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Re: [CalontirDance] Re: "Baddies"

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  • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
    ... Okay, so these are on the list. Why? I ask because, for my example of Hole in the Wall, I didn t realize that it was mainly the dance that was out of
    Message 1 of 4 , Apr 22 10:25 AM
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      Christopher Mortika wrote:
      > Merry was kind enough to write:
      >
      >> Would anyone be kind enough to contribute to a thread detailing (and
      >> later aggregating), past and present which songs are faux pas, to what
      >> degree, and some idea of why and how the populace (and the Laurels) have
      >> handled it.
      >>
      >
      > People will probably list their favorite examples of out-of-period
      > dances. And it's a good thing, I think, to *know* what's
      > out-of-period, as well as to know what dances and dance styles are
      > in-period, and from where, and from what century. All well and good.
      >
      > (My list? I'm just a musician. If the dancers request Postie's Jig
      > or Troika or whatever, I'll see what I can do.)
      >
      Okay, so these are on the list. Why? I ask because, for my example of
      Hole in the Wall, I didn't realize that it was mainly the dance that was
      out of period and that the music (Playford, The Dancing Master 1651-1728
      yr 1695/1697) was less the issue, though still an issue none the less.
      I thought it was the music that was the big issue but only learned now
      years later at supper after Bellewode that it was the choreography that
      was the main offender. I'd like to be able to discuss legitimate
      reasons when someone asks me why we do or don't do a particular dance
      any more. I realize I'll never be an expert, but I will at least be
      able to say that, 'I heard that it was because this and that, and that
      many Laurels have tried to replace it with this and that which doesn't
      suffer from those problems.'

      > But. m'lord, please. I don't think it's profitable to make people
      > contentious or defensive. I've seen, too often, some people take up
      > some sort of authenticity crusade in dance. It has, without fail,
      > gotten people riled up, and hurt feelings.
      >
      Ah, but you see, I don't wish this to be contentious. Indeed quite the
      opposite. I am trying to avoid situations whereby Merry must open his
      mouth and insert his foot after having set off some person or another on
      some subject that I didn't know was a touchy subject. A list of dos and
      don'ts if you will. This is an surgical attempt to rectify a
      cranial-rectal inversion that Merry has suffered from for some years.

      As to the rest. Good grief. Not only was it spot-on in-character for
      each person, but probably the best and most humorous attempt I've seen
      someone make. I can only guess at how much time it took to compose all
      that, even if it was work put in many years ago.

      // Merry alt.who.misses.usenet.die.die.die.sigh.its.dead


      [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
    • Catherine Dean
      A voice from Calontir past rears her ugly (cute?) head. (For those of you who don t know me, I got my start dancing in Calontir about 10 years ago, and have
      Message 2 of 4 , Apr 22 11:24 AM
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        A voice from Calontir past rears her ugly (cute?) head.

        (For those of you who don't know me, I got my start dancing in Calontir
        about 10 years ago, and have since moved on to Atlantia and am closely
        connected with the Cynnabar group in the Midrealm, who put on Terpsichore at
        the Tower, the event mentioned earlier. I've also edited the Letter of
        Dance for the past 6 years, although I'm about to pass the torch on to a new
        editor. I'm mostly inactive in the SCA now, but am closely involved with
        the historical dance field in general and can still be found teaching at
        Terps and at Pennsic on a more-or-less yearly basis.)

        Quoth Merry: "Okay, so these are on the list. Why? I ask because, for my
        example of
        Hole in the Wall, I didn't realize that it was mainly the dance that was
        out of period and that the music (Playford, The Dancing Master 1651-1728
        yr 1695/1697) was less the issue, though still an issue none the less.
        I thought it was the music that was the big issue but only learned now
        years later at supper after Bellewode that it was the choreography that
        was the main offender. I'd like to be able to discuss legitimate
        reasons when someone asks me why we do or don't do a particular dance
        any more. "

        Actually, it's really both. Feel free to contact me off list and I'd be
        happy to go into more detail.

        In general, though, the dances which generally cause the most controvercy
        are those that are either a) historical, but not to the SCA period (defined
        here as pre-1600) or b) modern with little to no resemblence to period
        dances. Rarely have I heard it argued that we should do dances like Road to
        the Isles, Postie's Jig, Hole in the Wall, Troika, Korobushka, etc. because
        they are a reasonable attempt at pre-17th century dance. Anyone who uses
        that type of argument could be quickly dispelled by cold hard facts (the do
        not, in fact, bear much resemblance at all to known types of pre-17th
        century dance).

