remaining years is a great thing. This is, believe it or not, my favored method of making more period dance happen. As vocal as I seem about topic, you will rarely find me on lists discussing it, and you will never find me discussing it unbidden.

      Here is the major place that I get stuck. If you don't teach a dance and don't mention a dance, what do you do when someone asks you specifically why you don't do it? Well, I try to explain why I made that choice and why it makes sense for me. I try to be rational and factual and gently make my point. However, when I do this, I am met with whining, complaining, incendiary language, frustration, anger, and endless mind-numbing, antactid-requiring debates.

      It baffles me that my opinion and explanation of my choices can seem so much like 'fightin' words' to some. It confuses me further that a bid to do more period things in a history club is seen as such a negative thing. I've never asked that people stop doing these dances altogether. I've asked that people be educated as to what they really are doing. I've asked them to think critically about the choices they make. I choose not to dance, teach, include in a ball list, or otherwise encourage the propagation of out of period dances. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. If you ask me about it, I'll tell you. If you don't, I won't.

      How am I the bad guy here?

      Any help from any of you on this list would be appreciated here. I really want to know how to get my opinion across and to encourage period dance while never again being revered to as a Nazi.

      Tsire
      The tired, frustrated, antacid chomping dance monkey.



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    • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      Heh.. I ve never considered you the bad guy. It s your spirit that has prompted me to wish to be better informed. Ignorance is not _always_ my preferred
      Message 2 of 12 , Apr 22, 2008
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        Heh.. I've never considered you the bad guy. It's your spirit that has
        prompted me to wish to be better informed. Ignorance is not _always_
        my preferred state of existance... only if it's blissful ignorance.
        Once it stops being blissful, then it needs to be nipped in the
        proverbial bud (that's just to the left of the real bud and quite a bit
        smaller so most people miss it at first glance.. .it's there... I've had
        several women tell me so. I'm taking their word of course. Ah..
        Ignorance can be bliss).

        Tsire Tuzevo wrote:
        > Christian and List
        >
        > argh! star trek! I spit hot coffee! Too funny.
        >
        > and now for the serious portion of our show....
        >
        > To send a dance out to the farm where it can play out it's remaining years is a great thing. This is, believe it or not, my favored method of making more period dance happen. As vocal as I seem about topic, you will rarely find me on lists discussing it, and you will never find me discussing it unbidden.
        >
        > Here is the major place that I get stuck. If you don't teach a dance and don't mention a dance, what do you do when someone asks you specifically why you don't do it? Well, I try to explain why I made that choice and why it makes sense for me. I try to be rational and factual and gently make my point. However, when I do this, I am met with whining, complaining, incendiary language, frustration, anger, and endless mind-numbing, antactid-requiring debates.
        >
        > It baffles me that my opinion and explanation of my choices can seem so much like 'fightin' words' to some. It confuses me further that a bid to do more period things in a history club is seen as such a negative thing. I've never asked that people stop doing these dances altogether. I've asked that people be educated as to what they really are doing. I've asked them to think critically about the choices they make. I choose not to dance, teach, include in a ball list, or otherwise encourage the propagation of out of period dances. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. If you ask me about it, I'll tell you. If you don't, I won't.
        >
        > How am I the bad guy here?
        >
        > Any help from any of you on this list would be appreciated here. I really want to know how to get my opinion across and to encourage period dance while never again being revered to as a Nazi.
        >
        > Tsire
        > The tired, frustrated, antacid chomping dance monkey.
        >
        >
        >
        > _________________________________________________________________
        > Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause.
        > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Contribute/Default.aspx?source=TXT_TAGHM_MSN_Make_IM_Yours
        >
        > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        >
        >
        > ------------------------------------
        >
        > Yahoo! Groups Links
        >
        >
        >
        >

        --

        // Merry

        ----------
        'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
        Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
        http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
        ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

        'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
        pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
      • Conna
        Dearest Tsire, you ve long been my hero in all this. I ve never ever heard you say you refuse to do this-or-that dance. But I have seen you make some wonderful
        Message 3 of 12 , Apr 23, 2008
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          Dearest Tsire, you've long been my hero in all this. I've never ever
          heard you say you refuse to do this-or-that dance. But I have seen you
          make some wonderful suggestions. When a newer dancer walks up, bouncing
          up and down with excitement, and asks for you to do, say, Hole in the
          Wall as the next dance, you flash your dimples and say--How about
          [insert name of more appropriate progression dance here--sorry, I'm
          still on my first cup of coffee].

          I've always admired that ability. And it leaves the person still bouncy
          and excited, and off we go on another lovely dance.

          Thanks for keeping it fun!

          Conna


          On Tuesday, April 22, 2008, at 12:26 PM, Tsire Tuzevo wrote:

          > Christian and List
          >
          > argh! star trek! I spit hot coffee! Too funny.
          >
          > and now for the serious portion of our show....
          >
          > To send a dance out to the farm where it can play out it's remaining
          > years is a great thing. This is, believe it or not, my favored method
          > of making more period dance happen. As vocal as I seem about topic,
          > you will rarely find me on lists discussing it, and you will never
          > find me discussing it unbidden.
          >
          > Here is the major place that I get stuck. If you don't teach a dance
          > and don't mention a dance, what do you do when someone asks you
          > specifically why you don't do it? Well, I try to explain why I made
          > that choice and why it makes sense for me. I try to be rational and
          > factual and gently make my point. However, when I do this, I am met
          > with whining, complaining, incendiary language, frustration, anger,
          > and endless mind-numbing, antactid-requiring debates.
          >
          > It baffles me that my opinion and explanation of my choices can seem
          > so much like 'fightin' words' to some. It confuses me further that a
          > bid to do more period things in a history club is seen as such a
          > negative thing. I've never asked that people stop doing these dances
          > altogether. I've asked that people be educated as to what they really
          > are doing. I've asked them to think critically about the choices they
          > make. I choose not to dance, teach, include in a ball list, or
          > otherwise encourage the propagation of out of period dances. It's my
          > opinion, I'm entitled to it. If you ask me about it, I'll tell you. If
          > you don't, I won't.
          >
          > How am I the bad guy here?
          >
          > Any help from any of you on this list would be appreciated here. I
          > really want to know how to get my opinion across and to encourage
          > period dance while never again being revered to as a Nazi.
          >
          > Tsire
          > The tired, frustrated, antacid chomping dance monkey.
          >
          >
          >
          > __________________________________________________________
          > Make i'm yours.� Create a custom banner to support your cause.
          > http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Contribute/
          > Default.aspx?source=TXT_TAGHM_MSN_Make_IM_Yours
          >
          > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          >
          >

          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • ChazCon
          I hear you, Tsire... Yeah, it sucks, and I can see why you are baffled that this makes you the bad guy . Many, many people just can t hack hearing the words
          Message 4 of 12 , Apr 23, 2008
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            I hear you, Tsire...

            Yeah, it sucks, and I can see why you are baffled that this makes you "the bad guy". Many, many people just can't hack hearing the words "No, not today" without acting the victim. Even when you're just trying to "up" the coolness factor by promoting the time period we are supposed to be interested in.

            I agree, completely, with your attempts to promote dances that are more appropriate to what we are trying to accomplish, as a group, overall. I am also glad that you continue to do what you do, in spite of some negative reactions that you may receive. If what you are doing was easy, it would probably have been done by now.

            By the way, at Gulf Wars this year, Master Octavio (whom I love with all my heart) was bragging, rather gleefully, about never having to play several of the goop songs we were playing at the ball, because "in TRIMARIS, we don't DO these dances".
            Well, I got to brag back to him, that "in CALONTIR, we don't play them EITHER!"
            (well, at least not too much, lately!)

