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RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

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  • Bill Morris
    Look, now you ve pressed one of My buttons. If we dismiss everything which isn t well documented, then we ll have to toss out much of the Inns of court, the
    Message 1 of 13 , Feb 27 7:03 PM
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      Look, now you've pressed one of My buttons.

      If we dismiss everything which isn't well documented, then we'll have to
      toss out much of the Inns of court, the early Burgundian, and even Arbeau.
      There are so many ambiguities in the primary sources that many of our dances
      are at best wild guesses. As far as I know, none of our sources were
      intended to provide authoritative instruction to students without the aid of
      teachers and a living tradition. Even Playford has more then a few sticky
      points, and it blows away most of the other sources.

      On a more philosophical note, and just as a personal preference. I like to
      see people with Scandinavian persona's attempting to do the best
      reconstruction we can do of Scandi dancing, etc. We know that there was
      dancing during the time of the Icelandic family sagas. And we're pretty
      sure that it didn't bear much resemblance to Negri and Caroso. So if you're
      trying to avoid in-authenticity...

      Also I refuse to just give up. If we know that 12th century Bohemians
      danced at harvest festivals, then there must space in the SCA for the best
      available re-creations of 12th century Bohemian dance. Even if the best
      documentation would make a hippopotamus gag.

      Another more subtle problem we all face is that we are trying to re-create
      mostly social dance forms, not performance traditions. If, for instance, we
      are re-creating an authentic Elizabethan feast with dancing, then the period
      thing is for the dancing to be done by the populace, not by a small group
      that is specially trained and rehearsed. Hasapikos might very well be done
      at a medieval Greek wedding. But it would be done by the wedding guests,
      not by performers.

      Mableth
    • Bill Morris
      I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance. My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early 19th century
      Message 2 of 13 , Feb 27 7:03 PM
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        I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance.

        My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early
        19th century according to some references of my Dad's), then it would be
        preferable to do something that is at least _possibly_ compatible with
        period practice, instead of the English Country dance version which is about
        as period as a Monty Python sketch.

        There is a big difference between good and bad. However there is also a big
        difference between bad and worse.

        Mableth



        -----Original Message-----
        From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]
        On Behalf Of Tsire Tuzevo
        Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:00 AM
        To: calontirdance@yahoogroups.com
        Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?

        CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF
        DANCE DOOM!

        "Traditional" undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well,
        undocumented to just about the same degree. Attempting to create a case for
        legitimacy for this seriously out of period dance by introducing 'Slavic
        Traditional' steps goes counter to the goal of enhancing the living history
        of our period through dance. This is frustrating and muddles the fun vs
        period false argument that I constantly hear.
        It is possible that I'm beating a dead horse uphill both ways in the snow
        here. If that is the case we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next
        dance event because it certainly is fun and I've certainly been doing that a
        long time too. In my head, the out of period Korobushka, Slavic steps or no,
        is equally the outlier. I'm in no way upset at Mableth, he's just making a
        suggestion. I'm just frustrated that this is even still a viable idea in SCA
        dance with all the researchable, documentable, knock-your-socks-off dancing
        available.

        Thanks for indulging me in my Big Red Button Rant Folks - Now back to your
        regularly scheduled DanceList.
        Tsire
      • Tsire Tuzevo
        Mableth, I admire your zeal and your goals. Generally what I m talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka s music is
        Message 3 of 13 , Feb 28 8:06 AM
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          Mableth,

          I admire your zeal and your goals.

          Generally what I'm talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka's music is known and documented to the early 19th century. This should not get a pass, especially with the 'fun' or 'traditional' arguments. I'll make and attempt on Orchesographie, Noblita, and other in-period primary sources for this reason as well. They are known and documented to the time period rather than definitively outside it.
          As for your notes about who's dancing what where - who's English dinner are we at? If it's peasantry you may be correct, if it's the court and nobles ( as we all attempt to be) then late in our period we'd be dong imported Italian dances. Evidence of dance classes being a strong part of the noble culture in England is quite easy to find. You may want to check up on the assertion that the English weren't doing performance dance. Also Check Orchesographie for performance dance from France and Caroso, Dominico and Negri for performance dance from a similar time frame in Italy. Heck check the Nuremberg manuscripts too, there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was done. It has to be done to be complained about. Much like our beloved and reviled Korobushka.



          Katriona -

          Let me see a tripple step into an aerial flip in Italian steps - Bring it on baby! Bring it on!

          Tsire


          _________________________________________________________________
          Discover the new Windows Vista
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          [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
        • Rowan
          SNIP there s a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and
          Message 4 of 13 , Feb 28 1:04 PM
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            SNIP
            there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
            dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
            dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
            done. It has to be done to be complained about.
            SNIP

            I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
            for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
            must have been popular! ;)

            HL Rowan Houndskeeper
            (Is that better Conna? :)
            Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
            rowan@...

            "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
            dark to read." - Groucho Marx


            [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
          • Christian M. Cepel
            Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don t want those evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It s a good idea to keep records.
            Message 5 of 13 , Feb 28 1:14 PM
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              Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don't want those
              evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It's a good idea to
              keep records. Dancing minions of Satan!

              Rowan wrote:
              > SNIP
              > there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
              > dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
              > dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
              > done. It has to be done to be complained about.
              > SNIP
              >
              > I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
              > for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
              > must have been popular! ;)
              >
              > HL Rowan Houndskeeper
              > (Is that better Conna? :)
              > Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
              > rowan@...
              >
              > "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
              > dark to read." - Groucho Marx
              >
              >
              > [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >
              > Yahoo! Groups Links
              >
              >
              >
              >
              >

              --
              Christian M. Cepel - Thistledowne Productions - http://thistledowne.org
              Computer Support Specialist, Sr. - University of Missouri - Columbia
              College of Education - School of Info Science & Learning Technologies
              VRCbd, KidTools & StrategyTools Support Systems Projects, and Truman,
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