        Rather, the arguments are more emotional, based on what is fun and what is
        tradition and, at the heart of it all, what the SCA is all about.
        Ultimately the two sides of this debate are arguing right straight past each
        other ("but it's fun, and we're here to have fun" or "we're an organization
        with our own history, and this is traditional for us" vs. "but it's not
        period, and we're here to reconstruct a specific period in the past")


        --
        Catherine E. Dean
        Historically Inspired Designs
        Handmade Jewelry and Accessories for History Lovers
        http://www.historicallyinspired.com


        [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
      • Catherine Dean
        OOps, sorry, didn t mean to hit send so quickly. Here is the full response: A voice from Calontir past rears her ugly (cute?) head. (For those of you who
        Message 3 of 4 , Apr 22 12:01 PM
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          OOps, sorry, didn't mean to hit "send" so quickly.

          Here is the full response:

          A voice from Calontir past rears her ugly (cute?) head.

          (For those of you who don't know me, I got my start dancing in Calontir
          about 10 years ago, and have since moved on to Atlantia. I am closely
          connected with the Cynnabar group in the Midrealm, who put on Terpsichore at
          the Tower, the event mentioned earlier. I've also edited the Letter of
          Dance for the past 6 years, although I'm about to pass the torch on to a new
          editor. I'm mostly inactive in the SCA now, but am closely involved with
          the historical dance field in general and can still be found teaching at
          Terps and at Pennsic on a more-or-less yearly basis.)

          Quoth Merry: "Okay, so these are on the list. Why? I ask because, for my
          example of
          Hole in the Wall, I didn't realize that it was mainly the dance that was
          out of period and that the music (Playford, The Dancing Master 1651-1728
          yr 1695/1697) was less the issue, though still an issue none the less.
          I thought it was the music that was the big issue but only learned now
          years later at supper after Bellewode that it was the choreography that
          was the main offender. I'd like to be able to discuss legitimate
          reasons when someone asks me why we do or don't do a particular dance
          any more. "

          Actually, it's really both. Feel free to contact me off list and I'd be
          happy to go into more detail on Hole in the Wall or any other dance you're
          curious about.

          Since you asked, Postie's Jig is a modern Irish Country-type
          dance choreographed by Roy Clowes around 1970. In general, even the
          historical Irish Country Dances (Moneymusk, etc.) are really too late to be
          considered pre-1700 in style. The form in general seems to have taken shape
          in the late 18th and early 19th centuries, and is stylistically very very
          similar to English Regency-era country dances.

          Troika is a a Russian folk dance, but with no real stylistic ties pre-19th
          century. I believe the version done in the SCA was adopted from the
          International Folk Dance circuit in the 1970s, and may have been modified
          since then by us.

          In general, the dances which generally cause the most controvercy are those
          that are either a) historical, but not to the SCA period (defined here as
          pre-1600), like Troika or b) modern with little to no resemblence to period
          dances, like Postie's. Rarely have I heard it argued that we should do
          dances like Road to the Isles, Postie's Jig, Hole in the Wall, Troika,
          Korobushka, etc. because they are a reasonable attempt at pre-17th century
          dance. Anyone who uses that type of argument could be quickly dispelled by
          cold hard facts (they do not, in fact, bear much resemblance at all to known
          types of pre-17th century dance).

          Rather, the arguments are more emotional, based on what is fun and what is
          tradition and, at the heart of it all, what the SCA is all about.
          Ultimately the two sides of this debate are arguing right straight past each
          other ("but it's fun, and we're here to have fun" or "we're an organization
          with our own history, and this is traditional for us" vs. "but it's not
          period, and we're here to reconstruct a specific period in the past"). In
          that kind of situation *not* to have miscommunication and hurt feelings
          would be amazing.

          To get to Tsire's question about how to answer questions about the decision
          to not teach post-period dances or modern choreographies in an SCA-setting,
          it's definitely a challenge. Atlantia is, in many ways, similar to
          Calontir. We have our "all period dance, all the time" contingent and then
          another group of folks who believe that all dancing has its place in the
          SCA. We've had nasty politics, hurt feelings, pointless discussions
          aplenty!