            I have noticed at wars that Calontir has a larger number of "period" tents and people in "period" shoes than many other kingdoms. I like adding "period" dances to that little list.

            So...thanks, Tsire.

            Constantia
            ----- Original Message -----
            From: Tsire Tuzevo
            To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
            Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2008 12:26 PM
            Subject: [CalontirDance] Troika & Other dances sent to the farm


            Christian and List

            argh! star trek! I spit hot coffee! Too funny.

            and now for the serious portion of our show....

            To send a dance out to the farm where it can play out it's remaining years is a great thing. This is, believe it or not, my favored method of making more period dance happen. As vocal as I seem about topic, you will rarely find me on lists discussing it, and you will never find me discussing it unbidden.

            Here is the major place that I get stuck. If you don't teach a dance and don't mention a dance, what do you do when someone asks you specifically why you don't do it? Well, I try to explain why I made that choice and why it makes sense for me. I try to be rational and factual and gently make my point. However, when I do this, I am met with whining, complaining, incendiary language, frustration, anger, and endless mind-numbing, antactid-requiring debates.

            It baffles me that my opinion and explanation of my choices can seem so much like 'fightin' words' to some. It confuses me further that a bid to do more period things in a history club is seen as such a negative thing. I've never asked that people stop doing these dances altogether. I've asked that people be educated as to what they really are doing. I've asked them to think critically about the choices they make. I choose not to dance, teach, include in a ball list, or otherwise encourage the propagation of out of period dances. It's my opinion, I'm entitled to it. If you ask me about it, I'll tell you. If you don't, I won't.

            How am I the bad guy here?

            Any help from any of you on this list would be appreciated here. I really want to know how to get my opinion across and to encourage period dance while never again being revered to as a Nazi.

            Tsire
            The tired, frustrated, antacid chomping dance monkey.



            __________________________________________________________
            Make i'm yours. Create a custom banner to support your cause.
            http://im.live.com/Messenger/IM/Contribute/Default.aspx?source=TXT_TAGHM_MSN_Make_IM_Yours

            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]






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          • Tsire Tuzevo
            Thanks everybody. Your responses are like the hug you need when the day sneaks up and jumps you for your spare change. I get flustered sometimes. I m
            Message 5 of 12 , Apr 23, 2008
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              Thanks everybody. Your responses are like the hug you need when the day sneaks up and jumps you for your spare change. I get flustered sometimes. I'm emotional, connected and passionate. This has it's notably good and bad points.

              Constantia - wahoo go Calontir street cred!

              Yes Christian, it does baffle me. I have this unshakable belief that I'm talking to rational people, and that all people are trustworthy, and have basically good intentions. This gets me into trouble often. I'm just not the cynic I need to be. :)

              One of the things that got my attention was Ermenrich saying he didn't know for 2 years that some dances weren't period. (It's the reason that we did Dance Jeopardy this year) To quote GI Joe "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle" Lack of awareness is one of my biggest frustrations and why I'm so vocal about period dance. I remember being devastated when I began to learn about which dances were and weren't period. I did not learn this in a nice way. Since then I have worked hard to make other people's experience with dance nicer and more fun. I don't deride, I try to inform and I hope it works. Less devastation, more dancey boing!
              If we 'catch em' early and get period dance into their repertoire then they'll be telling me that they'll do Piantone, Villanella, or Confesse at their wedding instead. I fully believe that of the first 5 dances you learn, 2 will become your lifetime favorites. If the first five you learn are period dances, then the ones you'll be begging to do will be period dances....easy, peasy, done. We'll be doing the dances they love and no one feels 'robbed of fun'. It's the dancer catch and release program!

              Tsire (the apparently long winded)


              _________________________________________________________________
              Back to work after baby�how do you know when you�re ready?
              http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A

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            • Becky Buchanan
              What a great thread! Does this mean Hole in the Wall can go to the farm? If so, I ll drive the tractor that takes it there. Also, love this quote of Tsire s:
              Message 6 of 12 , Apr 23, 2008
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                What a great thread! Does this mean "Hole in the Wall" can go to the farm? If so, I'll drive the tractor that takes it there.

