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Question about Scotland the Brave.

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  • 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
    I ve been monitoring a bit of a debate about period dances on another list and it reminded me to ask a question I ve had for a long while regarding this
    Message 1 of 2 , Mar 28, 2008
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      I've been monitoring a bit of a debate about period dances on another
      list and it reminded me to ask a question I've had for a long while
      regarding this tune/dance. People keep telling me that the tune itself
      is ancient and that the words and title are the modern elements of the
      thing (I haven't the foggiest notion where the dance... i.e., the steps
      and such fall in this realm), and I've maintained for many years that
      the tune and name both cannot be documented back previous to the 20th
      century (or possibly the 19th on the same reasoning that print and
      publishing always follows composition by some period of variable duration).

      I included the research I found many years ago when I notated the
      version our band uses here:
      http://bcfdpipesanddrums.com/tunes/ScotlandTheBrave.pdf The citing of
      it as being part of several traditions suggests that it may have perhaps
      appeared in tradition long before appearing in print, but not in any
      conclusive way as it could have just as easily come to these traditions
      as a modern tune.

      If this information is incorrect, I'd like to update both the music on
      that site and my own mind.

      It's subtitled on my music as "Road to the Isles". Is this an
      alternative name, or perhaps the name of the dance itself?

      Also wondering... is this tune in the public domain? I assume by the
      dates listed in my research that it is, but I've been learning _not_ to
      assume, but to ask.

      While the tune itself is not so very Tin Pan Alley-esque, the lyric
      certainly is (though many date TPA as ending before 1950), and as such
      I've always had a very strong dislike for the tune only because having
      TPA songs figure so prominently in the music the pipe band is expected
      to play irritates me on some deep level (I need to get over it). Songs
      such as Danny Boy, Flower of Scotland, and Mull of Kintyre (yes... not
      TPA, but still.... I actually ran across music that listed this tune,
      composed in 1977/1978 by His Nibs, Master Paul McCartney that was listed
      as "Traditional".... oh the travails of music copyright.... and folks
      trying to get around it either through ignorance or design)

      Thanks in advance.

      --

      // Merry

      ----------
      'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
      Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
      Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
      http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
      ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....

      'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
      pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
    • Evelyn Alden
      To the best of my knowledge, your information on Scotland the Brave is correct. Road to the Isles is a different song/tune/dance,
      Message 2 of 2 , Mar 28, 2008
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        To the best of my knowledge, your information on Scotland the Brave is
        correct.

        Road to the Isles is a different song/tune/dance,
        http://www.rampantscotland.com/songs/blsongs_road.htm for lyrics
        http://www.mudcat.org/thread.cfm?threadid=13906#116925
        "Rise Up Singing says "Road to the Isles" has words by Kenneth MacLeod
        and music by Patuffa Kennedy-Fraser and Marjorie Kennedy-Fraser, from
        a book by Marjorie Kennedy Fraser called Songs of the Hebrides with
        the 1917 copyright renewed in 1944 by Boosey & Hawkes, Inc. The
        database makes things clearer by saying the song was collected and
        translated by Kennedy-Fraser and MacLeod."

        To the best of my knowledge (and it's gotta be 20 years since I last
        checked) there is no mundane folk dance called Scotland the Brave.
        The dance we do is an SCA creation (and if I have written down
        where/when/who created it, I don't have it here) that used elements of
        Road to the Isles and Gai Gordans (spelling???)
        http://www.evansvillefolkdancers.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderfiles/roadtotheislesdn.pdf
        is the dance Road to the Isles the way I learned it in V'tavia.

        You will continually run into the idea the if something is
        "traditional" it must be period. All you can do is ask for a
        reference, perhaps try to point out the problems with this view, and
        never get in an online argument about this point :-) I've edited
        this post for quite a while, and still can't come up with a polite
        defense for the opposition ;-)

        "Ancient" is apparently code for "we want to use it but we can't document it"

        Heck, bransles are probably much older than Arbeau, but all we can say
        for sure is that he describes the dances as being done in his youth,
        so maybe 30-40 years earlier than the book was published. As much as
        I'd like they still don't qualify as "medieval dances". Much less
        "ancient dances".

        katriana
        apparently grumpy


        On Fri, Mar 28, 2008 at 2:26 AM, 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder
        Lutre <Merry@...> wrote:
        >
        > I've been monitoring a bit of a debate about period dances on another
        > list and it reminded me to ask a question I've had for a long while
        > regarding this tune/dance. People keep telling me that the tune itself
        > is ancient and that the words and title are the modern elements of the
        > thing (I haven't the foggiest notion where the dance... i.e., the steps
        > and such fall in this realm), and I've maintained for many years that
        > the tune and name both cannot be documented back previous to the 20th
        > century (or possibly the 19th on the same reasoning that print and
        > publishing always follows composition by some period of variable duration).
        >
        > I included the research I found many years ago when I notated the
        > version our band uses here:
        > http://bcfdpipesanddrums.com/tunes/ScotlandTheBrave.pdf The citing of
        > it as being part of several traditions suggests that it may have perhaps
        > appeared in tradition long before appearing in print, but not in any
        > conclusive way as it could have just as easily come to these traditions
        > as a modern tune.
        >
        > If this information is incorrect, I'd like to update both the music on
        > that site and my own mind.
        >
        > It's subtitled on my music as "Road to the Isles". Is this an
        > alternative name, or perhaps the name of the dance itself?
        >
        > Also wondering... is this tune in the public domain? I assume by the
        > dates listed in my research that it is, but I've been learning _not_ to
        > assume, but to ask.
        >
        > While the tune itself is not so very Tin Pan Alley-esque, the lyric
        > certainly is (though many date TPA as ending before 1950), and as such
        > I've always had a very strong dislike for the tune only because having
        > TPA songs figure so prominently in the music the pipe band is expected
        > to play irritates me on some deep level (I need to get over it). Songs
        > such as Danny Boy, Flower of Scotland, and Mull of Kintyre (yes... not
        > TPA, but still.... I actually ran across music that listed this tune,
        > composed in 1977/1978 by His Nibs, Master Paul McCartney that was listed
        > as "Traditional".... oh the travails of music copyright.... and folks
        > trying to get around it either through ignorance or design)
        >
        > Thanks in advance.
        >
        > --
        >
        > // Merry
        >
        > ----------
        > 'Merry' Toirdhealbhach Mirywoder Lutre
        > Shire of Standing Stones; Formerly: Philippe Sebastian LeLutre
        > Christian M. Cepel --- 573.999.2370 --- Columbia, MO
        > http://Thistledowne.org/ http://ShireOfStandingStones.org/
        > ICQ:12384980 YIM/AOL:Bramblethorne MSN:Merry@ShireOfS.....
        >
        > 'Toirdhealbhach' anglicized Tirloughe (1576), modernly 'Turlough',
        > pronounced 'TIR' or 'TUR' + 'low', 'logh', 'lock', or 'loch'
        >
        >
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