          I have solved that situation for myself by carefully controlling when and
          how I teach dance. I have actively purged my folders of cds of dances that
          I don't care to teach (and I should say that my no-teach list is highly
          personal and non-necessarily limited to out of period things); when I teach
          a class, I always set the agenda and choose which dances to teach myself; I
          never run pickup dance (rather, if I'm asked to run dance, I specifically
          schedule the dances to be taught); when I run a ball I very carefully craft
          it to be fun, well balanced, and filled with crowd pleasing dances that I
          feel comfortable teaching; if there is time at the end for requests, I take
          them all, but I'm not necessarily egalitarian in choosing which ones to
          present to the musicians (what is the point of recreating the Renaissance,
          if we don't get to behave a bit autocratic sometimes). In general I try to
          focus on what I *will* teach rather than what I *won't*, keeping the
          discussion positive and focused. No teacher teaches every dance--we all
          have our own subset that we know and are comfortable enough with to teach,
          or like enough to include in a ball list or class set.

          When I'm in a situation where a dance is being danced that I don't care to
          participate in, I generally try to sit it out quietly. That is the choice
          of the organizer of that event, and I would expect him/her to respect me if
          I were in his/her place, too. I've often found that leading by example
          works wonders. Eventually if the charismatic, talented dancers are seen to
          always sit out a particular dance, it has an effect.

          Ultimately, if pressed (and this has happened--ironically from musicians
          rather than dancers) about why I'm not including certain dances in an
          evening event, I say that it was my choice to determine what was to be
          danced (having been asked by the organizers of the event to do so) and that
          that was just how it was going to be that day. I'm always happy to discuss
          the reasons behind my choices, but prefer to do that privately rather than
          in public, on the dance floor.

          Katherine
          On Tue, Apr 22, 2008 at 2:24 PM, Catherine Dean <catherinedean@...>
          wrote:

          > A voice from Calontir past rears her ugly (cute?) head.
          >
          > (For those of you who don't know me, I got my start dancing in Calontir
          > about 10 years ago, and have since moved on to Atlantia and am closely
          > connected with the Cynnabar group in the Midrealm, who put on Terpsichore at
          > the Tower, the event mentioned earlier. I've also edited the Letter of
          > Dance for the past 6 years, although I'm about to pass the torch on to a new
          > editor. I'm mostly inactive in the SCA now, but am closely involved with
          > the historical dance field in general and can still be found teaching at
          > Terps and at Pennsic on a more-or-less yearly basis.)
          >
          > Quoth Merry: "Okay, so these are on the list. Why? I ask because, for my
          > example of
          > Hole in the Wall, I didn't realize that it was mainly the dance that was
          > out of period and that the music (Playford, The Dancing Master 1651-1728
          > yr 1695/1697) was less the issue, though still an issue none the less.
          > I thought it was the music that was the big issue but only learned now
          > years later at supper after Bellewode that it was the choreography that
          > was the main offender. I'd like to be able to discuss legitimate
          > reasons when someone asks me why we do or don't do a particular dance
          > any more. "
          >
          > Actually, it's really both. Feel free to contact me off list and I'd be
          > happy to go into more detail.
          >
          > In general, though, the dances which generally cause the most controvercy
          > are those that are either a) historical, but not to the SCA period (defined
          > here as pre-1600) or b) modern with little to no resemblence to period
          > dances. Rarely have I heard it argued that we should do dances like Road to
          > the Isles, Postie's Jig, Hole in the Wall, Troika, Korobushka, etc. because
          > they are a reasonable attempt at pre-17th century dance. Anyone who uses
          > that type of argument could be quickly dispelled by cold hard facts (the do
          > not, in fact, bear much resemblance at all to known types of pre-17th
          > century dance).
          >
          > Rather, the arguments are more emotional, based on what is fun and what is
          > tradition and, at the heart of it all, what the SCA is all about.
          > Ultimately the two sides of this debate are arguing right straight past each
          > other ("but it's fun, and we're here to have fun" or "we're an organization
          > with our own history, and this is traditional for us" vs. "but it's not
          > period, and we're here to reconstruct a specific period in the past")
          >
          >
          > --
          > Catherine E. Dean
          > Historically Inspired Designs
          > Handmade Jewelry and Accessories for History Lovers
          > http://www.historicallyinspired.com
          >



          --
          Catherine E. Dean
          Historically Inspired Designs
          Handmade Jewelry and Accessories for History Lovers
          http://www.historicallyinspired.com


          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
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