Re: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?
- Tsire Tuzevo wrote:
> we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next dance event because itcertainly is fun
> and I've certainly been doing that a long time too.Tsire, my line always used to be "well, the Hustle and the Bunny Hop are..."
I said that once too often at Pennsic, and, well... Did you know you can
do the Bunny Hop with Italian Dance Steps?
keeper of odd stuff
- Look, now you've pressed one of My buttons.
If we dismiss everything which isn't well documented, then we'll have to
toss out much of the Inns of court, the early Burgundian, and even Arbeau.
There are so many ambiguities in the primary sources that many of our dances
are at best wild guesses. As far as I know, none of our sources were
intended to provide authoritative instruction to students without the aid of
teachers and a living tradition. Even Playford has more then a few sticky
points, and it blows away most of the other sources.
On a more philosophical note, and just as a personal preference. I like to
see people with Scandinavian persona's attempting to do the best
reconstruction we can do of Scandi dancing, etc. We know that there was
dancing during the time of the Icelandic family sagas. And we're pretty
sure that it didn't bear much resemblance to Negri and Caroso. So if you're
trying to avoid in-authenticity...
Also I refuse to just give up. If we know that 12th century Bohemians
danced at harvest festivals, then there must space in the SCA for the best
available re-creations of 12th century Bohemian dance. Even if the best
documentation would make a hippopotamus gag.
Another more subtle problem we all face is that we are trying to re-create
mostly social dance forms, not performance traditions. If, for instance, we
are re-creating an authentic Elizabethan feast with dancing, then the period
thing is for the dancing to be done by the populace, not by a small group
that is specially trained and rehearsed. Hasapikos might very well be done
at a medieval Greek wedding. But it would be done by the wedding guests,
not by performers.
- I agree that, if possible, we would prefer to use period dance.
My point was that if we _must_ have Korbushka (tune documentable to early
19th century according to some references of my Dad's), then it would be
preferable to do something that is at least _possibly_ compatible with
period practice, instead of the English Country dance version which is about
as period as a Monty Python sketch.
There is a big difference between good and bad. However there is also a big
difference between bad and worse.
From: CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com [mailto:CalontirDance@yahoogroups.com]
On Behalf Of Tsire Tuzevo
Sent: Tuesday, February 27, 2007 9:00 AM
Subject: RE: [CalontirDance] Starting tempo for Korobushka?
CAUTION: Mableth has inadvertently hit one of Tsire's BIG RED BUTTONS OF
"Traditional" undocumented vs broadway legend undocumented is, well,
undocumented to just about the same degree. Attempting to create a case for
legitimacy for this seriously out of period dance by introducing 'Slavic
Traditional' steps goes counter to the goal of enhancing the living history
of our period through dance. This is frustrating and muddles the fun vs
period false argument that I constantly hear.
It is possible that I'm beating a dead horse uphill both ways in the snow
here. If that is the case we can add "traditional" Lindy Hop to our next
dance event because it certainly is fun and I've certainly been doing that a
long time too. In my head, the out of period Korobushka, Slavic steps or no,
is equally the outlier. I'm in no way upset at Mableth, he's just making a
suggestion. I'm just frustrated that this is even still a viable idea in SCA
dance with all the researchable, documentable, knock-your-socks-off dancing
Thanks for indulging me in my Big Red Button Rant Folks - Now back to your
regularly scheduled DanceList.
I admire your zeal and your goals.
Generally what I'm talking about here is not doing the known documented out of period things. Korobushka's music is known and documented to the early 19th century. This should not get a pass, especially with the 'fun' or 'traditional' arguments. I'll make and attempt on Orchesographie, Noblita, and other in-period primary sources for this reason as well. They are known and documented to the time period rather than definitively outside it.
As for your notes about who's dancing what where - who's English dinner are we at? If it's peasantry you may be correct, if it's the court and nobles ( as we all attempt to be) then late in our period we'd be dong imported Italian dances. Evidence of dance classes being a strong part of the noble culture in England is quite easy to find. You may want to check up on the assertion that the English weren't doing performance dance. Also Check Orchesographie for performance dance from France and Caroso, Dominico and Negri for performance dance from a similar time frame in Italy. Heck check the Nuremberg manuscripts too, there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was done. It has to be done to be complained about. Much like our beloved and reviled Korobushka.
Let me see a tripple step into an aerial flip in Italian steps - Bring it on baby! Bring it on!
Discover the new Windows Vista
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
done. It has to be done to be complained about.
I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
must have been popular! ;)
HL Rowan Houndskeeper
(Is that better Conna? :)
Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
"Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
dark to read." - Groucho Marx
[Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
- Did the Vatican keep records of excommunications? You don't want those
evil gits from sneaking back in by the back door... It's a good idea to
keep records. Dancing minions of Satan!
> there's a lovely set of confused reconstructions of italian and French
> dances in there as well as a treatise on how awful it is to dance Italian
> dance and be German. It's my favorite kind of evidence that something was
> done. It has to be done to be complained about.
> I always was partial to the church proscriptions and bans as the evidence
> for something being done. If the church says its a Sin then you know it
> must have been popular! ;)
> HL Rowan Houndskeeper
> (Is that better Conna? :)
> Barony of Three Rivers, Calontir
> "Outside of a dog, a book is man's best friend. Inside of a dog, it's too
> dark to read." - Groucho Marx
> [Non-text portions of this message have been removed]
> Yahoo! Groups Links
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