                Also, love this quote of Tsire's:
                "If the first five you learn are period dances, then the ones you'll be begging to do will be period dances....easy, peasy, done. We'll be doing the dances they love and no one feels 'robbed of fun'. It's the dancer catch and release program!"

                As you know Tsire, we in Mag Mor are starting bi-weekly dance practice in our Barony, beginning tomorrow. The lovely Sara Sophia is teaching Carolingian "Belle Qui Tiens Ma Vie." I love that song and yes, it's one of the first dance music songs I learned to play, so I guess it hooked me. I don't know who else is showing up tomorrow and the only thing I think I would be remotely qualified to teach would be one Branle. Hopefully, I won't scar anyone for life with my rendition of Horse's Branle. Maybe we'll only do two songs. So what are your top 5 songs for getting new dancers on the right track with period dances? Anyone else want to volunteer their top 5 favorite "catch and release" songs for new dancers?

                Thanks,

                Emelye

                Tsire Tuzevo <tsire@...> wrote:


                Thanks everybody. Your responses are like the hug you need when the day sneaks up and jumps you for your spare change. I get flustered sometimes. I'm emotional, connected and passionate. This has it's notably good and bad points.

                Constantia - wahoo go Calontir street cred!

                Yes Christian, it does baffle me. I have this unshakable belief that I'm talking to rational people, and that all people are trustworthy, and have basically good intentions. This gets me into trouble often. I'm just not the cynic I need to be. :)

                One of the things that got my attention was Ermenrich saying he didn't know for 2 years that some dances weren't period. (It's the reason that we did Dance Jeopardy this year) To quote GI Joe "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle" Lack of awareness is one of my biggest frustrations and why I'm so vocal about period dance. I remember being devastated when I began to learn about which dances were and weren't period. I did not learn this in a nice way. Since then I have worked hard to make other people's experience with dance nicer and more fun. I don't deride, I try to inform and I hope it works. Less devastation, more dancey boing!
                If we 'catch em' early and get period dance into their repertoire then they'll be telling me that they'll do Piantone, Villanella, or Confesse at their wedding instead. I fully believe that of the first 5 dances you learn, 2 will become your lifetime favorites. If the first five you learn are period dances, then the ones you'll be begging to do will be period dances....easy, peasy, done. We'll be doing the dances they love and no one feels 'robbed of fun'. It's the dancer catch and release program!

                Tsire (the apparently long winded)


                _________________________________________________________________
                Back to work after baby–how do you know when you’re ready?
                http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A

                [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]


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              • Matt Lagemann
                My top song is Gathering Peascods. It is simple, fun, and the chorus gets stuck in your head for days. In the end I think English Country is the first
                Message 7 of 12 , Apr 23, 2008
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                  My top song is "Gathering Peascods." It is simple, fun, and the chorus gets stuck in your head for days. In the end I think English Country is the first "type" of dance to teach. Since it has a standard pattern for the verses, people can feel comfortable with it. I recently taught some dances to a Roundevous group in the area and used EC dances so they all had a common theme. It seemed to work well.

                  Ermenrich


                  ________________________________
                  From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com] On Behalf Of Becky Buchanan
                  Sent: Wednesday, April 23, 2008 12:17 PM
                  To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                  Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Troika & Other dances sent to the farm


                  What a great thread! Does this mean "Hole in the Wall" can go to the farm? If so, I'll drive the tractor that takes it there.

                  Also, love this quote of Tsire's:
                  "If the first five you learn are period dances, then the ones you'll be begging to do will be period dances....easy, peasy, done. We'll be doing the dances they love and no one feels 'robbed of fun'. It's the dancer catch and release program!"

                  As you know Tsire, we in Mag Mor are starting bi-weekly dance practice in our Barony, beginning tomorrow. The lovely Sara Sophia is teaching Carolingian "Belle Qui Tiens Ma Vie." I love that song and yes, it's one of the first dance music songs I learned to play, so I guess it hooked me. I don't know who else is showing up tomorrow and the only thing I think I would be remotely qualified to teach would be one Branle. Hopefully, I won't scar anyone for life with my rendition of Horse's Branle. Maybe we'll only do two songs. So what are your top 5 songs for getting new dancers on the right track with period dances? Anyone else want to volunteer their top 5 favorite "catch and release" songs for new dancers?

                  Thanks,

                  Emelye

                  Tsire Tuzevo <tsire@...<mailto:tsire%40hotmail.com>> wrote:


                  Thanks everybody. Your responses are like the hug you need when the day sneaks up and jumps you for your spare change. I get flustered sometimes. I'm emotional, connected and passionate. This has it's notably good and bad points.

                  Constantia - wahoo go Calontir street cred!

                  Yes Christian, it does baffle me. I have this unshakable belief that I'm talking to rational people, and that all people are trustworthy, and have basically good intentions. This gets me into trouble often. I'm just not the cynic I need to be. :)

                  One of the things that got my attention was Ermenrich saying he didn't know for 2 years that some dances weren't period. (It's the reason that we did Dance Jeopardy this year) To quote GI Joe "Now you know, and knowing is half the battle" Lack of awareness is one of my biggest frustrations and why I'm so vocal about period dance. I remember being devastated when I began to learn about which dances were and weren't period. I did not learn this in a nice way. Since then I have worked hard to make other people's experience with dance nicer and more fun. I don't deride, I try to inform and I hope it works. Less devastation, more dancey boing!
                  If we 'catch em' early and get period dance into their repertoire then they'll be telling me that they'll do Piantone, Villanella, or Confesse at their wedding instead. I fully believe that of the first 5 dances you learn, 2 will become your lifetime favorites. If the first five you learn are period dances, then the ones you'll be begging to do will be period dances....easy, peasy, done. We'll be doing the dances they love and no one feels 'robbed of fun'. It's the dancer catch and release program!

                  Tsire (the apparently long winded)

                  __________________________________________________________
                  Back to work after baby-how do you know when you're ready?
                  http://lifestyle.msn.com/familyandparenting/articleNW.aspx?cp-documentid=5797498&ocid=T067MSN40A0701A

                  [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]

                  ------------------------------------

                  Yahoo! Groups Links

                  ---------------------------------
                  Be a better friend, newshound, and know-it-all with Yahoo! Mobile. Try it now.

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                • Tsire Tuzevo
                  Emelye said: So what are your top 5 songs for getting new dancers on the right track with period dances? Anyone else want to volunteer their top 5 favorite
                  Message 8 of 12 , Apr 23, 2008
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                    Emelye said:
                    So what are your top 5 songs for getting new dancers on the right track with period dances? Anyone else want to volunteer their top 5 favorite "catch and release" songs for new dancers?

                    Okay so here's my top 10










                    Carolingian Pavanne
                    Pavanne
                    Beginner
                    Couples in a Line

                    Black Alman
                    Alman
                    Easy
                    Couples in a Line

                    LyBens Dystonis
                    Early English
                    Beginner
                    Couples in a Line

                    Pease Bransle
                    Bransle
                    Beginner
                    Couples in a Circle

                    Scotch Cap
                    ECD
                    Easy
                    3 Couples in a Line

                    Gathering Peascods
                    ECD
                    Easy
                    Couples in a Circle

                    Piantone
                    Game
                    Easy
                    Wheel of Couples

                    Anello
                    15th C Ital
                    Beginner
                    2 Couples Facing One Another

                    Contrapsso in Due
                    16th C. Ital
                    Beginner
                    Couples in a Line

                    Vilanella
                    16th C. Ital
                    Easy
                    Couples in a Line
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                  • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                    ... I have a theory on why people might get grumpy. If they don t dance that often they may fall into the category of: a) we did it long ago b) it s the
                    Message 9 of 12 , Apr 23, 2008
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                      ChazCon wrote:
                      > I hear you, Tsire...
                      >
                      > Yeah, it sucks, and I can see why you are baffled that this makes you "the bad guy". Many, many people just can't hack hearing the words "No, not today" without acting the victim. Even when you're just trying to "up" the coolness factor by promoting the time period we are supposed to be interested in.
                      >
                      I have a theory on why people might get grumpy. If they don't dance
                      that often they may fall into the category of:

                      a) we did it long ago

                      b) it's the only one I remember a) by name b) the steps to c) enjoying

                      c) I don't attend regular practices and dances so I don't know that it's
                      fallen out of favor... or more importantly... why.

                      d) I don't attend regular anything, so when I get a chance to dance
                      you're a jerk if you don't dance my favorite one... I mean.. you get to
                      dance all the time.

                      Of course, if (any of) this is true, it doesn't make it any easier to
                      deal with *sigh*. It's not like you can tell them to 'get with the
                      program, chum' and have that go over well :(

                      > I have noticed at wars that Calontir has a larger number of "period" tents and people in "period" shoes than many other kingdoms. I like adding "period" dances to that little list.
                      >
                      >
                      That's a good attitude to have.... period.
                    • Lady Neathery of Safita
                      I got just my digest of the conversation and I want to say I love you guys! I am so glad that we are having this discussion and Tsire .. you are absolutely my
                      Message 10 of 12 , Apr 24, 2008
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                        I got just my digest of the conversation and I want to say I love you
                        guys! I am so glad that we are having this discussion and Tsire ..
                        you are absolutely my heroine!!!
                        Neathery
                      • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                        She s my heroin too. Seeing her and Delric tonight was a real shot in the arm... A real pick me up. I was jonesin bad, and I got my fix. Oh wait. You said
                        Message 11 of 12 , Apr 24, 2008
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                          She's my heroin too. Seeing her and Delric tonight was a real shot in
                          the arm... A real pick me up. I was jonesin' bad, and I got my fix.
                          Oh wait. You said heroine. My bad.


                          Lady Neathery of Safita wrote:
                          > I got just my digest of the conversation and I want to say I love you
                          > guys! I am so glad that we are having this discussion and Tsire ..
                          > you are absolutely my heroine!!!
                          > Neathery
                          >
                          >
                          > ------------------------------------
                          >
                          > Yahoo! Groups Links
                          >
                          >
                          >
                          >

                          --

                          // Merry

                          ----------
                          'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                          Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                          Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                          http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
                          ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

                          'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                          pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
                        • ChazCon
                          HAH!!! you DAMN funny! ... From: Merry Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 1:37 AM Subject: Re:
                          Message 12 of 12 , Apr 25, 2008
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                            HAH!!!
                            you DAMN funny!
                            ----- Original Message -----
                            From: 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                            To: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com
                            Sent: Friday, April 25, 2008 1:37 AM
                            Subject: Re: [CalontirDance] Re: Troika & Other dances sent to the farm


                            She's my heroin too. Seeing her and Delric tonight was a real shot in
                            the arm... A real pick me up. I was jonesin' bad, and I got my fix.
                            Oh wait. You said heroine. My bad.

                            Lady Neathery of Safita wrote:
                            > I got just my digest of the conversation and I want to say I love you
                            > guys! I am so glad that we are having this discussion and Tsire ..
                            > you are absolutely my heroine!!!
                            > Neathery
                            >
                            >
                            > ------------------------------------
                            >
                            > Yahoo! Groups Links
                            >
                            >
                            >
                            >

                            --

                            // Merry

                            ----------
                            'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
                            Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
                            Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
                            http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
                            ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

                            'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
                            pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'






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